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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Jamie H on Wednesday 09 August 06 02:40 BST (UK)
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Has anyone any Romany connections to families YOUNG and WILKS in Worcester? Not sure if they were Romany.
Or the TUDGEY name?
Jamie H
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Hello
I know this is a bit after the fact but I was wondering whether the Tudgay/Tudgeys were of Romany stock but can't really find any conclusive evidence.
Priscilla Tudgay was my ggggg grandmother. I don't know when she was born as she was baptised along with her sisters as a married adult. Her father was Thomas Tudgay and her mother was Mary Tudgey ::).
So she was married to John Morgan in 1809 in Corsley, Wiltshire and was baptised in 1813 as Priscilla Morgan Tudgay. Thomas Tudgay's parents were John Tudgay of Kingston Deverill and Priscilla (who sometimes called herself Elizabeth).
John & Priscilla/Elizabeth also had two boys called Moses, one of whom died when he was a little boy when a cart upturned and killed him. He is called Moses Todkey in the death register.
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Thank you for your reply. I'm very interested to know you have a TUDGEY connection. I'm descended from TUDGEYs too. Have you seen this website
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/brian.taylor19/tudgaystart.htm
Maybe we could exchange information via the private messages about this? I'm descended from this one:–
William Tudgy m Mary Fawlett, 05/09/1752, Fovant, Wilts
but we haven't found William's birth.
http://www.dorsetbay.plus.com/gen/norman/norman20.htm
is another website which mentions your family.
Jamie
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Hello
I just wrote a long reply and it unexpectedly quit on me. ::)
I had never seen the second site, thank you. I have got a lot of my information from the first one, it's really good.
I am descended from John (b) on this page. John & Priscilla/Elizabeth had Thomas Tudgay who had 4 daughters all of whom were baptised on the same day as adults (2 of them were already married). I'm descended from his daughter Priscilla.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/brian.taylor19/files/leighonmendip.htm
My only real Romani connection to the Tudgays is that Priscilla married into the Morgans who were travellers. It is possible that she was a non-Romani who married in but I have heard speculation from several quarters now that the Tudgays were in some way related to the Romani Tugbys.
I only have photos of Priscilla g & gg grandsons (my great grandad and gg grandad). Perhaps you can see a family resemblence...just a little bit distant I know ;D but I love photos, they really can tell you a lot.
This is Albert Edward Morgan Snr. (Priscilla was his great grandmother)
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-3.jpg
And Albert Edward Morgan Jnr.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-2.jpg
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Sorry I didn't make it clear in the above post (which was mainly gibberish sorry) but your William's ancestor William was my John's brother.
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So you are descended from:
b) John Tudgey of Kingston Deverill, christened 27/08/1742, husband of Elizabeth; the eldest son of John Tudgey, christened 19/02/1694, in Longbridge Deverill, wife Priscilla; eighth child of James Tudgy/Tudgey, m 1677 at Longbridge Deverill.
So, you mean that my William Tudgy who married Mary Fawlett (or Follett) in 1852 was a son of a William Tudgy who was brother to your John Tudgey?
Not sure if I should be able to work this out from Brian Taylor's website – I am easily confused ;D but I wondered if you could give me any details of this John and his brothers to help me understand. Do you have the information from a separate source to Brian Taylor?
Re the second website – did you notice the Tudgey who married into the Marshall family? I suspect that the Marshalls could have been Romany.
I didn't know that there were Romany TUGBYs. Can you give me details of those?
Thanks for the photos. The second one bears a great resemblance to my own father, but I don't think we'd have a direct link with the Morgans, would we?
If you can help me link in my William into the family tree it'd be great because so far we've come to a brick wall with William's birth.
I'd be interested to learn more of your Romany Morgans.
This is so exciting :)
Jamie
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I'm sorry, what I said was really confusing. :-[
Right I will try and explain it better...
I am descended from James Tudgay of Longbridge Deverill. He had a bunch of children including William (c.1692) and John (c.1694).
Brian's website says that the William is possibly the ancestor of your William. John is the father of John Tudgay who (with Priscilla/Elizabeth - she used two names) had Thomas who fathered Priscilla who married John Morgan.
Your father is blood related to both of the people in the photos if he is from the Tudgay line as both of them are descended from Priscilla Tudgay. So your father and them would share the ancestor James Tudgay if Brian's supposition is right. I'm pretty certain all Tudgays are related anyway actually.
I had seen the Marshall and had wondered the same thing. I might look into the Romany Marshalls to see if there is any connection with the area.
I know very little of the Tugbys but I am going to look into those as well. I have a bunch of old Romany Routes that I am sure have information on them. I will look into the Marshalls and Tugbys this morning and get back to you on them.
Regarding the Romany name thing as well, I had also heard the theory that the name Tudgay came from the Romany word for milk & whey (can't remember exactly).
The Morgans ended up living in the Notting Hill slums. They moved all the way to London but went back to baptise some of their children in various places in Wiltshire. They were mainly masons which isn't a particularly Romany job but I have seen Romany masons several times before. They were also bird and dog dealers...a bit of a weird job, hawkers, labourers and then worked in the laundry.
The man who you said looked like you father married a Romany girl (she was actually a quarter Spanish/Portuguese Jew as well but mainly Romany). Her father was a marine store dealer, bricklayer's labourer, watercress seller, hawker/general dealer.
They used to have an old Romany vardo wheel in the back garden but it has sadly disappeared.
I have posted this link in another thread but this is the area that Priscilla's descendants (the Morgans) lived. http://worley.org.uk/NOTTING%20DALE.htm
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Please don't apologise for your explanation — it's more my difficulty in sorting everyone out. I am starting a family tree with the James Tudgay and the two Williams on it, to try and get it straight in my mind. Though, Brian Taylor says he is speculating re the relationship of the Williamses. For now, I'll assume he is correct and see where that gets me. There must be some way of checking, but I think one would have to be on the spot to look in old libraries and archives, etc.
We do have some Tugbys in our family. One of my distant cousins, descended from William Tudgy and Mary Fawlett (Follett) has a John Tudgey or Tugby who married Rebecca Aldridge in Hampshire, 1819, and she found a lot of Tugby's (plus some amazing variations on the name) in Hordle, Hants.
How do you send a photograph? I can't work that out either! :-[
In our Tudgey family we have a legend that the Tudgey ancestor came to England from Spain (with the Armada) or from Brittany.
Does Romany dark colouring pop up in different generations? Dark colouring in our family seems to have done that, and also in a family I was in touch with who is connected to the Marshall/Tudgey line.
Jamie
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Please don't apologise for your explanation — it's more my difficulty in sorting everyone out. I am starting a family tree with the James Tudgay and the two Williams on it, to try and get it straight in my mind. Though, Brian Taylor says he is speculating re the relationship of the Williamses. For now, I'll assume he is correct and see where that gets me. There must be some way of checking, but I think one would have to be on the spot to look in old libraries and archives, etc.
We do have some Tugbys in our family. One of my distant cousins, descended from William Tudgy and Mary Fawlett (Follett) has a John Tudgey or Tugby who married Rebecca Aldridge in Hampshire, 1819, and she found a lot of Tugby's (plus some amazing variations on the name) in Hordle, Hants.
How do you send a photograph? I can't work that out either! :-[
In our Tudgey family we have a legend that the Tudgey ancestor came to England from Spain (with the Armada) or from Brittany.
Does Romany dark colouring pop up in different generations? Dark colouring in our family seems to have done that, and also in a family I was in touch with who is connected to the Marshall/Tudgey line.
Jamie
Hello, I'm very interested that you have found the Tugby name used as a variant to Tudgey (the variants are crazy aren't they I've found Todkey, Tadgey, Tidgey, Dodkey, Tudgey, Tudgee, Tudgy, Todgey...the list goes on.
I looked yesterday for the Tugbys in the Romany Routes but they are only in copies I don't own ::) typical.
When I was looking though my Romany records I had already marked out the Marshall entries which means they must come somewhere else in the family as well. I'm going to look further in to the Marshall line as I'm finally organised now. I had to have a big sort out.
It's funny that there is this Tudgay legend of the name probably to explain away the dark looks. My great grandmother used to say, and I quote, her grandmother "had been had up against the tiles by the Italian lodger". ;D
The darkness is pretty consistent in my family until they started to marry into the gorje population (in my case Spanish/Portuguese Jews, Hugenot French, Irish and English). My sister is dark as are two of my three uncles while the other uncle is blonde and blue eyed.
It should be pretty easy to add a photo. You can either click on the attach a photograph link at the bottom of the reply box or you can open a photobucket account and just link from there...I would love to see pictures if you had any. :D
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I've seen the following baptisms in Whitwick Leics, if it's any help -
21 Mar 1830 William s/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
30 Sep 1832 Thomas s/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
13 Oct 1833 William Gregory s/o John & Sarah Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
16 Oct 1836 Hannah d/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
30 Jun 1844 Hosea s/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringstone, Hawker
28 Oct 1846 Alfred Isaac s/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
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I've seen the following baptisms in Whitwick Leics, if it's any help -
21 Mar 1830 William s/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
30 Sep 1832 Thomas s/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
13 Oct 1833 William Gregory s/o John & Sarah Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
16 Oct 1836 Hannah d/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
30 Jun 1844 Hosea s/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringstone, Hawker
28 Oct 1846 Alfred Isaac s/o William & Mary Tugby, Thringston, Hawker
Thank you so much, that is great. :)
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Well, I'm trying hard to attach a photo of my dad. No success yet. Still trying ;)
Jamie
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I've posted a query re attaching photos on the FAQ section of the Beginners bit. So, I'm hoping to learn what I'm doing wrong.
Meanwhile, re the TUDGEYs I've just come across these websites:
http://onupalong.net/FamHist/treediags/fam-tudg.gif
and
http://onupalong.net/FamHist/treediags/fam-tudg-others.gif
They give your family and mine. It doesn't show where my William TUDGEY fits in — that's the brick wall. I'm from the bit where Elizabeth Retford and Henry Tudgey marry. And, notice that it says it is “Tudby” in register! Also, there are Tudby's in the tree too.
Any ideas on how my William, at the top of my tree, fits in will be gratefully received :D
Jamie
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Ha, God what a lot of Tudgeys, I'll be there forever adding them onto my family tree. ;D
Thank you though, that is great to have all those new names. I will try and help you work out how William fits in, I hate brick walls. With travellers it is just a world of brick wall unfortunately. They didn't like formalising stuff in general. :-\
It will be great to work out how he fits in but it's really frustrating not being able to find his baptism. I've looked everywhere I know but there must be something that will click it into place.
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That's right. Waiting for the "something to click into place" is the problem ;D
Thank you for being willing to help. If only he'd had a name like Ebenezer or Jabez or anything but William!!
Not sure if I can post the picture I want. I did manage to send it to the practice site in pdf format. But it was too huge for words. I'll try the gif I've just done and see if that works.
Hmm. I don't think it did. Hey, it did, but it's a bit big. I hope that's okay.
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That's right. Waiting for the "something to click into place" is the problem ;D
Thank you for being willing to help. If only he'd had a name like Ebenezer or Jabez or anything but William!!
Not sure if I can post the picture I want. I did manage to send it to the practice site in pdf format. But it was too huge for words. I'll try the gif I've just done and see if that works.
Hmm. I don't think it did. Hey, it did, but it's a bit big. I hope that's okay.
That is fantastic, I can definitely see a resemblance especially in the lips. He was a very good-looking bloke. :)
I'm trying to do my Smith line so I can definitely sympathise with the common name problem. Trying to find the right John Smith is near on impossible. ;D
Although sometimes having a strange name is just as bad because they are commonly mistranscribed or misspelt.
I got stuck on my first Tudgay for ages. There was a Priscilla Tudgay baptised when my Priscilla was an adult as Priscilla Morgan Tudgay but it never said on the baptism records it was for an adult so I assumed it was a child's baptism, probably a niece of my Priscilla, and then I realised that all four sisters had been baptised on the same day as adults, two of them already married hence their married names being used as well.
Who knows why they weren't baptised as children although perhaps the same thing happened to William, maybe he was never baptised...hmmm.
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He was good looking, wasn't he? I agree :)
You mentioned your Smith line. Where are your Smiths from? I've got a Smith line, too. In fact, my dad was a Smith!
Jamie
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He was good looking, wasn't he? I agree :)
You mentioned your Smith line. Where are your Smiths from? I've got a Smith line, too. In fact, my dad was a Smith!
Jamie
My Smiths are from Oxfordshire and married into the Morgans. Priscilla Tudgay's grandson in fact, Charles Morgan. He married an Ellen Smith, daughter of Thomas Smith and Alice Grant. :)
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My Smiths were from Norfolk, then Essex, then Surrey. I had wondered if there was a Romany connection through them, but maybe not. The Tudgeys seem to be the route to follow.
Jamie
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My Smiths were from Norfolk, then Essex, then Surrey. I had wondered if there was a Romany connection through them, but maybe not. The Tudgeys seem to be the route to follow.
Jamie
What sort of jobs did they do? I have Smiths that married into the Morgan line so are indirectly related to the Tudgays but they are from Oxfordshire.
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The furthest back I've been able to go is with:–
Samuel Smith who married Sophia Wright 6 Nov. 1803 Diss, Norfolk. He was a chaffcutter. The Smiths moved to Maldon in Essex and the male descendants were carpenters. Not Romany occupations …
Do you think that a YOUNG family in Worcester who were blacksmiths, could be Romany – from the point of view of occupation? Because Elizabeth YOUNG married, firstly, Thomas WILKS, and then Edward TUDGEY (in Hallow in 1870). And I have thought that the dark colouring I've been investigating could have come from the YOUNG line, or the WILKS line – if it wasn't the TUDGEYs.
Jamie
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The furthest back I've been able to go is with:–
Samuel Smith who married Sophia Wright 6 Nov. 1803 Diss, Norfolk. He was a chaffcutter. The Smiths moved to Maldon in Essex and the male descendants were carpenters. Not Romany occupations …
Do you think that a YOUNG family in Worcester who were blacksmiths, could be Romany – from the point of view of occupation? Because Elizabeth YOUNG married, firstly, Thomas WILKS, and then Edward TUDGEY (in Hallow in 1870). And I have thought that the dark colouring I've been investigating could have come from the YOUNG line, or the WILKS line – if it wasn't the TUDGEYs.
Jamie
Hmm, being a blacksmith wasn't a typical Romany job anymore than being a carpenter but I'm certain I have seen both jobs being done by travelling people.
Some of my ancestors who I know (not just suspect) were travellers were masons which is hardly your typical Romany job but they both came separately from the same general area in Somerset/Wiltshire where stone working is very common so they probably picked up different skills depending on the type of work that was commonly needed in the areas they travelled in. (Sorry I don't think I explained that very well).
Often looking at neighbours' occupations can help although it is hardly conclusive evidence. With only one exception, on my line they are living amongst general dealers/hawkers/pedlars/tinplate workers/cutlers etc although it does of course depend on when they settled. I'm pretty sure that my Morgan family had settled by the end of the 19th century in London and possibly as early as the 1850s. In which case there is no guarantee they will still be living amongst travellers.
It's very hard to prove unless you have family stories or just masses of evidence but I have heard several times the suggestion about the Tudgay line so my assumption that they were English people who married in (as in my line it was a woman not a man which although not favoured was preferred to a man marrying in) has grounds to be doubted.
Coupled with the dark colouring there is reason to believe the suggestions have some basis and if they are it is probable that the families they married into (eg. the Marshalls, Youngs, Wilks etc) were of traveling blood too.
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Well, if you do happen to come across the link between my William Tudgey and your Tudgey folk, do let me know. I seem to have gone as far as I can with the Wilks, Tudgeys and Youngs – and have got stuck with all of them. But, one never knows ;)
Jamie
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honey-roma88 — you said you had ancestors in Corsley. Have you seen this:
(Some Selected Reports from the Salisbury and Winchester Journal)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~dutillieul/ZOtherPapers/Index/TI.html
Apparently, a Thomas Tudgey lived at Corsley.
Thought you might be interested. I don't know if he fits in with my lot, or not.
Also, at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~dutillieul/ZOtherPapers/S&WJMar151813.html
there is a account of a trial where a Tudgey is involved.
Jamie
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Thank you, that is great. :D
I think that is my great x 6 grandfather. At least he didn't actually kill those people. :(
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Hi there - is anyone still active on this thread as I researching the Tudgays & Marshalls in Kingston Deverill . Will post more if there is any response as it's 10 years since there was any activity on this
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Hi there - is anyone still active on this thread as I researching the Tudgays & Marshalls in Kingston Deverill . Will post more if there is any response as it's 10 years since there was any activity on this
Hi Helen,
I'm not really active, but I got an alert to your message. I've rather given up on finding a Romany connection although a cousin has had someone looking into our family history. This reseacher said the Tudgeys in my line were all dark haired and brown-eyed but that needn't mean much I guess. I thought the dark colouring in my line came from the Youngs or Wilks in Worcestershire. And I've wondered about an Indian connection - but again, I don't know <sigh>.
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Hi Jamie, Not sure if we have been in touch before or not . It was my old Dorsetbays website you quoted though that's long gone as there was too much on there that was inaccurate.
I have spent years looking for a Romany link based on my grandmother's story that we had Romany ancestry possibly linked to coming over from Spain. There is a definite dark gene that seems to appear once in every family - very dark wavy hair, dark eyes, olive skin, very different to the rest of the family. My middle daughter often gets asked if she is Middle eastern or Indian. It's a very strong gene. Even in the most recent generations we have a 3 year old and a 5 year old in two different families on opposite sides of the world with the 'dark gene'
Over the years I have ruled out a Romany link in every line except for the Tudgay one and that's the one I keep coming back to. I have confess I put all research aside for about 8 years and am coming back to it with fresh eyes . In the past I had heard from other Tudgay researchers also looking at the Romany link but no one had any real proof, just circumstantial evidence .
I am descended from John & Priscilla Tudgay (not got the Longbridge Deverill link back to John's father so thank you for that). Have never found who Priscilla was - a very unusual name but popular with Romanies. The Marshall family could have been - struggling to trace that particular line back - but no evidence. It was a common Romany name but a common name in the general population too. My sticking point is that my William Tudgay married Mary Mifflin and she was certainly not Romany (she come from what had been a wealthy, middle class Quaker family back in the 1600s though by the time she married William I think they were pretty poor!)
So I don't know. The other lady's link to her Priscilla Tudgay marrying into a known Romany family is the most tangible evidence I have seen. I have heard the idea of adult baptism using both the woman's maiden name and her married name is a Romany custom but I don't know if that's true!
All the best
Helen
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Hi Helen,
Have you come across any Indian (the country India, not American Indians) ancestry in the TUDGAYs?
I've got a strong possibility that my grandmother's generation had Indian blood. And, though I thought it came from the YOUNGS in Worcester, it could have been from the TUDGEYs.
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Hi Jamie, no none, sorry. Both my daughter and I have also had DNA tests and we are both 100% English/Welsh/Scottish, maybe a bit of North West Europe but no trace of anything beyond that. On further and deeper research I can find no evidence whatsoever that my Tudgey’s had any Romany links either. I think my grandmother must have made the story up. Good luck with your research, Helen