RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Wendl on Wednesday 06 September 06 18:48 BST (UK)
-
Hi there....
Can anyone offer any insight as to "Bare Knuckle" fighting during the early 1900's....apparently a popular past time to earn extra money in the Newtonards road, Short Strand and Shankill area's of Belfast.
All the best
Wendy
-
Read all about them on www.belfastforum.co.uk I think they are on the History board under Hardmen of Belfast. Seamus Doyle, Stormy Weather, Silver McKee and Buck Alec were the well known ones. Blair Mayne (Colonel Paddy), a founder of the SBS / SAS, was more than capable of handling those guys. He came out of Mooneys Bar at Cornmarket when Stormy and Silver were having a punch up and banged their heads together. I imagine most large cities throughout the British Isles had their Bare Knuckle fighters. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series2/bare_knuckle_fighting.shtml) The Marguess of Queensbury rules meant nothing to those guys nor did bookies shops as bets were made on the spot.
-
Hi Christopher...
Thanks for that....I'm looking for Information on a Cuthbert Carr...he was Known as the "Bare Knuckle" fighter of the Newtonards road...and worked at Harland and Wolfe....Hopefully someone may be familiar with him.
All the Best
Wendy
-
He's at least a generation before the one's I mentioned Wendy. I'd still post the query on the Belfast site. It's part of the history of the city. We're trying to get as full a picture of events in our time as possible. It's much better than bits scattered on genealogy sites all over the place.
Best Wishes, Chris
-
Hi Wendy,
I've just been watching Bare-Knuckle fighting on YouTube.
One was Denis "Aney" McGinley (35) challenging bareknuckle champ Dan Rooney (33)
in Crossmaglen on 9th August 1990.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mla2VxabR74&feature=related
The other was about the late Bartley Gorman (1944 - 2002) who held the title "King of the Gypsies" He mentioned Gypsies are similar to the Indian tribes in the US. Bartley's breed are the Gormans, the Fureys, the Wilsons, the Kellys, the O'Neills, the Maguires and the Bryans. www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB0_QEh-KVs&feature=related
A bit more research is required to find some information about Cuthbert Carr.
Christopher
-
Thankyou for your reply, I have seen the entries you speak of on youtube....
as well have found out much information on Cuthbert Carr, he was a Shipwright by trade, and worked in America as well as Belfast....also, lived off the Newtonards road....
Thanks again
-
Bare Knuckle fighting was illegal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series2/bare_knuckle_fighting.shtml
-
Bare Knuckle fighting was illegal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series2/bare_knuckle_fighting.shtml
It may have been illegal but when you needed a loaf on the table what was there to do? The ancestors of many people stole a loaf and were transported. How many people from the ruling classes were bare-knuckle fighters? The areas where such guys were usually found tended to be the areas of cities where the poor working classes lived.
Christopher
-
How do I upload a photo on here? It's a photo of my nans uncle with a Bartley Gorman but not the Bartley Gorman who died at age 57, I was told the the Bartley Gorman in the photo with my nans uncle is related to Bartley Gorman king of the gypsies who died recently.
-
Welcome to Rootschat Chris88.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,185004.0.html
This link explains how to add an image. Best of luck.
cc
-
in 1901 a Cuthbert Carr aged 29lived at 15 Henry Street Londonderry No 3 urban, with his wife Elizabeth, daughter Clementina 4 and Mary Stewart 10 months he was a Shipwright.
In 1911 a Cuthbert Carr lived at 13 Bloomdale street Pottinger Down wife now Susanna, Clementina 14, Mary Stewart 10 also a Margaret Moffett daughter about 10months.
-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie
-
Hi Wendl,
Can't help you with Cuthbert Carr.
We do have a family anecdote w.r.t. Silver McKEE.
He decided to honour the family with his (and others) presence one night at the pub/family_home in the countryside just outside Belfast.
Unfortunately he was already well fueled up, and soon started causing an unwelcome ruckus, disturbing other customers.
He was given his immediate marching orders.
He left the premises reluctantly uttering a tirade of abuse, threatening to come back the next day to do dire things.
He did return as promised.
The family were geared up to receive him (appropriately aware of his reputation).
Our battleship, Great-aunt Mart, was up front.
She was backed up by our conciliatory "angel" great-aunt "Nan".
Then by the youngster of the family, my grandad (with a car starter handle up his jumper).
Finally, great-uncle "Jim" was at the open window upstairs with his duck-hunting blunderbuss charged and ready for action.
[Er ... presumably with a view to firing "wide"!]
Silver got out of the car on his own and asked to talk to Mart alone.
He apologised profusely for his behaviour the previous night, and asked for forgiveness.
Such was duly given, and he was given permission to visit again (subject to good behaviour).
So, perhaps such so-called "hard men" were just like the rest of us ...
[With a need for love/inclusion?]
Reckon that this must have occurred in the (1940s?) / 1950s.
Thats "Nan" (Mary Ann), Jim & Martha on the front row of my monicker photo.
All sadly long gone now, but deep memories always cherished.
[The six in the photo were only the first half of the family, 3 boys & 3 girls!
Oops, I just gave away the secret of how many boys are in the photo.
No one ever did respond over the years to my challenge.
Young boys used to be dressed in skirts 'til they were out of the "nappy" phase of their upbringing.
The photo dates from ~1903/4, when Jim was about 2/3 years old.]
Capt. Jock
NOTE
When you enter a pub, a private premises, you are there at the invitation of the publican.
Your right even to be there, or to be served, is entirely at the discretion of the licence holder.
The best way to think of it is that it is their home, so they will invite-in/entertain who they want.
Our family's pub, in those days, consisted only of a small room (with 4 small tables, and a fireplace) adjacent to the living room, with another small room behind the bar "for the ladies".
[Many pubs have their origins in the front rooms of houses.
This followed the relaxation of laws in 1830.
This was due to the Gin ("Mother's Ruin") crisis.
Soldiers returning from the Napoleonic Wars brought their love of Dutch "ginever" home.
This was a medical astringent linament, meant to be applied externally to ease the pain of sores.
However, it contained a strong alcohol component, so was duly imbibed.
This then flooded in to the UK (of Britain and all of Ireland) at the time.
Such produced huge social, and country balance-of-payments, problems for the Government.
They decided to encourage local production (beer, whisky), and to open up the points of sale.
You could buy a spirit licence for 2 Guineas and start selling from home.
Result: A disproportionate number of "spirit sellers" appear in the 1832 OS Survey Memoirs.
e.g. Villages might contain 1 Butcher, 2 Bakers & 7 Spirit Retailers!
Er, 'twas all a tad too "successful"!
The laws were then tightened-up shortly afterwards, in 1832, differentiating pubs & off-licences.
Many publican-ing families can trace their origins to this time, back 4 or 5 generations.]
The earliest evidence of alcohol production dates from Egyptian times circa 3,000 B.C.
It was well known to the Saxons (as "beer"), recognised as a means of making men "strong" before battle.
The Vikings used it to enable their warriors to go "beserk" for immediate "operational" effect.
No doubt it was a strong element in fueling the courage of Belfast's bare-knuckle fighters.
[Though, perhaps, its contribution to the extended-term effectiveness and health of the individual imbibers is debatable, as is its impact on the wider community ...]