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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: DianeM on Thursday 07 September 06 03:06 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for my GG grandfather James Matthew and my GG grandmother Margaret McDonald Paterson. I don't know where either were born or their birth dates. I know of two children James Paterson (my G grandfather) and Robert (from mother's death cert. in 1877, )
James Paterson Matthew's marriage cert in 1872 gives the address 49 Castle Street.
I have searched Scotland's People and found only one likely one. Living at 20 Castle Street are James and Margaret aged 57 and 59, his occupation looks like Insurance ..... but on the son's marriage cert. the father is a millwright ironworker. The census lists the children: Margaret, 22, James 27, Robert 25, Patrick, 25 and Elizabeth 23.
Problems: James (son) is 22 in 1872 on his marriage cert. and 27 on 1871 Census.
James (father) occupation is different.
Is there some way someone could check the census to see if there is a Matthew family living at 17 or 79 Dudhope which is the address given on the marriage certificate in 1872.
Thanks so much.
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A correction to the post above. I'm pretty sure that the address 49 Castle Street is the church's address.
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The 1871 census is available online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk This is a pay per view site with 30 credits costing £6.
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Hi DianeM,
The way you have written this all out is very confusing, I did read it a few times and I am still mixed up. Is this your fathers or mothers side of the family??
1. Do you have this parents birth cenrtificates?, were they married in Scotland? Do you have the marriage certificates?
2. Do you have any of the childrens birth certificates?? Were any of the children married in Scotland? Do you have any of their marriage certificates?
3. You work from this informatiom!!
4. The son James in obviously the wrong one as he can't be two different ages 27 on 1871 census and 22 a year later on marriage certificate.
You have to work backward not forward and backwards as you are doing, no wonder you are mixed up.
Elizabeth
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Hi Diane
There are two marriages showing in IGI for a James Matthew in 1872 Dundee, which one is your g grandfather?:
1. Spouse: MARY THOMSON Marriage: 12 APR 1872 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
2. Spouse: MARGRET ROSS Marriage:06 DEC 1872 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
There appears to be another couple in Dundee, a James Matthews and Margaret Stratton (various spellings of surname) who were having children around the same time:
1. MARGARET MATTHEW Birth: 13 SEP 1838 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
2. JOHN MATTHEW Birth: 21 SEP 1851 Christening: 14 OCT 1851 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
3. JAMES MATTHEW Birth: 04 JUL 1841 Christening: 04 JUL 1841 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
4. JESSIE MATTHEW Birth: 24 FEB 1854 Christening: 23 MAR 1854 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
5. ROBERT MATTHEW Birth: 22 AUG 1843 Christening: 22 AUG 1843 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
6. ELIZABETH WEBSTER MATTHEW Birth: 29 AUG 1847 Christening: 29 AUG 1847 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
7. MARY ANN MATTHEW Birth: 04 SEP 1849 Christening: 04 SEP 1849 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
8. PATRICK KINNEAR MATTHEW Birth: 15 SEP 1845 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Now, a lot of these children's names match the 1871 Census entry you have been looking at. Given that the father James's occupation is also different to what you have on the 1872 marriage entry, I would say it's probable that you don't have your James yet in the 1871 Census.
Also, your GG grandmother Margaret died in 1877 at the age of 56, which also doesn't match the age of the Margaret in 1871 who is shown as age 59. A Margaret Matthew other name Stratton died in 1888 (birth year 1812) in the St Mary's district of Dundee.
There are 5 entries showing in Dundee for a James Mat*hew* aged 19-23. Have you looked at these?
Regards.
Monica
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Thank you all for your help, and sorry that I was so scattered when I wrote the post.
Here’s what I know:
GG Grandparents:
James Matthew & Margaret McDonald Paterson
Their sons:
James Paterson Matthew (my G Grandfather)
Robert Matthew
Marriage Cert of James Paterson Matthew & Margaret Rollo Grubb
Marriage Certificate, Edinburgh & Glasgow Records Office
6 December, 1872 at 49 Castle Street, Dundee
James Matthew, Power Loom Tender, Bachelor age 22, 19 Dudhope Crescent, Dundee
Margaret Grubb, Spinster age 21, Power Loom Weaver, Spinster, Name of Grubb given to the bride by the partner who adopted her.
Parents:
James Matthew, Millwright Ironworker
Margaret McDonald Matthew, MS Paterson
David Ross, Private Soldier
Ann Rollo, housekeeper
Death Certificate
St. Andrew, Dundee
May 10, 1877
Margaret Matthew, Widow of James Matthew, General Labourer
8 Lumdsy (sp) Lane
Informant: Robert Matthew, 96 Dudhope Street.
From the two certificates I found the son Robert, the birth years of the son (1850) & wife (1851), address at time of marriage and address of mother and son at the mother’s death.
I’ve really spent lots of money on Scotland’s People, but James Matthew is such a common name.
I hope this is a bit clearer now.
DianeM
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Diane
Do you have your James on later censuses (1881 on) confirming age and birthplace?
I had a look at Margaret Paterson Mathew's death cert. Have you been able to make out her mother's maiden name - dreadful writing by the registrar!
Monica
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I've found two of James and Margaret Ross/Rollo/Grub's children:
1. MARGARET PATERSON MATTHEW Birth: 06 SEP 1873 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
2. JEMIMA MATTHEW Birth: 22 JUL 1872 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
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This could well be them on the 1881 Census:
James, 30, Jute Power Loom Tenter, b. Markinch, Fife
Margt., 29, b. Ferry Port on Craig, Fife
Jemima, 8 , b. Dundee
William, 6, b. England
Jessie, 3, b. England
Maggie, 2, b. Dundee
Alexander, 3, b. Dundee
Address: Mc Larens Buildings Lyon Street, Dundee
The Margaret b. 1873 looks to maybe have died, a second Margaret showing born later.
James's birth place (and wife Margaret's) may well explain why you haven't been able to find them in Dundee in earlier censuses.
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Hi Just noticed someone posted the 1881, I had just found them too in the 1881 on Scotland People!!
Betty
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Thanks so much for all this information. This morning I have been searching for the older James and margaret in the 1851 Census. I thought I was on to something. In the search for James age 18-41, there was: age 36, Dundee 181/00 040/00 019
and for Margaret age 17 - 35 there was: age 22, Dundee 181/00 040/00 018.
I thought by the numbers that they might be one after the other on the census page, but this was not so.
What actually do these numbers tell?
Now I realize that they were most likely not in Dundee at all.
Thanks for your help.
DianeM
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Hi Diane,
If you searched on Scotlands people for these births, then the numbers are what you need to order the actual certificate from Scotlands people, if they are something else then not sure but birth certificates and marriage certiificates cost £7 each.
Elizabeth
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I think I've found Margaret and sons in Ballingray, Fife in 1861:
Margaret, 44 b. seamstress, Midlothian
Robert, 13 b. Fife
James, 11, b. Fife
Archibald, 9, b. Fife
Alexander, 5, b. Dundee
Margaret is showing as a widow.
Do you think that Margaret's mother's surname is Cock (from Margaret's death cert)? Only one entry in Midlothian for 1810-30 on IGI for the birth of a Margaret with parents Robert and Mary:
MARGARET PATERSON Christening: 13 JUN 1813 Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland
Parents: Father: ROBERT PATERSON Mother: MARY COCK
You're right to look at the GRO refs when doing census searches for more that one name. It's not a 100% but if the number is the same, what this tells you is that at least they are on the same page and there is some chance that they might be in the same household (that's how I found the Margaret and sons above in 1861!). In respect of your example above, the last two number sets 18 and 19 refer to the pages. Sometimes for a household, the entries are over two pages (and you have to view both to get all the info which is a pain). Again, the GRO refs are a guide only, and whilst a very useful one for discounting lots of entries, at the end of the day you still have to view to verify.
Monica
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Thank you Monica. I'm sure this is the family. I have no clues in any of the later family to hint that Cock is her maiden name, but everything else matches. The spelling of Paterson and the first son being named Robert is a good indication too.
This is great too as I now have more of the siblings and know that the father died before 1861. So much information out there!
ElizabethI, the Matthew family I found that looked like a real possibility on the 1851 Census, the 018 ad 019 must have been consecutive pages, and the one I looked was in the middle of page 018, so I didn't bother to view the next page.
Thanks again for both your help.
DianeM
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Hi DianeM
James and Margaret Matthew were my GG/Grandparents, we have been doing extensive family history research for over 20 years now and it's not until the last five or so years that we have established the Matthew family details.
James Paterson Matthew was born about 1850 in Port George , Inverness-shire as recorded on his marriage certificate, or Markinch recorded on the census records and Margaret.
James and Margaret married in St Clemens parish, Dundee Scotland 6 Dec 1872. James was a millwright journeyman and Margaret a power loom weaver in the same Jute factory this suggests that they met while working there.
The marriage certificate records that theirs was a civil marriage, probably because the couple already had a 5 month old daughter Jemima, rather than a religious ceremony, it was performed at 49 Castle Street.
Margaret is listed on her wedding certificate as living (perhaps with her adoptive parents, David and Anne Ross, nee Rollo) at 7 Castle Court. James' home was listed as 19 Dunhope Cres, Dundee.
They were to live in a variety of addresses over the years to come, once even relocating to Barrow-in-Furness in Lancashire, England for a few years, perhaps a reflection of their need to find work and their poverty.
James and Margaret had nine (poss 10) children
1 - Jemima born 22 July 1872 (while living in 17 Lawrence St, Dundee)
2 - Margaret Paterson was also born there in 6 Sept 1873 England (died before any later census)
3 - William Johnston born 16 Sept 1874 England (my G/Grandfather) killed in action 9 April 1917 in France and Flanders WW1
4 - Jesse Grey born June 1877 Barrow-in-Furness England Died 1918 40Y
5 - Margaret (Maggie) born January 1879 Cotton Road, Dundee
6 - Alexander (?) born 1881 (3 months old 1883 does not show on the next census)
7 - Archibald Paterson born 23 May 1882 16 Lyon Street, Dundee - Died in Melbourne Australia 12/01/1939
8 - James T born 1887 Died in Australia (?)
9 - Mary-Anne born 1890 Died unknown date
10 - Nellie 1892 Died unknown date
We have loads of other information on the Matthew family if you want anymore, so I hope this clarifies some dates, names and places for you.
William Johnson Matthew married Joan Slorance Shiel 18 Mar 1905 and went on to have six children, one being James Archibald Paterson Matthew my grandfather killed in action 22 May 1940 in Belgium WW2
He had two daughters the eldest was my mother emigrated to New Zealand 1949 died 23/03/16
Kind Regards and I hope this helps you in your search
Mandy