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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Acorn on Saturday 21 October 06 01:18 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find Patrick Brophy's date of birth so I can tie some information together. As far as I know in 1951 he was either living at Ducie street or Cecil street Manchester. Any help getting his date of birth would be very much appreciated.
John.
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Hi there
Sorry I don't have the information - but just so as we know who it is being looked for - I assume it's:
Patrick Joseph BROPHY
Born abt 1877 - possibly Ireland
Died in Manchester 1952 aged 75 and buried southern cemetery
More info on old topic here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,17708.msg937705.html#msg937705
Have you obtained his death cert John?
Any information on it?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Yes that's the Patrick I'm looking for. I haven't tried to obtain a death cert as I only need his date of birth. I am not too sure if I can get a copy online, or if the costs are quite high. I'm a bit of a novice at all this family research so any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
Regards
John.
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Looking at your previous posts on this person, you know he married Ann Gilcrist (Gilchrist) and had a son in 1925.
There are lots of Patrick Brophy's on the IGI and also on the censuses so it would make sense to try and establish his fathers name to help narrow it down a bit.
If you look for the marriage of Patrick & Ann on the GRO index and buy a copy of their marriage cert (cost is £7) it will give you that information
You can now search the full GRO index yourself free of charge at
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx Choose “Complete BMD Index Ranges & Images 1837-1983
If you only have a dial up internet connection and you live in the UK, you may find it easier to view the same index at your nearest main library as the images take a while to download. If you have broadband, they only take a few seconds
The partially transcribed index (freebmd) can also be searched on the same website or at http://freebmd.rootsweb.com
Copy certificates can be obtained online at www.gro.gov.uk
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Hello CaroleW,
As far as I know Patric was never married to Ann as he was a catholic and had already been married previously, probably in Ireland. The reason I need Patrick's date of birth is so that I can find his fathers name. From a website which I think is ran by the church of Jesus Christ latter day saints, I have found two Patric Brophy's born in Ireland 1877. One father is called John Brophy the same as my self and the other is called William Brophy. The information with each name gives a date of birth for each of the Patrick Brophy's. If I can find a match for his date of birth It will help to confirm his parents names.
I do not know what the GRO index stands for but I will have a look at the links you posted. I suppose any census covering 1925 to 1951 would give me the information I need, as he would have been in Manchester for most of that time in either of the two streets previously mentioned.
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Hi Acorn
The census documents are sealed for 100 years after they were taken so you'll be waiting a while yet ::)
The Electoral Register or Trade Directories might help but I think they are only in the Central Library in Manchester :-\ perhaps someone will correct me if I am wrong.
GRO = General register Office - this is the place that keeps all the Birth Marriage & Death certificate information for England & Wales. You can order certificates online from them.
Good luck
SandraC
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Was James (your father) the only child of Patrick & Ann or did he have any OLDER siblings born to Patrick & Ann
Can you confirm that your father was born 1925 - as per your previous post - as the GRO index does not have a James Brophy or a James Gilchrist with a mothers name of Gilchrist/Gilcrist in 1925
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Hi John
As well as CaroleW's important question re: other siblings with Ann GILC(H)RIST and James' birth ...
Robert BROPHY: You mentioned that Patrick also had a son Robert - I presumed from his first Marriage . What else do you know about Robert? Tracing him - finding out where he lived, when, where and who with - may lead to Patrick's records that you're after.
Patrick BROPHY: Death Certificate - the document could contain important information. Regarding where he died, his age as recorded, and the informant..
Getting any certificate is always a risk of it being waste money, but you never know - could be a goldmine too.
Also, what did he do for a living throughout out the years? And, did you find out if there was anyone else buried in the same Grave as Patrick - and who he was buried next to?
WW1: At age approx 37 in 1914, Patrick was old enough AND young enough to join up & play a part. The Nat. Archives do hold a medal card in the name of Patrick J BROPHY, in the Royal Irish Fusiliers, Regiment Number G/240; Rank Private
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
To see the one I found: Search : patrick j brophy
Some information on what you might expect from a Medal Card here - they may not hold much, but can identify details to assist getting a full military record.
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ANGUS/2004-05/1083665033
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,60888.0.html
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals-buchan.asp
James BROPHY, your Dad - I assume you have seen his actual birth record, which will confirm important details such as address of where he was born, his registered name, who informed of the birth, his mother's name / maiden name etc.
"Local 1918 Absent Voters Register" - perhaps this may help if Patrick is listed in earlier Lancashire records. But I believe you need to know an address, as it's not indexed by name - this is where you can utilise address' given on Dad's birth record, etc.... See more info here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,172206.0.html
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thank you very much for all your replies, its given me quite a bit to look into. I didn't realize the census was not available for 100 years.
Just to clarify My Grandmother who went by the name Annie Brophy even though she was never married to Patrick had two sons. One son was James Joseph Brophy my father the other son was George Brophy. As far as I know Patrick was not Georges father but brought George up as his own. Patrick did have a son called Robert in his first marriage, he may have had other children too, but I know nothing of that side of the family.
I don't have a birth certificate for my father but I have come across his death certificate which gives his date of birth as 19/03/1925 it gives his place of birth as Glossop, in Derbyshire. I happen to remember my father telling me that he was born in a railway waiting room at a place called Dinting which I think is near Glossop.
I'm not too sure of the Gilchrist spelling but I may be able to find it with some more rooting through old papers. I have come across an old will of my fathers which was written 09/07/56, at that time it states his address as being 79, Cecil street, Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester.
CaroleW, you mentioned there was no record of an Ann Gilchrist with a son called James Brophy. Perhaps it's because she was going by the name of Ann or Annie Brophy, one more thing is that her son George was about a year older than my father James Brophy.
If the above information yields any more clues please let me know. In the mean time I am going to see if I can find any more old papers. Thanks to all your replies I have quite a few leads to follow, its really appreciated.
Regards
John.
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There is definitely no James Brophy b 1925 but there is a James P Gilchrist in the June quarter of 1925 Glossop Volume 7B Page 1520 but mothers maiden name is shown as Shaw
If your fathers birth was not registered until a couple of weeks after his birth, it would fall in the June quarter
Only the mothers maiden surname is shown-not her christian name- and there was definitely no birth registration for a James Brophy with a mothers surname of either Gilchrist or Brophy in 1925.
I looked on the full GRO index from 1924-1926 and the only James Brophy was James L Brophy mothers maiden name Brophy March quarter 1924 West Derby Liverpool 8B 802.
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CaroleW, thank you for all your efforts. I have found my grandmothers death certificate and it states a maiden surname of Gilcrist but this could be the registrars guess at the spelling. The only thing I can do is try and get a copy of my fathers birth certificate, but if its not on this GRO index does that mean the birth was not registered. Anyhow I will follow the link to the GRO index you gave, to see if I can turn anything up. If I find anything I will post it here.
Regards
John.
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I have just realized, my Gran was born in Liverpool, and as she gave birth while travelling through Glossop she may have still been living in Liverpool at that time 1924 -25. Perhaps she registered the birth in Liverpool, that's the only explanation I can think of. The year discrepancy may just be someones error when stating his date of birth.
Regards
John
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John
There is no James Brophy born anywhere between 1924-1926 with a mothers maiden name of Gilchrist/Gilcrist.
The only one with a maiden name of Brophy is the one I posted details of in my last reply. As it was registered in Liverpool in 1924 it may be him but he was James L Brophy not James J
As you know his parents names, you could always send for a copy of the birth cert but put a condition on your application that you only want it if the parents were Patrick & Ann/Annie. If it’s the wrong one – you will only be charged a search fee which I think is around £3-£4
Alternatively - you may have been given the wrong birthyear so it may be an idea to search the GRO index for births 1922-1923 and 1927-1928 just in case
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I have just been looking at that GRO index and as you say my father does not seem to be listed, but neither does George Brophy either, it seems a bit strange. I will look at more years in case the year is wrong as you said, and try and obtain a birth certificate.
I have managed to confirm that my grandmother was called Gilchrist as I looked her birth record up on that GRO index which is very useful. Thanks for all your help, I will keep you posted on any progress I make.
Regards
John.
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I visited my mother today, she told me that for a time Patric Brophy and Annie Brophy / Gilchrist lived in Scotland, Glasgow she thought. This leads me to think that my dad James Brophy and his half brother George Brophy may have had their births registered in Scotland.
Is there a similar index to the GRO one for Scotland that I can look up. If not is there any other way to confirm if my fathers birth was registered in Scotland.
Regards
John.
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Hi
This is an extract from the Scottish GRO website
To respect privacy of living people, internet access has been limited to birth records over 100 years old, marriage records over 75 years, and death records over 50 years.
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Thanks CaroleW,
I've just come across the Scottish GRO web site and found that statement. It looks like I would have to write to them or email them so they can do a search for me. I don't think I would get any real useful information from a copy of the birth certificate, except it may indicate to me where may grandparents were living at that time.
Appart from trying to dig out old documents at home, I think my next step would be to try and find my grandads grave to see if there is a date of birth on it. If not I should be able to send off for his death certificate which will have his date of birth on.
I also found out from my mother that Patrick worked as a painter in Liverpool, possibly on the docks. His last form of employment was as a Hotel proprietor of the Brofield commercial hotel, 79, Cecil Street, Manchester. I do have an old newspaper clipping somewhere which I have been trying to find. It shows a picture of the brofield hotel, as during the war a large bomb came down on a parachute, fortunately it did not explode. It did considerable damage as it went through the building all the way to the basement. It then had to be dug out once it was made safe. I new he ran a hotel but I was not sure if it was Cecil street or Ducie street, my mother seems to think Cecil street. So this is another avenue to explore. I think the news paper was the manchester evening news, but I do not know the date, of the article.
Regards
John.
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If not I should be able to send off for his death certificate which will have his date of birth on.
A 1952 death cert will NOT have his date of birth on it - only his age on death which you already have
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Thanks for letting me know, that's saved me a few pounds. My only hope of getting his date of birth is to either find it on his grave stone or track down some other document that would have it on. Is it possible to obtain a copy of a medical card for example, or do you have any better idea's.
If I can be of any assistance to you please let me know as I really do appreciate your help.
Regards
John.
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A medical card pre-1852 - I doubt it.
The death cert will tell you who reported the death and their relationship to him. It will also tell you where he died.
Do you know for sure that he has an actual gravestone?
Whilst many gravestones show a full DoB - there are many that just show a year of birth or an age on death. It's a chance you will have to take
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I don't know if there is a grave stone with a full DOB I'm just hoping. If there isn't, I think I've come up against a brick wall for now.
Ambley did say he may have been in the Army but I have no recollection of my dad mentioning that. Anyhow I will keep digging, something must turn up sooner or later.
Regards
John.
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Hi John
How is your search going?
Form earlier in this topic:
Patrick did have a son called Robert in his first marriage, he may have had other children too, but I know nothing of that side of the family.
Have you tried to trace this first marriage and family; a first marriage certificate could tell you Patrick's father's name at least. The birth of Robert would tell you his mother's name to look for a marriage match.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks Ambly,
I have not done any research for a few weeks now as I have been very busy with work. I can tell you that I found my granddad's grave stone at southern cemetery, unfortunately no date of birth marked on, only date of death, 21/02/52.
I haven't tried to trace his first family because I do not know what his wifes name was, or when and where they were married. I assume he would have been married somewhere in Ireland probably Dublin. The only thing I know about his first marriage is that he had at least two sons, I don't know about any daughters. One son was called Bob or Robert and the other was called George. So I haven't got a lot to go on at the moment.
I have ordered the book from the library which was suggested to me in an earlier message, it gives a list of the Dublin metropolitan police. I am hoping it will give details of my great granddad and his family. If so it may help me to tie some information together. It will probably be a couple of weeks before I get this book. I will let you know if I find anything.
Regards
John.
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i am chris brophy.grandson of patrick joseph brophy.who was born 9th of may1876.buried in southern cemetry manchester1952.his father was james brophy and mother mary brophy formely smith.he was born in coombe hospital dublin.fathers adress was64 the coombe dublin.patrick was orphaned at a early age and was brought up by a uncle who was indeed a dublin police officer.he went to sea at 14 as a cabin boy.sailed around the world 3 times.returned to ireland and married and had a family.he was by this time a staunch republican.but fled ireland never to return.leaving his family behind.after a bounty was put on his head.settled in liverpool .met anne gilchrist.formely shaw.they lived together never married.moved to manchester where they brought up 2 sons.two of his sons from his marrage in ireland.bob and i think tom later settled in bury and rochdale areas.hope this helps.chris.
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superb Fullmonty I hope th original poster comes back and see's your reply