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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: Blue_angel2 on Thursday 26 October 06 07:56 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Am hoping that some kind person out there in Scotland may be able to find out some information on Emery YOUNG, b 1832 Invernesshire and his family of origin for me. He was a labourer.
He emigrated to South Australia in about 1853, but his father's name was not given on his marriage certificate.(He married in SA). I do not know if his whole family emigrated, or only him, but will search for shipping records to SA next. I have only just received his death certificate, and finally know where he actually came from.
Any help to find out information from the Scottish branch would be much appreciated.
Thank you,
B
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Hi B
I cannot see anything for an Emery YOUNG in all of IGI (only 24 entries with Emery and variants as first name) and the 1841 Census. I've looked at name variants also for EMERY: Amer, Imry, Emmor etc.
The closest I can see is an Emery MacDonald b. 1832 in Inverness-shire on the 1841 Census. There are a few other Emery's but all with a different surname???
Regards.
Monica
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I wonder if Emery was his middle name (that he may have chosen to go by) rather than his first (christened) name?
Monica
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Hi Like Monica, I've searched the OPRs, 1841 and 1851 and can't find him - or an E* Young.
What exactly does the death cert say? Do you have any info from immigration records?
Gadget
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Hi Monica and Gadget,
Thank you both very much for going to that trouble. I hadn't actually thought to check the IGI again after finding out Emery came from Scotland, as i hadn't been able to find him on a broad search before.
Unfortunately, after putting up my request, i spent all afternoon going through shipping passenger lists to SA trying to find him, and have had no luck so far at all. If i can find him, then i will try to find out more about his journey and origins if possible. I have previously tried other states shipping just in case he came to SA from another state.
Although there is only the single name Emery on his death certificate, and on his marriage record, (and also on the birth records of his children) I guess that he could have been ........ Emery, and used his second name. I thought with such an uncommon name he would be a lot easier to find. ???
In one record (in SA) it was spelt as Emory and his surname is written as "Youngs" on his death certificate, though that is definitely incorrect.
All that the death certificate says, apart from the death, residence and undertaker details, were that he was age 76 (on Oct 21st 1908, when he died), labourer, born Invernesshire Sotland, in Oz for 55 years (so estimate he came out 1853, give or take a year). And that he had the 13 children out here (whose details I have - was hoping to track down some of their descendants and hopefully find out more about him, but no luck there either yet. Some of his grandsons in other branches also include the name Emery as a second name)
I wonder if his mother's name may have been MacDonald if you found an Emery MacDonald born 1832 Inverness. perhaps she was an unmarried mum???? Do you happen to have any other details of that family? How big was Invernesshire back then?
Thank you very much,
cheers, :)
Barb
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Hi Barb
Invernessshire was/is quite extensive:
http://scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-inverness.htm
Stretching from Inverness in the East to the outer Islands in the West.
I'll have a look for Macdonalds.
Gadget
PS No Emery Macdonald on the IGI for 1830 - 1834
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Wow :o that is a big area!!! Looks predominantly like islands. Thank you so much for the link to the map.
Can you suggest any way of narrowing down where in Invernesshire he may have come from? (like are there any lists that you know of which have population density for particular names in different places?)
Would you mind having a look and seeing if there are any YOUNGE or YOUNGS in Invernesshire in the records you have access to? Just trying a long shot- perhaps it was Younge or Youngs changed over the years to Young. Thank you.
cheers,
Barb
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Hi Barb
This is a bit difficult since neither name is really what I would say is 'Scottish', especially not Highland. I did a quick check and found most Youngs were in Inverness and surrounding area itself.
The period you are talking about covers the Highland Clearances when many Highlanders moved. Alternatively, his father could have been army and stationed in Inverness at the time. It really is needle and haystacks.
Sorry.
Gadget
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Thanks anyway G, very much appreciate you checking for me. What were the "Highland Clearances"?
cheers,
Barb
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It's a long story, Barb, with a variety of interpretations but basically the landlords wanted to enclose their lands to make them more profitable. This entailed moving/evicting the people living on the land - hence the great outflow of Highlanders to the large cities and America, etc. All very sad. Finally, there was a commision set up in the 1880s (The Napier Commission) which resulted in The Crofting Act.
The best thing might be to Google "Highland Clearances". There's masses of literature on it.
Gadget
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Just a thought that might help in searching for Emery's family. In those times, it was common to follow what is referred to as Scottish naming patterns when parents chose the name of their children. Not always followed to the letter, sometimes with variations in the order, but it goes something like this:
* the first son was named after his paternal grandfather
* the second son after his maternal grandfather
* the third son after his father
* the first daughter after her maternal grandmother
* the second daughter after her paternal grandmother
* the third daughter after her mother
The other thing to look at is the use of middle names in children's names as you can also get clues from that. I'll find the details of the Emery MacDonald I found this morning and post them for you later (children's supper awaits!).
Regards.
Monica
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The MacDonald family at Nunton Mow, Kingussie in Inverness-shire. Everyone showing as born in Inverness-shire:
John, 50, agri. lab.
Janet, 40
Emer, 9
Malcolm, 5
Barbra, 3
James, 1
I've just looked at IGI and can see their children. Mother's maiden name is McIntyre. Sadly, I think Emer is also on IGI under the name of Ewen...........I think the name has been mis-transcribed to Emer:
EWEN MACDONALD Birth: 01 JUN 1832 Laggan, Inverness, Scotland
Parents: Father: JOHN MACDONALD Mother: JANET MAC INTYRE
Monica
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Good work Monica :) and the Young was an alias ???
Just noticed that it was Ewen :(
Gadget
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Thank you both for those ideas and hints. They give me another perpsective to think about too - always interesting!!
My cousin (through marriage into another line) who is also tracing her family history, suggested that maybe he was born into a "poor relief home" ??? or that his mum may have died in childbirth and he could have been brought up in a poor relief home.
Were they like the workhouses in England? Are there any sites that have good information and lists of these places and the people in them? Do either of you happen to know if there were any in Inverness around that time? Did they still have them if everyone was being cleared from their land?
Lots of questions that perhaps you may have the answers to without going to any trouble?
with much gratitude for your help already,
Cheers,
Barb
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Hi Barb
I'm sorry but I know very little about the poor relief system in Scotland at the time (I must read up on it). It was different from the English one. Monica may know. Another person who definitely would know is Russell (runner on this site). It would be worth sending him a PM as he's not on too often these days.
One though that I had was that he was called Young Emery, as a nickname, and it changed at some stage to Emer(y) Young.
Good Luck
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
HOW CLEVER ARE YOU!!!!! :D
I would never have thought of that! (though if that's what he did, I doubt that I'll ever find his family or more about his Scottish years :)
Still haven't found any shipping records with him on either. Rather frustrating how people just turn up somewhere, with no prior trail to chase up - how inconsiderate of them! LOL
Is Russell a history expert? How can i send a message to him?
Cheers for now,
Barb
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Hi Barb
As I said befor, it isn't a Highland name and he is likely to have spoken Gaelic. I just thought about your ships lists and Emery being a labourer and thought that he might have responded to a question about his name as 'Young Emer(y). I wonder if there are any Gaelic first names that are like Emery - I'll check :)
I have PMed you about Russell :)
(This is a bit like someone phoning to say 'I've e-mailed you', ain't it ;D)
Gadget
Added - nearest Gaelic name that I can come up with is Iamhair/Iomhar translating as Evander.
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Hi Barb
Have you got a list of Emery's children and the order they were born in following his marriage. Have you got details of his wife's parents' names so we can discount them from the list.
I think Gadget is right, it's down to an issue of names because the ones we have certainly aren't there!
I think if Emery was orphaned, or being looked after in some capacity, his name (what ever it turns out to be) would still have shown on the 1841/51 Censuses. The point of the censuses was to record where everybody was on the night of the census.
Monica
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Hi Barb
Gadget PM'd me. as she said, I haven't been on site for a few days.
By coincidence I was at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow looking up a Poor law record of a relative !?
There's a poignancy about your quest since Emery shares a surname with me.
Gadget is correct in her comment that Scots Poor Law was different from some other places.
It was the responsibility of a parish to care for their own poor, aged and infirm but , unlike England, they preferred to keep people out of an institution by helping their relatives to support them. It was only if the relatives were unable to accommodate them that they were brought in at all. Or if they had no relatives and friends to support them.
Some of the Poor Law records are surprisingly detailed especially if the person was not from that parish but still needed support. The Parish council would contact the person's parish of origin and try to get them to offset or cover the costs.
Even earlier than 1800's a parish might order someone who was capable of working to support themselves to leave the parish. (This could be taken as a forerunner of Assisted Passage since they might give them something to enable them to travel!)
An infant who had been orphaned would probably be handed over to a foster mother to be raised. She would be given financial recompense for her willingness. The cash offered would seem absurdly small by todays reckoning.
Some orphans were simply accepted into the family as one of their own. Others would be sent out into the world as soon as they were able to work to support themselves.There was no law on adoption back then. that is a recent innovation.
Others might be taken into the Poor Law institution as soon as they were able to do some productive work there until they were able to fend for themselves.
The whole Poor Law process was an expensive drain on the finances of a parish because , of course, there was no government support back then.
Back to Emery. The suggestions you have had are really the only way to dig and dig until some other smidgin of a clue comes up. I wondered if you had tried Amory as a fore name.
The surname Young pops up in too many places to be very useful since its derived usually from a T name. In Scotland there was a small pool of names and many places discriminated between one John Smith and another by calling one Young John in much the same way as in Wales we find Dai the Post and Dai the baker.
Sorry for the lengthy history lesson but, as Gadget says, Scots history is long and complicated.
Sorry too that I can't add anything as yet to the constructive comments you have had already.
Russell
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Hi All :)
Just throwing up what might be a red herring but.................
I have located an Emery F Young on the 1851 Census in Cambridgeshire. I think he's the correct age and a labourer. The page is pretty feint but this is what I have:
1851 - HO107 Piece 1735 Folio1755/746 Page19
Linwood House, March, Cambridge
Emery F Young, Lodger, age looks like 20, Labourer, b. March, Cambridgeshire
I shall check if he's around in 1861, if not he might be yours. The born Invernessshire on his death cert might be wrong because it would probably be hearsay :-\
Gadget
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Interestingly, I can find no trace of this fellow in the 1861 or 1871 censuses. However, he doesn't appear to be on the 1841 and I can't find anything on the IGI.
Gadget
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Gadget
Emery F. Young's age on the 1851 in England is down as 28 (I know hard to read!) but he's indexed with a birth year also of 1823. Pity, because that the closest I've seen.
Monica
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No Monica - that's the index. I enlarged the image and looks very like 20 to me :)
Gadget
PS - I enlarged it even more and I now think it is 28 :( :( :(
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Let's just enjoy the moment of seeing Emery and Young together!
Monica
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I ain't going to give up yet, Monica ;)
I'm going to think and search long and hard.
I've been thinking that the age was only what was reported as well. Now, how do we know that he was the age they put on the death cert?
I think a search of ships lists and any input from Barb about his family/info when he got to Oz might help.
Come on, a few canny Scots lasses and a lad can't give up ;D
Gadget :)
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I agree...I bite at the ankle and then can't let go!
I've been going through the 1841 Census in Scotland to see whether any Emery (not many but also looking at variants) is in a household with different surnames, picking up on Russel's point. ............I'll keep going through them and see if anything jumps out.
When Barb posts his children's names, this could help with the searches.
Monica
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Just a thought on that though Monica !
If he was indeed an orphan there may be no naming tradition to follow.
Or it could be the pattern of his foster family.
Not totally stumped yet though ;)
Russell
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Right, getting back to scraping the barrel, clutching at straws ???
I've found a Ewen Young, baptised 10 July 1827, Kilmallie, parents - Charles Young and Vere Cameron.
Ref - 520 Page 2
Gadget
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.... also an Andrew Emery, bpt. 25 June 1834, Cranston (Midlothian :( ). Parents: Andrew Emery and Elizabeth Maclean.
Ref - 680 Page 2.
Gadget
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Gadget
If you scrape that barrel any harder it will leak ;D ;D ;D
Russell
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I don't think there's any barrel left :)
Monica's having a good scratch around as well ;)
He could be anywhere. The problem is that the ships lists are primarily geared to America. There seem to be oceans of them but OZ - :(
Gadget
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Hi guys,
am back again, sorry to have been away so long. You have been absolutely wonderful doing all that digging for me!!!!Thank you all very much. And nice to hear from you too Russell - your reputation preceded you!! :D
The history lesson was fascinating - always interesting to find out how different societies dealt with different issues in any case, even if not looking for ancestors.
I had found the Emery Young in Cambridgeshire before too, and thought that maybe he was mine, until I got Emery's death cert. showing Invernesshire, Scotland as his place of birth. Unfortunately the informant was the undertaker which is no help at all, as i have tried to follow up the name, without success.
There are lots of shipping lists to Australia, and some records are held by our National Archives and State Records NSW, especially for particular periods with the convicts and also assisted immigrants, so if anyone needs me to look up anything for them in those, please let me know and I'll do my best.
According to his death cert, Emery was in the colony for 55 yrs at his death, in 1908 which would make it about 1853 he arrived. Though i hae checked through all the passenger lists that i can find from 1850 - 1856 after his marriage date, (9 Feb 1856 in SA), still no success so far. ???
I have found a few "Mr Young" s who came out to SA but no details of where they came from nor Christian names, but unable to follow up any further just yet.
Also, find predominantly lists for ships that came from England, not Scotland, or would they have left from Scotland and come to SA via England perhaps??
Emery's wife was Mary Ann nee Castle and their children were:(in order)
Marion
Wealthey
Stephen
Electy
Janet Emily
Annie
Francis
Mabel
Bessie
John
Adelaide Sarah
George
Mary Ann's parents were Charles and Sarah, from Kent, England, and they had William, Charles, Edmund, Henry, Eliza, Mary, George, Sarah as names in their extended family.
Does anyone happen to know if Electy is a Scottish name at all? I have not come across it anywhere before, and haven't been able to find out anything about her either. (Is definitely female).
Sorry that I haven't been able to find out much more in the interim, but hopefully it will help a bit.
Thank you so very much for your kindness, the 3 of you. I really appreciate all the trouble you are going to for me.
Cheers for now, :)
Barb
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Hi Barb
You asked about ELECTY as a name in Scotland.?
My relatives + my wife's cover just about all the Scottish counties and this is a name I have never come across anywhere.
Wealthey is another I have not come across.
Scotland generally drew on a very small pool of names and because of the naming tradition they tended to keep the same ones down the generations within the family. If a child died they might re-use the name so 2 or 3 children of the same name in a list of siblings is not uncommon.
Marion, John, George and Bessie (Elizabeth) would be the most likely finds up here.
Despite the Inverness link the list has a very English feel to it.
The problem with establishing a couple of links is the boring searches that come next.
Russell
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I was thinking that they sounded English too, Russell. The nearest I can think of is Heccy/Heccie - short for Hectoria or possibly Leccy (not sure what that's the diminutive of) but Electy I've not come across. Wealthey - sounds like the name of a goldmine or some such ???
I am still wondering about the Cambridge guy, particularly as it was the undertaker who was the informant. He could easily have confused place of birth with someone else - family/neighbours/etc.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
Like you I hae my doubts about the guy in Cambridgeshire.
The problem is that the surname Young is too universally used. It crops up across Scotland and right across England so it is of no help trying to pin down a place.
Why could he not have had an easy name like McTavish or Hetherington which would have some local significance.
I think that the various Mr Young's on the passenger lists may hold the clue here.
Russell
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Yes, Russell, I think you are right. Poor Barb is going to have to go through passenger lists and look for any other clues before we can do any more. The names just don't seem at all Scots to me.
My ancestors gave their children grand Scots sounding first or second names after they left - like Bruce, Douglas, Gordon, Wallace, etc.
Gadget - a Braveheart ;)
PS. I just got a Hielan Mary for a middle name!
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Hielan mary ?
With a name like that you'll just have to come down and stand on a promontary in Dunoon gazing out over the sea.
Its funny though. the further they went from Scotland the more romantic the names poor children were given.
There must be a lot of pathos in the Scottish make-up.
Russell
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Thanks for the giggles guys,
I think my greatgrandaunt Wealthey was named in the hope that she would be perhaps?? hee hee. I also have a great aunt with the name, and they wanted my grandparents to name my mum after her, so i am VERY grateful they didn't!!!
As i said before, i thought with a name like Emery he'd be easy to trace!!! How wrong can you be?? I agree, McTavish or Campbell sound like good Scottish names - perhaps I'll just give him one instead!!! ;D
I will keep hunting as much as I can, pity I cant find other cousins from his other children who just may have more information!!! (Haven't had any luck finding them yet either, and a far as i know they are out here too!!) Needles in Haystacks :(
Any idea where i can look for the Scottish pasenger lists? Did the Ships come out via England, or direct from Scotland?
Hope you are all keeping well, and thanks again,
cheers for now,
Barb :)
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Hi Barb
Glad you're not too upset by our findings, or lack of them.
Scottish ships would have mainly sailed from the Clyde but I would think that there was a fair chance that he might have left through any of the English ports so that again is wide open. I think you need to narrow down his emigration as tightly as possible and then try finding all the ships that sailed during that period.
Sorry
Gadget
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A big thank you Gadget, Russell and Monica for all your help: even discounting potential leads, and teaching me more history and naming, districts, shipping etc is helpful to me, and much appreciated. You are all gems!! :-*
I have already searched every passenger list i could find from the period, so will see if i can get hold of his hospital records (he died in hospital), and hope that just perhaps, that may provide one or two more clues to chase up. If that doesn't do the trick, I'm going to forget about him for a while as need to stop bashing my head against this particular brick wall. It would be nice to find an ancestor who is easier to chase up for a change. ;D
Once again, thank you all so very much, and don't forget, if i can help you with Aussie stuff, please let me know.
cheers for now,
Barb
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Hello,
I came across your entry for Emery YOUNG and was taken by the names Charles YOUNG and Vere CAMERON.
Have you managed to confirm if this is your family?
I believe your Emery may be born to this couple and perhaps a brother to Colin who I am researching.
When Colin got married his mother's name was cited as Emily and if you say Evere/Vere quickly you can sound like Emery. Add a thick Scottish accent and it is possible.
What gave me the clue was Colin named his eldest daughter Evere Hannah Young.
Would love to exchange notes.
Liz Dolan
Manly Qld Aus
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Found a reference to a E. Young leaving Melbourne for Adelaide in June 1854 on board the Yarmouth
aged 19yrs. Considering Emery was 21 when he married in 1856 then this could be him.
Film month June page 2.
Another entry for E Young on board the Havilah II in May 1854 but he is aged 24yrs.
Film month May page 2.
My Colin left Melbourne for Sydney in June 1852.
Could not find Emery on board the Blonde in 1848 which is what I believe Colin arrived.
Liz Dolan
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Hi Liz,
Thank you very much for that. perhaps it was him on the Yarmouth. Will have to follow that up.
I have found out a lot more information on this elusive ancestor since my last post (though still not when and how he arrived, so greatly appreciate this lead).
Though his death cert said Inverness Scotland, he was actually born in Lanark, Ontario, Canada, to Isaac Youngs and Charlotte ........ This couple had 2 children.
Then Isaac remarried Betsy (Elizabeth) and went to New York, and they had lots of other children. Emery reputedly headed to Australia and jumped ship, probably to get away from such a big family ;D and to increase his prospects.
His father Isaac was also born in New York, but do not know where his family came from - the theory is THEY were the ones who perhaps came from Inverness. That would have been in the late 1700's.
Haven't been able to get any further back yet, to find out who Isaac's parents were or where they were from. (presumably in Scotland)
I am sorry that it doesn't appear (as yet) that your Colin and my Emery are connected. So hard trying to track such common names. ??? Perhaps yours went to Canada too. There were many Scots who emigrated to Canada and US back then, so it could be quite feasible. Where were yours from?
Thanks again,
Cheers for now,
Barb
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Hi Barb,
Can you tell me where you found him in Canada or what led you there. I did see his death in SA under Youngs. Seems like you have found out quite a bit about his parents and family - just wondering if someone had made contact with you.
Liz
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Hi Liz,
long story but in essence i went to enter some more info on the Australasian BMD exchange after I got Emery and his wife's certificates, and Lo and behold, someone else was looking for him too! :D We have been communicating ever since, and trying to put the jigsaw together. She had a lot of information from another cousin, who had also sent copies of letters between Australia and America following Emery's death, which confirmed the Canada US link. So we are all in touch now, and she has regular contact with Youngs cousins in America.
Until then, both of us had found a lot of references to Emery Youngs in US, (The name carries through in the children too) genealogy sources, but discounted them as not being ours because we were still looking in Scotland. :(
My cousin on the other side of the family and i are working together on that one (my dad's side), and she is going to try to get some information for me about the place in Canada where Emery was born, in 1832. Would it be of any help if you sent me some of the details about who you are looking for and i ask if she can find anything out for you too???
I think a lot of Scots went to Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia, but am not 100% sure about that.
cheers for now,
Barb
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Hi Barb,
I actually have Colin and his family, Charles YOUNG and Vere CAMERON on the censuses up to 1881.
Charles remarried in 1858 and dies some time between 1871 and 1881 in Kilmallie, Argyll.
I am more interested in his descendants more than his ancestors. He married Hannah HOSKIN in 1862 in Tenterfield. Hannah is an older sister to my ancestor Richard Hoskin Jnr.
This couple is the last one that I have to find info on in this line which I have back into the 1700's.
Actually Hannah's mother was Hannah HAWKEY and her father and siblings all emigrated to Cobourg ON
in the 1840's. Also Nicholas HOSKIN, Richard's brother. Nicholas died in Cobourg and his wife remarried and moved into Michigan.
Thanks for the offer.
Liz
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Good luck with finding out the rest of what you are searching for Liz. Sorry I am unable to help.
cheers for now,
Barb
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Emery Young is my 3rd great grandfather. His daughter Wealthey was apparently named after a boss of the factory (Mr. Wealthey.) where the Meakins family worked before they came out to Australia. He either was very nice or helped them financially in some way. They promised to name a daughter after him. This is the story told to my mums cousin (Wealthey no 4!) having looked at the tree this story is not possible as Wealthy was named by Emery and Mary Ann (not any of the Meakins) So my best guess is that is was the Castles where the family who started this tradition with Mary Ann. Why? Who knows..... Wealthey Young was the second daughter born. The second Wealthey to my knowledge was Auntie Tot. (Mariah Meakins) are there more Wealtheys out there?
Any way, I found this old thread while searching for Emery. He jumped ship? And was born in Scotland? Who is the Emery Young born in Canada?
My grandmother told us that we had "Americans in the family" and that someone came out from America. I assumed this could only be Emery.
He does seem a character, stealing Von Alpens horse and dray. I would LOVE any more information on him, Barb are you still around?
- Marie
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Marie and Barb, I am another one searching for Emery. I have discovered him after having done my DNA. I am hoping to break down a brick wall of an unknown father.