RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Caithness => Topic started by: bettyespana on Sunday 01 October 06 21:42 BST (UK)
-
My ggggrandparents are Alexander Sinclair/Elizabeth Sutherland m.Clyth,Caithness 5 Dec 1788.
The problem I have is that I don't know who their parents were.On the copy of the Old Parish Register from New Register House it only states the fathers names.John Sinclair father of Alexander & what looks like Alexander Robertson father of Elizabeth(it is very badly written & definitely not Sutherland.
I have looked on LDS & have found only 2 possible sets of parents for Alexander Sinclair:
1.John Sinclair/Bessy Rosy b.of Alexander 19.7.1763
2.John Sinclair/Christian Calder b.of Alexander 15.2.1769.
As far as Elizabeth Sutherland is concerned I have drawn a blank.
Please is there anyone out there who can help,it has taken me 5 yrs to find that I have Scottish ancestors via my paternal Granny & I would dearly love to find the rest of my Scottish heritage.
Cheers
bettyespana
-
You'll need to scroll through the records at Scotlands people - and its a PPV site (pay per view).
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
I'm stuck in the early 1800s and am having trouble getting further back - my family was in Orkney.
BD
-
Hi Burrowdigger,
I have tried scrolling through Scotlandspeople & actually ordered the certificate I have via them.
Unfortunately being a pensioner I cannot afford too many of their PPV fees,so I am hoping someone out there may have the information I need.
I know I am probably clutching at straws,but I have posts /enquiries in different chat rooms.
Thank you for your prompt reply to my enquiry & future Good Luck in your own research.
Cheers
bettyespanas
-
do you have the names of children of Alex and Eliz.
the naming pattern of children in those days in Scotland is often a good guide.
1st son and 2nd daug named after father's parents
2nd son and 1st daug named after mother's parents.
not always accurate - children not registered etc.
the John Sinclair/Eliz (Bess)Rosie m 1749 Canisbay I believe were from Stroma!
the John Sinclair /Christian Calder m 1768 in Wick Parish
is this your Alex and Eliz 1841 - makes him b 1769 app although ages can be out in
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
not my family so far although I do have Sinclair Canisbay and Sutherland from Lybster.
Tricia
-
Hi there,
To tell you the truth I am at a loss with these two.
I have a copy of their marriage (not a very clear extract)
This is what it appears to say:
Sinclair Alexander in ?????? was matrimonially contracted to Elisabeth Sutherland in Clyth Caithness for the man John Sinclair in Clyth and for the woman Alexander Robertson in Clyth.
I acquired this from GROS via Scotlandspeople & it is a record of an extract from a Register Of Proclamations of Banns & Marriages. Dec 5th 1788
As far as children other than my Paternal GGGrandfather:
10 Apr 1802 Sinclair Kennedy S to Alex.Sinclair/Eliz.Sinclair Wick Caithness :
Someone sent me this as possible siblings for Kennedy
Janet Sinclair b.23 Nov 1794
Jean Sinclair Ch.28 Nov 1797
Henry Sinclair Ch:2 Apr 1806
Robert Sinclair Ch:14 May 1804
John Sinclair Ch:6 Nov 1795
Benjamin Sinclair b 10 Apr 1802(looks as if Twin of Kennedy)
James Sinclair Ch:19 Nov 1799
These apparently were referenced C110432
My problem is where do I go from here?
The possibles I have from Scotlandspeople don't tie in with the order of these names as you have suggested.
I am very grateful for the info you have sent & will certainly have another look at it,but would appreciate any further advice.
Regards
bettyespana 8)
-
The children you list b to Alex Sinclair and Eliz Sinclair Wick. C110432
may not be children of Alex Sinclair and Eliz Sutherland
In Wick 1793 Alexander Sinclair m Elizabeth Sinclair.
whereas you quote your Alex Sinclair m Eliz Sutherland 1788 in Wick.
Have you traced back to Kennedy Sinclair - his parents 1802 show as both named Sinclair. ??? Did you have his death cert and who did he marry.
The scottish records usually show the mother's maiden when birth is listed.
Is this your family 1841 census
INFORMATION REMOVED
If so this Kennedy I have a cert for death 1872 in Edinburgh. Have you got it.
It shows parents as Alex and Elizabeth (both names Sinclair).
If this Kennedy is definitely yours then maybe we need to rethink parents.
I will keep looking.
Happy for you to send me any positive data your have. Not the best of names in Caithness - so many of them ???
Tricia
born in Wick, Caithness
-
BIRTH 10/04/1802 SINCLAIR KENNEDY
ALEXR. SINCLAIR/ELIZ. SINCLAIR U WICK 043/00 0003
Information removed due to copyright violation. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
and possibly a Jean 1794 although mother just shows Eliz.
Can't find any so far with mother a sutherland.
I reckon the 1841 census in my email 9.40 today was the Sinclair Elizabeth.
In 1841 your Kennedy was in Sarclet Wick - next to some of my family.
Tricia
-
I stand corrected I checked the birth for Kennedy Sinclair from Scotlandspeople & yes they are both Sinclairs.
KennedySinclair & Alice Mackay are the named parents on my Great Grandmother Sarah Elizabeth Sinclair & George Evans Marriage Cert 5.7.1869 St Giles district,Edinburgh.which I have a copy of.
Kennedy Sinclair was in 92 Highlanders /Chelsea Pensioner.
In 1851 the family lived at 54 Dunbar Close Edinburgh & Kennedy was a Licensed Porter.
In 1861 they lived at 29 Charles Street,St Giles district.
Back to the drawing board but thanks for all this,if there is anything I can possibly help you with I will.
In the meantime
Cheers :) ;)
bettyespana
-
better sit down bettyespana! :)
Kennedy & his siblings belong to Alexander Sutherland SINCLAIR at Gansclett & Elizabeth SINCLAIR who were married 1793, Alexander the son of "Holy John" SINCLAIR at Gansclett & Christina CALDER, John being a son of Donald SINCLAIR the sailor & Catherine SINCLAIR, Donald being the son of David SINCLAIR of Broynach whose father was Sir James SINCLAIR 2nd of Murkle whose father James SINCLAIR 1st of Murkle married Elizabeth STEWART daughter of "bad" lord robert STEWART, one of the many illegitimate children to Charles V of Scotland (by Euphemia ELPHINSTONE), grandson of henry VII of England.
Alexander SINCLAIR at Clyth & Elizabeth SUTHERLAND (Betty MCRYRIE) were contracted to married 5 Jan 1788 and married 2 Jan 1789, Alexander's father being James "Saltie" SINCLAIR the chamberlain, son of Donald the sailor, son of david of Broynach, etc as above. James the chamberlain was married twice and I am descended from a son to his second marriage, "Long John" SINCLAIR who married Barbara CORMACK.
In other words, Alexander who married Elizabeth SUTHERLAND and Alexander who married Elizabeth SINCLAIR were first cousins being descended from half-brothers.
Will that do for starters?
Peter
-
oops, the two Alexanders'fathers were full brothers, not half-brothers
-
Hello Peter,
Well you have certainly dumbfounded me,without a doubt.
Somewhere along the way,I had been told there was a possible connection to the heirarchy but I never expected this.
A couple of items in your information sound rather intriguing.
1.Why Donald (the sailor) is there a story behind him being called this?
2.Why John (holy John) is there also a story behind this name?
Was James the chamberlain in the royal house or where?
Please tell me more if you can.
Betty : :o :o
-
Hi Peter
I am interested in this family.
David of " Broynach " Sinclair AND Janet Ewing Had I believe a son David b c 1701 in Caithness who married Margaret MORE or MACKAY. Do you have any further info?
MORE in Caithness being my family.
Tricia
-
Hello Betty & Tricia
There is way too much information to send via Rootschat, it will have to be done by private email with attachments etc. I have sent you both messages with an email address for you to use. You will not be disappointed!
regards
peter
-
Hello Betty & Tricia
What follows this explanation is merely the first paragraph of a very long concluding letter by Thomas SINCLAIR as part of a correspondence in the letters to the editor columns of the old caithness newspaper, the Northern Ensign, that went on regarding the succession of the earldom of caithness, and much more besides, during 1889-1891. Yes, David SINCLAIR who married Margaret MORE was the son of David SINCLAIR of Broynach & Janet EWEN, Broynach's older brother being the earl of caithness. In the 1760s the earldom should have gone to David & margaret's son, captain James SINCLAIR H.E.I.C.S. in Reiss, but Broynach's second marriage to his housekeeper Janet EWEN was in question. In the period 1889-1891 Thomas SINCLAIR was going in to bat for the descendants of Donald SINCLAIR the sailor, the younger brother of David SINCLAIR who married Margaret MORE. By then David's heir-male descendants had died out. Thomas fixed the claim to the earldom on the grandson James SINCLAIR of Alexander SINCLAIR who married Elizabeth Sutherland, Alexander the grandfather being the son to the first marriage of James SINCLAIR the chamberlain, son of Donald the sailor.. Another correspondent to the Northern Ensign was "Scrutator" (Rev. John SINCLAIR), who claimed the earldom for himself as a descendant of William SINCLAIR who went to Avoch in Ross-shire, who is also supposed to be a son of Donald the sailor. Thomas and Scrutator went head to head in their letters as to whether James the chamberlain or William was the elder son. James & William had plenty of siblings including "Holy John" the father of Alexander SINCLAIR who married Elizabeth SINCLAIR the parents of Kennedy SINCLAIR. I have heard from a descendant of John, Kennedy's brother.
I need your addresses to send the rest of this stuff (112 pages of a word document!) as an attachment.
"THE BROYNACHS AND THE EARLDOM OF CAITHNESS
CONCLUDING EVIDENCE, WITH PEDIGREE.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE NORTHERN ENSIGN.
"SlR,—It was calculated, by a general analysis, that the birth year of James, the tenth earl of Caithness, Captain Sinclair, H.E.l.C.S., was 1744. New light as to this most important date is to be gained from close attention to the evidence of Alexander Ross and Alexander Macleod in Ratter's proof of 1767. The latter accompanied David, the father of James, part of the way from Thurso to Wick, when he had the rout to go as a recruit to join the British forces in Flanders for the Dutch war. David Sinclair signed on the road four or five miles from Thurso the confession of paternity of James, which Macleod wrote out for the mother, Margaret More, who had followed the departing soldier, the child yet unborn. If the date of this incident can be fixed, the birth of Captain James will be ascertained within a few months."
-
Hi I have a Jean Calder Sinclair and her son Alexander George Sinclair b 1923
jean married James Swanson Rosie
does this make any sense to you have a lot of info on the Rosies
sybil
-
My connections with the Sinclair family are via my paternal grandmother Emma Moss nee Evans.
Her father was Kennedy Sinclair who was born in Caithness abt 1802.His brother John born abt 1795 married Ann Oag & they had three children.
Helen 1825
Alexander 1829
George 1831 who married Margaret Calder b.1832?
Maybe connected to your family,what do you think?
There is also a Calder marriage further back in the 18th century between a John Sinclair & Christine Calder.
Not sure as yet where the Rosie connection fits.
Regards
bettyespana
-
Will check it out and get back to you , been out in the garden all day, ,
not sure how fit i am at the monent ???
Sybil
-
Am also related to Alexander Sinclair and Betty Sutherland but you don't have my great great great grandmother in their list of children, her name was Sidney. I managed to trace some of her brothers and sisters and Kennedy seemed to be one of them as was Benjamin. Sidney was born in about 1798. Cannot find a birth certificate for her but I did find her death certificate and her parents are named on it.
-
Am also related to Alexander Sinclair and Betty Sutherland but you don't have my great great great grandmother in their list of children, her name was Sidney. I managed to trace some of her brothers and sisters and Kennedy seemed to be one of them as was Benjamin. Sidney was born in about 1798. Cannot find a birth certificate for her but I did find her death certificate and her parents are named on it.
[/
Will send information in a private message.
bettyespana
-
Hi Stroma61
Email me at (*)
I am peterd500 who left an explanatory message earlier in the thread at Rootschat which explains things. We are related if Sidney is your ancestor, via her grandfather James SINCLAIR the chamberlain who married twice. You descend from his first marriage to Anna ROBERTSON and I descend from his second marriage to Elspet SINCLAIR. I see that Bettyespana with whom I have corresponded is sending you a private message as well. I think she descends from Kennedy SINCLAIR a grandson of John SINCLAIR who was a brother to the chamberlain. Kennedy's parents were Alexander SINCLAIR & Elizabeth SINCLAIR who married 29 Nov 1793 at Wick parish.
You have mixed up two Alexander SINCLAIRs who were in fact first cousins to each other who each married in the same period. Sidney SINCLAIR and Kennedy SINCLAIR were second cousins. Benjamin 10 Apr 1802 is user-contributed LDS patron data (which is the only place the name appears) and is therefore suspect - I think he is actually Kennedy who was baptised 10 Apr 1802. I've seen the register on microfilm and it definitely says Kennedy not Benjamin.
Sidney SINCLAIR was the daughter of Alexander SINCLAIR & Elizabeth SUTHERLAND also known as Betty MCRYRIE (I think she married MCRYRIE first) who married 02 Jan 1789 at Latheron parish. Sidney married James LAING. I have made good progress with the her descendants recently including contacted a couple in the US and some in a branch that went to London.
I have also contacted descendants of Sidney's brother James SINCLAIR who married Catherine SUTHERLAND. and her brother George SINCLAIR who married Francisina SINCLAIR.
It looks like James LAING was from Morayshire which is why you may have had trouble finding out anything about him.
peterd500
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Thanks for all the information on the Sinclairs. I have been trying to find out about them for years but have never managed to get any further back than Alexander. The funny thing is one of my mother's aunt's used to tell the story of the family being descended from the Earl but we just thought it was a story.
The only information I have about Sidney Laing was from her death certificate and the fact she died a pauper aged 86 in Latheron. Her nephew James was the informant on the death certificate. The name Sidney has been in my family since. One of my grandfather's sisters was called Sidney and so was one of his aunts. An uncle was called Sinclair so they kept the names in the family.
-
Thanks for all the information on the Sinclairs. I have been trying to find out about them for years but have never managed to get any further back than Alexander. The funny thing is one of my mother's aunt's used to tell the story of the family being descended from the Earl but we just thought it was a story.
The only information I have about Sidney Laing was from her death certificate and the fact she died a pauper aged 86 in Latheron. Her nephew James was the informant on the death certificate. The name Sidney has been in my family since. One of my grandfather's sisters was called Sidney and so was one of his aunts. An uncle was called Sinclair so they kept the names in the family.
I see that Peter Dillon has contacted you about your Sinclairs.As Peter has done more research within the family & has far more experience than myself I think he would be the best person for you to contact.The info he gave me was indeed of great help to me & I wish you well in your searches.
Happy New Year
Betty
-
hi peterd500.
i have just been looking at what you have wrote here about the sinclair/rosies familys,
i know this was written quite a while ago but wondering if you can help me on the rosies,
i had been told that a decendant of mine alexander rosie married marjery sinclair, and her parents where john sinclair b1721 and elizabeth rosie b1728. all i have found out is alexander rosie was
maybe the son of my 3or4 great grandparents, i am still looking into this but any help will be greatly appreciated, thank you for reading my message.
my kindest regards..........jean............. :)
-
Hi Jean
Unfortunately I am unable to help.
Peter
-
To Gemma,
I don't know if it's your family but I have a reference to a John Sinclair (christened 15Oct1721 in Canisbay) married to a Bess Rosie. John's parents were William Sinclair & Margaret Sinclair. Bess' parents were Alexander Rosie & Margaret Kennedy.
The children of John & Bess were Catherine (b1750), William (b1753), Mary (b1760), Alexander (b1763), Walter (b1765) and John (b1768).
Only further info I have is on Catherine's & Walter's line
Bruce