RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: MickMac on Saturday 05 August 06 10:14 BST (UK)
-
My Great Granfather's name was James Horsley (see below) Born 1890 in Melbourne, Derbyshire.
His Fathers name was John Horsley, born 1867 also in Melbourne Derbyshire. This is all on the 1891 and 1901 census's.
Now the mystery - On the 1871 census, I find John Horsley of Melbourne Born 1867 describes as the son of a servant, Sarah Ann Pass (unmarried) . On the 1881 he's named as John Pass, Scholar. In both cases, he's living in the houshold of Ann Horsley, the widow of James Horsley.
Am I mixing up my John Horsley's or could John Pass and John Horsley be the same person?
Mick
-
Hi Mick
Have you found a birth registration in one or both names? You may need a certificate to resolve the issue. Without any other information, it could appear that John born 1867 may be the son of Sarah Ann Pass and James Horsley - the couple not being married.
Trish
-
Hi Mick,
On the 1871, the actual page lists Sarah Ann PASS, and then underneath her, John "do", meaning his surname is PASS as well. The transcription I checked had him as John HORSLEY, which is incorrect.
Hope that helps
Prue
-
There is a birth for a John Pass in Shardlow district - which includes Melbourne - in Jun Qtr 1866 and a John Thomas Pass in Mar Qtr 1868 (same district). These are from FreeBDM
There is nothing on FreeBDM for John Horsley, in 1867 +/- 2 years - FreeBDM is virtually complete for 1866/67 but not 100%. 1868 is less than 50% complete. You could search the complete images for these years to check for other possibilities.
Trish
-
Redundant post deleted and slow keyboard replaced :D
-
Noting what Prue has said - they may be two different people, but you will need to find a birth record in the name of Horsely to prove this. Whether the certificate for the name Pass would include the father? I do not know the rules in England - although I may have read if the father consents/is present he may be on the certificate. Someone else may have better information on this.
Trish
PS Scropton - you gave more details that I did - put it back ;D ;D ;D
-
Thanks for all the help. I've been looking through the Parish records and everything. I can't find John Horsley born Melbourne 1867 anywhere. Only John Pass. John Pass doesn't appear after 1881 and he was living in the Horsley household.
I probably need a birth certificate. My working hypothesis is that Sarah Pass was the servant of Ann Horsley who had a son, William of a similar age to Sarah.
The illegitimate child John could be the son of William Horsley and later he adopted his fathers name.
I've been caught out by guesses before however ;D
-
Hi Mick
The marriage certificate for John may give a first name for his father - but whether it would be correct?
good luck with the search
Trish
-
I've found marriage Records for John Thomas Pass and John Pass.
JT Pass married Agnes and is on the 1891 census.
John Pass married Alice Collier in 1885. I can't find John and Alice Pass on the 1891 Census but I can find John and Alice Horsley!
I can find a birth registration for Ethel Maud Pass in late 1885 and John & Alice's eldest daughter is called ... Ethel Maud.
I think I need some birth and marriage certificates. does anyone know if Marriage certificates from that era had parental details on them?
-
Hi MM - yes, you s h o u l d get Father's names and occupations - if its blank, fear the worst !
I think your earlier theory may be sound too.
-
Hi Mick :)
Your theory sounds more plausible now that we have those other bits of info...the marriage certs from that time (same as now) show only the father's name and occupation. Nothing about the mother, though :(
Prue
-
a birth cert of one of John and Alice children will give her maiden name .... if its Collier then you've cracked it ?
-
I'll go for Great Grandads as I have his exact date of birth etc.
Thanks for all the help folks. I'll let you know the outcome.
Got a few other mysteries like this when I have the time. :)
-
Hi
Your G. Grandfather - James Horsley was actually Registered:-
Shardlow March Quarter 1890 7b 455
James Horsley Pass.
Think you will probably find that Sarah Ann Pass had an illegitimate child.
The father could have been either James Horsley, husband of Ann or
William Horsley son of Ann.
James Horsley appears to have died Shardlow Dec Q 1870 7b 242 age 50.
John Horsley names his son James is this a clue?
Have you checked the Bastarday Records held at Matlock Derbyshire?
There are some on this site, not your Pass though:-
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~spire/Yesterday/InformationPages.htm
You could also look for a Will of James Horsley, he may have left provision
for John Pass.
Spendlove
-
Thanks for the info spendlove.
What on earth are Bastarday records? :o (although I can guess from their name. How would you go about seeing them?
My money is on William being the father and John naming his son after his Grandmothers husband James because of his kindness - Be nice if that was true.
William went on to marry and have children as well.
Looks as if John changed his name around 1890. I woner why? also - anybody got any idea what the legality was of changing your name at that time? I have another ancestor around the same time period who changed his name for a while.
Mick
-
Unfortunately Bastardy Records as exactly what they say.
They are records of the Overseers of the Poor, who ensured that Fathers
paid maintenance to their illegitimate children and so were not a burden
on the Parish.
Many are not recorded because the Father concerned chose to pay/keep
their illegitimate children but those who did not pay could be made to pay.
For Derbyshire the records are kept at the County Record Office, Matlock.
The site I gave in last post will explain, and you can see actual cases.
Have you found the birth registration for Francis J. Horsley born
abt 1894 recorded as being born Nottingham? Just wondered if they
were still using Pass or Horsley.
Spendlove.
-
sorry posted twice.
-
Francis is a Horsley rather than Pass. I mentioned this in passing to my mother who has the whole Horsley family up in arms about this! ;D
-
You could also look for a Will of James Horsley, he may have left provision
for John Pass.
Spendlove
There is a will for a James Horsley, Melbourne, probate granted 1871. Worth a look I would think - info from http://www.wirksworth.org.uk
-
Thanks Gardner - Is that the correct link? It seems to be for a Wirksworth site which is quite a long way from Melbourne?
Mick
-
Hi Mick,
The Wirksworth site focuses mostly on Wirksworth and surrounds but also has more general Derbyshire information. IT's a fantastic site for anyone with Derbyshire relatives (like me!)
Here is a link to the Wills information:
http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/FRONTPAG.htm#47
Prue
-
Forgive an unwarranted intrusion and some trivialities:
This is a fascinating exchange. Congratulations to all participants. This feels like the best of chatroom stuff. And, yes, John Palmer's Wirksworth site is a national treasure.
As for Mickmac's other passing query, as far as I undertand, all that is required in English law is a public statement of identity: the "As from today, my name is Vlad Drakula" kind of thing. I gather that solicitors earned (and earn) the odd crust thereby. By the way, am I alone in thinking "commissioner for oaths" is prone to misinterpretation? -- after all, I put the odd oath and expletive into commission with each dropped hammer or glass.
Obviously the more complicated one's lifestyle, the louder the declaration has to be: hence newspaper classified advertising and whatever.
My late aunt was born in 1912; and her father named her "Minima" because as a miner he was on strike for a minimum wage of 12/6 a week (that's 62.5p to the younger element). When she was issued with her wartime Ration Book, it was in the name "Minnie". She protested, but she was pointedly told it would be easier to change her name than change the Ration Book.
-
:D
stories like that are what this site is all about - rathe rthan just dusty statistics, names and dates!
Mick
-
:D
stories like that are what this site is all about - rathe rthan just dusty statistics, names and dates!
Mick
Couldn't agree more Mick - and things don't seem to change - it is probably still easier to change one's name than to get a govt organisation to correct its records
Trish
-
Update:
Got the wedding certificate and Birth Certificates for John Horsley. The birth certificate gives the name of the father as 'unknown'. The wedding certificate gives the fathers name as James Horsley. So seems our detective work came up trumps.
Another bit of help - I've seen a book on the Internet called the Horsley's of Melbourne by an Author called Richard Horsley Osbourne. Does anyone know where the book could be found? I can't find it on Amazon for example.
-
hello try this site ?????that is if you are not Mick Hamer
http://www.brentnall.com/
the book was written in 1995
sylvia
-
Not Mick Hamer. Got the title now but no idea where to find the book. :(
-
hello ,did you checkout the brentnall site ,there is a connection with your family.And reference to the book
sylvia
-
Found the connection but not the book. :(
Intersting reading the various family tree data on that site. The description fo Henry the 8th (our most dread lord soverign ...) checking out the men of Ilkeston is very vivid.
-
i think i will read it now
thanks
-
Hi
I've just seen this thread and wonder if you have come across a James Horsley c1780 he married an Ann Brooks and they had a daughter Millicent Horsley brn c1802 in Melbourne.
She married Robert Sutton of Hartshorne and was my Gt Gt Gt Grandmother.
I also have Pass in my tree
Arthur Pass c1868 and Mary Pass c1846 who married into the Jackson family - I'm not sure if they were related to each other as I haven't researched their roots (They are not directly related to me)
Glyn
-
The Horsley book in its entirety is available (I am told!) at the Irongate library.
Included are links to the Pass family on 2 fronts, James Horsley married Mary Pass in 1760 and also later in the tree Mary Horsley married Stephen Pass in 1809. Well worth a read anyway!!