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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Garethboxing on Wednesday 01 November 06 19:16 GMT (UK)
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This may be of interest to anybody who thinks (dreams :) ) they may be descended from the original Princes of Wales or any other great names of the Cymric past, such as Owain Glyndwr.
Peter Bartrum, now 99, began a project in 1929 to trace Welsh bloodlines from 300 to 1500 AD. There are 26 volumes of the stuff - and Aberystwyth University now plan to put them online.
Be patient, however. It'll take three years to transfer everything on to computer. Still, it'll be worth waiting for - just in case :)
Gareth
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Actually Gareth, I am descended from OG's sister via my Puleston line. I was dead chuffed when I found the link because it links in to the Tudors and so many of the 'noble tribes'. Also Simon de Montfort somewhere. See http://www.ancestral-tales.co.uk/html/lee_pulestonline.html and http://www.ancestral-tales.co.uk/html/puleston_tree.html for the line back to 12th century.
I've got a copy of Griffith's Pedigree's which gave me the tree info but Bartrum on line would be great : )
Thanks for the info.
Gadget
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Congratulations Gadget!
(Though I don't really know why I say that - it's not as though it's an achievement on your part :) I suppose it's more like winning the genealogical lottery.)
A recent series on ITV Wales tried, not totally successfully, to trace a family tree in reverse, starting with a celeb and trying to trace their descendants. It had even more of a feeling of a "fix" than WDYTYA has occasionally, where you realise the researchers knew who they were going to end up with before they started.
But the first traced the line of Owain Glyndwr down to Monmouth MP David Davies, ironically a rather anti-Nationalist Tory, and his father had some fantastic pedigree books, which made good TV, even if it did make it obvious that the programme-makers had known about the link in advance. Perhaps you and DD are related too.
Gareth
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By the time it got to me, Gareth, my family were mainly coal miners via the ag lab route so I'm just and ordinary Welsh lass (with Scots and English ) connections.
I would imagine that most of us do have connections, it's just proving the link. Luckily I got there. I don't think it makes me any different.
I think I got a bit upset and guilty thinking of how one of my lines might have treated the other lines in the dim distant past :( :( :(
And being linked to the Monmouth MP has really not made my day either. Thanks a bunch for telling me :(
However, as a more general point, as I said, I do have Griffith's Pedigrees and can provide info for anyone if they have a named ancestor.
Gadget
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Ok, Gadget, I'm intrigued. What are Griffith's Pedigrees? ... and would they have any reference to my 2xgt grandad Charles Glendower Powell, who gave many of his (13? 15? 16?) children (including a daughter ??? ) the middle name Llewellyn? He's been defying my efforts to find his family for more than a decade ...
I think he's one of those sitting in a pub somewhere chortling about leading me a merry chase!
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The Griffith Pedigrees is a large book compiled by J. E Griffith of Bangor Univerisity in 1914. The title is Pedigrees of Anglesey and Caernarvonshire Families with their collateral branches in Denbighshire, Merionethshire and other parts. It has been Reprinted twice by Bridge Books, Wrexham.
ISBN 1-872424-63-5
It was £60 when I bought it a few years ago.
I think there are lots of links if you G*gle.
Gadget
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Ohhhhhh.
Thanks for that .... hmmm, *does mental calculations* ... 60-odd pounds, these days, amounts to ... ermmm ... about 150 aussie dollars :o
Might have to take a rain check on that ... unless i win lotto lol
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Like Gadget, also a few years ago, I bought a copy of Griffith's Pedigrees for a similar price; if you can use the information in it for your own research or even the pleasure of browsing it is well worth the price of a bagful of recyclable light reading. No regrets.
Is a second-hand dealer or public library an option for you?
Hope you get your hands on one.
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Another point is that you really do need to find one of those Gateway ancestors. Mine was circa 1670 and then with help from Jayson, who put me on to someone who also shared the same ancestors, i was away.
Gadget :)
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Hello Gadget,
I was most interested to see your link to your Puleston descent, but couldn't get your link of Nov 2006 to work; is it still available?
Regards,
Pinot
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Hi pinot
It's because the Rootscaht webspace server is down. I've now moved my website to a new server.
Here's the ancient tree:
http://www.ancestral-tales.co.uk/html/puleston_tree.html
and the previous bit:
http://www.ancestral-tales.co.uk/html/lee_pulestonline.html
I'll go udate the previous message :)
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Thanks for your quick reply and the two working and enjoyable links.
Pinot
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:D
I hope you enjoy reading the whole site!
Note that it was Katheine Puleston b. 1670 who was the Gateway ancestor and then Robert Puleston b. c. 1358 married Lowri fch Gruffydd Fychan of Glyndyfwrdwy who was Owain Glyndwr's sister.
Gadget
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*makes mental note to approach second-hand dealers, and look on e-bay*
Thanks for the tips, everyone ;D
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Hello everybody,
I've just come across this post-very interesting as I believe I am related to Owen Glyndwr on 2 lines of the family at least.My link on one side comes through his mother's family.She was I believe Ellen the daughter of Llewelyn Ap Owen who was the son of the Lord Rhys[Arglwydd Rys].
Ellen's sister was Gwenllian,the wife of Rys Ap Rhydderch who was another Grandchild of Lord Rhys.Gwenllian and Rys Ap Rhydderch had a Grandson called Kydwgan Fawr whose wife was a 2nd. cousin to Owain Glyndwr.Hence the 2 lines.
My family descends from Kydwgan Fawr through the Estates of Carrog, Llanddeiniol,Mabws,Llanrhystud,Gogoyan,Llanddewi Brefi and Ty'n y Park,Nantcwnlle to name but a few.There are connections to the Gwynns of Monachty,Lloyds of Llwyndafydd and others.
They all converge on the Griffiths family of Nantcwnlle,some of which still reside in the locality,some of which[like me] who have travelled far and wide.It would be interesting to see if there is a link to the Griffiths families of North Wales but I've yet to come across one.
I have,nt read or seen the Griffith Pedegrees,are they available on-line?If not I would be grateful if anybody could check the detail in my letter to confirm what I know.I have considerably more info. available should anybody require this.
Thankyou,Diolch ynFawr,
brawd houdini
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I'll check mine up over the weekend and get back to you - we might be very distantly relate ;D ;D ;D
Gadget
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Hello Brawd Houdini,
Your Owen Glyndwr connections make very interesting reading; although I can't comment on much of your post, which J. E Griffith does not cover, you might like to know that he intersperses your descent with a few more generations (no d.o.b.'s, dates), so that Ellen (Glyndwr's mother) would be the daughter of Thomas ap Llywelyn ap Owen ap Meredydd ap Owen ap Gruffydd (ob.1202), son of the Lord Rhys.
Perhaps Gadget will be able to shed a little more light soon.
Best of luck searching,
Pinot
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Hello Pinot,
Thankyou for your observations-I stand corrected.As you rightly state there should be several more generations between Lord Rhys [1132-1197]and Owen Glyndwr[1354-?].Perhaps you can enlighten me on these missing generations as this is information that I do not possess.What I do know is that the Lord Rhys had 9 sons and 8 daughters and that 3 of the sons are called Maredudd and 2 of the daughters are called Gwenllian!!Also that Owen Glyndwr was the son of Gruffydd Fychan II and Elen Ferch Tomas Ap Llywelyn.
I also stand corrected on another point raised by myself in my original post when I state that Rys Ap Rhydderch was a Grandson of the Lord Rhys.Again there should be more generations added between them.Perhaps somebody can enlighten me of those missing generations as well?
My history is more complete from Rys Ap Rhydderch down,but as always nothing is set in stone and there is room for much more information to be added,brickwalls to be shattered,etc.For instance I do not know who the wife of Kydwgan Fawr the grandson of Rys Ap Rhydderch was and she is part of my line of descent,through their son Kydwgan Fychan[or Kydwgan of Carrog].
I hope that this stimulates more discussion on this topic,and that perhaps some more light will be shed on some more of these old Welsh lines.
Good luck everyone with your searches,
Regards,brawd houdini
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Right. I don't do this very often but this is the Owen Glyndwr link for you:
Gruffydd ap Rhys, Lord of South Wales (d.c.1136) m Gwenllian, daughter of Gryffydd ap Cynan
Their son:
Lord Rhys ap Gruffydd (d.c. 1197) m Gwenllian, daughter of Madog ap Meredith
Their son:
Gruffydd (d.c. 1202) m Mawd, daughter of William Breos of Brecknock
Their son:
Owen m Angharad, daughter of Meredydd ap Robert, Lord of Cedewain
Their son:
Meredith m ?
His son:
Owen m. ?
His son:
Thomas m. Eleanor, daughter of Philip of Iscoed (this marriage united the North and South Wales dynasties)
His daughter:
Ellen/Eleanor m Gruffydd Vychan of Rhydallt, Lord of Glyndyfrdwy
Their offspring:
Owen Glyndwr (d. 1415) and my ancestor Lowri (m. Robert Puleston of Emral)
::) ::) ::) -these are all my ancestors too :o
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Gadget ;D
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Hello everybody,esp. Gadget,
Hope this fills in some of the blanks or gives you food for thought.?I have,nt shown them before as I can,t verify them but here goes-
Gruffydd is as you say
Lord Rhys-as you say
Gruffydd m. Maud also known as Matilda de Breos[or Braose]
Owen I,m not sure of-all I have is .....? verch Gwion
Maredudd Ap Owain[1215?] m. Elinor verch Maelgwyn
Owain Ap Mareduddd[1246?d.15th, August,1275] m.Angharad verch Owain[also known as Agaret-daughter of Owen Ap Meredith,Lord of Kedewen]
Thomas Ap Llywelin[1309?] m.Eleanor verch Philip--as you say
Ellen m.Gryffudd Fychan II--as you say
And on to Owen Glyndwr.
My line comes in with Thomas Ap Llywelin who was the Lord of the Manor of Llandyssul,Lord of Gwynnionith and Iscoed,Lord of Iscoed Kerdyn and Trefgarn.He was buried in Llandyssul Church in 1309.
He had several children, amongst them obviously Ellen but also Oweyne,Thomas and Gwenllian.
Again my line comes in with Gwenllian who was married to Rys Ap Rhydderch of Castell Howell and Pantstreimon.
Rys Ap Rhydderch was the son of Kydivor Ap Dinwal and Katherine[unknown].
Kydivor was also apparently a descendant of the Lord Rhys and I'm working on this at the moment.Gwenllian was apparently by Thomas Ap Llywelin's 1st. Marriage-conceived when he was certainly under age-she was born in 1279 or 1280.Ellen was his daughter through his 2nd. marriage to Eleanor who it is said was a daughter of Henri Comte de Barri.
It's getting interesting-over to you
Regards,David
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David :) :)
The Griffith Pedigrees are presented as Dynastic trees - I checked 3 or 4 for the info I put up. It takes ages to read through because the print is very small.
I'll get back to you in a while.I need to buy a magnifying glass. I left mine in Scotland ::)
Gadget :)
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most of if not all of je griffiths book is on the world connect tree....type in willperf on the database search and away you go...bear in mind there are a lot of errors in the je pedigrees!
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I found 5 or 6 copies of the book " Pedigrees of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire Families " by J E Griffith on a site selling second hand books...........but you'll need between £500 to £700 to buy one !
David...................who has a Welsh gt grandmother, so maybe I'm descended from OG too 8)
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Think you'll have to go back a bit further than a great grandmother to get a link in - I linked in with a 6x great grandmother and Lowri, OG's sister was my 13 x great grandmother ;D
Gadget
Added - so my £60 copy was a good investment ;D
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I linked in with a 3x grandmother....born 1790....Elizabeth Williams CAE DDAFYDD Nantmor Beddgelert
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Is Robert ap Griffith Goch the Robert Puleston, Esq., of Emral, who married Lowri?
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0NEKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1663&lpg=PA1663&dq=burkes+peerage+lowri+glendower&source=bl&ots=a8P-lPdtqk&sig=ACfU3U14WHk9v6dNR8Kn5q3zMkO5FrM6qg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVyML9h9XkAhWVi1wKHSXgAd44ChDoATAAegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=burkes%20peerage%20lowri%20glendower&f=false
Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry, Volume 2
YALE OF PLAS-YN-YALE Page 166
GRIFFITH AP EINION, of Cors-y-Gedol, Llysvassi, and
Gwyddelwern, m. Lowry, widow of Robert ap Griffith
Goch, (see LLOYD OF PLYMOG,) and dau. and co-heir of
Tudor, Lord of Gywddelwern, in Merioneth, (brother of
Owen Glendower ,) derived from Griffith Maelor, Lord of
Bromfield, eldest son of Madoc , last Prince of Powys.
THE YALE PEDIGREE
Lowrie was descended from three different lines of Welsh Princes, all running back to Rhodri Mawr and Cuneda.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tudor-159
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gruffydd-97
https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/7/7a/Llywelyn-29.jpg
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Einion-14
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iD4LAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=snippet&q=Puleston&f=false
Annals and Antiquities of the Counties and County Families of ..., Volume 1
By Thomas Nicholas
PULESTON Page 454
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A tree given here:
http://www.puleston-jones.com/index.htm
Gadget
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Just found the relevant link on the site I gave :
http://www.puleston-jones.com/page22.htm
I'm not sure what cousinship I share with the site owner - I think our lines deviate circa 1700
Gadget
PS - Use Griffiths Pedigrees mentioned above as they are much more easy to follow.
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Not contesting or arguing with any points already made,just an observation.
At a crossroads in Shrewsbury ,the end of Pride Hill, there used to stand a memorial cross to David the last native Prince of Wales.
He was hanged,drawn and quartered there ,October 3 rd 1283 on the orders of Edward 1 ( Longshanks).
There was an explanatory plaque on the nearby wall.
Guess what? It was moved, away down the hill nearer the station .
Traffic congestion being the excuse.
I used to look at it and imagine a young boy but he was in his forties I now believe.
I still feel sorry it was thought necessary to move it.
Viktoria.
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There were many Princes of Wales, Viktoria, not as now ;D
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I am not familiar with it all it was just that he was named as the “last native” prince of Wales,well according to Shrewsbury Town Council!.
So important his memorial in the place where he was executed was moved
for traffic!
How ignominious. Shame on them!
Viktoria.
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Just got this from the On-line Bartrum. It's the tree showing Robert Puleston marrying Lowri
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3KH2-VL8
For more details from the on-line records see:
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Medieval_Families_Welsh_Project
Gadget
:)
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Gadget, we must be cousins ;D
OG is an 18th GGFather via his daughter Janet who married John Croft
Edward
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Gadget, we must be cousins ;D
OG is an 18th GGFather via his daughter Janet who married John Croft
Edward
;D
That must be why we both like cricket and hot sauce, Edward!
Think it's something like 15th cousins 4 removed :o
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My gateway was when I traced two descendant lines from Owen Humphrey, (grandfather of the renowned harpist and composer Dafydd y Garreg Wen) to my two grandmothers. Owen is recorded in Y Gestiana as being alive in 1693.
The paternal line is via Owen’s son Humphrey Owen who married Gwen daughter of Robert Dafydd, Isalllt. Robert was the son of Dafydd Vaughan, Glasfryn who can be found in both Griffith’s Pedigrees and Professor T. Ceiri Griffith’s Achau. His lineage is well documented and can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd and beyond.
The maternal line is via Owen Humphrey’s daughter Ann Owen who married John Griffith of Tu hwnt I’r Bwlch. Fortunately, their great-grandson, Ellis Owen, Cefnmeusydd was, among many other things, a genealogist who wrote a short summary of the family tree. Since this went back to the 1500’s it was easy to tie it in with P. C, Bartrum’s work. The trail this time did not lead to O. G. but via the Lords of Nannau and beyond to the Welsh tribes. I decided to stop when I reached Roman Emperor Magnus Maximus (Macsen Wledig from the Mabinogian)(335-388). When using Bartrum one has to believe in the accuracy of the Pedigrees he studied and also suspend any disbelief in the Welsh myths and legends.
Glyn
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I think Griffith is more reliable than Bartrum but it is hard on the eyes!
I gave the ref early on in the thread but include it here again:
The Griffith Pedigrees is a large book compiled by J. E Griffith of Bangor Univerisity in 1914. The title is Pedigrees of Anglesey and Caernarvonshire Families with their collateral branches in Denbighshire, Merionethshire and other parts. It has been Reprinted twice by Bridge Books, Wrexham.
ISBN 1-872424-63-5
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I bought my copy of J E Griffith Pedigrees of Anglesey and Caernarvonshire Families as a pdf. file on disc which makes it a lot easier to electronically search and also highlight the parts of interest. The file size is just over 60 kb.
Glyn
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I think I bought a hard copy in about 2006-7 for £60 ;D
I've not used it for ages.
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Gadget, we must be cousins ;D
OG is an 18th GGFather via his daughter Janet who married John Croft
Edward
Hello Cousin.
I too am descended via Janet and John.
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Gadget, we must be cousins ;D
OG is an 18th GGFather via his daughter Janet who married John Croft
Edward
Hello Cousin.
I too am descended via Janet and John.
and 'Spot the Dog' ?? :) ;) ;D
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Gadget, we must be cousins ;D
OG is an 18th GGFather via his daughter Janet who married John Croft
Edward
Hello Cousin.
I too am descended via Janet and John.
and 'Spot the Dog' ?? :) ;) ;D
That is amazing!!!
How did you know our dog is called Spot ?
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Gadget, we must be cousins ;D
OG is an 18th GGFather via his daughter Janet who married John Croft
Edward
Hello Cousin.
I too am descended via Janet and John.
and 'Spot the Dog' ?? :) ;) ;D
That is amazing!!!
How did you know our dog is called Spot ?
I guessed ;D
I always thought that spot the dog was a game for children. :D
One of many hilarious audio versions of J&J here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a6x8ud0v3o
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My family name is Griffiths, usually spelt in the correctly anglicised version of Gruffyd. I only go back to John born Llandogo, Mon. 1702, died 1749 Mitchel Troy, Mon. but buried Llandogo. His father also died Mitchel Troy 1749 and buried Llandogo. There was a Philip Griffiths born 1660 died 1747 Mitchel Troy, but buried Llantilio Crosseny. That courtesy of a Rootschatter. Evidently, he was a relative, but precise relationship unknown.
Going any further back highly unlikely.
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My gateway was when I traced two descendant lines from Owen Humphrey, (grandfather of the renowned harpist and composer Dafydd y Garreg Wen) to my two grandmothers. Owen is recorded in Y Gestiana as being alive in 1693.
The paternal line is via Owen’s son Humphrey Owen who married Gwen daughter of Robert Dafydd, Isalllt. Robert was the son of Dafydd Vaughan, Glasfryn who can be found in both Griffith’s Pedigrees and Professor T. Ceiri Griffith’s Achau. His lineage is well documented and can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd and beyond.
The maternal line is via Owen Humphrey’s daughter Ann Owen who married John Griffith of Tu hwnt I’r Bwlch. Fortunately, their great-grandson, Ellis Owen, Cefnmeusydd was, among many other things, a genealogist who wrote a short summary of the family tree. Since this went back to the 1500’s it was easy to tie it in with P. C, Bartrum’s work. The trail this time did not lead to O. G. but via the Lords of Nannau and beyond to the Welsh tribes. I decided to stop when I reached Roman Emperor Magnus Maximus (Macsen Wledig from the Mabinogian)(335-388). When using Bartrum one has to believe in the accuracy of the Pedigrees he studied and also suspend any disbelief in the Welsh myths and legends.
Glyn
Hi Glyn,
I'm descended from Ellis Owen FSA through Gaynor, Ellen, and then Isaac Roberts. I'm struggling to explore the Ellis family beyond Owen Ellis and Thomas Rowland - can you give any guidance please ? Thanks.
Gareth Roberts