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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: julianb on Monday 06 November 06 23:01 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if anyone can help me, please
A friend has antecedents who were ship-owners in South Shields and Sunderland
Henry Lee 1850s South Shields
Enoch Dunkerley Thompson 1827; 1850s South Shields
James Lee 1827 Sunderland
James Lee had married Ann Havelock (believed to be related to Henry Havelock the soldier)
Enoch Thompson's daughter married Henry Lee (James' son)
I am trying to find resources which can shed more light on the shipping business in the 1800s. My friend is trying to find out where all the family money went - the family mythology is that these guys above thought that steam would be a passing fad, and stuck with sail. ::)
PS He doesn't expect to find the money - just wants to understand the story behind it. ;D
Would be grateful for any leads to follow up.
Thanks very much
JULIAN
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Some facts you may not have:
Enoch Dunkerley Thompson, of East Street, South Shields, was a Master as well as a shipowner. James Lee was a shipowner of Waterloo Place, Bishopwearmouth. In 1850 Henry Lee lived at 1, Mount Terrace, South Shields.
There was an enormous death rate in the 1800s of men and loss of ships. In 1884 the President of the Board of Trade commented that in mining the heaviest loss of life in one year was never more than 1 in 315 of those employed, whereas in shipping it was 1 in 60.
Between 1827 and 1829, 107 ships from Sunderland were lost, and between 1833 and 1835, 124 went down. By 1875, 46% of the 2,900 coastal casualties were on the east coast coal route.
The great losses led to the campaign by Samuel Plimsoll, not just for a "Plimsoll Line" but against overloading, undermanning, bad storage, deck loading, bad design, defective construction and lack of repair of ships.
See http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TUplimsoll.htm
Stan
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Stann
Thanks for this info and the background context. No Health & Safety Executive back in those days - the statistics you quote are pretty alarming.
JULIAN
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I'm guessing he may be descended from this Thompson family (as am I).
http://members.cox.net/ghgraham/robertthompson1774.html
George Graham's site is extremely detailed and well worth a look.
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Jenny
Thanks very much for that link. My friend's Thompsons were descended from an Evan Thompson of South Shields, but there could well be a connection. We'll follow it up!
And welcome to Rootschat :). There's some great knowledge and resourcefulness on here. Enjoy your stay.
JULIAN
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Just to point out that Thompson was a very common name in County Durham. In the 1881 census there were 9,213 (the third highest county). Based on Poor Law Unions Sunderland had the highest number in the country at 1,831, and South Shields had 1,022.
Stan
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Hello Julianb,
Did Enoch's daughter who became Mrs. Henry Lee have a brother named Joseph Logan? Was there a ship named the "Annie Lee" after her? Did she have another brother, a medical student, who died of tuberculosis?
Westoe
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Maybe this is where it went ........ ::) have you seen this already Julian ??
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/html_units/1830s/t18300916-75.html
No wonder this guy cahanged his name ... sounds like all the Thompsons from South Shields shipping business went broke !! wonder if this guy is related ??
http://www.cnyscouts.org/historical/seton_bio.html
Annie :)
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Here's the same guy .... posting .... just in case !!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Thompson_Seton
Ernest Thompson Seton ( Ernest Evan Thompson )
Ernest Thompson Seton (1860-1946) was best known as the author of Wild Animals I Have Known and as co-founder of the Boy Scouts of America.
Seton was born on August 14, 1860, in South Shields, England, the eighth of the ten sons of Alice Snowdon Thompson and Joseph Logan Thompson. At the age of 21 he took the surname Seton in the belief that his father was the true heir to the lands and titles of Lord Seton, Earl of Winton. After an appeal from his mother in 1887, he resumed the Thompson surname and began using the nom de plume Ernest Seton-Thompson on his published works; in 1901 he changed his name legally to Ernest Thompson Seton. These changes have caused confusion in identifying his earlier work.
Joseph Thompson owned a small fleet of merchant sailing ships, but when forced out of business by competition from steam-powered ships in 1866, he emigrated to Canada with his family to become a farmer. On the farm near Lindsay, Ontario, Seton developed the interest in animal life that became the basis of his career as both artist and naturalist. The Thompsons, however, were unsuccessful as farmers, and after four years they moved to Toronto; here Seton discovered the wildlife of Toronto Island and the Don River valley. His adventures in the valley may be found in Two Little Savages (1903).
In 1876 he was apprenticed to the Toronto portrait painter John Colin Forbes and began night classes at the Ontario School of Art and Design. Although he won a seven year scholarship to London's Royal Academy of Arts in January 1881, he abandoned his studies after only seven months and returned to Canada, this time to settle on his brother Arthur's Manitoba homestead. His wildlife research on the prairie resulted in the publication of his first scientific article in 1883 and provided material for many of his later books, among them The Trail of the Sandhill Stag (1899).
Seton completed his art training between 1890 and 1896 at the Académie Julian in Paris. It was in France that he met the writer Grace Gallatin, the daughter of a San Francisco financier. They were married in New York in June 1896 and settled near Greenwich, Connecticut. Their only child was Anya Seton, the novelist. The marriage ended in divorce in 1935.
In 1898 Seton published his first book of animal stories, Wild Animals I Have Known, telling the stories of Lobo, King of Currumpaw; Silverspot, the crow; and Raggylug, the cottontail rabbit, from the animals' points of view. Lavishly illustrated with Seton's unique drawings and paintings, the book was an instant success, and Seton went on tour telling his stories and showing slides of his illustrations. For the next ten years he turned out at least one book of stories annually, including The Biography of a Grizzly; Lives of the Hunted; Monarch, the Big Bear of Tallac; Woodmyth and Fable; and Animal Heroes.
The popularity of his stories was temporarily halted in 1903 when the naturalist/philosopher John Burroughs accused him in an article in the Atlantic Monthly of "faking" his animal tales. Seton responded to this attack by investing the next five years in the research and writing of the two-volume Life Histories of Northern Animals which earned him the Camp Fire Gold Medal for 1909 and the renewed popularity of his books. Later he enlarged the Life Histories and published them in four volumes between 1925 and 1928 as Lives of Game Animals, this time earning the John Burroughs Memorial Society's Bronze Medal.
In 1902 Seton organized the Woodcraft Indians for boys in order to encourage outdoor activities, and in 1904 he presented a copy of his Birchbark Roll of the Woodcraft Indians to Sir Robert Baden-Powell, the hero of the seige of Mafeking, South Africa, asking him to help popularize Woodcraft summer camps in England. Instead, Baden-Powell introduced his own organization - the Boy Scouts - into England in 1908, incorporating most of the games and activities Seton had included in the Birchbark Roll. When it appeared that Baden-Powell intended to move the Boy Scout organization into the United States, Seton joined forces with other youth leaders to form the Boy Scouts of America in 1910, and he became the first Chief Scout. However, five years later he was forced out of the Boy Scouts because he was a pacifist.
In 1930 Seton settled on a 2,300-acre tract of land near Santa Fe, New Mexico. Here he married his second wife, Julia Moss Buttree, and with her he founded the Seton College of Indian Wisdom (later the Seton Institute of Indian Lore). Here for the next ten years they conducted summer courses in arts and crafts, outdoor activities, and leadership skills. He published his autobiography in 1940 and his last animal story book, Santana, the Hero Dog of France, in 1945. He continued to write and lecture until two months before his death on October 23, 1946.
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Did Enoch's daughter who became Mrs. Henry Lee have a brother named Joseph Logan? Was there a ship named the "Annie Lee" after her? Did she have another brother, a medical student, who died of tuberculosis?
Hallo Westoe :)
Yes, Ann Thompson had a brother Joseph (born about 1821, sailmaker in 1841 census). I don't know if he was called Joseph Logan Thompson, but as his mother's maiden name was Logan, this is quite probable! I don't know the answers to your other questions, but it suggests you do!
Maybe this is where it went ........ ::) have you seen this already Julian ??
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/html_units/1830s/t18300916-75.html
No wonder this guy cahanged his name ... sounds like all the Thompsons from South Shields shipping business went broke !! wonder if this guy is related ??
http://www.cnyscouts.org/historical/seton_bio.html
Annie 8)
Excellent stuff - yes, I had found the old bailey proceedings, but without Westoe's intervention, I wouldn't have checked on Jospeh Logan thompson.
Thanks very much. This all starts confirming the family stories my friend had heard. I'll pass it all on.
JULIAN
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Did Enoch's daughter who became Mrs. Henry Lee have a brother named Joseph Logan? Was there a ship named the "Annie Lee" after her? Did she have another brother, a medical student, who died of tuberculosis?
Hallo Westoe :)
Yes, Ann Thompson had a brother Joseph (born about 1821, sailmaker in 1841 census). I don't know if he was called Joseph Logan Thompson, but as his mother's maiden name was Logan, this is quite probable! I don't know the answers to your other questions, but it suggests you do!
Thanks very much. This all starts confirming the family stories my friend had heard. I'll pass it all on.
JULIAN
Hello Julian,
Ask your friend if there are Henzells, Tates and Snowdons intermarried with his Thompsons. Is Annie Lee his direct antecedent?
Here's a bit about one of her father's ships, the "E.D.T. "(stands for Enoch Donkerley Thompson - that family was great on naming the ships after members of the family).
http://www.reach.net/~sc001198/ShipsE.htm
And some bits copied from reply to a similar question over on The Mariners List
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/MarinersList.html
Hello Jay. I looked for these vessels in the Lloyd's Registers from 1820,
but only found them in the 1850s.
ALICE THOMPSON - 1857
Master: Captain M. Ellison
Rigging: Bark; sheathed in felt and yellow metal in 1857; fastened with
iron bolts
Tonnage: 309 tons
Construction: 1852, in Sunderland; repairs to damages in 1855
Owners: J. Thompson
Port of registry: South Shields
Port of survey: Sunderland
Voyage: sailed from East Indies
ANNIE LEE - 1857
Master: H. Rawsay
Rigging: Bark; sheathed in yellow metal in 1856; fastened with copper bolts
Tonnage: 383 tons
Construction: 1856 in Sunderland
Owners: Thompson
Port of registry: South Shields
Port of survey: Sunderland
Voyage: sailed for India
SPRING - 1851/1858
Master: Captain Mackenzie (1851, 1853); Captain J. Gowland (1854, 1855)
Captain W. Gourley (1856); Captain R. Dunn (1857, 1858)
Rigging: Snow; fastened with iron bolts
Tonnage: 261 tons using old measurements and 275 tons using new measurements
Construction: 1838 in Sunderland; some repairs in 1849, 1851 and 1853
Owners: Morrisson
Port of registry: Newcastle (1851, 1853, 1854 & 1855); Shields (1856, 1857
& 1858)
Port of survey: Newcastle (1853); Shields (all other years)
Voyage: sailed for London (1851); Québec (1853); America (1854, 1855);
France (1856); Lisbon (1857, 1858)
Hope this helps. Cheers.
Gilbert Provost
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Westoe
Great stuff! I was just about to google for Annie Lee! I'll read this first :)
JULIAN
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Boy Julian ! .... you're on a roll now !
I'll keep watching ........ isn't this fun ?? ;D
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Boy Julian ! .... you're on a roll now !
I'll keep watching ........ isn't this fun ?? ;D
You bet - it's as exciting as if it was your own!
Ask your friend if there are Henzells, Tates and Snowdons intermarried with his Thompsons. Is Annie Lee his direct antecedent?
Don't know about the Henzells Tates and Snowdons (except now that Joseph Logan Thompson married Alice Snowdon) but Annie Lee nee Thompson is a direct antecedent of my mate (who is a Lee).
JULIAN
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Another question Julian,
If Anne (Thompson) Lee is your friend's direct antecedent, is it through
1) Harry?
2) Charles Havelock?
3) Anne Mary?
4) Carrie?
5) Harriet? or
6) Clara? or
am I missing some?
Cheers,
Westoe
P.S. Would trade photos of Anne Thompson and Henry Lee in exchange for hard information to fill in gaps.
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In the archives of Sunderland Antiquarian Society there is a single-sheet document dated 2nd January 1792 headed "Unanimous Association". This lists 73 South Shields vessele giving the Owner's Name, the name of the vessel and Master and the burthern in keels.
Entry No 51 is for the vessel 'John and Robert' owned by John Thompson, having a burthern of 18 keels and Henry Elliott as master.
Wearsider
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Another question Julian,
If Anne (Thompson) Lee is your friend's direct antecedent, is it through
1) Harry?
2) Charles Havelock?
3) Anne Mary?
4) Carrie?
5) Harriet? or
6) Clara? or
am I missing some?
Cheers,
Westoe
P.S. Would trade photos of Anne Thompson and Henry Lee in exchange for hard information to fill in gaps.
Descended from Charles Havelock Lee & Elizabeth Torrance Hardle Foster
I will put your offer to him!
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My friend Karen M who's a whiz on the Canada board contributed this ..... ;D ;D ;D
This looks like him, daughter born in Sweden....
Name: Ernest Thompson Seton
Home in 1930: Greenwich, Fairfield, Connecticut
Age: 69
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Birthplace: England
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse's name: Grace G
Ernest Thompson Seton 69
Grace G Seton 50
Hannah Engstrom 40
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Marriage Registration for:
William Snowden Thompson
Age: 27 years
Residence when Married: Toronto
Place of Birth: England
Bachelor
Occupation: Carpenter
Name of Parents: Joseph L and Alice Thompson
Mary Stuart Threlkeld
Age: 24 years
Residence when Married: Toronto
Spinster
Place of Birth: England
Parents: Joseph & Fanny Threlkeld
Names & Addresses of Witnessess: Wm Enoch Thompson & William Threlkeld, Toronto, Ontario
Date of Marriage: September 17, 1874, Toronto, Ontario
Religion for Both: Presbyterian
By License
Reg. NO. 011927
Karen
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Marriage Registration for:
Joseph L. Thompson
Age: 26
Residence when Married: Toronto
Place of Birth: South Shields England
Bachelor
Occupation: Builder
Parents: Joseph L & Alice L Thompson
Mary Ann Holgate
Age: 28
Residence when Married: Toronto
Place of Birth: Hamilton, Ontario
Spinster
Parents: John & Jane Holgate
Names & Addresses of Witnessess: Charles Thompson & F.H. Holgate, Toronto
Date & Place of Marriage: May 20, 1875, Toronto, Ontario
Religoin of Bridegroom: Presb.
Religion of Bride: Church of England
By License
Reg. NO. 011400
Karen
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Death Registration for:
William Snowden Thompson
Place of death: 529 Roxton Road, Toronto
Racial: English
Age: 80 years
Date of Birth: August 24, 1847
Place of birth: England
Occupation: Real Estate Agent
At place of death: 9 years
In Ontario: 60 years
In Canada: 60 years
Father: Joseph L. Thompson, England
Mother: Alice Snowden, England
Informant: WJ Thompson, son
Address of INformant: 486 Montrose Ave., Toronto, Ontario
Place of burial: Toronto
Date of Burial: May 7, 1928
Name of Undertaker: McDougall Brown, Toronto
Date of Death: May 5, 1928
Primary Cause of Death: Ch: Intestitiate Nephritis
Duration: 2 years
Autopsy: No
Reg. No. 003710
Karen
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There was an enormous death rate in the 1800s of men and loss of ships. In 1884 the President of the Board of Trade commented that in mining the heaviest loss of life in one year was never more than 1 in 315 of those employed, whereas in shipping it was 1 in 60.
Between 1827 and 1829, 107 ships from Sunderland were lost, and between 1833 and 1835, 124 went down. By 1875, 46% of the 2,900 coastal casualties were on the east coast coal route.
Stan
Just to point out that Thompson was a very common name in County Durham. In the 1881 census there were 9,213 (the third highest county). Based on Poor Law Unions Sunderland had the highest number in the country at 1,831, and South Shields had 1,022
Stan, my apologies. In my earlier posts, I had meant to thank you for the pertinence of these quotes from you, and to address Julian's original question "What happened to the family money?"
These Thompsons, according to family lore were originally Camerons, and, after the '45, some of them slipped across the border and adopted the name Thompson precisely because it was one of the most common surnames in the northeast.
As for money, shipowners have a lot in common with farmers and actors. A farmer is land-rich but cash-poor and his credit is only as good as his last crop. An actor is only as bankable as his last role. A shipowner apparently has position and credit, but that is all contingent on "when my ship comes in". Family lore talks of a collier which broke its back in the Tyne while?/immediately after? loading and of several other ships in succession "taken aback on the Goodwin Sands".
Also many thanks to Karen M. for all the details she's been posting about Annie Lee's collateral relatives. It all makes a little less for me to tell, tho' (grin) I'm still hoping that Julian's friend will fill in some of my gaps.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Marriage Registration for:
George L. Thompson
AGe: 26
Residence when married: Chicago, USA
Place of Birth: England
Bachelor
Occupation: Printer
Father: Joseph L. Thompson
Mother: Alice Snowden
Georgina G.(?) Gray
AGe: 23
Residence when Married: Galt, Ontario
Place of Birth: Galt
Spinster
Father: Henry Gray
Mother: Alice Fisher
Names & Address of Witnessess: Joseph L Thompson & John E. Thompson, Toronto, Ontario
Date and Place of Marriage: October 13, 1881, Galt, County of Waterloo, Ontario
Religion of Both: Presb.
By License
Reg. No. 011297
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Death Registration for:
Alice Snowden Thompson
Date of Death: March 25, 1897
AGe: 75 years
Rank or Profession: Wife
Place of Birth: England
Cause of Death: Arterio Sclerios Paresis, Several Months
Reg. No. 0010790
Karen
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Nice job Karen M !
Julian will be pleased with all that !! :) :)
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Karen
Thanks for this excellent Thompsons in Canada info. I'm "awaiting instructions" from my pal, if he's keen to dig further on the Canada side, so if he does I'll post a new thread on the Canada Board. Unless, of course, Westoe wants you to continue .......
But, I would be interested, now, in any info on the death of Joseph Logan Thompson.
Also many thanks to Karen M. for all the details she's been posting about Annie Lee's collateral relatives. It all makes a little less for me to tell, tho' (grin) I'm still hoping that Julian's friend will fill in some of my gaps.
As I said above, Westoe, I'm awaiting further instructions from my client ;)
I had little problem finding info about Enoch Donkerley or Dunkerley Thompson - a distinctive name - but I did struggle tying down Henry Lee and his father James. Henry disappears into the ether after 1861 (where he was found, visiting, in London, with Anne and children in Westoe with her father ED Thompson) until what I think is his death in 1875 in South Shields?
Searching on James Lee or Henry Lee is not half as productive as for E D Thompson - for whom I found stuff in the London Gazette.
JULIAN
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Karen
Thanks ... I'm "awaiting instructions" ... Unless, of course, Westoe wants you to continue .......
JULIAN
Actually Julian and Karen, Westoe already has all of this Canadian stuff (and much more - grin). E.g. - William Snowdon Thompson's wife Mary Threkeld was known in the family as "Mary-Willie" to distinguish her from "Mary-Enoch", his brother's wife.
I'd like to give you details about Joseph Logan Thompson, but isn't it a two-way street??????
Also a quick skim through pictures again turns up more - EDT, Mary Ann Logan, Harry Lee, Charles Havelock Lee, Annie Mary Lee and W. H. Dickinson and babies Alice and Ethel etc. etc. etc.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi Julian,
Forgot to mention you can view the 1901 and 1911 Canadian Census and the 1906 Prairie Census (Manitoba, Sask. & Alberta) for free at www.automatedgenealogy.com
Karen
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Hello: I'm Cherie Lynn and totally lost making my first post. Googled my 3rd greatgrand Henry Lee and turned up these posts. I also saw the 1875 death record for a henry and thought that might be him. In Dec 1864 a death record for the son Henry Thompson Lee? I couldn't find Annie Mary. My 2nd greats Mary Caroline Lee married John Kidd and Immigrated to America with son Harry Hutton Kidd (more). Harriet Alice Lee married John Kidd's brother James Hutton Kidd and immigrated to New Zealand with their sons James Hutton Kidd of the Gala Apple fame, no descendants; Wilfred Kidd possible descendants. Clara Jane Lee married James Kendall?, children. And Charles Havelock Lee I followed through records to Wales Charles dying maybe 1901 Cardiff and he and Florence had Archibald Henry, Ann Margaret and Dorothy. Henry's parents James Lee and Ann Havelock Lee and have had contact with Havelock and with New Zealand archives. More... Hope "yall are still looking. Cherie Lynn
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Hello Cherielynn and welcome to the 'never-ending-puzzle'.
It will be several weeks before I can do a reasonable reply to your post. We moved house yesterday and all my books and papers are buried in cartons, but,... sadly, ...off the top of my head .... the surnames HUTTON and KIDD don't ring any bells. Can you supply any names from further back?? or any snippetts of family legends??
THOMPSON is a common surname and in that time period, HAVELOCK was a very common given name (in honour of the famous general). It's quite possible that we are talking about different families, butI will reply again when I can.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi Westoe: Here is the marriage cert of Caroline Lee to John Kidd Commercial Traveller. and the witnesses are Harriet Alice, Caroline's sister and James Kidd, John's brother. It names her father as Henry Lee Ship Owner and John's is John Kidd Wholesale Clothier. It will be here IF I can attach it. Also have other docs. Hope your move goes well. I look forward to hearing...Cherie Lynn (says the file is too large to send let me see what I can do it is over 1 mg but is a jpeg) more... I will try again to send
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her is the cert. I cropped it close and now is less than 500. Thanks for your interest. Cherielynn
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Cherielynn
LOL - this (certificate and post) all happened while I was trying to work out if who I had recorded as Caroline Lee really was the Mary Caroline Lee quoted in your post of 1 September. I'll buy that it is - not just on the father - Henry Lee shipbuilder - but as much on the sister Harriet Lee as witness.
I only got involved with this very intetresting family helping out a friend. He is descended from the Archibald Henry Lee that you found in Cardiff in 1901.
Clara Jane Lee married James Kendall?, children.
Can't help on this one.
Henry's parents James Lee and Ann Havelock Lee and have had contact with Havelock and with New Zealand archives.
James Lee and Ann Havelock married 8 January 1803 Bishopwearmouth. Ann Havelock baptised 9 December 1772 Sunderland - daughter of William and Ann Havelock. James was shown in the 1827 Sunderland Directory as a Shipowner, living at Waterloo Place (Bishopwearmouth).
My friend is "positive" that these Havelocks were part of the same family as the famous soldier Havelock. (But of course could be a family myth)
Anne Thompson (Henry Lee's wife) comes from an interesting family. Her father Enoch Donkerley Thompson was also a shipowner - in South Shields.
JULIAN
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A quick afterthought. Where did Caroline Lee and John Kidd get married? It is hard to read on the certificate.
JULIAN
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I must dash but saw your question -- they married St George's Church, Everton, West Derby, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
Caroline left in 1874 with Harry and second son Ernest and then also had a trip back to the UK and returned again to the US in 1880
Information removed
In 1880 census of the US familysearch.org John and Caroline, son Harry and their 3rd son Reginald Sherman Kidd are in Indiana,
Information removed
Son Ernest goes to Denver marries Anna Fisher and has two children. He is absent many years but then in his WWI he is stated to be blind and so maybe was in schools some years.
Reginald Sherman Kidd was artist and Illustrator with Saturday Evening Post and instructor with St. Botolph's in Boston and Illustrated books for RF Feeno NY. Spent much of his time back and forth to the Continent. Married Flora Nee Unknown -- Children?
Harry Hutton Kidd wound up in Wisconsin, married Quebecois Louise Salvas and had 8 children, 7 living to adult. more
Harriet Alice Lee Kidd and James went to New Zealand be sure to see
http://irisarchives.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_archive.html
His picture is online New Zealand will send more.
very sorry so messy but didn't want to leave you with nothing more for today. more... tomorrow Cheirelynn
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James Lee and Ann Havelock married 8 January 1803 Bishopwearmouth. Ann Havelock baptised 9 December 1772 Sunderland - daughter of William and Ann Havelock. James was shown in the 1827 Sunderland Directory as a Shipowner, living at Waterloo Place (Bishopwearmouth).
My friend is "positive" that these Havelocks were part of the same family as the famous soldier Havelock. (But of course could be a family myth)
JULIAN
Hi JULIAN
Your friend is correct :)
George Havelock of Guisbrough, North Riding of Yorkshire married a Barry, a relation of the Barry family of Whitby Shipowners. They had three sons and three daughters. His second son Willliam Havelock settled in Sunderland c. 1758, he died 10th Oct. 1777.
William Havelock lived in a large house in Silver Street, Sunderland, and was one of the towns major ship-owners. He married Anne Longboatham, the daughter of Jacob Longboatham, of Guisborough
They had three sons and four daughters, the youngest was Anne Havelock who married James Lee. Their eldest son William Havelock (1757-1837), of Ford Hall, married Jane Carter, 16th Aug. 1787, and they had five sons, the second of which was the famous Sir Henry Havelock K.C.B. (1795-1857).
So Anne Havelock Lee was the aunt of Sir Henry.
Stan
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Your friend is correct :)
Stan
Thanks - that's very helpful indeed. Greatly appreciated
JULIAN
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Hi: all I see everyone has the same data that I do and that is great to have my work verified after all these years of struggling with records.. Thanks to all for the new data and here are my very messy notes. I will write up Harry Hutton Kidd next and maybe someone can help us find him -- he left Wisconsin sometime 1920-1930 and has never been heard from again. I still wonder if he might have gone to New Zealand or back to England.
Here are messy notes that I see have already been corrected by Stan...
Mary Ann Logan Thompson, I did NOT keep the notes, the info was all IGI and did not have batch numbers with the records and were only personal submissions (quality of research from Logan 1-3). But the parents are named as Joseph Logan and Ann Seton. Her parents are named as Charles Seton b 11 Jun 1711, Bellingham, Northumberland, England and d 1781 Dunterley, near Bellingham, England wife Ann Dodds no data.
Ann Havelock Lee info from family researcher M Havelock (quality of research from Havelock 8-10). Father William Havelock b22 May 1728 Guisborough, North Riding of Yorrshire, England, d10 Oct 1777 Sunderland, County Durham, England married 06 Jan 1754 Guisborough Anne Longbotham b1728, d24 Mar 1804 Sunderland, County Durham, England.
William son of George Havelock and Mary Barry. Anne daughter of Jacob Longboathom.
Brother to Ann, William Havelock b02 Dec 1756 Sunderland d24 Jun 1836 Heavitree married 16 Aug 1787 Bishopswearmouth Jane Carter b14 Jun 1769 Yarm, Yorkshire, England d26 Feb 1810 Ingress Park, Kent, England parents of Henry.
M Havelock has descendants of many lines of the Havelocks and sorted most of them out with contact with descendants worldwide.
Enoch Thompson and father needs full research to verify. Speculation on Darkerly Donkerly. Family of Donkersley has a family forum and contacted S. Donkersley we found no connection his line was in…? can’t remember old family files on other computer I will look later maybe was Guisborough that his line was from and maybe that is why I contacted will look…
James Lee the 1841 census is bothersome leaves one wondering is this James Lee…
Information removed
…The father of James Lee husband of Ann Havelock Lee?
NEHGS has Early American Newspaper collection with some shipping news from the UK and the continent. Many ships of the specified names coming and going at different times but no certainties.
James Lee and Ann Havelock Lee
Son William Havelock Lee married possibly Hannah
Son James Lee too many of them to be certain of anything.
Son Charles Lee also too many to be anything but speculation
Son Henry Lee 1871 census???
Wondering??
Henry Lee and Ann Thompson Lee
Son Henry Thompson Lee d Dec 1864 Durham, have cert somewhere on other computer
Daughter Anne Mary Lee – no info
Daughter Clara Jane Lee married Bet. Oct - Dec 1873 Lancashire John Kendall had Anne C Kendall c1875, Charles Kendall c1876, Florence Lee Kendall c1883, Elsie Victoria Kendall c1888. Public records end.
Daughter Harriet Alice Lee married Sep 1871 ) Lancashire 8b 363 Liverpool James Hutton Kidd
The Original One-acre Sections in the
Town of Wellington, and their Purchasers.
993. Riddiford Street James Kidd
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WarEarl-t1-body-d16-d4.html#name-208401-1
from bio of son James Hutton Kidd Jr
immigrated to New Zealand...
Harriet Alice Lee and her husband, James Hutton Kidd, a tailor. The family emigrated to New Zealand when Hutton Jr was a child, initially settling in Christchurch.
Son James Hutton Kidd Jr b12 Sep 1877 Hexham, Northumberland, England d1945 Greytown, New Zealand married Ethel Laura Lola Gilbert in New Zealand she d1970 Eastbourne, New Zealand (No children)
James Jr bio with Photographs
Kidd, James Hutton 1877 - 1945
Horticulturist, community leader
James Hutton Kidd was born on 12 September 1877 in Hexham, Northumberland, England, the son of Harriet Alice Lee and her husband, James Hutton Kidd, a tailor. The family emigrated to New Zealand when he was a child, initially settling in Christchurch. Hutton, as he was known, trained for agricultural work before deciding on an orcharding career. With his brother Wilfred, he started growing apples and other fruit on a small block in Wanganui's town belt. In 1906 he moved his fruit-growing operations to Greytown, reputedly because of poor health. He purchased a five-acre block, but soon expanded this to a 20-acre orchard. Kidd married Ethel Laura (Lola) Gilbert on 31 August 1916 in Roseneath, Wellington; they were to have no children.
Hutton Kidd's interest in a scientific approach to orcharding led him to experiment with new techniques. More…
http://www.teara.govt.nz/Places/Wairarapa/Wairarapa/8/ENZ-Resources/Biography/1/en
Son Wilfred Kidd b Bet. 1870 – 1880 England left working with brother James Jr archives had no data – There IS a family whose data ends with Alexander Hutton Kidd in New Zealand have had contact, contact expected again in Fall 2008-09-03
More…
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I do hope I am placing posts and info correctly, please tell me if I am not. Thanks to all and here is bit more on US data of the Lee Kidds
I have no detail on the Barry family only that Mary was POSSIBLY Only the daughter of George Barry and Dorothy Young
Harry Hutton Kidd son of Caroline Lee Kidd and John Kidd
John and Caroline disappear from records after the 1880 census in Indiana, have read most of the 1890 directories (1890 census substitutes) and nothing comes up. There is POSSIBLY only a Mary Kidd living near Harry Hutton in 1900 in Green Bay but nothing to verify. All death records in Wisconsin have been search by cousin M Leahy. Hope still to find the Naturalization of Harry Hutton Kidd or John Kidd.
Harry Hutton Kidd married 13 Feb 1896 Green Bay, Wisconsin Louise Salvas b Oct 1872 Green Bay d 12 Sep 1962 Green Bay. Louise is the daughter of Pierre* Peter (dit-Laviolette) Salvas of Saint Michel, D'Yamaska, Quebec, Canada and Exupere* Marie Lizotte also of St Michel. Children: Harry Joseph Hutton Kidd, Eloise Kidd, Wilfred Ernest Kidd, Margaret Kidd, Anthony Arthur Kidd, Patrick Hutton Kidd, another Reginald Sherman Kidd, and a child died as infant. 1900, 1910, 1920 census Green Bay, WWI Draft Green Bay.
Son of Caroline and John - Ernest had two known children both deceased, John Kidd and Ernest Kidd Jr. WWI Draft Denver states is Blind, 1930 census Denver with wife and children.
Thanks again to all, let me know if any questions. regards, Cherielynn
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Brother to Ann, William Havelock b02 Dec 1756 Sunderland d24 Jun 1836 Heavitree married 16 Aug 1787 Bishopswearmouth Jane Carter b14 Jun 1769 Yarm, Yorkshire, England d26 Feb 1810 Ingress Park, Kent, England parents of Henry.
Jane Carter was the daughter of John Carter of Yarm and his wife Elizabeth Ettrick, daughter of William Ettrick Esq., of High Barnes, and his wife Isabella Langley. William Havelock died in Heavitree in Exeter, Devon, 24th June 1836.
Stan
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Ship owners Henry Lee, Enoch Donkerley Thompson, Joseph Logan Thompson, Evan Thompson, Thompson, Lee and Co, with Snowden, Tate, Dickinson and others, Including an A. Thompson and Ann Thompson…
A few other ships owned by these people…
From Christie’s shipping register, maritime compendium and commercial advertiser in 1858
Google books
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04me/
In Shields NO page numbers, but searchable
Off.-No Ships Rig TR Built Class
Registered Owners
17, 055 Ann Lee bk 383 1856 in Sunderland 9A
J. L. Thompson, Henry Lee, South Shields
24,430 Cambyses bg 254 1848 in Tyne 7A
John Snowden, H. Lee, South Shields
25,442 LaBelle, bg 330 1845 in USA AE
Joseph L & Enoch D. Thompson, Hen. Lee, Jno. Snowden, South Shields
27,091 Lady Sarah Bayly bk 307 1839 Brandy Cove N.B. 4AE
E. D. and J. L. Thompson, Henry Lee, P. Thompson, S. Shields, J. Dickinson, Jarrow
2,025 New Zealand bk 674 1842 St. John’s N.B. 4-
Joseph l., Enoch D., and Evan Thompson, Henry Lee, George A., and Hannah Tate. John Snowden, J. P. Rennoldson, Matthew Aisbit, S. Shields; Edward Robertson, Edinbro
25,350 Ellergill, sh ?360 1813 Hull …
John Snowden, Joseph Logan Thompson, Henry Lee
2,303 Alice Thompson bk 308 1851 Sunderland 8A
Joseph L Thompson, South Shields
2,219 E.D.T. bk 396 1853 Sunderland 8A
Joseph L. Thompson, Henry Lees, South Shields
26, 711 East London bk 363 1839 Sunderland 8
Joseph L. Thompson, S. Shields
North of England Maritime Directory, Shipping Register and Commercial Advertiser By Thomas Marwood Jun. 1848-1849
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04mf/
Pages 17, Ship and Insurance Brokers – Lee Thompson and Snowden
Off.-No Ships Rig TR Built Class
Registered Owners
Page 28
Deptford snow 262 1840 Sunderland
Thompson, Lee and Co. South Shields
Exertion sch 142 1844 Sunderland
T. & J. K. Lee Sunderland
William brig 211 1830 Sunderland
Lee, Todd & Co – L. Lambton, Sunderland
Amazon brig 250 1825 Leith
J. L. Thompson and Co South Shields
Ann sloop 20 1818 North Shields
Chr. Thompson. South Shields
Deptford Snow 262 1840 Sunderland
Thompson, Lee and Co, South Shields
Dr. Winterbottom Sch 145 1844 South Shields
Haliday and Thompson, South Shields
Jane Sch 60 1816 Gainsboro
J. W. Thompson Gateshead
Jane Barq 388 1840 South Shields
E. D. Thompson and Co South Shields
Jane Thompson Brig 293 1840 Sunderland
C. Tate and Co., South Shields
Messenger Brig 232 1830 Jersey
Name A. Thompson, South Shields
Prince of Brazil snow 238 1797 Hull
Name A. Thompson, South Shields
Ralph Thompson Barq 385 1847 Bill Quay
Name A. Thompson, South Shields
Rapid Snow 255 1830 Montreal
J. L. Thompson & Co, South Shields
Peggy Unrig 33 1840 Sunderland
Name A. Thompson, Bishopswear.
Placid Brig 234 1840 Sunderland
J. Thompson, Bishopswear.
Gulnare Sch 138 1844 Hartlepool
Catherine Thompson and Ann Thompson Bishopsw., John P. Denton and Co. Hartlepool
Lee and Co 45 Villers Street Sunderland Merchant
Lee, Thomas R. & Son 45 Villers Street Sunderland, Ship and Insurance Brokers,
Cherielynn
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Hello again CherieLynn,
Everything still in storage, but am feeling guilty about not having given you anything yet. As replies subsequent to my initial one demonstrate, my original "off-the-top-o'-me-haid"
estimate was wrong. We are talking about the same family.
Some of the ships in your list are not ours tho' e.g. Amazon and Rapid. There was a famous, large and long-established firm called J. L. Thompson & Co. which is entirely unrelated.
Here are a couple you didn't mention:
Jackson, a brig of 223 tons, built 1827 at Workington, owned jointly in 1848 by E. D. THOMPSON, J. L. THOMPSON and H. LEE.
Toronto (Official Number 2091), a barque of 350 tons, built 1834 in Montreal owned by John, Mary A. and Ann SNOWDON and by John BURFIELD (their son-in-law), and by Joseph L. THOMPSON (another son-in-law), and by George A. TATE.
Another Google book you might like to look at is:
Cases Selected from Those Heard and Determined in the Vice-admiralty Court for Lower Canada [1836-1856; 1859-1874]: Relating Chiefly to the Jurisdiction and Practice of the Court, Or Involving Questions of Maritime Law of Frequent Occurrence in the Trade and Navigation of the River and Gulf of ...
By Québec (Province). Vice-Admiralty Court
Published by , 1875
John SNOWDON and Henry Havelock LEE were plaintiffs in a case and won.
More coming ... eventually.
Regards,
Westoe
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Hello again CherieLynn,
Thank you for the PM. However, in the interests of others looking for this far-flung family, I will keep my posts public. (Grin - I know of at least one other distant cousin of yours who is using Rootschat but who so far has not yet posted to this thread.)
To go back to Post #1 in this thread: julianb was enquiring, on behalf of his mate Lee, "What ever happened to the family money?"
Well, there are two simple answers.
1) It's at the bottom of the sea, along with the bones of a lot of poor sailormen ... and ...
2) It went into the pockets of lawyers.
julianb posted correctly. These Thompsons had neither steam nor iron - they were strictly sail and wood (which knocks a few more candidates off the list of ships you posted. You can also knock off the ones not from Shields and listed under a single initial . They were an arrogant and prideful lot. They may have been (temporarily) fugitives deliberately adopting one of the most common surnames in the NE, but once they'd made a little money again, they flaunted their names.
Actually, they followed a textbook pattern. They were living in a maritime environment making a living from the subtrades of the merchant marine. When they had a little money to invest, they bought small shares in some decrepit old bangers. Through luck and the grace of God (remember that this was before loading laws, Plimsoll lines and Official Numbers), they had some successful voyages and made a little money.
They moved up - to larger shares in not-quite-so-ancient-and-somewhat-larger bangers and (again by luck and the G of G) made a little more money. They moved up again - first to wholly owned ships and then to made-to-order ships. Shipping was dangerous - there were losses, but then there were several ships to average the losses out. They lived well - the marble bath and the commisioned paintings. Then they had a run of bad luck.
I referred earlier in this thread to family lore about a collier that broke her back in the Tyne. That's not just a legend. It's so. But she wasn't just a coastal trader. The "New Zealand" was brand new, large and taking a load of coal all the way to Aden. She loaded at the North Eastern Railway's brand new dock (which was open for business in spite of construction not being completely finished), went aground in the basin while being piloted out and was a total loss. There followed an expensive, protracted, and ultimately unsuccessful lawsuit and countersuit. Whatever was left of the family money, the lawyers got. Joseph went bankrupt and emigrated.
You can read the summaries of the suit and subsequent appeal in Google Books. Unfortunately, I cannot post the links directly. However if you search Google Books for:
"Thompson et al" +"New Zealand"
you should have no problem finding them. There are pages and pages of it - enough to put you to sleep tonight - grin.
More coming,
Westoe
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Dear Westoe: Thank you for your reply. I did not intend to make my previous message hidden from others I am still not sure about how and where replies go and I wanted to reply to your previous post and clicked incorrectly.
I am not concerned about money or where any money went, but found your info about the perils of the shipping business and how expensive lawyers are very interesting. This illustrates truth then and now.
I don't think that it was Julian who made the comment about the family not getting into steam ships but another.
It wasn't until the mid 1860s when insurance for steam ships began to exceed that of sail (according to one site speaking of Lloyd's insurance) so again I didn't think much of their judgment either way, sailing ships remained profitable for many decades beyond the death of all those concerned.
Enoch was certainly older in the 1848 list of ships but all the sons-in-law were still relatively young men, certainly under the age of 30 so for them to have shares in ships was their beginnings in business and it might appear to me, they might just be trying to stay afloat in what was not only a perilous business but also a cutthroat business.
As far as what ships are what type, who owned them and when, and when they sailed, I will go over my researcher again. I have found information on some of the ships and their trips before, during and after they were known to be owned or co-owned by the Thompson or Lee or other related families.
I will look for the lawsuit you mentioned and have a read of that as well.
All information about the families is welcome and I wait with great interest for your next installment.
All the best, Cherie Lynn
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Hello Cherielynn,
A few odd bits and pieces:
1) THOMPSON and LEE selling a barque
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, September 10, 1852; Issue 9275.
2) THOMPSON and LEE partnership dissolved
The Leeds Mercury (Leeds, England), Monday, September 8, 1862; Issue 7615
and also
Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Monday, September 8, 1862; Issue 4548
and also
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, September 12, 1862; Issue 9794
3) Double wedding of EDT's daughters:
Mary Ann THOMPSON to Thomas Smith HENZELL, master mariner and shipowner and inventor. (You may like to add the Ann Henzell, the Mary Henzell and the Thomas Fielden to your list of ships) and
Jane THOMPSON to James Bolton ROBERTSON, commercial traveller
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, December 14, 1849; Issue 9132
Cheers,
Westoe
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P.S. I said in my next-to-last post that Joseph Logan THOMPSON went bankrupt. So did the partnership of THOMPSON & LEE. Certainly not the only ones. In Google Books, you can find references to the bankruptcies of some of the others incl. John SNOWDON and James ROBERTSON.
Cheers,
Westoe
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P.P.S.
By now in your combing of Google Books backwards and forwards and sideways, one book should have jumped out at you as a useful one to buy for information on this family. I refer to:
Black Wolf: The Life of Ernest Thompson Seton
By Betty Keller
Published by Douglas & McIntyre, 1984
It comes up quite frequently on eBay. I have had the honour of knowing many of her sources.
Cheers,
Westoe
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I've been doing a bit of tidying up on my info for my mate, and have unearthed a few things that had to date remained hidden to me (but others may have already unearthed them).
I had been struggling to locate Henry Lee in 1871. But I have now found him in Liverpool. This makes sense because as Cherielynn has already posted, his daughters Harriet and Caroline married the Kidd brothers in Liverpool. Anyway, Henry was a Ship Broker, living at 136 Crown Street, Liverpool, with wife Ann, daughter Clara Jane, 2 lodgers and a servant.
I have also found Mary Thompson nee Logan in the 1861 census. Enoch Donkerley Thompson is at daughter Annie Lee's house, but I couldn't find his wife anywhere. No wonder, because she was in St Helier Jersey with son Evan the medical student. I found this by checking the entry for 13 Albion Terrace, Westoe - which said unoccupied - away in Jersey (or something like that) - and hey presto. But this will, I am sure, not be news for westoe!
I am pretty sure that Cherielynn is right about Clara Jane Lee marrying John Kendall.
Now to get to grips with google books ::)
JULIAN
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I have also found Mary Thompson nee Logan in the 1861 census. Enoch Donkerley Thompson is at daughter Annie Lee's house, but I couldn't find his wife anywhere. No wonder, because she was in St Helier Jersey with son Evan the medical student.
For his lungs. Earlier in this thread I mentioned the tuberculosis.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks, Westoe - I thought as much when I saw it.
I am now on the bankruptcy trail. Henry Lee was a sucker for punishment (or a rascal) as I have found him (in the London Gazette) declared bankrupt twice - 30 December 1864 in South Shields, and then again 11 June 1867 in Liverpool. :o
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Does anyone have a Robert M. Thompson born 1824 in County Tyrone, Ireland in their family line??
He married Elizabeth Ann Hamilton abt 1862 in Ontario,,,,,,Elizabeth Ann Hamilton was born in 1846.
I have Robert as the brother of a Joseph L. Thompson which could be Logan.
Spanish Eyes
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I am now on the bankruptcy trail. Henry Lee again 11 June 1867 in Liverpool.
And EDT resigned as one of his assignees in the Liverpool bankruptcy:
Gazette Issue 23273 published on the 9 July 1867. Page 60 of 64
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Hello Cherielynn,
A few more bits and pieces:
1) I expect you've already seen this:
.....Christmas trees in individual homes were still a rarity. The very first one in the town was said to have been brought in by the shipowner Joseph Logan Thompson who, at various times, had homes in Harton Village, Mile End Road and what is now Beach Road.
http://www.shieldsgazette.com/cookson/Christmas-in-the-workhouse.3597681.jp
(http://www.shieldsgazette.com/cookson/Christmas-in-the-workhouse.3597681.jp)
2) A James Hutton KIDD was one of the executors of EDT's will in 1875.
on the 31st day of March, 1875, by William Henry
Dickinson, of Jarrow, in the county of Durham, Farmer,
and James Hutton Kidd, of the same place, Clothier
3) EDT gets a brief mention (for political activity) on P145 of:
The Borough of South Shields: From the Earliest Period to the Close of the Nineteenth Century
By George B. Hodgson
Published by A. Reid, 1903
Cheers,
Westoe
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An elder sister for James Hutton "Gala Apples" Kidd:
Millicent Kidd - birth registered Q4 1876 South Shields Reg District, but Baptised 10 October 1877 Hexham, Northumberland, alongside her (younger) brother James Hutton Kidd.
JULIAN
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Hello Cherielynn,
A few more newspaper account bits and pieces .... but please, .....let me know if you already have them so that I don't keep reinventing the wheel (grin).
1) 1853: Thompson & Lee selling schooner "Ann"
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, April 29, 1853; Issue 9308
2) 1859: Thompson & Lee selling remains of barque "New Zealand" "as she lies" "in her damaged state"
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, June 3, 1859; Issue 9623
3) 1859: Thompson & Lee selling salvaged stores from barque "New Zealand"
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, June 3, 1859; Issue 9623
4) 1842: Marriage of Henry Lee to Ann Thompson
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, January 21, 1842; Issue 8720
5) 1858: Henry Lee elcted Town Councillor for Jarrow Ward, South Shields
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, June 11, 1858; Issue 9572.
6) 1860: Henry Lee and JLT unsuccessful in reelection munipally
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, November 2, 1860; Issue 9697
7) 1860: Henry Lee successful as plaintiff against charterer of "Cambyses" (includes small bit of case Thompson et al v. railway)
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, November 2, 1860; Issue 9697
8 ) 1867: Marriage of Anne Mary Lee to W H Dickinson
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, September 13, 1867; Issue 10055.
9) 1864: Death of Henry Lee jr in a fall in shipyard
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, October 28, 1864; Issue 9905.
10) 1868: Foundering of barque "Logan", prop. of Henry Lee, L'pool
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, August 28, 1868; Issue 10105
11) 1860: and a truly pathetic one illuminating all that has been said about the dangers of shipping - a truly horrible piece of news that condemns those waiting and hoping to weeks more of dreadful uncertainty. This one you'll have to look up and read for yourself.
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, March 2, 1860; Issue 9662
Signing off for a while. When I come back, I'll have some questions for you (including a reiteration of what I already posed in Post #14 of this thread).
Cheers,
Westoe
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Actually, here's one more - from The Newcastle Courant, Fri., 3 Oct. 1879, Issue 10683
Local Failures .... James Hutton KIDD of No. 16, King Street, South Shields, and Nos. 43 and 45, Ormonde Street, Jarrow, tailor, hatter, and outfitter, with liabilities 4,500 {GBP - I can't just now remember the ASCII code for it on my keyboard}, and assets 3,000 {GBP}. The Registrar has appointed Mr. J. M. Winter of Market Street, Newcastle, receiver and manager, on the application of Mr. Rennoldson, solicitor, of South Shields.
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and .... just one more little bit. Have a look at this picture:
http://cityofadelaide.org.au/images/stories/Ship/C423_William_Pile_Shipyard_North_Sands_about_1830.jpg
This is where, not so very long after this picture was painted, the "Alice Thompson" was built. She was a sweet little ship - on one of her early voyages (1852), she did "a distance of 980 miles, through a most intricate passage, in four days."
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9) 1864: Death of Henry Lee jr in a fall in shipyard
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, October 28, 1864; Issue 9905.
Interesting, this one, as it describes Henry Lee snr as "one of the proprietors of the dockyard" of Metcalf & Lee. Do we know anything about Metcalf?
JULIAN
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Actually, here's one more - from The Newcastle Courant, Fri., 3 Oct. 1879, Issue 10683
Local Failures .... James Hutton KIDD of No. 16, King Street, South Shields, and Nos. 43 and 45, Ormonde Street, Jarrow, tailor, hatter, and outfitter, with liabilities 4,500 {GBP - I can't just now remember the ASCII code for it on my keyboard}, and assets 3,000 {GBP}. The Registrar has appointed Mr. J. M. Winter of Market Street, Newcastle, receiver and manager, on the application of Mr. Rennoldson, solicitor, of South Shields.
... according to the London Gazette, the Kidds were residing at Park Road, Newcastle-upon-Tyne at the time. Another example of bankruptcy leading to emigration (in this case New Zealand), I assume?
JULIAN
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Just thought I'd summarise where I am with this very interesting set of families. It seems bankruptcy was more of a likelihood for them than not.
Enoch Donkerley Thompson and Mary Ann Logan had five children:
Annie Thompson married Henry Lee, a ship-owner's son of Sunderland, and he went bankrupt twice - in South Shields 1864 and then in Liverpool 1867; Annie and he were dead by 1875. They had six children (see below)
Joseph Logan Thompson married Alice Snowden, from another South Shields shipowning family. Joseph was in partnership with his father and then Henry Lee; he went bankrupt in 1865 and emigrated to Canada. There were 11 children, who I assume all went to Canada, including Ernest Evan Thompson (aka Ernest Thompson Seton).
Mary Anne Thompson who married Thomas Smith Henzell from another Tyneside shipping family (Henzell's sister married a Snowden). Both dead by 1874 and no children that I can find.
Jane Thompson married James Bolton Robertson, a Sunderland Draper, who filed for bankruptcy in 1861, and died in 1869 in the Alnwick area. Jane was in London in 1871, but she and the three known children disappear into the ether at that point.
Evan Thompson died from TB in 1864.
So by the time they died in 1875, It looks like EDT and his wife had none of their children to hand. Consequently, husbands of two of the granddaughters via Annie and Henry Lee were EDT's executors.
Annie Thompson and Henry Lee had six children:
Henry Thompson Lee - died in a shipyard in 1864
Anne Mary Lee married William Henry Dickinson, farmer and butcher of Jarrow, and subsequently Alderman and Justice of the Peace. William was one of EDT's executors. 7 children.
Caroline Lee married John Kidd, Provender dealer of Liverpool and son of an Irish Wholesale Clothier. John Kidd bankrupt 1871. By 1880 in Indianapolis, USA with 3 children, the first of whom was born in Liverpool.
Harriet Alice Lee married James Hutton Kidd a Liverpool clothier (John's elder brother). By 1879 filed for bankruptcy on his Jarrow Tailor and outfitting business. James was EDT's other executor. Assumed emigrated to New Zealand by 1881 - 3 children - two born in north east england, including James Hutton Kidd of Gala and other apples fame.
Charles Havelock Lee married, in 1881, Elizabeth Torrance Hardle Foster, daughter of a Dumfries man who had settled in Jarrow. Charles did not follow the family pattern - he was a sailor and it is assumed that is why he is hard to find in the census - died in Cardiff area 1901. 3 children.
Clara Jane Lee married John Kendall, Timber Merchant of Liverpool. Stayed and thrived in Liverpool area - 4 children.
All four Lee girls married in Liverpool between 1868 and 1873.
Next main area of investigation now has to be Henry Lee's siblings :o
JULIAN
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Annie Thompson married Henry Lee, a ship-owner's son of Sunderland, and he went bankrupt twice - in South Shields 1864 and then in Liverpool 1867; Annie and he were dead by 1875. JULIAN
Grin .... are you quite sure of that, julianb??? I suspect that you are assuming that because two grandsons-in-law were EDT's executors, that there were no other male relatives available.
Annie Lee visited Joseph in Canada in 1877, possibly even went on to Indiana.
Black Wolf: The Life of Ernest Thompson Seton - Page 62
by Betty Keller - Naturalists - 1984 - 240 pages
... Will Tell L In 1877 Joseph Logan Thompson's older sister Ann Lee came to
visit the Thompson family in Toronto, and in the course of her stay she brought
...
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Annie Thompson married Henry Lee, a ship-owner's son of Sunderland, and he went bankrupt twice - in South Shields 1864 and then in Liverpool 1867; Annie and he were dead by 1875. JULIAN
Grin .... are you quite sure of that, julianb??? I suspect that you are assuming that because two grandsons-in-law were EDT's executors, that there were no other male relatives available.
When it comes to family history you can never be absolutely sure of anything ;) I always view "conclusions" as an opening bid in a game of cards :)
My last post was based on the information before me, and I'm glad that you've been able to improve on that. I could find no evidence that Henry nor Annie were still alive and kicking; without sending off for certificates, I would not be able to prove or disprove the conclusion I had drawn that Annie had died in Liverpool in 1874 and Henry in South Shields in 1875.
(My conclusion on JDT's executors was a result of that evidence before me. JDT might well have written Henry Lee out of his affairs anyway because of HL's repeated business failures ;D)
You going to spill more beans on this, then?
JULIAN
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Aw, pshaw...... that last little piece of information I gave you was readily available from Google Books. (In fact, that's where I cut and pasted that quote from - because I still don't have access to my own stuff). Grin ... I don't think you've even combed through there yet.
What I'd like, is full names and dates for all Annie Lee's children, their spouses and their children. I know that I had a lot of gaps in my lists.
Cheers,
Westoe
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:o My, my but this thread has been very quiet for eight weeks. Is there nothing to talk about? Or just too much Christmas?
How about twins? Anyone want to discuss twins? Twins are always interesting - and sometimes useful. They tend to run in families and to manifest in alternate generations.
Since there aren't, to my knowlege, twins in the Thompson line, one wonders about Charles Havelock's girls. Did they result from the genetic imput of Elizabeth Foster's parents or from that of Grandpa Henry Lee? Do you know any other twins in Lee descendents?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi Julian,
I have some info which may help you,
George Havelock 1688-1749 Clock maker married Mary Barry 1704-1766
Marriage Guisborough 6th Jan 1754
William 1728 Guisborough died 10th Oct 1777 Sunderland shipbuilder, married Anne Longbottom 1728 Sunderland her father Jacob Longbottom
Children
William 1756 2nd Dec. Sunderland died 24June 1836 Hievetree Devon, maried Jane Carter 16th August. 1787.Bishopwearmouth
Jacob 27th Dec 1758 Guisborough Died 7th July , 1825 Guisborough, married Margery Postgate
27th May 1795 Guisborough
Mary 1760 died 1823 married Ralph Wheatley1776 Sunderland Parish church
Dorothy 1761 married Wiliam Huntrods 2nd Sept 1794 Bishopwearmouth
Thomas 20th April 1763, Guisborough died 8th Oct 1845 Darlington Durham married Sophia Louisa Martin 1786
Hannah Nov 1766 Sunderland died 9th Jan 1837 Darlington Durham, married Robert Allen 20th Dec 1792 Newbottle second marriage spouse not known 20th may 1804
ANN HAVELOCK 1770 Sunderland died 5th Sept 1855 married JAMES LEE 8th Jan 1803 Bishopwearmouth
Sir Henry Havelock of Lucknow fame was the 4th child of William 1756 and Jane Carter 14th June 1769 Yarm Yorkshire ,Henry was born 5th April 1795 Ford Hall Durham.he died 25th nov 1857 Lucknow, Alimbaga, India.married Hannah Shepherd Marshman 9th Feb 1829 Scrampore, Calcutta.
My 8th greatgrandfather was George 1726 Guisborough the Clock maker,he also had a son George 1726, also a clockmaker, he married Sarah Walker,1747 Guisborough
If I can help further let me know.
Regards Margaret
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Hello Cherielynn,
Here's another for your list of family ships:
brig "Jane", 247 tons
partially-owned in the late 1700's by one of Annie Lee's greatgrandfathers and later partially-owned by one of her grandfathers, which would make them respectively 6G- and 5G- grandfathers to you.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Have found my samuel Kidd who married Mary Jane Small (jarrow) were settlers to Logan Utah.
In 1880 they were already there.
How do we find out how they got there and from whence they sailed?
Thank you.
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Hi
I have just stumbled on this thread whilst googling Havelock & Sunderland.
I have Edward Wharlton/Walton Havelock born 1838 child of George & Frances Havelock who marries an Eliza Carter DOM 1859 Sunderland.
I saw other Havelocks marring Carters on this link and wondered if there was a connection.
Also have John Chapman Lord who married Eliza's sister Mary . John is a shipbroker in 1857 living in Church walk Sunderland wondered if there is any info on him or the Havelocks please?
Best wishes
Jenny
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Jenny wrote:
Also have John Chapman Lord who married Eliza's sister Mary . John is a shipbroker in 1857 living in Church walk Sunderland
Hello Jenny,
Was his father also named John? Did he have a younger brother named William? And another brother George who died in infancy?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi Westoe,
No his Father was George Lord & Mother Elizabeth Chapman. John Chapman born 1834, did have a brother George but no William. His Father George had a brother William though.
Best wishes
Jenny
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Hello Jenny,
Sorry then, I haven't any help for you.
Cheers,
Westhoe
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Hi Westoe,
No his Father was George Lord & Mother Elizabeth Chapman. John Chapman born 1834, did have a brother George but no William. His Father George had a brother William though.
Best wishes
Jenny
Hi Jenny,
Don't suppose your George Lord was born in Sunderland in 1829 and recorded as a shipbroker? (Daughter Emily?)
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Julian,
I have been reading this post and I'm always interested in the responses, I thought I'd add my connection to your shipbuilders.
My connection is through my paternal grandmother, Kathleen Featherstonhaugh.
My connection through my grandmother is Richard Charles Thompson, born 15/08/1857 in Sunderland, he died in 1918. He was a shipbuilder, living in Belsize Park Gardens. Richard married Millicent Frances Featherstonhaugh. Richard was a partner of the Robert Thompson & Sons Yard. I don't know if he is connected to Enoch Thompson in your first posting.
Regards, Alison
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Hi Still hoping someone could tell me how people got to Utah from the Jarrow area in the 1870's
Any suggestions?
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This may not be relevant but an advertisement in the 'Sunderland Weekly Echo and Times' of Friday 22nd. June 1883 gives an example of what was available.
Allan Line Royal Mail Steamers to the United States and Canada from Liverpool.
Hanoverian, for Quebec, June 18.
Hibernian, for Halifax and Baltimore, June 19.
Peruvian, for Quebec, June 21.
Nestorian, for Quebec, June 21.
Austrian, for Boston, June 28.
Sarmatian, for Quebec, June 28.
Caspian, for Halifax and Baltimore, July 3.
Parisian, for Quebec, July 5.
OCEAN RATES.
Saloon, 12 to 21 Guineas; Intermediate 8 pounds; Steerage 4 pounds 4 shillings.
Through tickets at special rates to Chicago, and to all points in the Western States and Canada.
Note; The best, quickest, and cheapest route for Manitoba and the Great North West is by the Mail Steamers of this Line.
Assisted Passages to Halifax are granted to General Labourers, Mechanics &c., for 4 pounds, and to Agriculturists, Agricultural Labourers, and Female Domestic Servants for 3 pounds; and Through to the Inland Points in Canada at Special Rates.
Passengers landing at Quebec and going inland are accompanied on the Railway by the Company's special conductor.
Full particulars on application to
ALLAN BROTHERS & Co.,
James Street, Liverpool.
Stan
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Thank you so much Stan for your prompt reply.
Yes, this is useful and I can investigate. My family, the Kidds and Smalls left in the 1870's and ended up in Utah. What a journey it must have been.
The Kidds came from Staffordshire Moorlands. Can the local papers of that time be accessed via the internet as I am in Lancashire?
Many thanks,
Patricia
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Hi Patricia,
Local Nineteenth Century Newspapers are available online, but unfortunately they are subscription sites available only to libraries and universities etc. Occasionally they have a free trial period for anyone, the last one was about three months ago and there will probably will be another in the future. It is worth checking to see if your local library subscribes. A lot of libraries subscribe to "The Times" digital archive, but of course that is London based.
Stan
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Thank you Stan.
I will contact my library. It is a shame we cannot get it on Ancestry.
Best Wishes,
Patricia
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Can the local papers of that time be accessed via the internet as I am in Lancashire?
Many thanks,
Patricia
Hello Patricia,
The Lancashire County Public Library has those databases in their Online Reference Library. If you are a member, you can access them from your home computer.
Cheers,
Westoe
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.My connection through my grandmother is Richard Charles Thompson, born 15/08/1857 in Sunderland, he died in 1918. He was a shipbuilder, living in Belsize Park Gardens. I don't know if he is connected to Enoch Thompson in your first posting.
Regards, Alison
Hello Alison,
Sorry. I can tell you with authority that he isn't.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
Thank you.
I have had a little look. Will delve deeper.
Pity there are not any staffordshire papers on.
Best wishes,
atricia
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Re: Ship owners - Sunderland & South Shields
« Reply #71 on: Thursday 12 March 09 21:35 GMT (UK) »
~~~~~~~~
Quote from: jennyM on Thursday 12 March 09 13:43 GMT (UK)
Hi Westoe,
No his Father was George Lord & Mother Elizabeth Chapman. John Chapman born 1834, did have a brother George but no William. His Father George had a brother William though.
Best wishes
Jenny
Hi Jenny,
Don't suppose your George Lord was born in Sunderland in 1829 and recorded as a shipbroker? (Daughter Emily?)
Anniemudge:
Yes thats right George Lord brother to my John Chapman Lord married Eliza Jane Lister and had Emily Lord 1855.
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....I have also found Mary Thompson nee Logan in the 1861 census....
JULIAN
A niggley little item to tidy up. Her name was not Mary Thompson, but Mary Ann Thompson.
Ann, Mary and Mary Ann are three separate and distinct names. It is not uncommon to find families with three living daughters named so.
Look at this family. EDT and Mary Ann had daughters Ann (named for her grandmothers) who married LEE and Mary Ann (named for her mother) who married HENZELL.
The name Mary Ann, with spelling variations, persists in the Thompson families.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Just thought I'd summarise where I am with this very interesting set of families. It seems bankruptcy was more of a likelihood for them than not. .....he went bankrupt twice .....he went bankrupt in 1865 ...... filed for bankruptcy in 1861 ..... bankrupt 1871..... 1879 filed for bankruptcy .....
JULIAN
Another niggley item. It is somewhat mean-spirited to lay so much emphasis on the bankruptcies.
These were smallish family-owned businesses. Unlike the Enron and Hollinger executives, it was their own money they lost. And they were operating in a far different marketplace than today's - no gov't grants, no tax incentives, no affirmative-action incentives and when they got into trouble, no taxpayer-funded bail-outs.
Bankruptcy was as constant a possibility in those times as cholera, infant mortality and the workhouse. The Gazettes and the newspapers carry thousands of bankruptcy notices.
What did these people do when that happened? They picked themselves up, tightened their belts, most often tried something else and went to work building up again.
Emphazing the bankruptcies, as you have done, implies that these were shameful people. They were not.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Was Archibald Henry LEE, (son of Charles Havelock LEE and Florence), an officer in the Welsh Rifles in WWI?
Cheers,
Westhoe
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Hi
If you go to the Library, in the reference part ask for ,' The Dictionary of Tyne Sailing Ships' it is a great book and names all the ships and owners and their sailing destinations, it might just have what you are looking for.. If you can not find it in Sunderland I'm sure Newcastle central library will have a copy.
best wishes Malcolm
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re earlier question from Westoe
Archibald Henry Lee did serve in the Welsh Regiment during WW1 - in particular in Egypt . I believe he was a captain
cheers
Archielee
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So this is he then?
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/MartCH/scan0001-1.jpg)
See text at:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t84981.html
Cheers,
Westoe
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Dear Westoe
This is indeed him - Thank you so much for the link much appreciated
cheers
Archielee
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Was the Henry Havelock LEE, tobacconist in Builth Wells c. 1934, a descendant of the Anne (Thompson) and Henry LEE of this thread?
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The Henry Havelock LEE, born 27/4/1911, was a direct descendant of Henry Lee/Ann Thompson but do not believe he was your tobacconist of builth wells.
Henry Havelock Lee got married in 1934 in Machen near Caerphilly and at the time was an office clerk
cheers
Archielee
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Thank you Archielee - the combination of names had me wondering.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Is this Henry Havelock LEE the son of the above-mentioned Archibald Henry LEE?
Gazette Issue 33733 published on the 7 July 1931. Page 25 of 108
"5th Bn. Welch R.-The undermentioned to be 2nd Lts. 8th July 1831:-
Henry Havelock Lee ....."
Cheers,
Westoe
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How did Anne Mary LEE (daughter of Henry and Annie) meet her future husband William Henry DICKINSON? Could it have been because her maternal grandfather (EDT) and his paternal grandfather were business partners since long before she was born? That connection existed since 1830's.
Cheers,
Westoe
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I had had a certain sympathy for Henry Lee (husband of Ann Thompson) over the very public 'pasting' he took from the Board of Trade and the newspapers over the loss of one of his later ships. Now as details of his own sea-going career come out, that lessens. He should have known better.
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Another niggley item to clear up:
...Enoch Donkerley Thompson and Mary Ann Logan had five children: ....
JULIAN
These are only the five children who survived into adulthood. There were more.
Cheers,
Westoe
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When widowed Clara (Lee) Kendall travelled to America to visit her sister Caroline (Lee) Kidd in 1913, was Caroline then living in Boston?
Cheers,
Westoe
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I can't speak to 1913 but 20 Jan 1915 John died and was buried Boston, Suffolk County, Massachusetts; Burial: Mount Hope Cemetery grave number 5342 Section F , Caroline passed 16 Jan 1920 and is buried next to him. Their son, artist, Reginald Sherman Kidd was in Boston at the time but records are few. R. Sherman and wife Flora, are last seen going for a trip to Scotland, France and Spain in 1924, back in Lake Worth, Palm Beach County, Florida by 1925 and then drop off the face of the earth again. I finally found son Ernest Evan Seton Kidd died Wheat Ridge, Colorado buried Mount Olivet next to his wife Anna nee Fisher. I put John and Caroline and Ernest and Anna on findagrave I also added E. D. and Mary Ann as well as Henry and Annie. Harry remains a complete mystery.
I have been and am puny, so is mother and also my eldest son. But I have missed Westoe. I wish I was a better writer then maybe I wouldn't be so shy. Cheers, Cherie Lynn
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Yes, I've seen all your virtual gravestones. (Smile) One can hardly turn around on the internet without bumping into you. (Smile)
That record of Clara Kendall is on familysearch "New York Passenger Arrival Lists (Ellis Island), 1892-1924."
She arrived 26 April, 1913 (almost exactly 98 years ago) on the CELTIC.
Cheers,
Westoe
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And to answer my own question, no.
At that date Mrs. John Kidd was living at 216 Borday Streeet, Flushing, New York.
Cheers,
Westoe
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The Palm Beach Post April 30 1920 reported from Lake Worth that the Palm Beach County Art Club will inspect the latest painting of R. Sherman Kidd "The Spanish Armada" among others.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hMIiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LLYFAAAAIBAJ&dq=sherman-kidd&pg=991%2C6163402
The Museum of Wisconsin In Art had R Sherman listed as a Wisconsin artist this led me to look for the family in Milwaukee. City Directory 1894 has John and Harry both listed at the Republican House Hotel.
Then I got lost and found the 1862 lawsuit in Canada brought by ship owners John Snowden and Henry Havelock Lee.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Gio1AAAAIAAJ&dq=%22henry%20havelock%20lee%22&pg=PA91#v=onepage&q=%22henry%20havelock%20lee%22&f=false
Cherie
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
If you look back through this thread, you'll see that I gave you that lawsuit over two years ago. It is noticeworthy for the fact that one of the plaintiffs is named as Henry Havelock Lee - definitely our Henry but the only official time I have seen him named so.
I have asked you since, more than once, if you have evidence for Havelock being his middle name. You haven't replied.
I've now seen his death certificate. Havelock isn't on it. Whence cometh this supposed middle name Havelock and what proof is there for it?
His older brother has Havelock for a middle name, but please cite me some proof that Henry had it for a middle name as well.
This is supposed to be an exchange of information, please remember.
Cheers,
Westoe
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I have found many "new" things in the last couple of years that have excited me to no end. But when I have shared them, I have had one cousin or another to remind me that either they sent the info to me years before or I had sent it to them years before. So one fun thing about loosing memory - all genealogy finds are new. I have never seen a record with Henry Lee's middle name other than the court case. Maybe Havelock wasn't his middle name, maybe he just said that thinking the court would be impressed with Havelock.
I am very sorry if I have not shared enough and if my memory fails me. Loosing memory and becoming seriously ill is to say the least traumatic. I may not remember every thing you posted.
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22 September, 1912, Harriet Alice Kidd and daughter Millicent Kidd arrived in New York on ship PHILADELPHIA enroute from Southampton to New Zealand.
Source: Ellis Island
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15 May 1880 James Hutton Kidd and Harriet Alice Lee Kidd and Family arrive in New Zealand
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS18800515.2.3.1&srpos=1&e=--1877---1945--10--1----2millicent+kidd--
New Zealand Papers Past LYTTELTON Star , Issue 3770, 15 May 1880, Page 2
maybe you told me this one before, I can't remember.
James Hutton Kidd Obit
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19130821.2.49&srpos=13&e=-07-1913--09-1913--10--11----2kidd--
New Zealand Papers Past PERSONAL MATTERS Evening Post, Volume LXXXVI, Issue 45, 21 August 1913, Page 7
James Hutton Kidd Inquest
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19130822.2.87&srpos=11&e=-07-1913--09-1913--10--11----2kidd--
New Zealand Papers Past THREE INQUESTS Evening Post, Volume LXXXVI, Issue 46, 22 August 1913, Page 8
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As far as I know from what I have here with me,
Harriet Alice Lee Kidd (1849-1948) and
James Hutton Kidd (1843-1913) had seven children:
- Henry Lee Kidd (1873-1958)
B. Sc. New Zealand 1892
- Millicent Kidd (1876-post 1945)
- James Hutton Kidd (1877-1945)
m. 1916 Ethel Laura Gilbert
- Roland or Rowland Kidd (1880-pre 1945)
- Wilfred Winton Kidd (1883-1944)
m. 1916 Isabella Annie Merlet d. 1938
- Charles Havelock Kidd (1892-post 1945)
- Hubert Grattan Kidd (1895-post 1945)
Millicent and Hubert both went to California (together?).
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Using your post
Harriet Alice Lee Kidd (1849-1948) and
James Hutton Kidd (1843-1913) had seven children:
I can’t find the 1945 obit now but had all siblings included as d after 1945, exceptions see below.
- Henry Lee Kidd (1873-1958)
B. Sc. New Zealand 1892
of Greytown in 1945 I didn’t have a DOD
One – had - BS from NEW ZEALAND UNIVERSITY. Star , Issue 7345, 19 August 1892, Page 3
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS18920819.2.30&srpos=1&e=--1877---1945--10--1----2henry+lee+kidd--
- Millicent Kidd (1876-post 1945)
Has a record in California Passengers and Crew List 1893 – 1957, Ancestry.com
Arrived 4 Aug 1923 from Honolulu, Hawaii, in Los Angeles on the City of Los Angeles age 45 b about 1878 in Jarrow on Thime, England (Transcription error) last residence Territory of Hawaii.
I have died 1961 New Zealand can’t remember why or if correct.
- James Hutton Kidd (1877-1945)
m. 1916 Ethel Laura Gilbert
Famous for his horticulture accomplishments – his created – Gala Apple is tasty.
James died 24 OCT 1945 and wife called Lola – Lola died 1970 in Eastbourne, New Zealand left everything to the foundation in NZ.
- Roland or Rowland Kidd (1880-pre 1945)
All I have is a R A my note says maybe 7th child of
- Wilfred Winton Kidd (1883-1944)
m. 1916 Isabella Annie Merlet d. 1938
marriage
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=WCHG19160201.2.31.3&srpos=3&e=--1877---1945--10--1----2winton+kidd--
New Zealand, Electoral Rolls, 1853-1981 - 1935 Wairarapa, in Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
died Carterton, Wellington, New Zealand
Per NZ record index – can find that again
Wife obit
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19380902.2.3&srpos=10&e=--1919---1940--10--1----0harry+kidd--
- Charles Havelock Kidd (1892-post 1945)
of England from the 1945 obit – I didn’t – or don’t remember finding a middle name – I think.
- Hubert Grattan Kidd (1895-post 1945)
Hubert G has an arrival in 16 May 1936 in Los Angeles, Ca on the Ship Mariposa – from Auckland. A Bank Clerk He stated he was born in Christchurch, New Zealand age 40 b about 1896. He papers were issued in Washington, D.C. in 11/29/35. Last permanent Address LA, Ca – Nearest relative is a friend – Mrs Frank William LA.
California Passengers and Crew List 1893 – 1957, Ancestry.com
A Hubert G has a record in the California Death Index 1940 – 1997, Ancestry.com – Birth 7 Sep 1895 place (Rest of World) D 22 Aug 1960 in Alameda mother’s maiden name Lee.
I didn’t find what the G is for
Don’t know if Millicent and Hubert went together
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...
- Henry Lee Kidd (1873-1958)
B. Sc. New Zealand 1892
of Greytown in 1945 I didn’t have a DOD
Died 26 July, 1958, cremated 28 July 1958
- Roland or Rowland Kidd (1880-pre 1945)
All I have is a R A my note says maybe 7th child of
Birth registered as child of JHK and HAK.
- Charles Havelock Kidd (1892-post 1945)
of England from the 1945 obit – I didn’t – or don’t remember finding a middle name – I think.
Birth registered with that middle name.
- Hubert Grattan Kidd (1895-post 1945)
A Hubert G has a record in the California Death Index 1940 – 1997, Ancestry.com – Birth 7 Sep 1895 place (Rest of World) D 22 Aug 1960 in Alameda mother’s maiden name Lee.
I didn’t find what the G is for
Birth registered with that middle name.
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Wonderful work on the Harriet Alice Lee Kidd and James Hutton Kidd family, and everything else for that matter.
I have wondered about Enoch Donkerley and if what has been found is correct.
Maybe you posted all this before – but I googled Enoch Donkerley and found a 2008 post referring to an Enoch Donkerley’s estate and “The Coleman Deeds”
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DUR-NBL/2008-12/1230265631
I changed the google a bit and turned up
Tyne and Wear Museum and Archives has a record of an Enoch Donkerley at
http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/DServe2/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=NaviTree.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqItem=DX797/2&dsqField=RefNo
that includes info about title deeds and the estate of Enoch Donkerley, South Shields, sailmaker, which names daughter Ann and her husband Evan Thompson, South Shields, Sailmaker, and daughter Margaret and her husband Peter Muncaster, South Shields, Shipwright.
The above site has 4 more records of an Enoch.
A google of Enoch produced a 2002 post
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Mariners/2002-03/1016501633
which refers to two ships owned by an Enoch Donkerley – one for sale 1786 The "Robert and Ann" and – and half interest for sale 1786 in the "John and Jane".
Maybe you sent me this before. Is this our Ann’s father? Is her mother known? Or anything else of interest.
If there is anything I was asked to share and have forgotten, please let me know.
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Much is known and all of it interesting. Some of it, like these bits, openly available on the internet, but a good deal more of it acquired with the expense of much time, money and labour - over 1,000 hours on the BT's alone.
I've paid for certificates and books and microfiche and photocopies and transcripts and library memberships. I've done dogsbody work through records accessible to me here on other people's behalves so that they would reciprocate for me there.... I've too much invested to just give it away.
Don't explode again, lass, but you need to go back and recheck these sources you are citing.
e.g. the Mariners List posting (which has been in plain Google sight for nine years) *does not* say that Enoch Donkerley had any ownership position in those two ships - merely that the sale was being conducted at his place. The person who posted the query cited the source for the information. You can do as I did - buy a copy of that book.
e.g. in the Tyne and Wear Archives citation, you have misnamed Margaret's husband.
But (smile) I don't want to be entirely discouraging. Yes, you have references there to EDT's parents and maternal grandfather. And there is much more openly available on the internet (including his grandmother's name, his aunts, his uncles and his cousins by dozens). Good hunting.
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Thank you very much for your reply. I typed Muncaster as it is written in the Tyne and Wear record. You are right the post does not say who owned the ships, my sincere apologies. I have only recently learned that googling from an actual google page is much more effective than googling from my ISP browser, so I am finding lots of old information.
I too have spent 1,000s of hours, much more than that in money with subscriptions, original records, micro film, microfiche, books, and travel to research in several countries. I have done countless hours of free lookups at the National Archives in Washington, D.C., several states in the union and other countries for family and friends and even strangers. I didn't realize this was in any way a matter of money.
As far as been a lass, that is incorrect. I learned to research at my grandmother's knee, holding onto her skirt hem while walking into dusty county records basements long over 50 years ago.
As far as asking you about Enoch Donkerley, I was really just trying to continue the posts. Once - shame on you. Twice - shame on me.
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The name in the Tyne and Wear Archives is Robert Muncaster, not Peter.
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Touche! What used to take me 10 minutes to write accurately, now takes me an hour and is rife with errors.
It may be a light stroke, but it is debilitating.
I will bow out. I should have bowed out before now when I could have done so gracefully.
regards
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John Kidd is enumerated as a lawyer in 1880 US Census. Here are two mentions of possible John Kidds.
1) news article "About People" in newspaper Indianapolis Sentinel 4 September, 1878.
"John Kidd was yesterday admitted to practice in the superior and criminal courts."
2) from Google Books:
Manufacturing and mercantile resources of Indianapolis, Indiana: a ... - Page 539
1883 - 269 pages - Full view
"This branch of business was founded by Mr. John Kidd, attorney and counsellor at law, in 1877. "
[actually page 166 of 289 if book downloaded]
referring to "The World's Collection Bureau" located 87 East Market Street, Indianapolis.
Comments, anyone?
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More anent "the book" in The Mariners List posting (replies #108, #109 of this thread), namely:
Notes on The History of Shipbuilding in South Shields 1746-1946 by Amy C. Flagg
ISBN: 0 906617030
It would be worthwhile for you to get a copy of this for more reasons than those two sales of ships.
'Way back in November, 2008 I was tempted to mention it in response to julianb's reply (#57), but then I didn't, because if he had searched diligently himself, he'd have found the reference. Pages 77 and 78 contain a potted history of the shipbuilding firm Thomas Metcalf and Sons, which was briefly Metcalf & Lee (during which time Harry Lee, the younger, was killed there). It's a one sentence reference to Lee.
Further, as you learn more about EDT, his associates, his business dealings, his background and his ships, you'll recognize a lot of names in that book. It all helps to provide context for him - actual local history rather than just "begat, begat, begat" pedigree.
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I have taken your advice. abebooks had two copies now they have one. if the print is very small and I have to read it with a magnifying glass I will never forgive you Laddie...:-)
Cherie
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if the print is very small and I have to read it with a magnifying glass I will never forgive you Laddie...:-)
Cherie
No fear, lass - it's readable. Take mind of the names "Lockwood Brodrick" and "James Craistor/Craster" - you'll encounter them again.
Possible, but as yet unproven, vague connection to Wright's, the biscuit people (pp81-83). I've eaten ship's biscuit - there's a bakery in Newfiejohn still makes it - and, yes, it does live up to the old joke about "ship's biscuit made yesterday tastes just as good as ship's biscuit made 120 years ago" - the stuff is virtually indestructible.
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What? - no comment yet on Amy Flagg? Hmm - so possibly no interest either in a ship jointly (50-50) owned by Thomas Metcalfe and Henry Lee (for year + 1/2 only)?
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Or the one with a lurid ("Two Years Before the Mast"-type) past that M & L bought jointly (also 50-50) in 1863 from John Snowdon, in-law to Henry Lee's brother-in-law, (I've previously noted that these people were a clannish lot), and sold on two years later?
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According to their monumental inscription in Westoe Cemetery, Ann (Thompson) LEE died 26 March 1878.
I'm not yet convinced that she is actually buried there (as opposed to being commemorated there) because I have not yet found her death registration or her burial entry. Can anyone help?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Caroline left in 1874 with Harry and second son Ernest and then also had a trip back to the UK and returned again to the US in 1880
On that 1874 trip, did Caroline, Harry and Ernest return to the US on the steamer Republic, arriving New York from Liverpool 31 May 1874, dis-embarking 1 June? If so, they are named in New York Daily Tribune 1 June 1874 under "Passengers Arrived".
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hmmmm. Am I "Johnnie-come-lately" to all my information. Did you already have it all? Is that why there is no response to my posts?
I really did think that after reading "Notes on the History of Ship-Building in South Shields", there would be some comment along the lines of "Yes, I noticed the references to Lockwood Broderick and James Craistor, but I don't see any signifcance of those to this family. Can you explain?" And then it would have been my pleasure to do so. But no - no interest, (though, judging by the numbers, a lot of people are reading the posts), so I begin to think that I am talking to myself on this thread and it's time to give it up.
Cheers,
Westoe
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I know this subject was posted a long time ago but I reached it via a link on a site when I was looking into some of my HAVELOCK ancestors.
The reason for my posting now is regarding the very detailed post about the HAVELOCK line, as there has been an alteration to some of the information given, following the discovery of new documentation regarding the marriage of Thomas HAVELOCK, son of William and Ann nee LONGBOTTOM.
Thomas married Sophia EGERTON, not Sophia Louisa MARTIN, as was previously thought. The marriage took place on 1st September 1796, at St. Mary's Church, Chepstow, Monmouthsire, Wales. This record has been verified and added to the information held by Roger HAVELOCK of The Guild of One Name Studies.
Thomas is my direct ancestor, through his daughter, Ann, who married Henry WOOLGAR. I have lots more on the line if anyone is interested.
I hope this is helpful to anyone researching the HAVELOCK line.
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I know this subject was posted a long time ago but I reached it via a link on a site when I was looking into some of my HAVELOCK ancestors.
The reason for my posting now is regarding the very detailed post about the HAVELOCK line, as there has been an alteration to some of the information given, following the discovery of new documentation regarding the marriage of Thomas HAVELOCK, son of William and Ann nee LONGBOTTOM.
Thomas married Sophia EGERTON, not Sophia Louisa MARTIN, as was previously thought. The marriage took place on 1st September 1796, at St. Mary's Church, Chepstow, Monmouthsire, Wales. This record has been verified and added to the information held by Roger HAVELOCK of The Guild of One Name Studies.
Thomas is my direct ancestor, through his daughter, Ann, who married Henry WOOLGAR. I have lots more on the line if anyone is interested.
I hope this is helpful to anyone researching the HAVELOCK line.
My father's grandfather was Thomas Havelock Block b1874 Sunderland His mother was Mary Isabel Block (or Bloc)nee Havlock (Tho' I suspect that's how her Prussian husband registered her surname ) married Sunderland 1859. I have yet to receive their marriage certificate so that is all I know, tho Thomas Block was quotedas being a relative of General Havelock. Any ideas?
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Sorry about that --------I'm new to this! I posted the info as a quote on your message . Regards Anita.S
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No problem Anita - hopefully you will have received my other reply and I will get back to you soon - I will try anyway. Do let me know when you can re the information from the marriage certificate
Best wishes
Helen
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Hello
I have some further information regarding the Kidd family.
Regards
Terry
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Hello Terry,
Greetings. Which branch of the Kidd family - Ireland, England, New Zealand, Australia or America? And are you also hunting for information?
Cheers,
Westoe
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My grandfather was Charles Havelock Kidd who cames to the UK from New Zealand approx 1917 and moved to Cardiff, Wales in about 1919. My father was born in Cardiff.
Terry
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Hello again, Terry,
Aha!! So your grandfather was the sixth child of Harriet Alice (Lee) Kidd and James Kidd - correct? We'd lost him. From his brother's obituary we believed that he was still alive in 1945, but didn't know where he was living. Splendid. Thank you for posting.
Have you read the whole of this thread? There is quite a bit about the Lees and the Kidds here. Also New Zealand BMD's are online. You can find your grandfather's birth there if you don't already have that. My apologies - this laptop has no right-click functions so I can't post the link tonight, but Google will find it easily.
Cheers,
Westoe
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P. S. Terry,
What was your grandfather's occupation? And did his siblings Milicent and Rowland?/Roland? have middle names? They are the only ones I don't have full names for.
Cheers,
Westoe
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My grandfather came to the UK in 1917. He joined the Royal Flying Corp and was given the rank of Pilot Officer on demob. He married in London and worked for a company called Lewis and Tyler, makers of endless belting. They had a branch in Cardiff where he moved with them as a mechanical engineer.
Can you confirm what your relationship is with the Kidds or the nature of your research.
Regards
Terry
PS unfortunately I do not know the names of the siblings.
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Hello Terry,
My grandfather came to the UK in 1917. He joined the Royal Flying Corp and was given the rank of Pilot Officer on demob.
So this is he - near top of Column 2:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/exact=Havelock+Kidd/start=1
Can you confirm what your relationship is with the Kidds or the nature of your research.
I am not directly interested in the Kidds, because they are not connected to the sea tho', (smile), this spring I am planting an apple tree of the variety "Kidd's Orange Red" bred by your grandfather's older brother James Hutton Kidd. I tasted that apple for the first time last fall.
Your paternal great-grandmother was Harriet Alice (Lee) Kidd.
Your 2G grandmother was Ann (Thompson) Lee.
Your 3G grandfather was Enoch Donkerley Thompson, master mariner, shipowner, alderman and political activist and he does interest me.
Some of your distant Thompson cousins are actively doing genealogy and we share information. I am more comfortable with the computer than they, so I do most of the internet postings.
PS unfortunately I do not know the names of the siblings.
I give those in post #105 of this thread. Post #104 has several links of interest. That post is from a descendant of Harriet Alice Lee's older sister, Mary Caroline Lee, who married John Kidd, brother to your paternal great-grandfather.
Speaking of aldermen, another of Harriet Alice Lee's older sisters, Anne Mary Lee, was married to a long-serving alderman of Jarrow and she is mentioned in the newspapers as "Mrs. Alderman Dickinson".
Your grandfather would have had Lee cousins in Cardiff when he went there - children of his namesake uncle, Charles Havelock Lee.
Did your grandfather have a daughter Blanche?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
My son in law typed the previous replies because he is an IT man and has assisted me in opening your replies.
According to James Hutton Kidd death certificate dated 30/9/1913 John Kidd and Mary Jane Kidd nee Hutton were his parents from Castle Blayney Ireland [I have contacted census for info].
Charles Havelock Kidd had 2 Chidren my father Hubert born 1920 and my aunty Millicent both family names neither with us now, and my father did not impart any info other than Kidd Apples in New Zealand which my Wife and I visited recently in Greytown.
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my father did not impart any info other than Kidd Apples in New Zealand which my Wife and I visited recently in Greytown.
Hello Terry,
I sent you another reply earlier today via PM (personal message). Have you managed to open it?
When you were in Greytown recently, did you visit the cemetery there? Did you photograph headstones? There are two there of which I would like to get photographs for your cousins.
And here's the link to New Zealand BMD's:
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home/
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
I could not open that message, I also sent you the Photographs on either the first or second contact or at least my son in law did.
Regards Terry
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Hello Westoe,
We also visited the Orchard and the original barns and photographed what was Huttons house, much changed from the photographs I have. We also visited Melbourne and the property another branch of the family lived.
Regards Terry
PS I am away for the weekend in the next 2 hours
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Hello Terry,
No, no photographs came. If they had, they would have appeared here on the forum just as the text you type does (as in posts #31, #87 of this thread).
The Melbourne information is of interest. On at least one of their voyages, Harriet and Milicent named a Kidd in Melbourne as next-of-kin, but as it was only an initial and no address, it wasn't very helpful.
Cheers,
Westoe
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If so why did I not have the other message. I will seek help after the weekend
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Hello Terry,
Erm ... yes, you did get the first PM because you have replied to it.
It's a bit confusing at the beginning. Let me explain.
We now have two conversations going on simultaneously; this one on the public thread which anyone with a computer can read, and a private one by PM which only you and I can see.
At the very top margin of this page you will see text that says:
"Welcome back, TKidd, you have *** messages, *** are new."
When you hover the cursor over the word "messages", it becomes underlined indicating that it is a link. Click on that word for entry to the parallel conversation. That will give you your message 'Inbox' to see what I have sent you. Near the top of that page is a link labelled 'Outbox' where you can review what you have sent me. Any information about living people should be exchanged privately.
Cheers,
Westoe
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When Charles H. K. joined the air force, he gave his Auntie Dickinson's address as his home address and his previous occupation as chauffeur.
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The Fornear Family built and sailed ships from South Shields. They married into the Couper family who sailed on the Fornear ships.
I am searching for the ship on which great, grandfather John Robert Fornear Couper came to Australia.
He was still in South Shields on the 1881 Census and the next time I can find him is at the time of his marriage in January 1886 in Wallsend, Newcastle, Australia.
Any suggestions would be gratefully received.
Gumball
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I have missed too much, I am glad to see more posted on the Ship owners descendants through the Thompsons and Lees to the Kidds.
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Hello Westoe,
My son in law typed the previous replies because he is an IT man and has assisted me in opening your replies.
According to James Hutton Kidd death certificate dated 30/9/1913 John Kidd and Mary Jane Kidd nee Hutton were his parents from Castle Blayney Ireland [I have contacted census for info].
I can send you the census records from the time they moved to Lancashire if you like. And I have made a memorial for John Kidd Sr online. I am not sure how to reference it so I hope that Westoe will do that for me.
The 1845 birth cert for my John Kidd Jr names his mother as Mary Jane Nee Hutton, father John Kidd Sr. All that makes perfect sense. I also saw in some list which I will have to try to find again (my memory is truly keeping worse by the month) of a John Kidd pawnbroker and he might have been in Castleblayney - I will search. There was also a post I saw ages ago of someone who had Hutton info and I think that too was Castleblaney.
In 1851, in Armagh, John Kidd married a Mary Jane Walker and I have that marriage record. For that marriage there was also a newspaper notice in Liverpool for that marriage and names the correct address for John Kidd matching the 1851 census address John Kidd to Mary Jane Walker. Then in 1862 Mary Jane Walker Kidd died and there is also a newspaper notice for that, also at the correct address for our John Kidd that matches the 1861 census address, noting the passing of Mary Jane wife of John Kidd, Mary Jane the third daughter of the late Abraham Walker.
So my goal now is to locate the marriage of John Kidd and Mary Jane Hutton and locate the death record of Mary Jane Hutton Kidd which must be before 1851. Whether she would have died in Castleblayney or in Liverpool makes the search that much more difficult.
regards to all, the rapidly aging Kidd
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Hello CherieLynn,
Hello Terry,
I think this is the link CherieLynn wanted me to post for you, Terry.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=74015331
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe thank you for info I will respond and post the photographs when my son in law next visits I am now away for a fortnight.
Terry
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Hello Cherie-Lynn,
Hello Terry,
Just to tell you that tonight I posted a link on the Ireland General board to a Parliamentary Paper on Pawnbroking in Ireland, published in 1838. I looked, but *didn't* find any mention in it of any Kidd in co. Monaghan as pawnbroker, so perhaps John Kidd Sr. was doing something else at the time.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again,
Ah, but he is there 1842/3.
See page 2 of this document:
http://eppi.dippam.ac.uk/documents/11987
Cheers,
Westoe
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Great Stuff Westoe! Thank you. That publication is also available on Google Books.
I did make a request for a look-up for them in Castleblaney and in the parish and the county but that was the only record for a Kidd.
The only record I have ever found of John Sr's father George Kidd is on John's 3rd marriage record to Georgina Batten. No parents on his 2nd marriage to Mary Jane Walker and I have not found the marriage for John to our grandmother Mary Jane Hutton.
John Sr's obit does not say any relations his death cert only names Georgina's cousin and I haven't found a death cert nor the burial for our Mary Jane Hutton Kidd, she is not with John in Lancashire.
John Kidd did have the niece living with him in 1871, an Edith Kidd born about 1862 in Ireland but nothing else.
In 1850 - if this is him - is named as of Liverpool and Dublin, on the left from top about 12th line down.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jqgDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA485&lpg=PA485&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false
And this is a John Kidd and a Jonathan Lee about Pluckett, on the left side of page in middle.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/22609/pages/1500/page.pdf
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Here is another mention for 1846 John Kidd Pawn Broker, York Street
http://www.failteromhat.com/slateru.php
Click on Castleblaney and he is there on the right side under Misc.
Thanks Westoe for the mention of County Monaghan info on Rootschat!
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Thank you for the info did you receive the photographs of the graves from New Zealand, sorry for delay my son in law only visits occasionally. Westoe you were correct regarding my Grandfathers occupation initially, but as you are aware they were exceedenly talented family and my Grandfather was a mechanic and a very good radio repairer.
Regards T.K.
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Hello Terry: No I haven't seen the photos yet. Terry I also sent you a message in your rootschat personal messages check there
regards, Cherie
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Hello Terry,
No ... no photos have ever arrived. Would you like me to take you through how to send them?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
You can try but I have forgotting how to open the individual messages ie private etc. also the photos are in box set up by my son in law. Perhaps he is embarrassed about not giving me a pseudonym because this is the second time he has posted the photos and you have not received them
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Hello Terry,
Not to fret. It takes a lot of practice to do things automatically. We've all been newbies.
To see your private messages, such as the one that is waiting from CherieLynn, go to the top margin of this page, where it says "Welcome back, TKidd. You have ** messages, ** are new. Click your cursor on the word messages.
Next time that your son-in-law is going to be visiting, tell me ahead of time in a private message and I will arrange to be online at that time. He and I can message each other in real time and I can possibly help him to get them posted.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
I think you can appreciate that I can not do that and query his competence, if you send me instructions I will try
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if you send me instructions I will try
Hello Terry,
First installment of instructions has been sent to you offlist, by Private Message.
But ... in your previous-to-this-one post, you wrote:
"the photos are in box set up by my son-in-law"
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "box". Do you mean a zipped, compressed file? a photo stream?
That *may* be the problem - too high-tech for the RootsChat mass message bouncing system. I'm thinking that each image has to be inserted into the post individually.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Further to my last post:
the maximum allowable attachment size here is 500 KB.
Is this "box"of images larger than that?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
I hope Cherielynn has sent the photos to you.
T.K.
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No, nothing yet.
Cheers,
Westoe
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There is an image on this site of the Canadian Bank of Commerce in Kindersley, Saskatchewan, Canada where Hubert Grattan Kidd was working at the time of the 1916 census of the Canadian Prairie provinces. That census information is free online.
http://spldatabase.saskatoonlibrary.ca/internet/LHR_RADQuery.htm (http://spldatabase.saskatoonlibrary.ca/internet/LHR_RADQuery.htm)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Terry,
Do you know when Rowland Kidd died? Our last sighting of him is in the 1924 electoral register where he appears by himself - no mention of his wife.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
The card I have from Rowland to my Grandfather via N.Z. dated feb. 1922 is signed by Rowland no mention of his wife and on the same card a meesage from Marion to my father and aunt. As you say he was in sales and moved quite a lot.
Regards Terry
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Hello Terry,
Erm ... just so's I'm clear .... is that a "No" answer to my question? I haven't found his death yet, just got it down to sometime 1924-1942.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Yes Westoe that is a no but I will go through what I have left of the cards, unfortunatley they were in a fire so what I have is limited, plus not all of my Grandfathers posessions came to me.
Terry
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Hello Westoe,
I have checked all my Grandfathers cards etc and found only one other from Rowland predated the one with Marion at two and half years old.The only other sibling who was in contact was Hubert and he did not mention any of his brothers or sister so I can not help regarding the date of Rowlands death.
Regards Terry
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From Ancestry:
Hubert went to Canada on the steamship NIAGARA from Sydney, Australia arriving 27 April, 1914 at Victoria, British Columbia, and the next day at Vancouver, British Columbia. When did he leave Canada?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
Sorry for delay we have been away for a month. I have checked the cards and info that I have none state when he left Canada. The only comment on Hubert is that my father Hubert Alfred mentioned to me that Hubert owned a very substantial property in England and if he is right I had the pleasure in staying in that property at a young age in about 1952 at the time my Grandmothers Sister and Husband lived at the property.
Regards Terry
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Hi JULIAN
Your friend is correct :)
George Havelock of Guisbrough, North Riding of Yorkshire married a Barry, a relation of the Barry family of Whitby Shipowners. They had three sons and three daughters. His second son Willliam Havelock settled in Sunderland c. 1758, he died 10th Oct. 1777.
William Havelock lived in a large house in Silver Street, Sunderland, and was one of the towns major ship-owners. He married Anne Longboatham, the daughter of Jacob Longboatham, of Guisborough
They had three sons and four daughters, the youngest was Anne Havelock who married James Lee. Their eldest son William Havelock (1757-1837), of Ford Hall, married Jane Carter, 16th Aug. 1787, and they had five sons, the second of which was the famous Sir Henry Havelock K.C.B. (1795-1857).
So Anne Havelock Lee was the aunt of Sir Henry.
Stan
Did that William Havelock Lee (whose name I have bolded in Stan's message above) have a son also named William Havelock Lee who became a master mariner? I have come across one from Sunderland named so being off the coast of Denmark in June 1845.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again, Terry,
In further reply to your question, Hubert is listed as single when he arrived back in California from Auckland on the MARIPOSA 16 May 1936. He was 40 that year - probably a confirmed bachelor by then.
In 1937, he was still with the Canadian Bank of Commerce - that's a 21-year, at least, career with the same employer. Perhaps that bank has an archives?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe,
The reason why I asked on the one card showing the town he was in 1917 he states the window marked with an x is our window but you answered that because he travelled with colleagues and they were put up by his manager. I will try to find the property in Baldock my aunt and uncle lived, wether I can trace any of the owners is another matter.
Terry
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My grandfather was Charles Havelock Kidd who cames to the UK from New Zealand approx 1917 and moved to Cardiff, Wales in about 1919. My father was born in Cardiff.
Terry
Hello Terry,
I think that CHK, your grandfather, must have arrived in England prior to that because, before joining the Air Force, he appears to have served as a private in the Army Service Corps from 13 August 1914 .... unless the forces have muddled their paperwork and their Charles H. Kidd-s.
Go to The National Archives Discovery Catalogue.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI)
Enter "Charles Havelock Kidd" with the quotation marks around it.
That will bring up two entries for him. One of them (AIR /76/275/50088) has been digitized and can be downloaded online for GBP 3.36 by credit card. The other you would have to go to London to the archives to see.
Word of Caution:
When using credit cards online, it is safer to use a disposable MasterCard or Visa rather than a personal card. Disposable gift cards in various denominations are here sold in most grocery stores, pharmacies and gas stations. Probably in UK also.
When you read the one you have just bought, it has a cross reference (MS 4091) to another file which has also been digitized and is also downloadable for a second GBP 3.36 by credit card. Just type that reference number into the search box to bring up the second file.
That second file is WO 372/11/158942 and refers to Charles H. Kidd. That second file is simply an image of six index cards. His is top right, showing him eligible for the 1914 star.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again, Terry,
Further to my last - Ancestry.co.uk has had the 1901 and 1911 Census-es on free this past W/E (Easter) and I looked for your grandfather but didn't find him. So .... it appears that he arrived in the UK between April 1911 and August 1914.
Cheers,
Westoe
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I've noticed that there is a public Kidd family tree on Ancestry.co.uk posted by an 'lgilbert' (?possibly a relation to Ethel Laura "Lola" Gilbert, wife of orchardist James Hutton Kidd?) which appears to have cribbed information from this thread, tho' without attribution. Have you seen it? There's possibly another distant cousin for you. Wouldn't it be interesting if L. Gilbert were to come forward and make himself/herself known to us?
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Oh my: I will try this again. I simply do not know how to post images correctly. The credit is ancestry's UK and Ireland Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850 - 1927. From: Master's Certificates. Greenwich, London, UK: National Maritime Museum
PLEASE forgive me if I don't do this correctly
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Oh my: I will try this again. I simply do not know how to post images correctly. The credit is ancestry's UK and Ireland Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850 - 1927. From: Master's Certificates. Greenwich, London, UK: National Maritime Museum
Please forgive me if I have done this incorrectly
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Hello CherieLynn,
Erm .... I don't think that this is the right Henry Lee.
What you have posted is Image #131 of 656. Did you use the scroll arrows to look at images #132 and #133 that go with that certificate? You should see some anomalies there. And look at the date - issued 1851. Our Henry had personally given up the 'perils of the sea' by that date in favour of being a shipowner. He had ended his sailing career being a master for his father-in-law EDT, and none of the vessels named in the 'Record of Service' were owned by EDT.
I wrote Terry three months ago that I proposed to send a PM to both of you with new information about Hubert which your Thompson cousins had found, but I have not heard back from him. Indeed he has not been signed in since 8 April. Do you know why?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi Westoe: Thank you for checking so closely, I guess I was just too excited. But I do think the Charles Havelock Lee must be correct. I will look for the additional pages. I think Terry is just busy, last I heard last year. I have had a tough year, mother, Shirley Ann Nee Kidd passed in April, you will see her on findagrave, (married name Henson). I still beg for a high rez copy of Carrie's photo - please?
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Hello CherieLynn,
Charles Havelock Lee had *two* Master's Certificate numbers. He had to apply for a replacement because his original was "eaten at sea by rats" and the replacement had a new number.
Original was #97,114 issued 8 September 1879.
Replacement was #036,336 issued 14 August, 1901. He must have received it just before he died.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Milicent Kidd returned to New Zealand. She died in Napier (having previously lived in Palmerston) on 16 January 1961 and is believed to have been cremated. (That was her expressed wish.)
Cheers,
Westoe
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According to their monumental inscription in Westoe Cemetery, Ann (Thompson) LEE died 26 March 1878.
I'm not yet convinced that she is actually buried there (as opposed to being commemorated there) because I have not yet found her death registration or her burial entry. Can anyone help?
BINGO!! No, she is not buried there. Yes!, after visiting her brother in Canada in 1877, she *did* go on to Indiana to visit Carrie.
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I have made yet another request to find the burial of Annie Thompson Lee. Through DNA testing we have found a match to a Kidd family who lived near Newry which was where John Kidd's wife Mary Jane Hutton was from. I wish that any of our Lee and or Thompson cousins would also test and then we could triangulate and maybe learn more on the early ancestry.
Happy New Year to all, Cherie Lynn
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See on findagrave that I have update Annie Thompson Lee's page. She died March 22
Archives wrote: "...We found the following entry in "Indianapolis Marion County, Indiana Mortality
Record, 1 September 1872- 31 December 1881" by Jane E. Darlington (Genealogy
Division, 977.202 I388da): Name: Anna Lee; Age: 58; Nativity: England; Sex:
F ; Color: W; Marriage Status: Widow; Cause of death: Uterine Cancer; Date:
22 March 1878; Duration of Illness: 2 months; Address: 781 N Illinois;
Physician: Featherstone; Undertaker: Weaver; Cemetery: Crown Hill..."
"...The Indianapolis News Friday Evening March 22, 1878, there is a death entry on
the front page for Anna Lee, also shown as Mrs. Henry Lee, Mother of Mrs. John
Kidd, from South Shields England. No cemetery is listed, but a Rev. A.
Bradley was the officiating minister..."
I will order the originals.
For John Kidd and Mary Jane Hutton Kidd, I have found the death notice for who I believe is the stepmother (could possibly be mother but see below likely not) Susan maiden name unknown, wife of James Hutton Pawnbroker of Newry, 1850. Earlier in 1824 the same year that Mary Jane Hutton Kidd was born, Jane Bradford Hutton, wife of James Hutton pawnbroker of Newry died and was buried at the Presbyterian Graveyard, Newry.
More coming records ordered.
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Hello CherieLynn,
Splendid work. After learning from the gravestone that she was interred in Indianapolis, your cousins considered sending for a search-and-copy of the death certificate, but were put off by Marion County's insistence that you send them your personal ID (actual ID documents!, not just your name and address). Somewhat bizarre and paranoid for a copy of a 145 year old document that is public domain.
There is such a story between the lines heres when you put yourself in Ann Lee's shoes. Her husband was gone, her elder son gone, her parents gone, her only surviving sibling and two of her daughters far, far away and she had terminal cancer. Of course she wanted to see her daughters again before she died. We had always suspected that the visit to Joseph in Toronto was *not* her prime reason for crossing the Atlantic at her stage of life. Very likely she had hopes that the disease would progress more slowly, hopes of moving on from Carrie's when spring came, travelling overland by train to San Francisco, to take ship for New Zealand and see Harriet again. That winter must have been very painful for her.
I'll see what I can do about the requests in your PM.
Cheers,
Westoe
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P.S. Cherielynn,
There are actually inscriptions on other faces of the plinth that Mr. Hartman's photographs don't show you and aren't mentioned on his website:
a) also buried in that plot are Ann (Thompson) Lee's youngest sibling, Evan (the medical student who died of tuberculosis), and her elder son, Henry Lee jr. (Harry), who fell from scaffolding in the shipyard
b) also commemorated on that stone is Ann (Thompson) Lee's sister Mary Ann (Thompson) Henzell with the notation "interred Liverpool".
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Hello Terry,
Are you still with us, Terry? I'm a bit worried; you haven't been signed in here since last July. I hope that just means that you are busy and not unwell, but then ... you haven't replied to my PM's either.
So ... what I am going to do is email you both directly with a packet of attachments from your Thompson cousins. The attachments are legitimate and I think you will find them very interesting.
While the good times lasted, your ancestresses, Caroline and Harriet, lived high, with money to burn. They went to posh boarding schools in London so that they would have "cultured" rather than "Geordie" accents, and when they came home on vacations, they slept in French bedsteads. (Smile) Any idea what those were? Here's an image:
(http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/features/hunting/Images/hunting4-7-11.jpg)
Very feminine, wouldn't you say, or perhaps today's expression would be "very girlie-girl".
They did also take a share in "good works" and you'll find them assisting their mother and maternal grandmother at a charity bazaar.
Cheers,
Westoe
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How wonderful! Love the bed. What few snippets of info that came down through the family was that they, the English family, were quite refined. I have found the graves of two of Carrie's children but my great grandfather still eludes me. I search every two months for new places with death records. There was a man who died in Oklahoma in 1929 and another in San Francisco in 1935 that I have found and I will have to get those records and see if him. But with Ernest changing his name, and Sherman changing his name, then I have to wonder if Harry did too.
Thank you again Westoe!
Cherie Lynn (yes, I hope Terry will find us again)
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Westoe: Thank you. I keep staring at them all, the pics of people. Comparing with those from "Black Wolf". Looking at EDT and Joseph Logan and then the girls, I almost wonder how much of the face of Annie and her mother that we see.
I emailed to Terry, I will update if/when I hear.
I expect the post from the Indiana Archives any day now. But with this snow storm, I won't go check the box today.
Thank you again, Cherie
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Not sure where I am on the site but I will try to share this info for family. If I do not do something correctly it is because of a lake of knowledge and I will certainly correct anything that is needed.
The records are in the Genealogy Division of the Indiana State Library and are all public records.
The death record comes from "Indianapolis, Marion County, Indiana Mortality Record 1 September 1872 - 31 December 1881" Compiled by Jane Eaglesfield Darlington. Page 287
ATTACHED
The Obit is from The Indianapolis News Friday 22 March 1878 Page 1.
Lee - This (Friday) morning at the residence of her daughter, Mrs. John Kidd, 781 North Illinois street, Mrs. Henry Lee, of South Shields, England, aged 58 years. Services at the home at 10 o'clock Saturday morning. Officiating minister, Rev. E A Bradley. (The Revd Bradley was the rector of Christ Church of Indianapolis for many years.
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Hello Cherielynn,
Lovely to see these. Yes, they did get cut off. The maximum allowable attachment size here is 500 KB. While both of those images are smaller than that, together they add up to more. It may be that they have to be posted one at a time in separate posts. Do you want to try that?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Wonderful! I knew I could get guidance.
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Another and better copy with notes for the record
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I think they still have not worked - I will go put them on findagrave now.
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I need to look through all the posts on this subject but thought I would mention that I am a descendant and relative of the HAVELOCKS which includes the shipbuilder/owner William Havelock 1756-1836, father of Major General sir Henry Havelock. I don't recognize the marriage of your ancestors, of the top of may head, but there are lots of Havelocks whose names I don't remember.
My direct Havelock ancestor is another Ann Havelock 1801-1873, who married Henry Woolgar - they are my 3 x Great Grandparents.
I need to find out far more than I do, about the family as my knowledge is very limited when I get further back in time. I've had help to find out a lot about Ann's father, Thomas Havelock, as well as quite a lot about the much more illustrious side of the family - Maj Gen Sir Henry etc., that is. I also know that one of the ancestors, a George Havelock (I think) was a clockmaker and I have a photo of one of the clocks he made.
That's more then enough waffle from me. Hope it's of interest to someone out there.
Henry
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Now how is this for "one upmanship" Henry? I have a Havelock Longcase Clock!
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Hello Helen
I am also a descendant of Anne Havelock, daughter of Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton and Thomas Havelock.
Sophia Louisa's origins are very difficult to trace.
There are two claims from the same publisher, Nichols and Sons, one year apart (essentially identical claims) the first 1881 and the second in 1882 that Sophia Louisa's father Thomas Martin was the secretary to the Marquis of Granby. The first claim was published in 1881 in "The Baronetage and Knightage" by Joseph Foster and the second "The Peerage of the British Empire for 1882: With the Orders of Knighthood".
I contacted the staff of His Grace David Manners, present Duke of Rutland, to verify the claim(s).
The Archivist, His Grace, plus an historian currently working with His Grace all of whom "have both extensive and intensive knowledge of the correspondence of the Great Marquis of Granby, and of his son Charles when he was Marquis have not come across a Thomas Martin in any official capacity".
If you have a birth or baptism record for Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton, I would really appreciate knowing the location and date of her birth and confirmation of the names of both her parents. I am about to consult an expert in genealogy and information that you could provide would be most helpful.
Once I have new information about Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton and her father I will share it with you.
Kindest regards.
BBB
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Hello Rhododendron
Owning a George Havelock long case clock is a prize indeed.
Would you be willing to post a photograph of it online please?
Adding to a very small collection of photographs of such clocks still in existence would be very interesting for his descendants.
I have only one small black and white photo of a clock face with one single hand (usual) that I found online.
Kindest regards,
BBB
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Any info for this thread about ship owners and their ships? The Havelock threads will be sorely missing all this info. But this may all be in the published Havelock family stories and genealogies
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Now how is this for "one upmanship" Henry? I have a Havelock Longcase Clock!
You lucky, lucky, lucky - thing ;) The clock will have been made by another ancestor, George Havelock, I think - brief pause while I check - Yes, it was George. I am very envious. Any chance of a photo?
Helen
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Hello Helen
I am also a descendant of Anne Havelock, daughter of Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton and Thomas Havelock.
Sophia Louisa's origins are very difficult to trace.
There are two claims from the same publisher, Nichols and Sons, one year apart (essentially identical claims) the first 1881 and the second in 1882 that Sophia Louisa's father Thomas Martin was the secretary to the Marquis of Granby. The first claim was published in 1881 in "The Baronetage and Knightage" by Joseph Foster and the second "The Peerage of the British Empire for 1882: With the Orders of Knighthood".
I contacted the staff of His Grace David Manners, present Duke of Rutland, to verify the claim(s).
The Archivist, His Grace, plus an historian currently working with His Grace all of whom "have both extensive and intensive knowledge of the correspondence of the Great Marquis of Granby, and of his son Charles when he was Marquis have not come across a Thomas Martin in any official capacity".
If you have a birth or baptism record for Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton, I would really appreciate knowing the location and date of her birth and confirmation of the names of both her parents. I am about to consult an expert in genealogy and information that you could provide would be most helpful.
Once I have new information about Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton and her father I will share it with you.
Kindest regards.
BBB
I know exactly what you mean regarding trying to find Sophia's origins and antecedents and I am very sorry to disappoint you but I only have the records of marriage, death and a reference to husband Thomas applying for financial help in her regard.
it seems there are only tiny, tantalising hints and nothing concrete so far. Someone told me that she may have been illegitimate but whether that was any more than speculation I could not ascertain as I never heard any more from said person, whose details I cannot now recall.
I did employ a researcher, years ago, to try and find the births and baptisms of Ann and her sister, without result at the time. It was through help from a couple of other researchers and Marion Woolgar, who does immense and invaluable research into the Woolgar families, mainly from Sussex; that the birth, baptism and other records were discovered.
I wish you luck and also wish I could contribute to the research costs but it's not possible at present.
Just thought I should mention that I funded research into finding the will of Thomas Havelock's father but without success.
If I ever find anything more I will happily Share it with you.
Good luck and thank you for the comment
Regards and more
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I was going to try to reply with a few thoughts tonight but will have to be tomorrow. I found an 1872 newspaper article about property rather former property. Lots of fun I will share. But in the process I read saw and read the rootsweb 1999 post by a Jay Thompson. to follow
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How do i refer to a post - who is Jay Thompson?
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DUR-NBL/1999-11/0942977217
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Does any one know this 1999 Jay Thompson?
From: "wallycat" <wallycat@albedo.net>
Subject: Enoch and Tamar as Christian Names
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:06:57 -0500
If you try 'Enoch DONKERLY' on the IGI, you'll get 41 of them and 29 are 1600's and 1700's.
Most are Lancashire, one Durham, one Northumberland, a few London.
Try 'Enoch THOMPSON' on the IGI and you'll get a mixed lot in those centuries for Lancashire,
Stafford, Warwick, Lincoln, Durham.
Are these counties far enough north for you?
One of those Enoch DONKERLY's (don't yet know which) may be my GGGGgrandfather.
The IGI has him as Enoch DANKALY at his
marriage to Eden CAMPBELL
on 3 January 1759
at South Shields St. Hilda.
Their daughter Ann (DARKERLY {bemused grin and sigh}according to the IGI)
married Evan THOMPSON
on 3 November 1794
at South Shields St. Hilda.
Ann's and Evan's son Enoch Donkerly THOMPSON was christened
6 June 1796 at
South Shields St. Hilda.
The name Enoch then skips a generation and appears for the last time in this family as the name
of EDT's eldest grandson John Enoch THOMPSON (whom I cannot find in the IGI even though
I know that JET and all his siblings including Ernest Evan THOMPSON aka Ernest Thompson
SETON lived in South Shields until they emigrated to Canada in 1866).
The name Tamar does not, to my current knowlege anyway, appear in this family.
Regards,
Jay Thompson
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Julian and Westoe and all other relation contacts and relations: I had a malignant nodule removed, successfully, July 23. I will share the details but this has spurred more sharing of genealogy and getting documents and histories sent to where they will survive for anyone who wishes to enjoy my collection even with its failures. Mother, through the Kidd Lee Thompson Logan etc, passed last year and she loved hearing about all these folks. for mother.
I have been in touch with the curator of the archives at the Academy for the Love of learning who have their Ernest Thompson Seton connection. He shared a transcription of a very interesting piece they have on file. (He noted everything was sent to Library and Archives Canada in Ottawa. They only have few copies of info left there in NM)
"...There is another photocopy of a typed page in our archives with information taken from "old Bible in possession of C. H. Lee, with another name following on the next line: Cardiff.
The document includes these dates:
Enoch D. Thompson & Mary Logan married at Shields, March 10, 1819.
Ann, daughter of the above born April 23, 1820
Joseph Logan born September 6, 1821
Mary Anne born July 30, 1824
Jane born October 21, 1826
Jane born June 28, 1829
Evan born January 21, 1838
Mary Anne died January 1864
Jane died June 5, 1827
Evan died October 1864
1837 Joseph Logan, Grandfather of the above children died January 18, aged 75
1840 Ann Logan, Grandmother of the above children died August 15, aged 77..."
So now I am chomping at the bit.
I am the type of person who would freely share everything that is in my possession to share - freely.
Where is that bible and how about a digital photo, high resolution.
Also I have participated in DNA for genealogy testing with three companies, two which can compare and match to define family groups. I also tested mother on her death bed. One clear match came through of these lines of family. A man who currently lives in Northern Ireland near the locations of our early Kidd and Hutton families has Kidd in his surnames of ancestors. We were able to identify which Kidd family, Carrie's husband descends from.
Now if we found also a male line Thompson maybe we could learn exactly who Evan Thompson is?
Or a Lee or Havelock or another Kidd - but wait we actually have some of all of those don't we.
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Thank you, Cherie Lynn. We didn't have actual birthdates for some of these, just baptismal dates from the online BT's. I will make some additions to your post in this other colour.
"...There is another photocopy of a typed page in our archives with information taken from "old Bible in possession of C. H. Lee, with another name following on the next line: Cardiff.
Did your source send you an actual image of the page? The fact that it is typed means that it is *not* contemporary to the events described i.e. compiled at some later date, so we must be aware of the possibility of memory errors in these dates. And tho' the Bible was "in possession of" CHL, it was not necessarily his or his parents'. Otherwise we would expect it to also contain the dates of Henry Lee's birth, date of Ann Thompson/Henry Lee marriage, and dates of birth for CHL and his siblings, plus some dates for their marriages and progeny. So it should be accepted only tentatively.
However, there *is* the possibility that this typed list was compiled by CHL's first cousin William, an energetic chronicler, and given to CHL during one of WST's visits to England from Canada. It makes sense that someone of his generation would have that information through first person contact with some of the named parties. On the other hand, much of WST's chronicling was done late in life and some memory errors do occur in his other writings. Also, it is then surprising that other copies of that list have not surfaced over here. So again, I say, this document should be accepted only tentatively.
A third possibility, since you got the information from New Mexico, is that WST took the information from the Bible (which may or may not still exist) during a visit to his cousin CHL, typed it up and sent it to his brother Ernest, who at one time was trying to establish if he had a familial relationship to Saint Ann Seton and Monsignior Seton of New Jersey.
The document includes these dates:
Enoch D. Thompson & Mary Ann Logan married at Shields, March 10, 1819.
Ann, daughter of the above born April 23, 1820, bap'd 19 May, 1820, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Joseph Logan born September 6, 1821, bap'd 5 Oct. 1821, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Mary Anne born July 30, 1824, bap'd 25 Aug, 1824 So. Sh. St. Hilda
Jane born October 21, 1826, bap'd 22 Nov 1826, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Jane born June 28, 1829, bap'd 29 July, 1829, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Evan born January 21, 1838, at 8 a.m.
Mary Anne died January 1864, bur'd 10 Jan 1864, St. James, Liverpool
Jane died June 5, 1827, bur'd 11 June, 1827, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Evan died October 1864, bur'd 8 Oct. 1864, So. Sh. St. Hilda
1837 Joseph Logan, Grandfather of the above children died January 18, aged 75, bur'd 21 Jan 1837
1840 Ann Logan, Grandmother of the above children died August 15, aged 77...", bur'd 19 Aug 1840
both buried Tynemouth General Cemetery
Cheers,
Westoe
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Have you had a look through here :-
http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/Shipbuilders.html
Regards
Malky
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Thank you, Malky. Very few of this extended family's vessels were actually built on the Tyne. It does get confusing because there was a prominent shipbuilder named Joseph L. Thompson, who is not the same person as the Joseph Logan Thompson named in this thread.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Westoe: The christening dates added to these folks names and birth dates is wonderful. A little bird has told me we might have more great things to come from this family history tidbit.
I have my fingers crossed this will work
http://www.shieldsgazette.com/cookson-country/river-view-a-lovely-reminder-of-past-1-4222638
this goes to a page from the Shields Gazette, trying to solve a puzzle of pub locations. It has, "...Other sources, it has since transpired – actually ships for sale advertisements of the era – have revealed, I’m told, that the Admiral Rodney was located on Long Row in Shields.
This was in 1785-1786, and the innkeeper was called Enoch Donkerley.
This was a period when the old town of Shields was still, essentially, one street running along the river..."
Being that the estate, in South Shields, of Enoch Donkerley, settled in 1796?, indicated Enoch, the father of Ann Donkerley Thompson, was holding a lot of property, I wonder is this our Enoch Donkerley, grandfather of our Shipowner, who had this pub? The article refers to the Admiral Rodney Pub and the Adam and Eve Pub.
Hope the link works and I hope I have posted appropriately.
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Erm .... you've had that information for a long time - it is straight out of "History of Shipbuilding in South Shields" by Amy C. Flagg. On my recommendation, you bought a copy of that book a couple of years ago. The writer of the "Cookson Country" column just lifted an idea for a column from someone trying to geographically place that particular "Admiral Rodney" inn.
Cheers,
Westoe
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You are right. Cousin Meg and I have discussed about "early onset", besides a 4 inch long scar across the back of my head. I was on the phone with cousin Meg and telling her about that book and that I had to find it and get it open again. Maybe I can retain its information jewels 2nd time around. Meg and I want to go to the pub and have a seat and ask, "set them up, please".
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
It was May 2011 that you got your copy of the book. After you've reread it, will you please also reread post #116 on page 13 of this thread and post #121 on page 14. We were disappointed not to get any response to those.
BTW: Did you ever buy yourself a copy of those probate papers for the estate of Enoch Donkerley? They are chock full of information altho' there is one error that doesn't immediately jump out unless you also have the will in front of you and are comparing closely.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Correction of Misinformation Previously Posted by Us
In posts #42 (page 5) and # 45 (page 6) of this thread, I posted that Joseph Logan Thompson went bankrupt and that the firm of Thompson & Lee went bankrupt.
Those are bits of oral history which are now known to be incorrect.
Joseph Logan Thompson was never bankrupt.
The astronomical legal costs of the NEW ZEALAND lawsuit did present a burden and required the liquidation of some assets. All of his bills were paid in full.
The partnership of Thompson and Lee was dissolved and the business was carried on by JLT and at least two of his sons.
Apologies to all for the error.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Also I have participated in DNA for genealogy testing with three companies, two which can compare and match to define family groups. I also tested mother on her death bed. One clear match came through of these lines of family. A man who currently lives in Northern Ireland near the locations of our early Kidd and Hutton families has Kidd in his surnames of ancestors. We were able to identify which Kidd family, Carrie's husband descends from.
Now if we found also a male line Thompson maybe we could learn exactly who Evan Thompson is?
Or a Lee or Havelock or another Kidd - but wait we actually have some of all of those don't we.
Hello Cherie Lynn,
You mention DNA testing/matching frequently here. You and ourselves appear to be the only connexions to this family still active on this thread. I have to tell you that we are quite opposed to it, preferring 'scholarly' research, sifting masses of material for one small clue at a time, absorbing historical detail, getting that satisfying 'frisson' when a new fact turns out to be a 'fit'. It's a hobby that can last a whole lifetime without palling.
To jump instantly via expensive technology from 2014 back to Evan Thompson's birth c. 1760 seems a bit like cheating - akin to saying one has read a certain book, when all one did was read the first and last chapters, leaving out all the 'boring' background and character development.
But more importantly, having DNA testing is surrendering a very intimate part of yourself to "Who knows What other uses!". You have no control over how else these commercial organizations that are doing the analysis/matching services will use your genetic material. And it is a safe bet that they are also giving all the results to the 'psi-curity agencies'. Now there's a frisson that is not thrilling, but chilling - distinctly Orwellian.
So please, will you stop promoting it quite so often, at least on this thread.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hey: I was very interested to read the post about the business and I hope i will get to looking at all the bits and enjoying that information how wonderful you share this thank you!
For the DNA certainly I will drop it but I will like to be able to say my thoughts before I hush. I am sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable. I actually trust the company I use to do what they say, of keeping private and the only markers tested are genealogy and few of them at that.
It is certainly not expensive (male y-dna about 150, autosomal 99) relatively speaking if it answered a long standing family question.
But yes there is good reason for some people to fear the fun. My step mother was thrilled to verify her father, which was done because of her matching a 2nd cousin of the man we believed was her biological dad. In 1857 a man in Lee County, Virginia was visiting the daughter of the farm next door and 150 years later we know.
So yes, enough said about DNA for genealogy, certainly scholarly and scientific diggin for genealogy test and believe me waiting for results is like waiting to find out if it is a boy or a girl - waiting for test results - I have waited for many for my many family branches and also my husband's and with others. Helped a young lady to find her mother's 9born 1927) mother's family who was born out of wedlock and that we proved and they will meet - this lady from New Jersey who identified her biological maternal family and learned of them in her 80s.
Yes, enough said. I am sure that someday I will learn all these things. I am glad to hear you are in such good health that you anticipate many moons of time for research, I on the other hand began to feel a bit pressed after my bout or brush with facing mortality and i do not call DNA cheating and I do not cheat. And moreover you do not know what you are missing... so maybe it is a bit Orwellian, like kissing the Blarney Stone or opening Pandora's Box.
I found the book. All my markers had fallen out in the wayside. i will try to search it again. i am very sorry I didn't dog ear the whole thing.
Still alive and kicking, Cherie Lynn
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Good that you found the book.
The Metcalfe and Lee information is on page 78, but ACF has given incorrect dates. The partnership ran from at least May 1863, (when they launched the 294 ton brig JOHN CLARKE), to 1 November 1864, (four days after the death of Henry Lee jr. (Harry)). The end date is given in the legal dissolution notice in the London Gazette.
Speaking of Harry, he and one of his mates got a bit rowdy one night in 1863 - ended up being fined damages and court costs for smashing street lights.
Here are a couple of interesting bits about the street lights in Shields.
a) Shields is so far north that it doesn't get completely dark there overnight in the summers, so every year the street lights were taken down and packed away for the summer months, then reinstalled in the fall.
b) all of the street lights that could be visible from the sea or the river had shielding on the side facing the water so that they would not mislead mariners.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Hello Terry,
Tomorrow or perhaps even later today, I will be sending to you both, direct emails, with attachments. The attachments are legitimate.
The typewritten list of Thompson birthdates, which Cherie Lynn got from New Mexico ( post #203, page 23 of this thread), is genuine. One of the attachments is an image of the original Bible page. The other is of something similar.
Please - acknowledge receipt of the email publicly here on the thread, so that the owner of those documents will be able to see that I have kept my word about sharing.
If there are other related persons on this thread of whom we are not yet aware, please PM me describing your relationship to EDT and I will do the same by you.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Wonderful! I heard from our cousin. I am horribly behind. I assume you know Westoe? Eden Nee Unnamed? My surgeries, will keep me from anything much, I have another bothersome procedure today, but will be excited for everything. I also did read Metcalf and Lee Page, but aren't a few pages of any book allowed to post? I certainly can't stand to share everything freely that I have with family. Did Mr. Lee get photos of his grans? I hope so. I do wish I could share all those with the American cousins but...
More soonest, i have a lot to try to share and tonnes to ask and more to be thankful for.
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Findagrave and I wonder if I got the Cemetery right for Joseph and Ann Logan, figuring out findagrave's site can be tricky, there might be another cemetery and I am not seeing it please tell me if they are wrong. Here is the Family from Donkerley (what about that spelling of Donkerly, I thinkan accident?)
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=136853787
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Findagrave and I wonder if I got the Cemetery right for Joseph and Ann Logan,
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=136853787
No, the photos you have there are of Preston Cemetery. Tynemouth General Cemetery was in Rosella Place. You have called it just Tynemouth Cemetery.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Is this choice at the bottom the correct one?
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=csr&CScn=tyne&CScntry=5&CSst=0
Outside of the USA one cannot search by any filters but the country. They do not have a keyword either.
I moved them back to unknown for time being. If you will send me name again or more name I will google to see what findagrave might be calling it.
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No, ... but that is just the list of cemeteries so far added to Find-A-Grave. Obviously this is a first for Tynemouth General Cemetery. Can you not just enter it (sorry - new keyboard gone wonky - cannot type a question mark).
Images have been sent to your email.
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About the Tynmouth General Cemetery. Is it like around the corner or somewhere adjacent to the Tynemouth (Preston) Cemetery? If so then they have combined the two.
If not I will have the pleasure, if you do not, to add a new cemetery.
Inbetween, I got the email from you just now, while writing this.
Mr Lee emailed me this weekend with same. I turned off my computer and had not hit save trying to transcribe all of it. I cannot try again for a day or two.
This was my first to see the Name for EDT maternal grandmother Eden. I have also been back through all the posts and found most if not all of the Ship Building South Shields vbook references to look up.
I see Enoch Donkerley death date a year later than the estate record with Tyne and Wear Archives.
Dare I ask about Eden?
The death date for Evan Thompson is also still sinking in. EDT was just a little lad.
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Wonderful! I heard from our cousin. I am horribly behind. I assume you know Westoe? Eden Nee Unnamed? My surgeries, will keep me from anything much, I have another bothersome procedure today, but will be excited for everything. I also did read Metcalf and Lee Page, but aren't a few pages of any book allowed to post? I certainly can't stand to share everything freely that I have with family. Did Mr. Lee get photos of his grans? I hope so. I do wish I could share all those with the American cousins but...
Ah, .... so you already had the images. Nevertheless, I emailed them again because I had told the owner that I would.
You already have the answer to your second question and you have quoted it here recently. Just a few moments ago, you wrote:
This was my first to see the Name for EDT maternal grandmother Eden
Not so. Please look at your own post of 21 August this year (#202 0n page 23).
All of the names in those Bible page images were easily found using basic internet (no subscription services) years ago. Only some of the birthdates are new information.
There is no reason that you cannot copy privately those photographs which we have sent you, to share with your own family. Your cousins simply requested that you not publish them on the internet.
We wish you well, lass, but constantly having to re-invent the wheel is becoming a distraction and a strain. You've done very well out of this thread already and we wish you further success.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Nothing was ever meant as a complaint. More to apologize for not answering promptly, making typos, and knowing, since health became an issue, I am not the person I was once for memory and ability. I am trying to add the cemetery and locating an address or at least a near street, you will likely be able to see it by tomorrow if not sooner. If I don't forget what I was doing
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http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&CRid=2556121
Take Care and thank you for everything
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Newcastle Courant - Saturday 31 August 1793 Image © THE BRITISH LIBRARY BOARD. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Column 3 down about middle of the page (just above "Ships Arrived at Shields")
"Thursday (OK you tell me I know the f should be s but???) fe'nnight, the Maria, belonging Mr Donkerley of South Shields, was lost in going up the Swin, coal laden, -- Crew faved (Saved).
So is this Enoch Donkerley? It is 7 days before Enoch son's James Donkerley dies. Is this known as family?
Also in my notes brother of Henry Lee - I THINK the brother of Henry Lee (possibly Henry Havelock Lee:-), James Lee, Junior married Alice Reed daughter of John Reed shipowner of South Shields on Feb 15 1837 at St Hilda's - 18 Feb Newcastle Journal. I don't see anything else. Since ancestry dot com killed the old search I have found very little since.
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"Thursday (OK you tell me I know the f should be s but???) fe'nnight, the Maria, belonging Mr Donkerley of South Shields, was lost in going up the Swin, coal laden, -- Crew faved (Saved).
Se'nnight is a contraction of sevennight, an archaic word for week.
The similar term fortnight meaning two weeks is still in common usage in the UK.
So that means the vessel was lost "a week ago Thursday". Since the newspaper is dated Sat., 31 August, the loss would have been on Thurs., 22 August, 1793.
MARIA was a very common name for a vessel. Official Numbers, unique identifiers for vessels, had not yet been introduced. Tonnage, which would help sort out the MARIA-s, is not given. Port of Registration is not given (doesn't matter where the owner(s) lived - the identification of a vessel is done through her Port of Registry). Then ... through her registration papers, the owner(s) are identified.
So ... even though ED did at various times in the 1790's own shares in one or more MARIA-s, there is insufficient evidence here to draw any conclusion. It could have been a different Donkerley.
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This is all so great! Westoe giving so much to our family history knowledge! Archie our cousin descendant from Charles Havelock Lee sending us new information and making a wonderful addition to names of our family and where and when they passed away so they have memorials.
And now our cousin Meg wishes to join in the chat and catch up!
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=136853787
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Hello, I am Meg. I am the first cousin of Cherie Lynn. and since she is talking about me I had better check in.
Cherie Lynn has been sharing with me what she has learned about our Thompson Donkerley Havelock Lee ancestors from this thread. I have been thrilled to learn of each piece of information that has contributed to their story. I would like to extend my deep gratitude to descendants of Charles Havelock Lee and Westoe and everyone else who have been generous in the sharing of these records over the past number of years. This latest record of our ancestor has been simply wonderful and I thank you!
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I had lots of coffee and tried again. I hope I got the name correct and a decent location description.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GScid=2557580&GRid=90022487&
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The biography of James Hutton Kidd was expanded by the archivist in New Zealand.
"Hutton" as he was called was the grandson of ship owner Henry Lee (once referred to as Henry H Lee?) and great grandson of ship owner EDT Enoch Donkerley Thompson.
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/4k11/kidd-james-hutton
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Some financial bits about the 1796 funeral of EDT's maternal grandfather Enoch Donkerley:
- coffin was made by George Harrison - cost 3 pounds, 10 shillings
- tombstone was cut by Fenwick - cost 4 pounds, 14 shillings
- sexton's fee for opening grave - 8 shillings
- mourning rings for the family were made by jeweller Samuel - cost 11 pounds, 5 shillings
- arrangements entrusted to James Downey, Clothier and Undertaker - his bill amounted to 145 pounds (included mourning clothes for family)
Source: TNA Chancery file C 13/2462
Comparing these amounts, it must have been one splendid funeral.
Cheers,
Westoe
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This is just wonderful information Westoe! I am certainly thrilled to see this. The death notice in the newspaper for Enoch Donkerley saying "eminent Sailmaker for many years" is a fitting description for the wonderful granddad! I will have to find the clipping, but I have no idea how to properly add it and cite it, but it is Column 3, Paragraph 4 DIED:.
Thank you Cherie Lynn
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If I continue to wait until I have made all the corrections before I share information, it might not ever happen.
I made a page on facebook for
Fans and Family of Reginald Sherman Kidd also Reginald Sherman Winton
Hope all the family will like the page.
I hope I am posting the link correctly, if not please let me apologize now.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fans-and-Family-of-Reginald-Sherman-Kidd-also-Reginald-Sherman-Winton/106534273015418
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
I've just had a wee trawl. That's very impressive, lass. You've done a lot of work there to document his life.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Westoe: High praise indeed coming from you.
I have not added any opinions yet, but one keeps wanting to be screamed at the top of my lungs. Why didn't anyone contact family when he became ill? Why weren't the names and contact information of his family given to the court or the hospital? Why did Flora give RSKs birth place incorrectly, when she clearly knew his place of birth?
I was thrilled to see that the Museum of Wisconsin Art, MOWA, added the link for his facebook page to their page for him online. Unfortunately the link appears not to work, but they have helped to unite the two parts of his life to see the whole person and artist by adding the link, so I thank them very much.
Poor dear Reg
BYW the man who took photos of the EDT graves, sent me a message on FAG that the cemetery had been cleaned up and the side of the stone had gold lettering with children's names. He said he was going to email all, but has not. I sponsored EDTs memorial and let the volunteer know that he could add many photos there and that I hadn't gotten an email yet but I have not heard from him again, yet. He did add another but hope for the close ups. So "Westoe" just keeps on giving.
Cherie Lynn
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=thompson&GSmid=46822884&GRid=68164290&
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Do you mean Mr. Hartmann? He still hasn't added all the inscriptions that are on that stone. I hope that he will someday. The gold lettering will certainly make them easier to read.
Temporary avatar is how it looked originally.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Westoe! Wow! I can't remember seeing a notice, but has been a foggy month or so. Wonderful Photo of the monument of our E D and Mary Ann Thompson, ship owner and wife, and all the family. Would you be able to upload this to the findagrave memorial? I see the bottom right of the picture must say "South Shields" but i can't make out the words at the bottom left.
I think Mr Hartman said that the gold lettering was mostly worn off. But I was glad to see the renewed care for the cemetery.
Thank you so much for sharing this wonderful photo of the monument to see. Cherie :)
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Hello all! Westoe I got a notice today from findagrave that the photo volunteer reported a problem with fulfilling my request for photo of grave or wider area. This was the notice. (Can you advise?)
Greetings from Find A Grave,
We are writing to let you know that a Find A Grave volunteer has reported a problem with your photo request for Joseph Logan.
The general problem they reported is:
Cemetery office has no record of this person
They also reported, specifically:
burials were before cemetery opened
Due to this problem, we believe that this photo request can not be fulfilled. As a result, we are removing it. If you can fix the problems that were reported and believe a photo can be acquired, please feel free to make a new request.
This is for Ann, I have not removed her from the cemetery yet. But I moved Joseph so findagrave would not themselves.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=90022389
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Hello Cherielynn,
Hmmm??? That's a puzzlement. Was the photo volunteer in the right cemetery? Because both Joseph and Ann are definitely in the cemetery burials register.
I am away from home at present so cannot look at the actual images today. When I can, I will look and write again.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thank you Westoe! Please check, this person seems to be certain and we will need something to offer. I would not expect stones but at least wider area photos. But please check Ann's memorial when you can and see if the cemetery name and location is correct.
Thank you
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
I had a little time tonight, so even without my books, I've tried to call it up from scratch for you.
There is really nothing to photograph. Tynemouth General Cemetery opened in 1833 on Rosella Place, North Shields/Tynemouth. Rosella Place is now long since gone.
That cemetery closed in 1936 and the gravestones were cleared away. (So much for "Perpetual Care" huh?)
As near as I can make out, the space that was occupied by the cemetery is now a little park at the corner of Albion Road and Brightman Road, North Shields. You can see it and grab your own screen capture off Google Maps streetview.
You can check this for yourself at this site:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=5&lat=56.0000&lon=-4.0000&layers=1&right=BingHyb (http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=5&lat=56.0000&lon=-4.0000&layers=1&right=BingHyb)
where you can look at two maps side-by-side - an old one and a modern one. Zooming in on either of them zooms both of them.
Start on the modern map from the intersection of the River Tyne and the North Sea. Tynemouth Road is shown in pink. Drag the modern map to the right and follow Tynemouth Road westward until it turns into Albion Road. Brightman Road and Cecil Street are visible as side streets which meet at Albion Road. Zoom way in keeping that intersection at the centre of the screen. I *think* that treed lot was it.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thank you. I am going to view this and also send a note to the volunteer. I would hope for photos of the park. :) I will update
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Sorry for joining in here but I wondered Cherie Lynn whether you realised that there were in fact very few gravestones erected in Tynemouth General Cemetery - which as you will no doubt know was a private cemetery for Protestant Dissenters.
The very few gravestones that survived the heavy bombing during the War were removed to another Cemetery.
Apologies if you were already aware of this but I haven't read the numerous previous posts on this topic.
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Hello Rhododendron: Thank you and your comments are very welcome. I have been of the view that we should not just have photos of gravestones but also the graves or the wider grave area. So to me locating a burial and a photo of a park area or a parking lot are both good for me. So we believe that the graves were left but the stones moved, so I would think photos of both places will be great, if I can just get the directions close.
Thank you, Cherie Lynn
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
I've had confirmation from a local researcher. Yes, the little park sits on TGC. So does the school sportsfield behind which you can see in Google streetview when you zoom in on the entrance to the park. So there you are. The directions are pretty explicit; NW corner of intersection of Albion and Brightman Roads, North Shields plus sportsfield behind.
Cheers,
Westoe
P.S. Joseph and Ann are buried about 7 blocks away from their home. I expect that they often strolled in that cemetery, perhaps even picked out the spot they would prefer.
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Westoe: I emailed google once about using screen captures of some of their wonderful things. The reply said as long as their logo is on the page. But I bet their rules have changed mega times since then.
I "found" a very old Lunsford cemetery on google earth once following the directions from findagrave. The screen captures are wonderful of this old stone mound in the yard of a farm house.
I should be ashamed I have not wanted to learn more about them but here begins the Seton story. I have read a few snippets from the online newspapers but geeze, one would have to ... I feel exhausted just thinking about it. But I have wondered about Captain Joseph. Is that Captain as in ships captain?
I am going to try to write out a concise request for photos of the park, when why how where
I am of course quoting you Westoe and should I quote about dissenting?
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The cemetery
how the link works
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Albion+Rd,+North+Shields,+Tyne+and+Wear+NE29,+UK/@55.0094471,-1.45239,17z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x487e6ef73bab2ed9:0x72daadc8a602cf35
I have been here before
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Dissenting?? Hmmm. Certainly there were a lot of Presbyterians buried there, but as far as I know, there was no exclusivity. It was, after all, Tynemouth General Cemetery.
Yes, Joseph was a mariner and shipowner, so captain as in ship's captain.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thank you Westoe: There is another volunteer, the one who added the new photos for EDT and St Hilda's also. I am going to ask him if he could photog Albion and Brightman. Is there an existing address for the Joseph and Ann home? Maybe he would photog something interesting on that street also if he can go.
Thank you,
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No lass, that house is long gone and the area built over.
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ok so Newcastle Courant, Friday 20 January 1837. Column 5 (near top)
- The 18th inst.(ant) in Bedford Street, aged 74, Mr Joseph Logan, ship-owner;
I take it Bedford Street might have been his home
Durham County Advertiser Friday 27 January 1837 Column 4 (middle)
- 18th inst. in Bedford Street, aged 74, much respected, Mr Joseph Logan, shipowner.
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Bedford Street still exists CherieLynn.
And I'm sure there will be some old images of North Shields on the web, including possibly Bedford Street
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Hello Cherie Lynn,
Yes, that is a start lass. Then you could try doing what your cousins did - looking at every mention of that street in all the NE newspapers for years and years and years after his death until something jumps out at you and yells BINGO!! (which it will). It is not difficult, just time-consuming.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Westoe: I took the little google man from the cemetery down Albion to Bedford and went all the way down to the curve and looked back up at the clock tower. I turned and went back down the hill and then turned toward the water and got to Bell Street and paused. Thank you
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And what did you see, lass, I wonder.
Do not think us difficult but that little snippet took them too much slogging to find. If ever they get their book published, you will see it there.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Still looking, gone around through Tynemouth and now back along the Grand Parade. The hotel is quite impressive, but I rather think a cuppa on a water front place.
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Westoe: How wonderful! Thank you!
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The former Merchant Marine, descendant of the multiple ship owners and associated industries, Enoch Donkerley, Enoch Donkerley Thompson, James Lee, Henry (Havelock :D) Lee tired to visit Toronto, my former home. But Instead we met Dai's cousins on the south side of Lake Ontario north of Ransom and west of Wilson, NY. I kept looking across and wondering if I had cousins there myself
(http://)
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No, lass, the only cousins that you have left in Toronto, to our knowledge, are the many who are buried there.
Cheers,
Westoe
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:'(
Thank you.
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Westoe: What a lovely pup and I wonder is you have done the DNA ;D Descendant of ship owners. But not a sea worthy pup herself. (I hope you roll with laughter)
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Eh, lass, you really are dead keen on this DNA business, aren't you. No, they haven't had her DNA done as there is no money left after all her medical bills. She has coped with paraplegia for over 7 years now.
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I am sorry that the pup is unwell, but such a fortunate companion. We lost our Lola to a tumor on her face.
This is Lola and I attached her and all our animals to my precious dog I got in Hong Kong as their mother
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=223680&GRid=165063901&
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Oh no, she is not unwell, never think that. She hates to hear anybody say " awwwww, that poor dog" - much prefers to hear "Bravo, survivor dog! You go girl!" She's a normal, boisterous, rambunctious Lab who just happens to be paraplegic. Life really handed her lemons when she was 3 years old, but they didn't sour her. She runs, she swims, she chases rabbits, plays ball and tug-of-war, goes in parades, visits hospitals, fundraises for charity and in general lives life zestfully.
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That is wonderful. We finally have a yard and although no fence we have gone back a few years ago to getting rescues who are seniors and long time in doggie jail. But each one has had terrible Cancers and went to heaven, but we have had great times for last days and each has been good company for me, at least I wasn't talking to "myself".
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A new Honour Proposed for James Hutton Kidd, apple breeder of New Zealand. See 13-page pdf here:
http://www.swdc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/DCAG21Sept16C3Roadnaming.pdf (http://www.swdc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/DCAG21Sept16C3Roadnaming.pdf)
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He has so many wonderful records! Thank you for sharing this. We have has a most interesting connection via DNA - of course.
The y-DNA Haplogroup is of the patriarch group R1a (wikipedia has lots of accurate info about the early fathers of a male line) but in the last few hundred years we have had match which would links two surnames of at least one branch of the male Kidd family with a line having the name Leeming.
The thing that adds to the genetics is the two surnames being together in one place and having been talked about together as both living in the same place and the names having similar meanings (according to them)
I hope the link works, I have no idea if I know how to put a link or not.
http://www.davidkidd.net/Early_Kidds_of_Craven.html
But they wrote: "...The three Y-DNA relatives have Anglo-Norse surnames: Kidd, Brandon, Leeming, that mean kindling, burning and gleaming. This suggests their common ancestors was known as something to do with fire:
1. fiery occupation; for example farmers of land cleared by fire; swordsmiths; suppliers of fuel kindling and torches
2. fiery characteristics; for example very red hair or being hot-headed.
3. fiery gods, for example invoking Thor.
The Norwegian Vikings settled here about 900 AD..."
Yes, quite a yarn and maybe a stretch, but lots of fun none the less, Cherie
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I hope this link works - a volunteer has added a gravestone photo for Ship Owner and Sail Maker Enoch Donkerley (Donkerly) 1732 - 1796 ?? to his findagrave
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=donk&GSmid=46822884&GRid=136853241
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It was me, Cherie Lynn. Sorry it couldn't have been a better image. Very poor Headstone.
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How wonderful - I think it is just great and your capture of so much of the words in the beautiful photo is amazing. Thank you!
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Thank you Rhododendron. Very nice. Where is the stone located? Against the wall of the Song Room? On the south side or on the east side?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hope this link works and it is picture with the Monk, where I think the lady might look like Carrie, and the lady in the one with Satyr not so much
http://www.proantic.com/en/display.php?mode=obj&id=235995
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Lovely Find, Cherie Lynn! You're collecting quite a catalogue of his work.
I don't quite understand the reference to "Mihran". Did RSK sometimes sign his work that way? Or could this possibly be a collaboration with another student of that name? (I'm not savvy enough about art to tell if these are all by the same hand or not.) Yes, I expect that you are right about him using his mother as a muse.
Very nice. By all means, buy it! 2800 euros plus shipping - a mere bagatelle (grin).
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi: The Mihran is separate but in the end, I own it also, so it is hoping for a good home. It is definitely different hand and I have have been working to see which Mihran's were in Paris 1901. Two for certain that I can see. I learned from an Armenian researcher that this is an (sometimes?usually?) ethnically Armenian name and is a male name and a given name - so maybe he can get home also.
She was willing to take the pictures out of the shelf. I really think the lady in the monk picture looks like Carrie. Three of them are fully signed but on the one with the cowboy and lady you can see it was cut, likely to fit that shelf and the name is cut off - except the dd: (with the colon that we sometimes see on his signature at the end of his name- and the 01 of the date.
I understand the law on copyright is 70 years from his death which will be June 8 2022 - but I am not sure what this means as if selling I believe I can post them to see to sell as this seller did - but I want to respect doing it correctly :)
I wonder if the Satyr means that he was already having feeling about his name then? There is a 1904 passenger record where he uses Winton so I wonder. I am sorry I missed the first one as I believe it looked very much like his self portrait, but the company took that listing off line and the library redid their website and there is nothing there for any of their artists anymore.
:)
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I mentioned this article on page 12 of this thread. I got the date wrong then it was 1925. Those links from before will not work any longer, I don't think. This one should.
This painting still exists and is hanging at the Lake Worth Library in Lake Worth, Palm Beach County Florida.
This article notes what I believe is the first viewing of this mural
<iframe src="https://www.newspapers.com/clippings/embed_clipping/?id=11366393&w=394&h=394" scrolling="no" frameBorder="0" height="394" width="394" style="border: 3px double #efefef;background: #333 url(https://www.newspapers.com/i/loadingAnimation.gif) no-repeat 50% 50%;"></iframe><small style="display: block;">Found on <a href="https://www.newspapers.com/">Newspapers.com</a></small>
This is from the link provided by the newspaper website they have choices to share their articles this is the embed link
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Ship Owners Henry Havelock Lee and John Snowden are named in this free ebook on google books
page 91 Cases Selected from Those Heard and Determined in the Vice ..., Volume 2
edited by George Okill Stuart (page of PDF download 106)
I think I have properly found a link for here
https://books.google.com/books?id=gUkSAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA91&ots=WnLP0bg349&dq=%22henry%20havelock%20lee%22&pg=PA91#v=onepage&q=%22henry%20havelock%20lee%22&f=false
page also attached
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Erm .... that was already reported in reply #41 on page 5 of this thread. It is the only known instance of Henry Lee being recorded as Henry Havelock Lee.
Cheers,
Westoe
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I thought it was not new but I did not remember it - so it was new to me. Genealogy is thrilling all over again. I wonder how long I will be able to think of enough to enjoy knowing any of it.
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Our shipowner Henry Havelock Lee's daughter Mary Caroline Carrie Lee Kidd was living in New York in 1912 and her granddaughter Eloise Kidd visited her from Green Bay, Wisconsin in 1912
Kidd Eloise and Caroline 18 Oct 1912 Eloise visited New York with her grandmother Caroline
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/10143854/kidd_eloise_and_caroline_18_oct_1912/
Hope I have done this correctly - if I have not I will learn again to do it properly - thank you
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Came through fine, Cherie Lynn.
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The newspapers were amazing for the family in Green Bay, notice after notice of one visiting the other, events and activities and clubs and after thinking of them obscure in Green Bay.
This shows that John had Mary Caroline Carrie Lee Kidd living "on the west side", which is the west side of the Fox river n(she would have been boarding in a nice house which happens to be that of her son's future father-in-law Pierre Salvas dit Laviolette.
John was selling Ridpath's and giving lectures on Hamlet -
Green Bay Weekly Gazette, 03 Jun 1896, Wed, Page 5
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/10144390/john_kidd_visits_caroline/
and Caroline went to visit John while off selling
Green Bay Press-Gazette, 10 Aug 1896, Mon, Page 5
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/10144087/
they were in Wisconsin and Michigan's Upper Peninsula certainly through 1906
Green Bay Press-Gazette, 16 Mar 1906, Fri, Main Edition, Page 7
this article ran three times that I saw leading up to and after his talk
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/10070942/kidd_16_mar_1906_john_kidd_and_hamlet_2/
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Went looking and Clara Jane Lee Kendall wife of John Kendall, daughter of Ship Owner of Sunderland and South Shields, Henry H Lee (I bet its Henry Havelock Lee) died 21 March 1935
... of 1 Berkeley-ave Rusholme, Manchester the admin is her daughter Annie Clara Gibbons (wife of Gordon Colingwood Gibbons) [ONE L in colingwood in will book] over 300 pounds Probate April 24
I searched all I could and got nothing else on the couple
Also another descendant of James Hutton Kidd and Harriet Alice Lee Kidd (Harriet daughter of Ship owner Henry and sister of Clara) and from New Zealand turned up - I suggested to read this and hope will add info or share hello them self.
Will: Ancestry.com. England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966, 1973-1995 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.
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Hello Helen
I am also a descendant of Anne Havelock, daughter of Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton and Thomas Havelock.
Sophia Louisa's origins are very difficult to trace.
There are two claims from the same publisher, Nichols and Sons, one year apart (essentially identical claims) the first 1881 and the second in 1882 that Sophia Louisa's father Thomas Martin was the secretary to the Marquis of Granby. The first claim was published in 1881 in "The Baronetage and Knightage" by Joseph Foster and the second "The Peerage of the British Empire for 1882: With the Orders of Knighthood".
I contacted the staff of His Grace David Manners, present Duke of Rutland, to verify the claim(s).
The Archivist, His Grace, plus an historian currently working with His Grace all of whom "have both extensive and intensive knowledge of the correspondence of the Great Marquis of Granby, and of his son Charles when he was Marquis have not come across a Thomas Martin in any official capacity".
If you have a birth or baptism record for Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton, I would really appreciate knowing the location and date of her birth and confirmation of the names of both her parents. I am about to consult an expert in genealogy and information that you could provide would be most helpful.
Once I have new information about Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton and her father I will share it with you.
Kindest regards.
BBB
I know exactly what you mean regarding trying to find Sophia's origins and antecedents and I am very sorry to disappoint you but I only have the records of marriage, death and a reference to husband Thomas applying for financial help in her regard.
it seems there are only tiny, tantalising hints and nothing concrete so far. Someone told me that she may have been illegitimate but whether that was any more than speculation I could not ascertain as I never heard any more from said person, whose details I cannot now recall.
I did employ a researcher, years ago, to try and find the births and baptisms of Ann and her sister, without result at the time. It was through help from a couple of other researchers and Marion Woolgar, who does immense and invaluable research into the Woolgar families, mainly from Sussex; that the birth, baptism and other records were discovered.
I wish you luck and also wish I could contribute to the research costs but it's not possible at present.
Just thought I should mention that I funded research into finding the will of Thomas Havelock's father but without success.
If I ever find anything more I will happily Share it with you.
Good luck and thank you for the comment
Regards and more
I too am descended from Thomas Havelock and Sophia Louisa Egerton?!
Has anyone found any clues about her in the last 8 years lol.