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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Shropshire Lookup Requests => Shropshire => England => Shropshire Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: Barnford on Monday 20 November 06 12:10 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to verify the family of William Jones and Mary b circa 1832 Diddlebury relying mainly so far on census records.
William was born circa 1828 in Ditton Priors, parents not known, and married Mary, maiden name unknown, who was born Diddlebury circa 1832. His occupation was tailor. They had two children born in Velindre Radnorshire - Alfred John b1854 or 1855, also a tailor (I can not find his birth registration - there are two possibilities; one in Wolverhampton and one in Kidderminster) and Mary b1855 or 1856. Two children, William and Helen, were born in Bettws in 1859 and 1863. A daughter, Alice, was born in Clun in 1865. Two children, Herbert and Annie, were born in Bromyard, Herefordshire in 1869 and 1871. There is also an Edith b1869 who begins as a boarder then becomes a granddaughter and finally a daughter.
I have a sight of a William Jones in the 1841 census working as a servant in Ditton Priors but can not locate him in the 1851 and 1861. In 1871, the family is registered in Winslow Herefordshire, in 1881 Glanford Brigg Lincolnshire and in 1891 and 1901 Nottinghamshire. I believe William died in Nottingham in 1887.
Alfred John Jones is my great grandfather and I have found his father's name, William, on his marriage certificate.
Any help on tracing William's ancestry, his marriage and the 1851 and 1861 census entries would be greatly appreciated.
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My goodness. They certainly moved around a bit!
I think I have them in 1861 in Cefn Calanog, Radnorshire.
Black Mountain
William Jones Head 33 Tailor Salop, Ditton Friars
Mary " Wife 29 " Didbury
Mary " Daur 7 Radnorshire, Blauddy (I think)
Alpherd (sic) J. Jones Son 6 " "
William Jones Son 2 " "
Edward Davies Apprentice 15
RG9 Piece 4234 Folio 29 Page 7
I'll look in 1851 as well
Isobel
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That's excellent information. Thank you, Isobel.
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I'm sorry. I can't be sure about him in 1851. I can't find anyone who says they're born in Ditton Priors.
As for the wedding, do you have any birth certificates of the children to track down Mary's maiden name? You said there were a couple of possibilities for Alfred. I saw also for Alice there's a possibility in 4th quarter 1865 Clun Vol 6a page 517
Sorry I can 't help any more.
Isobel
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I was hoping to do it all via Alfred but your suggestion is, I think, a better (and cheaper) option.
My hope in finding him in the 1851 was to narrow down the possible range of when he may have married and also where he was living to give some guidance on where the marriage may have taken place. As you say, I can cut out a lot of searching time by ordering that birth cert.
Thanks again
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Update: It appears from a birth cert that William's wife is Mary Rowe. I have found a christening on 01/01/1832 at Diddlebury with the mother named as Virgin Roe - no father. I have found a birth for Virgin Roe at Madeley, christening date 27/12/1801, which would suggest that Mary could have been illegitimate.
There are two possible marriage records for William Jones and Mary. The first is September 1851, Birmingham and the second December 1851 in Llandovery which spans Breconshire and Camarthenshire.
No sign of Virgin Roe in 1841 or 1851 census. I was hoping that the place of marriage would narrow down possibilities for the location for William Jones or Mary Rowe but no luck so far.
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Update (2)
I now have the marriage certificate for William Jones and Mary Rowe (or Roe). They were married in St Martin's Birmingham September 1851 but I still can not find either of them in the 1851 census.
Mary Rowe's father is James Rowe, carpenter. I have managed to find a James Rowe born and raised in Lilleshall (wife Sarah) from the 1841 census onwards and described as a cabinet maker and widowed by 1861. I have not managed to find a Mary Rowe living with them. There is a very strange entry in the 1841 census - just before the Rowe family listing there is a Mary Boughey aged about 7 living either on her own or with the Rowe family according to the place divisions. As I can not find James' marriage to Sarah, I can not check out her maiden name. I am also confused as to why a Lilleshall based family would have a daughter born in Diddlebury.
William Jones' father is John Jones a schoolmaster. Again, the only fit is a family from Shrewsbury.
Extremely dazed and confused.
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Hello again
Did the marriage certificate confirm William as being a tailor? Just to be sure it's the right marriage :)
Isobel
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Indeed, yes, profession: tailor.
It has been a rather frustrating round of research. There were 2 marriages between William Jones and Mary Rowe but the other one's father was not John Jones. Even one of their sons, Alfred John (my great grandfather), has caused problems. After several false trails, I have now found his birth registered as John Alfred. Unfortunately, the John Jones and James Rowe information has led to other problems rather than tidy solutions.
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This is the 1841 James Rowe census reference
HO107/906/2
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I saw the 1841 and 1851 census for James Rowe. I also looked in the IGI and that whole family seems to be christened in Lilleshall. Their son John would be about the same age as Mary, aged 17 in 1851 so if they had a Mary, she really couldn't have been born in Diddlebury.
There's a possible Mary Boughey in 1851 living as a servant with William Husley in Sutton. Her place of birth is given as Moreton Sea. That doesn't really help a lot either I'm afraid.
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My thought on this was that if you look at Mary Rowe's birth in Diddlesbury in the IGI it shows the mother as Virgin Roe but no father's name. She could have been illegitimate and the mother could have moved Parish for the birth. If Sarah's maiden name is Boughey then it could make some sort of sense.
I have even searched the 1841 and 1851 census with just the first name of Mary with her birth information and that throws up nothing helpful. One of those dead ends I fear.
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If Mary Rowe was the illegitimate daughter of Virgin Rowe then it is unlikely her father was called Rowe.
Burial 14th January 1835 St Peter Diddlebury
Barbara Virgin Rowe aged 26
also
Elizabeth Rowe aged 26
26th January 1833
What were the full details of the William Jones and Mary Rowe marriage in Wales in 1851. Were the details so different that this couple has to be ruled out?
Regards
Valda
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According to Parish records, William Jones was born in Ditton Priors 13/03/1828 son of John Jones and Mary Beddows. When I applied for the two certificates, I included a reference match for father John Jones. The Llandovery one was rejected on that basis.
Yes, I was clutching at straws regarding Mary Rowe's birth in Diddlebury and the fact that the mother is named as Virgin Roe and there is no father could be purely down to poor indexing by the IGI contributor.
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What profession does the Ditton Priors baptismal register give for William's father John?
Regards
Valda
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I do not have that information - this came to me from a relative who lives in the area and who phoned a member of the local (Ditton) FHS
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Since it is proving to be so difficult I think you need as much information as possible on which to base the marriage search including William's father's occupation in the baptismal register. I would also check whether William had any siblings. Ditto the Mary Rowe baptismal entry if you think there is any doubt - though it is an extracted entry not a church member submitted entry so it is more likely to be accurate.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks for the advice.
There are only two marriages between William Jones and Mary Rowe in the time span 1845-1855. I have also checked for the spelling Roe. I know that William Jones married Mary Rowe as I have that from birth certs for some of the children.
I can not find Mary Rowe or William Jones living with family in the 1841 census or with family or alone in the 1851 census. I have searched intensively using various spelling combinations of fore and surnames and even specific parishes and streets. IGI does not cover the two parishes for the date range needed so I think I have no option now other than to approach the Shropshire FHS or the Shrewsbury records office.
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William is the legitimate birth and so he has no known reason to 'massage' the information about his father, so a definite match to his information will help prove you have the right marriage. Illegitimate people however did fabricate the information about their fathers if they could i.e. marrying out of area where they were not known. Since the information they gave had to be accepted at face value they would claim they were legitimate and either make up the information, copy the information from a close male relative, or name their real father if they knew him, but change his surname to match their own.
Since the evidence points to the fact Mary was illegitimate, I think anything she claims about her father on her marriage you have to take with a pinch of salt and understand her reasons for claiming legitimacy. She was not alone in this, many illegitimate people did actually the same thing on their marriages.
Regards
Valda
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I'm sure Shropshire Family History Society could recommend an inexpensive and efficient researcher who also knows local records and can give advice. In the past I have found such people extremely helpful particularly once you are out of 'census range'.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you - I have relatives living in Bishop's Castle, I will try to enlist their help. I think read on the Shropshire FHS that they only have limited copies of Parish records so Shrewsbury will probably be the best option.
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Re: Mary Rowe
This may prove to be utter nonsense but here goes anyway:
I have carried out a search of the 1851 census on Ancestry with a christian name of Mary b1832 in Diddlebury. It has thrown out just one match in terms of date and place of birth and that is for a Mary Dyer, daughter of James Dyer, carpenter, b circa 1798 in Culmington and living in Diddlebury. She is also living with him in the 1841 census.
I have checked the IGI for Diddlebury (and Culmington) and there is no christening record for Mary Dyer. I have also checked for James Dyer marriages in the two parishes and have found nothing.
On the plus side, the date and place of birth are correct and the christian name of the father and his occupation fit with the marriage certificate details. Also, there is no IGI record of Mary Dyer's birth nor of James Dyer's marriage.
On the negative side, the 1841 and 1851 census returns have Mary's name as Dyer and the marriage certificate has the father's surname as Rowe.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that he was the father and, after the possible mother's death in 1835 (burial 14th January 1835 St Peter Diddlebury Barbara Virgin Rowe aged 26) that he adopted the child and gave her his surname?
Would it ever be provable or only ever a possible scenario?
Thanks
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Wow Barnford - great sleuthing!
He would not have had to "adopt" the child - no formal adoption back then. It was common for step children to be referred to by their stepfather's name on census records (i.e. just give the whole family the same name), so I could easily believe that a child being looked after by her birth father (or, even if he his not her biological father, the person acting as her father) being given his name on a census even though her "official" name is something different. If this scenario is true, she may have even used the name Dyer in everyday life, only putting Roe on the certificates because that was her official name.
I don't think there would be any way to prove that this is her though? You could discount it by finding Mary Dyer later in life (to prove that she couldn't be Mary Roe), or if the Dyer name creeped up in the family later on it might be a clue. But beyond that I don't think there is any way??
MJP
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Hi Barnford,
I am a descendent of William Jones. He is my great great grandfather and Mary Dyer is my great, great grandmother. Annie Jones is my great grandmother. I too am searching for Mary Dyer. I have read the threads on Mary Dyer and see you are running into the same issues as myself. Annie Jones married George Jackson and immigrated to Ontario, Canada in the early 1900's. Thelma Alice Jackson is my grandmother who was born in Ontario Canada.
I did see James Dyer was a widower in the 1841 English Census and that is when I did a search for his wife with no luck. At one time, I did put Mary Rowe (Roe) as her name and took it out thinking I had the wrong name. I was surprised to see her name come up in the threads.
I am on Ancestry under the Nichols family tree. You can look at my family tree and see if you have the same information as me. I will gladly exchange any information I have on this family with you.
Janetmb52
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Thank you for the information. Jones research is notoriously difficult as you probably know and it took me several years to build this Jones family (my father's maternal line through Alfred John Jones and daughter Bertha Jones/Holton based in Nottingham). To the first point: I am not sure there was ever a Mary Dyer - at least not one I can trace. It is possible James was Mary Roe/Rowe's father but I have no evidence of that and the Mary living with him is far too young to be his wife, especially in 1841. I can not find 'my' Annie Jones anywhere in the 1911 UK census nor any death 1901-11, so your scenario is possible. I wonder if you have any evidence such as a marriage certificate, which confirms father's occupation (tailor) or anything which confirms her place of birth (Bromyard Herefordshire) in any records after 1901. I may have a photo of her taken in about 1880 with the rest of the family if you have any family photos to compare.
Regards
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Hi,
Thank you for your reply. I do have Annie Jones's marriage certificate to George Jackson. When I first started out searching my family tree, there were too many Jones and Jackson to figure out which ones belong to me so I ordered their marriage certificate. It was a process of elimination when I was searching immigration records to Canada. I chose one couple and it turned out I was right. On the marriage certificate it indicates William Jones is her father and he is a tailor.
I was looking at my tree and I was wondering if you your father is Ernest Albert Holton who was married to Annie Vera Free or Leonard Holton who was married to Winifred M Brownlow.
Do you use Ancestry? If you do, do you have a family tree where I can compare to mine?
Janetmb52
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I have PMd you.