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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: Ruskie on Thursday 23 November 06 05:04 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
I've been having a great time playing with Scottish records all day today. Now, I'm a bit stuck with a couple of people. Maybe this question should be on the Wigtown board, but will see how I go here first.
I am looking for the marriage of:
William Lamont, labourer, born about 1807, Minnigaff
Margaret Blain, born about 1811, Glenluce, Wgt
Exact marriage date and parent's names is what I'm hoping for. I couldn't find them on Scotland's People OPR's.
I have 5 children born to this couple. The oldest I have found is Jane (possible middle name Murry?) born 1834. (Dates and names are from 1851 census).
Hope someone can help. Thanks to all.
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Hi Ruskie
I haven't been able to find a marriage of these two. It could have been an irregular marriage or the records may have been lost. I will keep looking.
However, I have found the death of William and the certificate gives his parents names:
May 30th 1874, Minnigaff 876 -9
William Lamont,aged 63, wood forester, married to Margaret Blain.
Parents - William Lamont, labourer, dec. and Janet, maiden surname Pollock, dec.
Informant - William Lamont, son.
As you can see, Margaret is still alive at this time. I haven't been able to locate her in the 1881 census in Minnigaff but neither have I found a death record as yet. Again, I will keep looking.
Regards
Gadget
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I've been trying to see if their known children give us any clues to Margaret's parents names by their use of Scottish naming conventions but they don't seem to fit too well.
These are children's baptisms of this couple:
14 July 1834 Jane Murray
23 April 1837 Peter
9 Dec 1840 William (probably died, see below)
27 March 1842 Elizabeth McCrae
22 June 1845 Letitia
28 May 1848 William
From this, Margaret's parents might possibly be a Peter Blain and and Elizabeth but there doesn't appear to be a strict pattern :-\
Gadget
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Hi Ruskie and Gadget,
This looks like an interesting possibility from the 1851 Census:
POLLOCK Jannet, mother of William Lamont, unmarried, age 80, Pauper, b. Minnigaff Kbt.
Address Blackcraig(876), Minnigaff
Monica
Added: Ruskie, you must have her details. She living with William, son, and family.
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Hi Gadget
Thanks so much for your help and for finding William's death with his parent's names. More progress!
Yes Monica, I do have Jannet Pollock and the 1851 census information - thank you.
I thought it was peculiar that Jannet was listed with the surname Pollock and the unmarried mother of William Lamont (perhaps they meant widowed). That was a bit confusing until Gadget found William's death with Pollock as Jannet's maiden surname. Can either of you possibly find the death of Jannet? I don't know if she would be listed as Lamont or Pollock? If her age at death is listed I can get approximate year of birth.
With the family is also Letitia Blain, which must be Margaret's sister and William's sister in law (rather than sister of William as it says in the census).
I also have been puzzling over the children's middle names, Murray and McCrae. Clues? Indication of maiden names ... but whose?
I have really been enjoying my "Scottish experience" and many thanks to you both. Unfortunately one of my Scottish links is now leading me to Ireland and an inevitable dead end I fear.
You've both been a great help - thank you very much.
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Hi Ruskie
I think Janet Pollock may have died between 1851-54 and the start of official registration in Scotland in 1855. There is no death entry showing for her on Scotlands People. Pity.
Regards.
Monica
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Thanks very much for looking Monica.
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Hi Ruskie
No help from the 1841 Census in respect of Janet Pollock. She is listed as living alone, age 63, at Blackcraig, Minnigaff, born in the County.
Monica
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You've been really helpful, thank you Monica. All information helps.
I don't suppose you can find a death for Margaret Lamont (nee Blain)? I'm new to Scotland's people (not too good at searrching), but had a look and couldn't find a death in Kirkcudbright - the obvious look. Am I correct in thinking her death record would show her parents?
Do not use up your credits in a search, but if you find a possible death, I can use my credits to view the record.
Any info much appreciated.
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Ruskie
There's no obvious death entries for Margaret. There is only one Lamon*/Bla*n* entry but she's too young (by 20 yrs) to be your Margaret. I've also looked for Margaret Blain only and there are two deaths in the area:
1879 BLAIN MARGARET/ STEWART 71 MOCHRUM /WIGTOWN 892/00 0065
1878 BLAND MARGARET/ FERGUSON F 64 KIRKCUDBRIGHT /KIRKCUDBRIGHT 871/00 0043
As you can see the other name in the entries (not mother's maiden name) doesn't connect with anything you have found as yet.
Have you checked the 1861 Census to confirm that she was alive post 1855?
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks again for your help.
No I haven't yet found Margaret on the 61 census but if you have a look at Gadget's first post, she appears to be alive when husband William Lamont dies in 1874.
A bit of a puzzle. Margaret doesn't appear to have ventured very far in her life, so you'd think she'd be findable.
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Ruskie
I think from Gadget's post, it didn't show William as a widower...but that doesn't always mean that their partner had not already died. Sometimes you hunt for ever for someone because they don't show as deceased in their husband/wife's DC, only to find that they had indeed preceeded them.
You're probably going to have to check the 1871 (1861) Census to see what the situation was.
Monica
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From the search results in Kbt for 1861, only one William shows 45-60 which must be your William given it's in Minnigaff. From the search results, all with the same refs. which can indicate the same household (at least on the same page), GROS Ref:876/00 003/00 007:
William, 50
Elizabeth, 18
William, 12
Monica
PS: If you decide to view, it will show William's marital status.
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Thanks for those names Monica - that's great.
Would this indicate that Margaret may already be dead? William and Elizabeth are two of his children - ages correct.
I will top up my SP credits on Monday and check out that census.
I was quite disappointed the other day that one of my census images went over two pages, so I missed out on the parent's names! Always a risk on pay to view.
You've been very helpful - thanks a lot.
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Hi Both
Sorry for the delay, I have had hospital appointments today and, thankfully, been passed with A1 eyes so can now continue with my computer work ;D ;D ;D
I have got the 1871 with Margaret alive and well and aged 56. I then did a death search for her from 1871 to 1900, although no sign on the 1881.
I'll go back through my searches this evening and see if i can come up with something.
I do recall seeing a Margaret Blair bpt in Old Luce/Glenluce. Again, I'll have to look.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
Brilliant everything went well for you. Also pleased Margaret Blain is still alive and well, I had her for gonners from the 1861 index search!
Monica
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Letitia is still alive in 1881 living alone, age 69, unmarried, a laundress, in Minnigaff. No trace after this census.
Monica
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Monica
To help my eyes - could you tell me what info we haven't got yet, please.
We have the 1851, 1861, 1871 (I'll put up). We have William's death cert.
Is it worth finding out where the rest of the children went - I recall some grandchildren and also that there were 4 poss deaths for Margaret but in Glasgow or Forfar.
Gadget
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It's really only Margaret Blain's DC outstanding for that generation. William's mother Janet Pollock looks to have died pre 1855. No trace as yet on anything for Margaret Blain's own family other than the possibility that Letitia was her sister.
Monica
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Oh dear :(
I might just have found a possible death for poor Margaret:
July 30 1874 821 - 259
Southern Counties Asylum, Dumfries
Margaret Blair Lamond, aged 60, married to ---- Lamont,
Right hemiplegia with apoplexia, 2 months; bedsores, 1 month; insanity. Informant - M Cunningham, attendant, present at death.
No parents' names given - obviously she had a stroke at some stage :'(
Gadget :( :( :(
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Here are the 1861 and 1871 census details:
1861 - Minnigaff 876-3-7
William Lamont, 50, labourer, b. Minnigaff
Elizabeth, d, 18, b. Minnigaff
William, 12, b. Minnigaff
1871 - Minnigaff 876 - 5 - 2
Dromcroft
William, 60, wood forester's assistant, b. Minnigaff
Margaret, 56, b. Old Luce
Elizabeth, d, 30, outdoor worker, b. Minnigaff
William, grdson, 7, b. Minnigaff
Robert, grdson, 5, b. Minnigaff
Peter, grdson, 3, b. Minnigaff
Tom, grdson, 7 mths, b. Minnigaff
Gadget
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Well done Gadget, that looks like it could be her entry. Lack of info is a BIG problem for verifying her parents :'(
How are you getting her entry to come up on SP. I'd been searching for a Ma*r*/L*m*n*/bl* and getting nothing. Even putting in the details that you have found, I still get nothing on SP. Odd.
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From the 1871 list of grandchildren, all look to be illegitimate births:
William, grdson, 7, b. Minnigaff.........Elizabeth's
Robert, grdson, 5, b. Minnigaff..........Letitia's
Peter, grdson, 3, b. Minnigaff............Letitia's
Tom, grdson, 7 mths, b. Minnigaff.....Elizabeth's
Monica
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Well done Gadget, that looks like it could be her entry. Lack of info is a BIG problem for verifying her parents :'(
How are you getting her entry to come up on SP. I'd been searching for a Ma*r*/L*m*n*/bl* and getting nothing. Even putting in the details that you have found, I still get nothing on SP. Odd.
Goodness knows, Monica ::) ::) ::)
I went through my previous searches:
you searched for: Surname: "LAMONT"; Use Soundex: On; Forename: "M**"; Sex: "Both"; Year From: 1874; Year To: 1881; Birth Year: 1815; Birth Year Range: 10
I have looked at bpts for Mar* Bla* 1810 - 1820 on the IGI. I think that's how I found a Margaret Blair.
Gadget ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Monica and Gadget,
I can't thank you enough for all your help. I am really grateful. I now have so much to digest!!
Firstly, Gadget, I'm so pleased that you have the all clear healthwise. That is good news and must be a huge relief for you.
I feel so guilty you two have been busy working on my behalf, and I've been out and about, shopping etc. I have been looking for genealogy books and software, so I suppose that is not so bad! ;D
Poor Margaret in an asylum - and she died a couple of months after William! Quite sad. I imagine Blain and Blair would be almost interchangable surnames at that time. Even when written the n can look like an r.
I am quite interested in the illegitimate births. Do these children only have Letitia/Elizabeth named as mother with no father named? I'm glad they're not the direct line I'm tracing. That would make the search even more difficult.
How can I ever find Margaret's parents? I thought it MIGHT be easier to trace (possible) sister Letitia, but that doesn't seem to be so.
Monica and Gadget, you are both wonderful! I really value your assistance, generosity and advice.
Thank you.
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Hi Ruskie
You out shopping and we slaving over hot computers :o :o :o
I've been trying to search for letitia/Letisha's death. There must be a certificate somewhere. So far I've done 1881 - 1900 for Bl* in Minnigaff and then KKD also Wigtown area and Dumfries. It might be that she has been very badly transcribed or her name was not known (very sad if this is the case).
Have you checked for her on the 1841, 61 and 71? It might be worth trying to build a timeline for her.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Yup, weekends are horrible here - no peace and quiet for researching - lots of interruptions - I just can't concentrate. Weekdays are lovely - kids at school, other half at work and plenty of time.
No I haven't got Letitia other than in the 51 and what you and Monica have found. I only discovered this whole family on Thursday. I do feel quite sorry for them actually - they must have had it tough. But in a lovely part of the world.
I will top up my Scotland's people credits on Monday and try to find Letitia in more census. I did suspect her name may have been mistranscribed. I couldn't read it on the 51.
Thanks again Gadget - you're a star!
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Right, couldn't resist - had two credits left and used them to look for Letitia Blain. I found her (I think) in 1841 age 25 in Penninghame Wigtown. In 1861 she is 49 and in Minnigaff. Age of birth varies a bit, but there only seems to be one Letitia Blain in all of Scotland.
Penninghame has cropped up on another post of mine with replies by Monica and Gadget. I had found a Letitia Blain born Old Luce with parents John Blain and Helen Hannay. I wondered if this couple had any more children.
There was a John Blain and a Helen (but with different surname) having children in Penninghame. I've got all sorts of "what ifs" going through my head.
I'm even wondering if there may be a second marriage here somewhere. John marries Helen - they have Letitia, Helen dies, John marries another Helen, they have several children. Oops, nearly forgot - I need to find Margaret! Letting my imagination run away with me .....
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Hi Ruskie
I'm not sure the 1841 will give you any more info. Letitia, aged 25-29, born county was in Penninghame, Wigtown, a servant in the household of Jannet Newall (or son Alexander - the marks are a bit unclear) Ref 895 - 5 - 1.
Also, for ref, Jannet Pollock, aged 63, is listed twice in the 1841 in Minnigaff. First at Mines, 876 - 7 - 29 next door to:
Peter Lamond, 20-24, ag lab
Eliza, 20-24
William, 15-19
James, 11
Jean, 7
Janet, 5
David, 3
Peter, 2
All born County. This household is 4 away from William and Margaret at Blackcraig.
She is also listed as the last entry in Blackcraigs, Minnigaff 876 - 7- 35
Jannet Pollock, 63, born County
I think it is just a duplicate entry.
Gadget
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Just got back from my shopping expedition (driving rain both ways!). Seeing your last post re Janet Pollock with a Peter Lamond and family. Made me think, this might be the Peter behind the name of William and Margaret Blain's child. As such, a brother of William Lamont(d). Which again brings us back to what are the names of Margaret's parents (if not John and Helen or Peter).
Monica
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The children's names don't help us very much at all in this one Monica :( Notice that Peter is with an Eliza (not sure if wife or not - could be a sibling if the other children's ages are anything to go by) - could this be a poss McCrae. There were lots in that area - I have one myself ;)
Also, my names were odd from here as well - often local dignitaries, etc.
I haven't found a Helen Blain on the 1841 yet.
Gadget
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Peter with a Grace now (not Eliza) in the 1851 Census:
Peter, 48, Land Steward, b. Minnigaff
Grace, 48, b. Penninghame
William, 25, b. Minnigaff
Jane Stevenson, 20, Agri. Lab. b. Minnigaff
Hanna Stevenson g/daugh?(down as d-i-l but must be down in error!) 2 mnths
Jessie, 17, b. Minnigaff
David, 10, b. Kirkmaiden
Grace, 4, b. Kirkmaiden
Margaret, 2, b. Kirkmaiden
Address: Longrigg(890), Kirkmaiden
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No marriages showing for Peter to either Eliza or Grace on IGI :(
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He aged ??? ??? ???
He was down as 20 -24 in the 41. Children's names are more or less the same - Jean becomes Jessie, etc.
Spect the marriage was an irregular again, Monica :(
We really do need to try and get a handle on Letitia though. I think I've exhausted all possibilities of names in the death searches. Wonder if the Kirk Session's minutes would have anything in about possible pauper's burials - or had it been transferred by then?
Gadget
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Not sure about the Kirk Session minutes, Gadget. I have only seen what is on the Dumgal site and they stop around the 1830s. I have a feeling for Letitia, if she was the last of her line, even if we find a death cert for her (and like you I have drawn a blank - even looked across the border on Freebmd) it may well have no more details than we already have re the IGI birth entry or probably nothing for parents (won't be certain until checked of course!).
Monica
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Oh there will certainly be Kirk Session minutes after that date - somewhere. Most are in Edinburgh. I was lucky in Parton - the KS Clerk had got copies of most of them.
There are also the Poor Board Minutes:
Got this quote from the old-kirkcudbright site
http://www.old-kirkcudbright.net/genealogy/poor.asp
For more information on the poorhouse, the Ewart Library in Dumfries has the complete minutes recorded by the Board from 1848 to 1930 inclusive. Interesting though these are, unfortunately they seldom mention details of actual inmates. The Stewartry Museum in Kirkcudbright also has some photographic material.
Gadget
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Peter Lamont was certainly brother to William. He died in 1885 in Kirkmaiden. Parents William Lamont, Lead Miner and mother Janet Pollock, both deceased.
Wife Grace McClive still alive until 1887.
Monica
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Going back to Letitia Blain.
I found the Minnigaff kirk Session Minutes reference at NAS:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xu/
Anyone going to Edinburgh ???
Gadget
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I'm amazed by you two - you've been really hard at work, and once again I can't thank you enough! (Do you mind if I ask where you are getting all this information from)?
I read your posts on page two over a few times, trying to get my head around your findings - then I discoved you're onto page three! I'd just got as far as understanding the posts up to the 1841 census with Peter, Eliza, (I also thought these two may be siblings) and kids. The 2 year old Peter MAY be the line I am chasing. He is the son of William Lamont and Margaret Blain born/christened 1838. Perhaps Peter (age 20-24) may be brother to William and uncle to young Peter?
I think I'd better go away and digest all this ... I'm getting all excited and confused and I need to sit alone in a quiet room to get this straight in my brain. I'll be back later .... a million thanks Monica and Gadget.
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Peter Lamont was certainly brother to William. He died in 1885 in Kirkmaiden. Parents William Lamont, Lead Miner and mother Janet Pollock, both deceased.
Wife Grace McClive still alive until 1887.
Monica
Hello from USA--
I saw your posts about the Lamont family....thought you may want to know that Peter Lamont and his wife Grace McClive, from Kirkmaiden, one of their son's David, born about 1841, immigrated to the US about 1868. He came to Pittsburgh, PA and married a Jane Granger. Their children, as far as I know, were: Grace, Lydia, Jessie and John(died young).
His daughter Lydia married my grandfather and died in childbirth of her first child.
David Lamont and family lived in the Sharpsburg/Etna area of Pittsburgh, Allegheny Co. PA
David died in 1927.
I have learned from you guys who Peter's parents were. I hope to include a scan of the Obituary for David Lamont.
Sincerely,
neffhur
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Peter Lamont was certainly brother to William. He died in 1885 in Kirkmaiden. Parents William Lamont, Lead Miner and mother Janet Pollock, both deceased.
Wife Grace McClive still alive until 1887.
Monica
Hello from USA--
I saw your posts about the Lamont family....thought you may want to know that Peter Lamont and his wife Grace McClive, from Kirkmaiden, one of their son's David, born about 1841, immigrated to the US about 1868. He came to Pittsburgh, PA and married a Jane Granger. Their children, as far as I know, were: Grace, Lydia, Jessie and John(died young).
His daughter Lydia married my grandfather and died in childbirth of her first child.
David Lamont and family lived in the Sharpsburg/Etna area of Pittsburgh, Allegheny Co. PA
David died in 1927.
I have learned from you guys who Peter's parents were. I hope to include a scan of the Obituary for David Lamont.
Sincerely,
neffhur
Also, meant to say the obit states he came to usa "55" years ago, but I think it is more like 35 yrs. His daughter mentioned, Mrs. William Woods, is Jessie.
I have my stuff posted on Ancestry if you subscribe to that. Good Luck!!
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Hello Neffhur and welcome to rootschat. Thank you for the extra information.
I haven't worked on this branch of the family for some time so I will have to go back over it all to refresh my memory. I have to sign off now, but will be back later .... :)
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Hi again neffhur.
I've recently been going through my Lamont posts and doing a bit more research into this family.
Do you have Peter b 1803 and Grace in the Scottish censuses? Earlier in this post there was mention of Peter with an Eliza on the 1841 census. This is actually incorrect - in the original image his wife is clearly Grace. There must have been a transcription error.
Do you have a record of Peter's birth/baptism? I am unable to find one.
I have been unable to find a marriage for Peter's parents, William Lamont and Janet Pollock, nor can I find a death for Janet. Janet is 80 in 1851 and I have tried many combinations of names and places after 1851, but I can't find a death for her. Have you had any success with any of these bmd's?
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Oh dear :(
I might just have found a possible death for poor Margaret:
July 30 1874 821 - 259
Southern Counties Asylum, Dumfries
Margaret Blair Lamond, aged 60, married to ---- Lamont,
Right hemiplegia with apoplexia, 2 months; bedsores, 1 month; insanity. Informant - M Cunningham, attendant, present at death.
No parents' names given - obviously she had a stroke at some stage :'(
Gadget :( :( :(
An update to this old post ..... In case anyone also researching this family stumbles upon this in the future, I now have proof that this is the correct Margaret (Blain) Lamont. She is buried in Minnigaff with her husband William and other family members. I also have a copy of her medical certificate, petition to the sheriff, brief case notes etc. Contact me if you would like a copy. Her admission to the Asylum preceded her death, by over a year. This came as a surprise as I wrongly assumed she may have been put into the Asylum after a stroke.
Unfortunately I still do not know who her parents are. :(