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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dunbartonshire => Topic started by: pettsy on Wednesday 26 July 06 17:38 BST (UK)
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I need some advice.
I am trying to find the marriage of John Munn born 1885 in Kilmaronock, and living in Old Kilpatrick in 1901.
All his siblings were born in Old Kilpatrick.
His four brothers were killed in WW1 John was the only son to survived, which is why I want to find out more about him and his family.
I tried looking on Scotland's People for his marriage.
I had two options, neither were him ???
What year and areas do you think I should search?
His parents were James Munn and Margaret McAulay, and were not name on the two certs I viewed.
Any ideas, I seem to be wasting all my credits on SP :-[
Thank You
Pettsy
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This is a bit of a tricky one, Pettsy, as you don't seem to have a wife's name or any certain place of marriage.
Have you tried variations of his name?
I think I would start with his death record, which would give a wife's name.
That is if he died in Scotland.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
Thank you for you reply.
I have no idea when he died, and if it was after 1930 I cannot search on SP.
I found two marriages in Dunbarton.
In Old Kilpatrick there were about 12-16.
If I had a rough idea when they would have married in those days, ie between 18-22, and as the war was on, would it be before or after ???
I have tried no variations of his name, but there were no too many Munn's in Scotland.
His father died in Scotland in 1945, where John died I am still trying to find out.
I need to visit Scotland again.
Pettsy
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You can search up to 1955 for deaths on SP.
I don't think that there is an easy way on this one - a hard slog, sadly :(
Gadget
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You can search up to 1955 for deaths on SP.
I don't think that there is an easy way on this one - a hard slog, sadly :(
Gadget
Thank you Gadget,
I just looked on SP.
Found four marriages in OK between 1900 and 1923.
For John Munn.
1907 Annie Abbott
1912 Minnie Reid Patterson
1919 Catherine McGowan
1919 Catherine Rodgers
It could be one of the Catherine, as I have seen an Obituary for a son who died in WW2.
I am off to check at CWGC now.
Pettsy ;)
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Just looked on the CWGC.
There was a Andrew Munn who died in 1940, age 21y.
Parents were John and Catherine Munn.
Could be them as his brother, my g grandfather was called Andrew.
Could have been there first born. I will have to buy more credits tomorrow.
Oh I can't wait now. :D
Pettsy
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Good Pettsy :) the two Catherine's look like you're next move - only 5 units each if you've already got the index ;)
See - it's not that difficult is it :D
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
I hope it's one of them, i'll find out later when I buy some more credits :D
I will let you know either way.
Pettsy
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Hi Gadget
I forget to let you know what happened :-\
The two Caroline's were the same person, she was a widow.
And she did not marry my John Munn.
I also checked the other two ladies, and it wasn't them either.
I looked for a death of John Munn from 1901 -1955 and one came up in the area the family lived, he was killed in WW1, France.
I hope this is not him, as it would mean all five brothers were killed oversea's in WW1.
We always thought he survived.
Pettsy
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Pettsy
I presume that the John Munn listed didn't have the correct parents.
Why do you think he survived? It might be worth putting a request on the armed forces board, just in case. There are some very knowledgeable researchers on that board - I've had some very good leads from them. There would at least be his WW1 medal cards.
Recap - Now what we have is a John Munn, b. circa 1885. parents - James Mun and Margaret McAulay. His other four brothers died in WW1 but you think that he survived. He may have married - but to whom and when and where.
Have you got him on the 1891 and 1901 censuses? This would give us some idea of a possible occupation/residence at the time of a possible marriage.
Local newspapers might also be of use - especially on men who went to war. have you tried the local libraries?
Enough for you to be going on with ...
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
Yes the wrong parents were listed for John.
I thought he survived the war, as I had help from the local history library, he said four of the brothers were killed in WW1.
I knew my great grandfather was as his medals are in the family, so we know his army number etc...
I have birth certs for all five brothers, and death certs for four who died in WW1 overseas.
I have nothing on John yet, but on SP I found a death for a John Munn, born 1885/6 killed 1917.
His parents will not be on the death cert, as they are not on the four brothers ??? and there is no image to view on SP.
I can send off for a cert, but not sure what it will tell me. ???
I have all the family on the 1891 and 1901 census, their mother died in 1906.
In 1901 the were all living at 44 NEW STREET, Old Kilpatrick, Duntocher, John was 15, he and Daniel worked with sewing machines (shuttle makers) so they would have worked at the Singers factory, as did my g grandfather before the war.
I am going to ask the local library again, and try clydebank.
I am sure if all five brothers were killed there would be something in the local paper regarding this.
Thank you for you help, you make it sound so easy ;)
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy
I notice that his father died 1945, you should be able to find an obituary for him in the local newspapers - it was a fairly widespread practice by then. This would give you an indication as to whether John was still alive.
Another though is that John could have married elsewhere in Scotland or even England if he enlisted during WW1. The Eng & Wales index won't tell you much at all though. It might be worth using up a few more units to check other John Munn marriages in Scotland.
Sorry - it's not easy - it's a hard slog :( but worthwhie in the end if you find him :)
Good Luck
Gadget
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I've just checked the WW1 medal cards. There are 6 John Munns who are listed as in Scottish Regiments.
The list can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/pnfpl
If you know which regiments his brother's served in, it might narrow down the search.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I have found where his father is buried, in a cemetery in Lochgilphead, he is buried alone, and the lair was owned by his daughter Margaret.
I have not looked for an obituary for him, so I will do that.
He was living in Risk St Home, before moving up to Lochgilphead.
He moved into an Asylum as he was senile towards the end (as stated on death cert)
If John did move to England, I will not find him until the 1921 census come out :o
I have tried looking at the medal cards, all the four brothers were in different regiments, and on their death, the CWGC states no parents, I added on my great grandfathers detail as I had his birth, death and obituary which they needed. I sent it to them and it was changed.
I hope to do the same with the other brothers, once Glasgow Evening Times is up dated at the Mitchell (end of Aug)
The brothers were Andrew Munn Royal Engineers (my g grandfather)
Walter Munn KOSB 1st Bn
Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 8th Bn
Highland Light Infantry 1st Bn
I did find a John who was killed in 1917, with the Cameron's.
He was born in 1885 like my John, and born in Kilmaronock, but on the Index it states Kilamrnock.
It could be a mistake, as Andrew's on had a mistake regarding area.
Thank you for all you help, and advice, I WILL NOT GIVE UP!!! ;)
I just wish the medal cards would list d.o.b
Pettsy
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That 1917 death looks a strong possibility, Pettsy.
If I were you I'd check out if there was another John Munn born in 1885 besides yours. If not, then sadly, he is likely to be yours.
Gadget
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Why didn't I think of that Gadget :-[
I will do that now.
Thank you.
Pettsy
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Hi Gadget
I just looked.
Ok there were no John Munn's born in Kilmarnock (Ayr)
Only one in Kilmaronock (Dunbarton)
I did 3 years either side, so it seems it is our John and the memorial made a mistake and wrote Kilmarnock instead of Kilmaronock (which is no longer on the map)
Thank you, I think we have sorted it out.
Regards
Pettsy ;)
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So poor John died then.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
Here is an update.
I contacted Dunbarton local history library with my find.
The man agrees it is most likely a mistake on the soldiers who died cd.
They put place of birth a Kilmarnock, instead of Kilmaronock.
I have since received photo's of John Munn's memorial in Tyne Cot Cemetery, Belgium.
I have photo's of all four, that just leaves Baghdad, but I would think the head stone would be rubble now, going by the photo's I have seen of Basra cemetery.
Clydebank library looked at the index for the war years, no mention of the five brothers being killed ???
Not sure where to look now.
I am awaiting a reply regarding James Munn, their father.
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy
Glad you're getting there :)
Like you, I don't think that the Baghdad monument will have survived but you could try.
Hope you get more info on James. I have managed to get quite a few obits of my lot and, when they list mourners and potted life stories, they are a great source.
Good luck
Gadget :)
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Hi Gadget
I have e mailed for info on their mother, Margaret Munn nee McAulay's obituary too.
It is a grave in Baghdad, not a memorial, which makes it worst in a way, God only knows what the locals would do to the grave/headstone >:(
I have seen photo's on a war website, and the stones are smashed up, RUBBLE :'( the Blackwatch were at Basra cemetery trying to repair and make good, and they ere surprised to see the memorial still standinf with names of Black Watch soldiers on (WW1)
Still 4 out of 5 photo's is not too bad.
If you are after grave or memorial pic's, have a look at the great war forum.
Pettsy
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No obituary for their mother, as the library told me they never done them for women in 1906, unless they were rich and upper class.
Cannot find one for James Munn either, who died in 1945 ???
Maybe I will have to contact Lochgilphead Library.
I have decided to hve a look on SP to see if any of the other three brothers were married.
Pettsy
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It shows that you should never give up. Today I decided to have a look on SP for a birth and death cert, while there and as I had some spare credits I looked for a John Munn on the 1911 Census, I found him, John Munn 26, with his wife Cecilia 37, and daughter Cecilia 1 living in Glasgow. I looked up their marriage certificate to check it was them, and it was, they were married in 1908. Now I need to find out if they had any more children before John was killed in WW1 and what happened to his wife and daughter.
John was a Restaurateur.