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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: myk on Thursday 02 November 06 09:47 GMT (UK)
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I know this sounds desperate, but I dont have a clue where to look next.
I have just found out from a marriage certificate from 1849 that my ancestor and his Father from Germany were musicians. This is stated on the cert. This and their names are all I have to go on in my search for their place of birth.
Is there any chance that there will be records of exams taken, or listings of bands and the members in them?
Also what does anyone think the likely instuments they played could be?
They were Jewish if that makes a difference.
Thanks
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Hi,
It would be easier to help, if you gave us a name.
Some names belong to regions.
Also, 1849 Germany might not be today's Germany.
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The name was Winsburg (or Winsburgh, Winsberg).
There are quite a lot of Winsbergs living in the Duisburg area now.
No Winsburghs or Winsburgs in Germany atall, according to the phone book.
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Hi myk
I too have German ancestors and I agree it's tough finding the birthplace when you have just 'Germany' on the census. I'm assuming this family were in England on marriage. A few ideas ...
1. Have you checked EVERY census to see if (hopefully) they give something more specific for birthplace? If not, it may be worth posting a Lookup Request in the appropriate geographic board ?
2. Have you checked naturalisation records (if indeed they were naturalised) ? They can be very detailed and interesting.
3. Are there any siblings on the census that may provide further info?
4. The Immigrant Resources board has a lot of pointers and has some special links which relate to Jewish immigrants I believe.
5. The musical connection is difficult as they may have been 'street' musicians (there were loads which immigrated from Italy, Germany etc) or more 'professional' musicians. Hard to tell without knowing more about their census entries ...
It can be a tough slog but don't give up. After several years trying to find one of my families' German birthplaces I've just got a small break based on an old family photo.
Good luck
Biker
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1. Have you checked EVERY census to see if (hopefully) they give something more specific for birthplace? If not, it may be worth posting a Lookup Request in the appropriate geographic board ?
Yes I have all the census records.
2. Have you checked naturalisation records (if indeed they were naturalised) ? They can be very detailed and interesting.
Yes, they were not naturalized, at least I couldnt find anything
3. Are there any siblings on the census that may provide further info?
He had no brothers or sisters that I know of (in the UK)
4. The Immigrant Resources board has a lot of pointers and has some special links which relate to Jewish immigrants I believe.
I will look there again, thanks
5. The musical connection is difficult as they may have been 'street' musicians (there were loads which immigrated from Italy, Germany etc) or more 'professional' musicians. Hard to tell without knowing more about their census entries ...
The entries just say 'musician' (this is on a marriage cert not a census) None of the census records mention musician atall, he just has various jobs like skin dresser, tailor, clothes salesman etc
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I know this sounds desperate, but I dont have a clue where to look next.
I have just found out from a marriage certificate from 1849 that my ancestor and his Father from Germany were musicians. This is stated on the cert. This and their names are all I have to go on in my search for their place of birth.
Is there any chance that there will be records of exams taken, or listings of bands and the members in them?
Also what does anyone think the likely instuments they played could be?
They were Jewish if that makes a difference.
Thanks
Hello myk,
Your ancestors may have been Klezmer musicians. The instruments they played would have included violin, viola, cello, bass, tsimbl and flute. Clarinets may also have been used. Click here (http://www.budowitz.com/pages/shorthistory.html) to read a short history of Klezmer Music written by Merlin Shepherd.
If I may post a bulletin giving details of your query some of my MySpace musician friends may come up with a few suggestions as some of them have connections with Klezmer bands.
Christopher
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havent been on here for ages and just read this recent reply.
yes by all means ask your friends Christopher.
thanks
Mike
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Your German ancestors could easily have been musicians without any formal training.
My great-grandfather (aged 15) and his cousin (around the same age) left their village in Germany in 1885 with other young men to spend the summer playing in a band in New York. The man in charge was to send money home to their families and look after them. They played all summer and just before it was time for all of them to go back to Germany the man vanished leaving them without any funds (and no money had been sent home to Germany). Luckily my great-grandfather had an older brother in New York when he was left in a foreign country without being able to speak English.
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Helllo myk,
According to the database on JewishGen, the name Winsberg / Wincberg appeared in Lithuania and Poland. There wasalos the name Windsberg in Germany (town nor specified).
Music was a important part of Jewish culture. Your ancestors would possibly have played at weddings and other festive occassions. It is just about possible, altough doubtful, given the date (well into the period of Jewish Enlightenment and emancipation) that the ywere classical musicians.
They would not have been klezmer musicians as that was a form of music that developed in shtetl of the Russian Pale.
Could you tell us where and when this marriage took place? And, of course, the full names of the lucky couple and any witnesses too.
Justin
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Hi thanks for the responses.
Marriage details.
9/7/1849 liverpool Parish Church Southport, Lancaster
groom - Philip Winsburgh, age full, batchelor, musician.
father - Philip Winsburgh, musician.
bride - Mary Ann Smith, age full, spinster
Father - George Smith, Paper maker.
Witnesses - (looks like) Margaret Moran and James ???
Mike
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Mike,
What makes you think they were Jewish? I see no evidence in that marriage record, in fact quite the opposite. Are you aware of a conversion in the past?
A Jewish baby was given the name of recently deceased relative as a sign of veneration. The only way that a boy could have the same name as his father was if the father died during the mother's pregnancy.
I apologise, none of this helps you track down their birthplace.
Justin
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Found them on this search:
Source: http://british-jewry.org.uk
http://www.british-jewry.org.uk/New%20Member%20Area/Yorkshire%201881/Bradford/acaster.htm
Can trace them back to Whitechapel in London in 1851:
6 Christopher Close Whitechapel, Middlesex Winsburg(h) Phillip Lodger Married 23 Skin Dresser Germany
6 Christopher Close Whitechapel, Middlesex Winsburg (Smith) Mary Ann Wife Married 23 - Germany
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Hello Mike,
The first page of that Yorkshire Jewry database bears the vital caveat:
Conrad Plowman ... extracted these names based on their birth place from the 1881 census index.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/042g/
Practising Jews would have married according to the rites of the Jewish religion, a fact that would have been recorded on the marriage cert. Your cert clearly proves that the WINSBURGS were not Jewish.
The friendly people of the British-Jewry forum helped me trace my Jewish ancestry back to Germany. I would email them and ask for a clarification regarding the database.
Have you tried the Anglo-German Family History Society?
Justin
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Ok a bit daft of me to jump to that conclusion ;)
The street they lived in in 1851 was most likely Christopher Court not Close.
I cannot find any record of a Close of that name in Whitechapel around that time but there was a Court.
This Court is mentioned in the Booths Poverty Online Archive as "inhabited by Jews"
This record was made in 1898 though and is only a very very tenuous link with my ancestors.
But I dont have much else to go on as far as finding where Philip Winsburg came from in Germany.
In a later Census -1871- he is named as born in FRANCE E??? and living with his second wife Sarah in Sherburn, Yorkshire.
Very confusing!
I have tried the Anglo-German Family History Society some time ago and dont remember getting anywhere.
thanks for replying
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Hello Mike,
I was wondering about the 1871 census and the reference to France.
As far as I know the French lost the Franco-Prussian War of that year, so there was no transfer of land to the France.
I'm sure you've been down this path, but I would imagine that the family originated in a place called Winsburg or something similar.
There are references on the web to 12th century battle near Winsburg castle and to Bretzfeld and Winsburg in Wuerttemberg.
Have you checked out Weinsburg or Wiensburg?
Justin
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Some of my relatives lived in the Saar region on the French border and I remember seeing birthplace as 'France' on one of the census returns. My great-grandmother was a baby at the time of the Franco-Prussian war and her father was a baker. Some days he went one direction from home to deliver bread to the German troops and other days they were in the opposite direction.
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Very interesting you should say that.
I came across an old rootweb message (I think) mentioning Winsburg, Nünschweiler and Hochweiler near Saarbrücken. I couldn't find that Winsburg, but maybe the placename changed.
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Have extremely detailed map of Saarbrucken area purchased in Germany with an index- will check for Winsburg and see if I can find it.
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No Winsburg listed (map covers Frankfort-Luxembourg).
There's a Hockweiler about 10 miles south east of Trier.
Can't see Nunsweiler but there's a Nuhweiler (east of Wadern) and Nonnweiler (north-east of Wadern).
Just a thought- if Winsburg was near German-French border and is now in France the name was probably changed to a French sounding one.
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Do you think they meant Windsberg (east of Zweibruecken and Nuenschweiler) as it is now called? Just south of the A8.
I think we need to consult an old map.
I also came across the reference to a marriage of Margaretha zur Winsburg in Trier in 1580.
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I have also stumbled across that one:
WINSBURG Margaretha St. Gangolf (Church) 1580 LUTZERATH Christoph
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I see that Trier (where Margaretha WINSBURG married Christoph LUTZERATH at St. Gangolf (Church) in 1580) is pretty close to Windsberg.
Makes you think.... ;)
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Myk - Almost all Winsbergs around the world can trace their ancestry to 2 Jewish blacksmiths from Germany who moved to what is now Lithuania in the 1700s. Variations of the name include Windsberg, Winzberg and possibly Vinzberg. It is possible that the name refers to the town they came from, but I would not put much trust in using that fact. During much of this time the German Empire stretched to what is currently Lithuania, so it is quite possible that your ancestors may have come from this same family. In the late 1800s many (if not most) members of the Winsburg family emigrated to Chicago, Illinois and New Orleans, Louisiania; Montreal, Quebec, Canada; South Africa and Israel. I suspect that any that remained in the area perished during the Holocaust (one definitely did in Lodz, Poland). May I ask how you know that this particular ancestor was Jewish? - RossW in PHL
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RossW, thats very interesting about the Winsberg history. I would be interested to know how you seem to know so much about the name? Are you Ross Winsberg??? :)
Can you tell me more about these 2 Blacksmiths, and where the information was found?
My ancestor Philip was born around 1829, so his Father (also Philip) I am guessing, would have been born around 20-25 years before that, so around 1809-1804.
Where in Germany did the people you refer to move from in Germany?
If you read the rest of this thread you will see that my belief that they were Jewish could be wrong, but maybe there is something in it after all?
Please tell me more!
Mike
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My ancestor Philip Winsberg moved from Germany (I assume) to England around 1849 because he got married in Liverpool in that year.
Mike