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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Timbottawa on Sunday 24 September 06 09:34 BST (UK)
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I have a photo, which is in terrible condition, of a group of theatrical people sitting outside a theatre. I'd like to know which theatre, and what is written on a bill board in the photo. I attached cropped images of the theatre name and the billboard.
1. Theatre name. It is clearly Coliseum, but what word precedes it? The script is different, so it may not be the "Something" Coliseum, but your thoughts would be welcome.
2. Billboard. Yes, I can make out "O.K."! And the first line is obviously "Coliseum". I think 2 lines below O.K. it says "Musical Concert", but I've played around with contrast etc, in Adobe Photoshop without getting any further - I need an expert!
Thanks for all ideas
Tim
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I think the leading word is ? E T ? G A T E
Pauline
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I agree with Pauline - something-gate
Google identifies a few Coliseum theatres:
London Coliseum - Matcham designed red-brick
Oldham 20s, no glass
Aberystwyth 20s, sign at top of building, not glass BUT was it different in the past?
Aberdare - ditto
Unfortunately we can't be sure that the photos available are anything like their former glory - the Aberystwyth theate seems to have been quite different in the past.
What does the place look like if you don't crop the image?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
p.s. there are also Coliseum cinemas, just to complicate matters!
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I think the leading word is ? E T ? G A T E
Pauline
The first "E" doesn't look like the last "E" does it? maybe an L? The last T totally agree, but looking at the first "T" it takes up less space widthways than the second, could it be an "I"?
No solutions but others will do more thinking about it.
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Thanks for your thoughts, Pauline and Arranroots. I attach the entire photo, if that helps, but I think it just shows how bad it is - a copy of a copy of ...
However, knowing which relative the original belonged to, I'm confident that the theatre would have been in Yorkshire - most likely Leeds, Scarborough or possibly Bradford. Newcastle is a possible non-Yorks location.
Cheers
Tim
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Ah - there was a Coliseum Building in Leeds - will find out a bit more - wait one...
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You can see it here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tk/
(enlarge the photo on the bottom right to see the canopy - could be a candidate?)
A ;)
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Thanks Arranroots,
The link in your message didn't take me to a photo, but looking around the same site I found a photo of the Colisseum in 1946 as the Gaumont Cinema .... is that the photo you were meaning? If so, then it has an awning, like in the photo, but I don't think there's enough in either photo to go further than that, do you?
Cheers
Tim
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Bizarre! Yes, that's the one. The site must have changed since the Google spiders visited!
It would be nice to find a picture with the glasswork, which would give a better indication.
I am having trouble finding a play with OK in the title - I always thought that that was quite a recent term in the English language - any idea of the date of the photo?
A ;)
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No real idea of the date. The relative, who is a cousin once removed, and her husband actually managed the City Varieties in Leeds from about the 1930s to late 1950s. Previously they lived in Scarborough, siblings performed in the Moss Empire, based at the Alhambra in Bradford, and their father apparently once owned (or more likely managed) the Tyne THeatre in Newcastle. Hence the four locations I mentioned.
Others more knolwledgeable on clotihng styles might be able to date the photo, but I would say 1920s or 30s, wouldn't you?
OK dates from the late 19thC, doesn't it?
Tim
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the art deco/art nouveau lettering put it at 1920/1930's at the earliest for me. the womens outfits are also pre-WW2, so 1930's is good for me.
Pauline
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Tim
Can you scan the billboard section in at a very large resolution?
I have just played about with contrast etc,but it's too small to read.
All the best
Carol
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I think I can read one of the names as "Stan Kidell".
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Hi Carol,
Doh! Why didn't I think of the resolution? Here is the board at 600dpi, the original was 150dpi. I'll also play around with it again.
And thanks Oonagh ... I'll Google Stan Kidell to see what happens.
Cheers
Tim
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HI Tim,I tried Stan Kidell, zilch!!!,
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Second name down, "something" Haddie??
followed by "musical concert"
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I am wondering if the names were not written first name/ surname underneath
Arran Tim
and
Roots Bottawa
That sort of thing?
A ;)
p.s. was working on the right hand one being Clara BUTT, though not at all sure!
It wasn't a very famous play!!
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Dear Arran
Roots
Yes, that makes sense because of the smaller font in the line under "Colisseum" compered with the following line. If they were two actors listed First name - Second nameand same again below, one would expect the first line - the headliner - to be in much bigger text, but it isn't. So I'm sure you're right.
I have "Car/Can/Cam/Gan" and "Kevin"
Can't get the larger surnames, though!
Tim
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PS The very fact that a photo was taken suggests a big event, and the board being held in the centre of the front row suggests that it describes the big event. Something like the 100th performance of O.K., or some really big star appearing in a modest provincial theatre!
Tim
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Some other leads that may help if we can find old photos...
Some "lost" Coliseums are in Blackpool on Lytham Road and in Brighton, 78 West Street open 1918-1919it became the Grand Picture Palace.
The history of Aberystwyth Coliseum is here..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites/aberystwyth/pages/coliseum.shtml
Sadly the picture is of the upper part of the building.
There is a postcard here so I don't think it's Aberystwyth..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites/aberystwyth/pages/coliseum_photos.shtml?3
I've got a gut feel for Blackpool - based on nothing! If I can find a picture I'll post...
Leeds also have an old coliseum
This walk finishes in Millennium Square at a red brick building which is now Creation Nightclub. This was the Coliseum Theatre before it became a cinema. Millennium Square was Leeds' flagship project to mark the year 2000, funded by Leeds City Council and the Millennium Commission.
Pam
;D
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Hmmm I'm liking a Leeds connection given all the "xxxxxxGATE" in the area.
http://www.leeds.gov.uk/discover/discovery.asp?page=2003218_251720608&topic=2003219_253704250&subsection=2003625_326427639
Some pictures above.
P ;D
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No real idea of the date. The relative, who is a cousin once removed, and her husband actually managed the City Varieties in Leeds from about the 1930s to late 1950s. Previously they lived in Scarborough, siblings performed in the Moss Empire, based at the Alhambra in Bradford, and their father apparently once owned (or more likely managed) the Tyne THeatre in Newcastle. Hence the four locations I mentioned.
Others more knolwledgeable on clotihng styles might be able to date the photo, but I would say 1920s or 30s, wouldn't you?
OK dates from the late 19thC, doesn't it?
Tim
Just saw this - I'm far too eager sometimes I take the lesson to read the thread first!!!
Scarborough also had a coliseum.
There is a picture of the Leeds theatre when it was a Gaumont - I like the proportions at the front.
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Tim -
My eyes would have me believe the following:
--TUGHIE COLISEUM in the stain glass lettering
Time period: I would say the 1920s - 1930s. Definitely pre WWII.
The small sign may read
COLISEUM
__________ (may be name of actor ??)
__________ (may be name of actor ??)
OK
A roaring
musical comedy
_________
________
Will try and look again later and "see" if I "see" anything different.
yn9man
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At first glance I thought the mystery word on the awning ended in NIGHT but then realised there was an 'E' on the end...still, someone might recognise the name... ???
Prue
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Here's a bit of an enhancement of the billboard - not sure if it helps anyone?
P
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I am having trouble finding a play with OK in the title - I always thought that that was quite a recent term in the English language - any idea of the date of the photo?
According to Dictionary.com and The Straight Dope (my source for all things important!!) the term "OK" is recorded first in 1839, and used commonly thereafter. A revelation to me, I thought it was a WW2 thing ::) ;D
P :)
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Best guess.
Stained glass lettering **MGATE
Coliseum
***---------Kenneth
***---------Horne
OK
A *********
Musical Comedy
Sheila
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Thanks to all for your thoughts.
I think yn9man's ideas seem good.
Prue ... I also thought of NIGHT in the theatre sign. I am far from convinced that the last "letter" is an E - it looks to me as though it might be a decorative motif, probably matched by a mirror image preceding the word, if we could see the whole sign. However, to make the word night, it would require the N to be lower case, whilst all other letters are clearly upper case, which seems unlikely.
Meanwhile I'm trying to track the photo backwards along the trail by which it reached me to see if I can locate a clearer copy.
Cheers
Tim
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Looks like Gar.... possibly Moore.
Theatre is not my thing though...so I will go now. ;)
Ambers
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I've messed around and made this into a negative image which sometimes helps. I think the first word after 'Coliseum' is CAR. Don't know the next 2 words but then I think HOME OK
Jill
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When I typed O.K. into google, it came up with references to Oklahoma. Well there was a famous theatre production of Oklahoma...maybe they abbreviated it for the poster?
Also after much fiddling with the image in my photo software, I think that underneath O.K it says something like "& starring Patricia Goresey". Or it could be Lucrecia or Bodecia or some name ending with cia.
It may be worth posting this photo over at the Photographic section. Those people do wonders with photos.
Nina
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Thanks Jill and Nina,
I also noted the Oklahoma connection when I Googled. But the problem is that it was first produced in 1943, and I read somewhere that it was not even originally called Oklahoma (let alone O.K.), but something else, only changing its name when the critics (what do they know?) slated it. I can't imagine that it reached Leeds, Scarborough, or wherever our Colisseum is, until at least 1950, which we seem to agree is much after the clothing styles in the photo.
Good idea to try the Photographic section (I didn't know about it!).
Cheers
Tim
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I tried various databases of theatre and film without success for the title.
If you are asking for help on the Photo board, I would simply post a link to this thread - then they can see what is goiing on & keep all the replies in one place - you could even lock the thread.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Gosh! That sounds awfully technical for a mere RootsChat Senior like myself! But I'll try to work out how to do it!
Tim
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A relative who possesses a better copy of the photo (which he is now sending me) says that he thinks the words above O.K. read:
Gar Kiddie
Nor Kiddie
Now, you can Google "Nor Kiddie" and discover (among many hits for "nor kiddie porn"!) that he was a bit of a star, even made a couple of films, in the mid 20s to mid 30s, which is exactly the right time period if our interpretation of clothing fashions is correct. My relative's theory is that Gar Kiddie was Nor's less well known brother, which would explain why he doesn't show up when Googled, and why his name is in smaller font.
Sounds plausible, but to my mind it still doesn't explain why such a large group photo - surely they didn't have such a photo for every production!
Tim
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Looks like Gar
Well done Ambers...you have better eyesight than me.
Now you have said Nor Kiddee Tim, I can see that quite clearly, its the bit below O.K that is very blurred.
The colesium frontage looks very sea-side to me, a bit like Southsea type shopwalk. Though I'm probably way off the mark.
Su
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Nor Kiddie appeared in panto in Robinson Crusoe at the Princes Theatre, Bradford, in 1924/5
Regards, Bill
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There is a poster on sale on e-Bay for a 1950s Bernie Delfont production at the Stockport Hippodrome starring "Nor Kiddie - the popular comedian"
Regards, Bill
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There was a musical written by the Gershwin's called "Oh Kay!" starring Gertrude Lawrence in London so I'm wondering if it's a Provincial theatre putting on the show? If they hadn't got permission to use Oh Kay! then perhaps O.K. or maybe it's a parody on the London Show.
Having trouble working out the name of the theatre - possible ???CETUGHTE unless it's something like ??NIGHTLY with the Y being very small and high up near the top of the L in which case it would be the tail end of TWICENIGHTLY.
Jean
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Brilliant sleuthing everyone! :D
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Dear All,
MYSTERY SOLVED ... or mostly solved!
I have now received a copy of the original photo from my distant relative. On the back is a date, June 14th, 1923 ... so we were close with our dating. It is a post-card sent from a cousin once-removed to her brother, who was awell-known comic of the era, named Jack Herbert.
I attach a scan of the photo. With the help of an old-fashioned magnifying glass, and strong light, the board says:
Gar Kiddie
Nor Kiddie
O.K.
A Magical
Musical Commedy
You will laugh 'till you cry!
Don't miss it!
What's more, just above the head of the second ladt from the right in the back row is another poster, on the wall behind her, which says "Cheltenham Colisseum"
So my relatives were a long way from their base in Yorkshire!
But this still leaves unexplained the name of the theatre preceding "Colisseum" The original photo does not reveal anything new, except that there is some damage along the top of the photo, so the last character of the mystery word consists of an L-shape, with a diagonal going up and to the right, and another diagonal from that one, going up and to the left. The apparent white horizontal line at the top is the damage.
Cheers
Tim
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Well ... I now see that the damage I talked about got cropped out of the scan, so my description was probably just more confusing!!!
Tim
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Four last letters .. ... GATE
Ambers
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Tom,
I'm glad you have a better picture,googling around Cheltenham ,there is a theatre called "Everyman"it was buit in the victorian era,and it has a look of your photo.
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Well, I'll be...
I know the Everyman well!
I don't recognise it from the canopy, but the theatre has undergone a few name changes and transformations since the 1920s. Must find out more!
A ;)
Edit: Not sure about the ref to Cheltenham: http://www.everymantheatre.org.uk/information/history.html
There is another theatre still here, the Playhouse, but I can't find any mention of a Colisseum.
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If anyone belongs to the Cheltenham Local History Society, they apparently have something about The Coliseum in their journal of this year.
http://beehive.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=SiteHome&ID=2116&PageID=9405
(Scroll way down to near the bottom)
:)
K.
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what about this photo of the everyman
looks similar to me.
Kev.
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There certainly are similarities in the photos, but it appears that the Everyman Theatre used to be called the 'The New Theatre & Opera House' which opened in 1891. It changed its name to Everyman in 1960.
http://www.everymantheatre.org.uk/information/history.html
From a 1913 trade directory, these are the theatres listed for Cheltenham:
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Don't think it's the same theatre as The Everyman as there is no stone column as there is in the Colusseum picture.
Jean
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The Hippodrome is now a Bingo Hall, I think and is a Portland Stone type edifice, so it isn't that.
Maybe Tim should email the contact for the Cheltenham Local History Society?
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Don't know about the theatre, but I DO know about the Kiddies. Gar was Joseph GARibaldi Kiddie, born 1864. Nor, his son, was NORman Chilton Kiddie, born 1898. They had Widnes connections, and Gar is buried there.
Doug.
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Hurray!
Welcome Doug! You will be a great addition to Rootschat with specialist knowledge like that!
Are the Kiddies any relation?
Thanks for putting us out of our misery
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Thanks, Arranroots - they are relatives, of a sort! My grandfather's brother married a sister of Gar Kiddie.
Doug.
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Thanks to all for your continued sleuthing.
I've gone back with my magnifying glass, and the poster in the background definitely says "Cheltenham Coliseum", and on the frame it says "K.L. Beard's Theatres" (or possibly M.L. ...). The other thing that struck me is that everything about the building looks brand new, which could explain why it isn't in Koromo's 1913 trade list, the photo being from 1923. In fact, perhaps this was the opening night for the theatre, which would justify a big group photo.
And great information from Doug ... I'm sure your distant relatives and mine knew each other, since mine were an extended Yorkshire-based theatrical family.
Cheers
Tim
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Tim, I don't know why I didn't think of this before! :-[
Coliseum Theatre, north side of Albion Street. Opened 22 Sept. 1913 as Gillsmith's Hippodrome, preserving facade of former Conservative Club. Renamed Coliseum 1919; a cinema from 1931; later Poole's Coliseum, after the owners, who operated several cinemas in Gloucester and Cheltenham (Moore, p. 33). Latterly a bingo/snooker hall and club.
from: http://www.cheltgaz.ukpc.net/
Unless it has changed radically, I don't think the photo is of this building - I will try to find you a photo.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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This is not it, but the bigger building to the right IS: ::) ;D
http://www.picturesofengland.com/England/Gloucestershire/Cheltenham/pictures2
A ;)
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Great stuff, Arranroots! Many thanks.
By the way ... Doug ... do you have photos of the Kiddies? I would imagine they must be in the photo, since it's advertising their own show. The older man sitting directly behind the poster would seem to be of an age that fits your birth year, and the younger man sitting next to him could well be his son.
Cheers
Tim
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I don't mean your birth year, of course, I mean the birth year you provided for Gar ;D
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Would the local
rags newspapers for Cheltenham have photos of the building/various events there?
Pauline
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Tim -
No, I don't have any photos of the Kiddies, which is why I was pleased to have come across the one you posted.
Thanks a lot!
Doug.
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Well, Doug, that's a nice accidental benefit of me just trying to find out more about a mystery photo. It's also what RootsChat seems to do so well!
Cheers
Tim
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I can add a bit to this. I'm reseaching my Family History and my Great uncle was Henry George Beard who was the Owner of the Coliseum from 1919 to the 1940s. Perhaps the poster says H G Beard? This is a great find for me and I'll add it to my files! :D
The local history society published some articles in its journals a few years ago. I've oredered copies of these and if anything relevant to the thread crops up I'll post it.
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Here's a picture I've found but unfortunately it dates to 1913 when it was called the hippodrome. However, it looks identical to the Coliseum photo on p3 here so confirms the location. The building has been empty for some time and proposal made more than once for demolition and redevelopment. Sad, but a sign of the times. At least there are images saved showing better times.
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Hi Pogle and welcome to Rootschat!
That's amazing! Always good to see a connection to these kind of things!
Nina
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Thanks Pogle. It's amazing that, 4 years after the previous message, this thread is still proving useful to people. I initiated the thread, but I had to go back to remind myself what it was all about!
Cheers
Tim
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hello, i'm not sure if i'm doing this right, but, here goes. my maiden name is helen(eileen) corr. i am trying to find siblings of my great and great, great grandfathers. my grt grandfather was william corr born c1852, he married esther mckechnie. he had a sister, catherine who married a james mooney. their parents were john corr 1812-1880 and sarah keenan 1830-1894. they lived in glasgow scotland, but were originally from northern ireland, names i know are magharafelt co. derry, co.down (morgan's farm) and co. tyrone and maybe belfast. i was wondering if we have any connection or if you know anything to help me in my search. thanks, eileen.
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Hi,
I've received my CLHS journals and they've given me a great deal of information about my great uncle. The 1923 period is recorded in Journal 23, 2007 and I'd recommend a copy to anyone interested in the wider hsitory.
Anyway, the programme for 1923 included:
Dick Whittington Pantomime which opened on New Year's Day for one week;
Randolph Sutton Theatre Company in March;
The Gay Beggars, a costume concert party in July;
The Beggar's Opera (English Opera Company) September;
Datas, The memory man October;
2 Pantomimes, The House that Jack Built and Dick Whitington and his cat.
Not sure if this hels anyone, but one of thses may the troupe in the photo.
The owner proprotor was H G Bear, Manager H Greenland.