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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Completed Look ups => Topic started by: davedata on Friday 17 November 06 11:57 GMT (UK)
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Could someone please look at the 1861 census for me and see who is living with Ephraim Legate, b 1853? Mother is Martha, but not sure is father, George, is still alive then , or if she has remarried (Huckle possibly?).
Many thanks
Dave
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There you go ...
RG9/997; Folio: 72; Page: 30 - in Henlow ...
'New Town'
John Huckle 40 Head Ag Lab Shifford
Marth Huckle 35 Wife Straw Plaiter North Hill
George Legate 14 son in law
Alfred Legate 10 do
Ellen Legate 13 do
Ephraim Legate 7 son in law Henlow
Frederic Huckle 4 son Henlow
Sarah Huckle 2 dau do
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Ihave this family in my tree, but as my internet connection has failed I'm stuck in an internet cafe, so will check my records when I get home and I,ll get back to you with details. Martha was Martha Norman from Northill, and, speaking from memory, George Legate was dead by 1861, and she had remarried to John Huckle. She later married an Earl (surname, not a pier of the realm!) in Clifton. George Legate was I recall born in Blunham, but from the Henlow Legates
Whilst they are not in my direct line, the Legates feature prominently in my Henlow tree (my birthplace) and I have a lot of detail on them.
Regards
David
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Thanks both of you. My actual interest is in Frederick, born 1857. My ancestor is Frederick Legate b 1857 Henlow, yet we cannot find his birth anywhere. We know from his marriage certificate (1881 to Hannah Hughes) that his father was George, a gardener, and that he was dead by then. Someone previously suggested that this could be the Frederick and that perhaps he changed his name to Legate - apparently there's no Frederick Legate b 1857 in the 1861 or 1871 census but he then appears from 1881 onwards, whereas Frederick Huckle is in 1871 but not afterwards! What we don't know is when George died, as it is possible that Frederick was George's son, but was born after Martha remarried.
Dave
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Hi Dave
It may have been me on another board!
My memory is failing! It wasn't George the father who was born at Blunham - it was George and Martha's son George, who was christened 4 Apr 1847 at Blunham.
The 1861 implies that George died sometime between 1853 and 1857, but I haven't checked the registers recently - not since they've been freely available on www.ancestry.co.uk - for either his death or Martha's remarriage. But the relationships are pretty specific- the Legates are all sons in law (=stepson in modern parlance) - whereas Frederic Huckle aged 4 is son
This may be a case which you may never be able to prove - was Frederick Huckle the same person as Frederick Legate; But the first thing to do is to plough through the GRO indexes, and then check Henlow, or was it Clifton?, parish register microfilm.
Regards
David
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Just had a quick look - there's a George Leggett died in Biggleswade registration district in the Dec quarter 1855
David
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David
Thanks - if you are on Genes Reunited then it was you I previously spoke to re this.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave
Yes, it was.
I've now found the marriage of John Huckle and Martha Leggett in Biggleswade registration district in Dec quarter 1856, but no sign of Frederick's birth being registered (nor is he on the IGI, onto which Henlow parish register has been extracted for this period);
As he was 4 in 1861 and 14 in 1871 his implied birth was between Apr 1856 and March 1857; So depndent on GEorge Leggett's exact date of death and Frederick's exact birth it might be possible that George was his father rather than John Huckle. Pure speculation, but might Martha have told him who his true father was after John's death, hence the possible change of name to Legate?
The census evidence seems to point to Frederick Huckle being the same person as Frederick Legate, but I' m not sure that you'll ever be able to prove it conclusively, unless you get lucky and either John or Martha left a will.
Regards
David
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David
Many thanks for that. I agree that this may be as far as I can get on this branch of my family tree. It certainly doesn't help when they can't even decide on how to spell the name!
Regards
Dave
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Hi, I am interested in finding out more about the henlow leggetts, I was born as a Leggett in stevenage a direct descendant of the Henlow Leggetts. I know that George Leggett born 1797 married Charlotte and their son George borb 1833-1835 would have been my great great grandfather, can you help, regards Mary
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Hi Mary
Welcome to Rootschat!
I have this line going back to c1650 in Henlow. If you wouldn't mind sending me a Personal Message with your email address I'll attach a full report on everything I know about the Henlow Legates. It's too big to post on this board. Just in case you haven't had chance to work out how to send Personal Messages, just click on "Bedfordshire Boy" on the left hand side of this message, then near the bottom of the page click on "Send this RootsChatter a personal message"
I'm also connected to Charlotte Ward via her mother, Ann Daniel, and I'll send a Daniel report as well
I'm slightly concerned as the George who was living in Stevenage from the 1871 census onwards, wife Mary Ann, for the main part gave his age as implying a birth year of 1837/8. Have you got his marriage cert showing his father as George?
David
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Hi David, I don't have a copy of the birth cert, I just have the 1841 cencus info, I have tried looking up his birth but as records don't start until 1837 nothing comes up. My dad and I used to go to Henlow quite a lot when he was alive he loved going to the dogs and we used to go and play darts at the engineers arms, it seems as if he knew thats where he originated from, looking forward to hearing from you, my e mail is (*), thanks Mary
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Hi Mary
I know it was too early for George to have had a birth cert, but what was the detail on his marriage cert, as it will show his father's name? I've been working all morning on these Legates, as there was another George, son of Charles and Eliza born in Henlow in 1834. I've been trying to separate them without any success, but if the George who married in the first quarter 1861 to Mary Ann Young in Royston registration district, which includes Thriplow which she gave as her birthplace in subsequent censuses, has a father George, then that should clinch it. Odd that in every census he should give his age as 23-33-43-53 and his birthplace as either Henlow or Shefford.
I was born in Henlow so used to walk past the Engineers Arms each day on my way to school.
David
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Hi, I have got the marr cert showing his father as George who was a labourer, I also found Charles son was George which confused the issue until I got the marr cert, Mary
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Excellent! Another problem solved. Was the other George's marriage to Mary Hare? I can't find them in any census until 1881 when George was in the Workhouse at Brentford
I'll send reports shortly
David
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hi mary and bedfordshire boy, i hope you dont mind but i too am from george and mary leggett he would be my great great great grandfather, i have information on my family tree from my aunt doris and the local museum in stevenage but dont know much on the henlow leggett's if either of you could help it would be great to know, many thanks carl leggett
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Hi Carl, are you one of Micks sons? I am Roys daughter and Doris is also my auntie, if you email me I will send you a copy of the paperwork that bedfordshire dave sent to me, my email addy is marynunn13athotmail.co.uk, would be interested in any info you have, thanks Mary
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Hi Mary, sorry, i said to mum i did'nt know if it was you or not! im Dennis's son,how are you? Ive had a family tree in place for years now which all started when i went through hundreds of old photos my dad had including grandads royal navy photos , aunt doris helped with what she knew and the rest from photos etc. i always knew we were an old town family but didnt know how to get back to the henlow connection and i didnt know how long we had been in stevenage. I wanted to see if i could go back futher as ive got kids now and thought it would be nice for them as there doesnt seem to be many leggett's around these days!! i see uncle mick and jenny, and went up to Norfolk to see uncle mick about a year ago.
That would be great if you could send me the information you have, il go through what i have and send it over to you
nice to hear from you and thanks
carl
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Hi,
my names Tia Huckle 😊 I'm almost certain your talking about my family as I've heard my nan mention nearly all of the names I see in your posts. I don't know if i could be of any help, but if i can, my email is tia.huckle@gmail.com
Kind regards,
Tia
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Hello,
I'm very late to the party and not sure if any of you are still active?
I'm not sure if I'm talking about the same family or not, but I'm trying to find the birth of a George Leggett.... He was born about 1838/1839 in either Henlow or Shefford (from 1861 - 1891 census'). He married Mary Ann Young in 1861 in Thriplow, Cambs and became a Fishmonger in Stevenage. His marriage certificate gives his fathers name as George Leggett also and at the time of his marriage he was a resident of Hitchin, Herts.
I cannot find a birth/baptism in any of these areas nor any sign of him in the censuses of 1841 and 1851. I thought I had found him, but the fathers name was Charles (which I now know his not him).
My George was the father of Emily Leggett (born 5 October 1866) who was my Great Grandmother.
If we're talking about the same family, I would love to hear from you.
Thanks
Andrea
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Hi Andrea
I'm still on this board, but to call me active would be an exaggeration!
I don't think he was born as late as 1838/9 despite the age given on marriage, 22, and in subsequent censuses - 23, 33, 43, 53 with birthplace either Henlow or Shefford. I think he was George Legate son of George and Charlotte (Ward) Legate baptised in Shillington on 20 Oct 1833. This fits with other facts known about him other than his age. In 1841 this one was still living in Shillington aged 8 as George Legget, and in 1851 he was a servant age 16 in Clifton, but born Henlow.
There are too many inconsistencies to make me 100% sure, and he didn't name one of his many daughters Charlotte, which would have helped. What also concerns me is the gap between marriage in 1861 and the birth of his first child Elizabeth in 1863/4, which makes me wonder if there could have been an earlier child.
I'm afraid that this is the best I could come up with for him, and it's less than perfect.
David
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HI, yes we are the same family, with the fish shop in Middle Row, I'm afraid I have to agree with Bedfordshire "Dave who was very helpful when I was searching.
KINd Regards Mary
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Many thanks both,
I had found that record but had discounted it....
As you say, I'm just not sure. I do agree that ages can be unreliable on census records etc, but he seems so consistent about his age on the later census records, which also align with his marriage certificate age and his death cert age (56 years old in 1894). It's the 1841 census which troubles me the most. age 2 or 3 versus age 8 just feels a bit wrong. But, there just doesn't seem to be anything else likely....
You mentioned that the Shillington baptism fits with other facts known about him (except the age). Could you let me know why else you think that's him or is just that this is the only local baptism with a father named George Leggett (Legate)?
I hope you don't think I'm being rude. I very much appreciate that you've been looking at this for far longer than me and I'm happy with any leads!
Thank you
Andrea
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I'm not a fan of the Meatloaf method of genealogy – two out of three ain't bad. The name's right, the age is right, the place is wrong but don't be sad, cos two out of three ain't bad. In this case it's only one out of three! The name's right, the age is wrong and the place is wrong. The other thing that's right is the father's name from the marriage certificate.
Let's go through all of the considerations:
- Legate is not a common name, so it's not a difficult job to put all the Legates in Henlow and the adjoining villages into family groups
- there are only three George Legate baptisms in Beds in anything like the right time frame – 1833 in Shillington father George (who was from Henlow); 1834 in Henlow, son of Charles; and 1847 in Blunham son of George, who lived in Henlow (All Legate roads lead to Henlow!). The 1847 one can be discounted, as not only is he too young, he's easily traced in censuses as marrying Emma Capon. The 1834 George had Charles as father which conflicts with the marriage, was living in Henlow with father Charles in 1851 aged 16 and was in Brentford Union Workhouse in 1881, although I lose him in censuses between times, so I think he can be discounted too.
- Which just leaves the 1833 Shillington George. The family moved around a bit within a very tight radius – married in Henlow, where they baptised one child, then moved to Shillington, then to Clifton in the 1851 census although one daughter says she was born in Clifton in 1839, then to Shefford in 1861. I'm not surprised that George junior didn't seem to know where he was born!
- Unless of course there was another unbaptised George born around 1838 of whom there's no trace in 1841 and 1851. In which case what happened to Shillington George who disappears off the radar screen after 1851? No census appearance, no burial/death.
- So for me there are three options: (i) he was an unbaptised George b 1838 in either Henlow or Shefford, of whom there's no trace before his marriage in Cambs (but there's no George going spare in the district who could have been his father); (ii) a variation of (i) he was an unbaptised illegitimate George, son of one of the many Legate girls in Henlow, but who doesn't appear in 1841 and 1851 and who invented a father for his marriage certificate (to me this option is getting pretty desperate!); and (iii) he was the George baptised in Shillington in 1833 who disappears after 1851 and he shed 5 years off his real age and lived in Hitchin/Stevenage.
It's down to the balance of probabilities. It's not as though there are spare Georges floating around in censuses, or that there are possible deaths/burials. I prefer option (iii), that for whatever reason he consistently lopped 5 years off his age from his marriage onwards, but I agree that there's no cast iron proof.
If anyone can find any other relevant facts that add to the equation I'm more than happy to reconsider
David
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Many thanks David,
That's really helpful. I appreciate you laying out all the considerstions. I did have a chuckle at your 'there are no 'spare' George's floating around in the censuses....
I tend to agree that it seems the most likely of all the options.
Regards
Andrea
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You're welcome.
I'm never very happy with a "most likely of the possibilities" scenario but I'm afraid that's what it is with this one, unless a piece of evidence turns up unexpectedly.
George was my 3rd cousin 3 times removed, so not exactly a close relation!
David
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No, I don't like the 'most likely' situation either (and I liked your Meatloaf analogy too!), but sometimes I guess you have to make leaps of faith and hope some other break through materialises in the future... On another line of mine, some recently digitised London records unlocked something that I've been banging my head against a wall over for years!
With me George was my Great Great Grandfather so it's a bit more direct for me!
Flippin' Ancestors.....