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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Caithness => Topic started by: ostler on Tuesday 28 November 06 12:12 GMT (UK)

Title: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 28 November 06 12:12 GMT (UK)
Me again. ;D

I'm getting really frustrated looking for a couple of relations of mine. Angus Sutherland born c.1806 and Janet Sutherland (née Sutherland) born c.1816, both in Latheron. They were married 14th April 1843 in Latheron. They had one son as far as I'm aware, William born c.1845, Latheron. In the 1851 census, Angus, Janet and William reside in 4 Badbea, Berriedale, Latheron. If anyone could look up any other censuses to find particularly Angus and Janet, or if there's any other advice you lot could give me, I'd be most appreciative. :)

Ta
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JustJean on Tuesday 28 November 06 14:10 GMT (UK)
Hello

If you search on www.ScotlandsPeople.gov.uk in the 1861 census using these terms:

You searched for: Surname: "sutherland"; Use Soundex: Off; Forename: "angus*"; Sex: "Male"; Age From: 50; Age To: 60; Year: 1861; County: "CAITHNESS"; District: "LATHERON";

you'll find there are only 2 results.....and the first one looks like your family based on what you've stated.  If you know Angus's occupation from 1851 it would make it more definite.....but this family is living at Badbea so it's is probably them.  Not hard to find at all  ;D

Best wishes
Jean
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 29 November 06 20:41 GMT (UK)
Hi Ostler

I remember from your previous post trying to track down Angus, Janet and William that it looked like William was their only son on the 1851 Census. From the index, this looks like the family highlighted by Jean. You will have to look at the original image to determine the relationships in the household:

Angus, 55, fisherman, b. Dunbeath
Janet Sutherland, 48, b. Berriedale
Janet Sutherland, 8, b. Berriedale
Margaret Sutherland, 15, Domestic Servant, b. Berriedale
William Sutherland, 15, b. Berriedale
Charlotte Gunn, 76, pauper, b. Berriedale

Address: Badbea, Latheron

Regards.

Monica
   
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Wednesday 29 November 06 21:47 GMT (UK)
Thanks, I'll have to get onto ScotlandsPeople and try it. :) It says Angus was born in Dunbeath... is that in the parish of Latheron? I'll see if I can look up his birth/baptizm on the site while I'm at it.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 29 November 06 22:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Ostler

Dunbeath is in the parish of Latheron. Have a look at this link for a simple map:

www.georgesons.co.uk/caith.html#map

Regards.

Monica
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Wednesday 29 November 06 23:38 GMT (UK)
Just looked up the baptizms, and there are two likely ones that could be my Angus. One is 21/7/1805 in Kildonan to William and Margaret Sutherland. Where's Kildonan?

The other is 29/1/1807 to John and Janet Sutherland in Clyne. Again I don't know where that is. I know it's up in the same area as Latheron, but one of you said Angus was born in Dunbeath. Which is closer to Dunbeath? :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 29 November 06 23:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Ostler

Clyne and Kildonan are both in Sutherland, have a look at this Parish link:

www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-caithness.htm

I had a look at IGI and think that Angus's birth entry doesn't appear to be there. Lots of reasons for this, OPRs haven't survived, birth not registered etc.

Have you found Angus's death cert.? This would confirm parents' names.

Regards.

Monica
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 30 November 06 00:01 GMT (UK)
Angus is still alive in 1881. Showing as married but no one else in the household other than him on the night. Still showing as born in Dunbeath, age, 76, Crofter (Formerly Wool Weaver), and still at Badbea.

Monica
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 30 November 06 00:07 GMT (UK)
Just realised occupation on the 1881 Census doesn't quite fit his 1861 entry of fisherman. He either changed direction or had died before the 1881 Census and there's a second Angus b. in Dunbeath around the same time  ???
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 30 November 06 00:20 GMT (UK)
Ostler

The 1881 Census entry seems to be the correct one I believe. Angus died in 1888. He'd been married twice to two Janets - GOW and then SUTHERLAND. Janet Sutherland was William's mother wasn't she (from your other post?).

Parents Neil Sutherland, crofter and fisherman, and mother Janet Bain (spl?). A cousin from Dunbeath reported the death.

Monica
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 30 November 06 00:36 GMT (UK)
A possible submitted entry for first marriage:

ANGUS SUTHERLAND  Marriages: Spouse:  JANET GOW    
Marriage:  19 DEC 1833  Latheron, Caithness, Scotland

And a further submitted entry for the second marriage:

ANGUS SUTHERLAND  Marriages: Spouse: JANET SUTHERLAND    
Marriage:  14 APR 1843  Latheron, Caithness, Scotland

And a futher submitted entry for what looks like Angus's parents:

NIEL SUTHERLAND  Marriages: Spouse: JANET BAIN
Marriage:  17 DEC 1802 Latheron, Caithness, Scotland

Monica
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 30 November 06 00:54 GMT (UK)
In respect of children to Neil and Janet Bain, there is one actual extract to a father Neil (no mother's name):

SUTHERLAND  Male Christening:  13 MAY 1812  Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Parents: Father: NIEL SUTHERLAND    

And a submitted entry for what may be Angus's christening:

ANGUS SUTHERLAND  Christening: 08 OCT 1803 Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Parents: Father NEIL SUTHERLAND

Submitted entries don't show when you search IGI by batch code alone (the source of this info is OPRs), so there may be further entries for siblings that have been submitted by members with father's name only. ..and of course, you can't search on IGI by father's name only. (chicken and egg  :()

Monica
   
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Thursday 30 November 06 12:02 GMT (UK)
You've certainly been busy! :o Thanks very much!

Bit confused about some things, though. I looked up the death certificate and the only one I could get was the one of Angus Sutherland dying in 1888, parents were Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain. It also mentions on the certificate that Angus was married to Janet Gow (deceased) and then secondly to Janet Sutherland. I assume Janet was maybe still alive at this time? ??? That'll be another hunt for me.

Angus was definitely married to Janet Sutherland on 14th Apr 1843.

If Angus was christianed in 1803 then I had his year of birth wrong by three years...

Ach, I don't know what to deduce from all of this. :-\
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 30 November 06 16:16 GMT (UK)
Word of caution, the IGI entries with the exception of the male Sutherland birth, are all submitted entries. The data including dates would need verification (not always possible given there doesn't seem to be corresponding OPRs entries!). Also, unlike today, people weren't necessarily exact with their ages, specially in the ages they stated for censuses (2/3 years out wasn't unusual).

Finding Janet, mother of William, DC may help with additional info.

Regards.


Monica
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Thursday 30 November 06 17:22 GMT (UK)
Time for a visit to Register House, methinks. ;)

Thanks for all your help; I'll let you know how I get on. :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 27 February 07 20:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Ostler,

Sorry I didn't spot this post earlier. I am also related to the Sutherland family that you are searching for  :)

My gggg grandmother Elizabeth Sutherland was Janet Sutherland's sister. Do you descend from Janet? She has another sister and a brother as far as I know, Jane Sutherland who married Thomas Rutherford and John Sutherland who remained unmarried.

I have her death record from SP as follows:

Janet Sutherland cottager widow of Angus Sutherland (crofter and woolen weaver) died 17 Jan 1900 Achnacraig Berriedale Female aged 87yrs Father: John Sutherland Crofter (dec), Mo: Catherine Sutherland (MS Gunn) (dec) debility from age gradual, no regular medical attendant. Informant - John Sutherland (neighbour - present)

And her parents (John Sutherland and Catherine Gunn) census returns if you would like them.

The 1861 census in Badbea is indeed them, and this is them in 1871 and 1881:

1871 census - Badbea, Berriedale, Caithness

Angus Sutherland Head M 67yrs Woolen weaver b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Wife M 56yrs b. Badbea, Caithness
Jessie Sutherland Dau U 18yrs Domestic Servant b. Badbea, Caithness
??? Sutherland Serv U 14yrs Domestic Servant b. Dunbeath, Caithness

1881census- Badbea, Latheron, Caithness

Angus Sutherland Head M 76yrs Crofter (formerly wool weaver) b. Dunbeath, Latheron

1881 census for Janet - Strathkinness, St Andrews, Fife, Scotland

Charles ANDERSON Head M 27 M Farmer's son Strathkinness, Fife, Scotland
Janet ANDERSON Wife M 28 F Badbea, Caithness, Scotland
Janet ANDERSON Dau 7 F Scholar Strathkinness, Fife, Scotland
Christina Wilson ANDERSON Dau 5 F Strathkinness, Fife, Scotland
Elspeth Louden ANDERSON Dau 3 F Strathkinness, Fife, Scotland
Charles ANDERSON Son 9 m M Strathkinness, Fife, Scotland
Janet SUTHERLAND M Visitor 68 F Farmer's wife Badbea, Caithness, Scotland

Angus us by himself and Janet is with her daughter Janet Anderson in Fife.

This is the widowed Janet in 1891:

1891 census - Achnacraig, Berriedale, Caithness

Janet Sutherland Head W 78yrs Annuitant b. Latheron, Caithness Gaelic and English Speaking

Hope this helps and I would love to hear from you soon  ;D

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Wednesday 28 February 07 11:07 GMT (UK)
My gggg grandmother Elizabeth Sutherland was Janet Sutherland's sister. Do you descend from Janet?
Thanks for all that, there does seem to be a link there anyway! When you say "Do you descend from Janet", which Janet do you mean? My tree has a ridiculous amount of Janet Sutherlands! ;D

I'm excited now, so I hope to hear from you soon! :D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 28 February 07 17:53 GMT (UK)
Sorry I meant Janet Sutherland daughter of John Sutherland and Catherine Gunn, ie wife of Angus Sutherland.

I would love to hear how you descend from this couple as I descend from her sister Elizabeth Sutherland, who had an illigitimate son James Rutherford.

I can give you details of Elizabeth, her brother John, sister Jane and parents if you like. Just PM me your e-mail address and I'll send what I can. I am also in contact with a descendant from Jane Sutherland and Thomas Rutherford and I can let her know about you too  ;D

Hope that helps

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: HJO on Friday 02 March 07 23:44 GMT (UK)
 :)

Hi

From these messges it looks likes Jen has found another branch of our Sutherland tree :) :)

I am from the line of Jane Sutherland c 1798 daughter of John Sutherland and Catherine Gunn, Jane married Thomas Rutherford. 

atherine Gunns parents are John Gunn & Janet Sutherland ( just to confuse things even further another Sutherland - they must all have been inter-married one way or another but I guess in a small area like it is to be expected).  But I think the Rutherford boys who came up with the sheep stirred things up a bit as there seem to be a couple of bairns born out of wedlock!! 

Happy to share any info on this family.

Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Saturday 03 March 07 16:57 GMT (UK)
Happy to share any info on this family.
Yes please! :)

PM me if you'd like to do it privately or via email. :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 03 March 07 17:12 GMT (UK)
Hey Helen/Bryce,

Glad to see you guys have hooked up too. I am busily checking out the gedcoms you both e-mailed over and will catch up with you both soon  ;)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Monday 25 June 07 18:22 BST (UK)
*bump*

Wondering if anyone can help me with some more Sutherlands. ;D

Neil/Niel Sutherland m. Janet Bain, 17 Dec 1802 in Latheron. If anyone has any info on these two people, I'd be most grateful. I've looked up death certificates and it seems both of them had died before 1855 (seems unlikely somehow, but not impossible. I wonder if they emigrated?). They had one son, Angus, b.1803, and I'm sure they had more. In 1841 census there are a couple of Neil/Neil Sutherlands, but it doesn't really tie in. There's no Janet Bain either...

I'm nearly conceding to the fact that this is as far back with my family I can get, but if anyone has any advice for stuff to look at or anything else I can do before giving up, please let me know. :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 01 July 07 21:37 BST (UK)
Hey Bryce,

There will be no giving up!! I am in the middle of a holiday, but will have a look around when I get back in a couple of weeks. I am guessing that they were deceased by 1855, but could be wrong, and they may have been deceased by the 1841 census too, people didn't necessarily live that long back then.

If you get a chance to visit New Register House, it might be a trawl through the death records for 'Sutherland' in and around Latheron on the cards to see if you get any other children of theirs, that is what I did for John Sutherland and Catherine Gunn, very time consuming but very rewarding as I found you and Helen  ;D

Incidently is this the 1841 census you have for Angus and his first wife Janet Gow?

Place: Latheron -Caithness
Civil Parish: Latheron
Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Berriedale
Address: Knockally

SUTHERLAND Angus M 35 Wool Hand Loom Weaver Caithness
SUTHERLAND Jannet F 25 Caithness
SUTHERLAND Eliza F 30 Caithness
DOUGLAS John M 7 Caithness

If so, then Eliza Sutherland may be a sister or relative? John Douglas may also be a rellie, a nephew or something?

Good luck, and let me know how it all goes.

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Monday 02 July 07 10:42 BST (UK)
I don't know how to tell for definite if that's who it is, but it's not impossible. :-\
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Monday 02 July 07 10:42 BST (UK)
Oh, did I ever send you that picture? :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 02 July 07 17:15 BST (UK)
No you didn't  ::)

E-mail it to me  :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 03 July 07 10:13 BST (UK)
I'm on it. ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 21 July 07 12:11 BST (UK)
Hey Bryce,

Was at New Register House today looking up some stuff and while I was looking up a marriage I happened to see on the same page a marriage for a Esther Sutherland (daughter of Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain).....weird hey!!

So it looks like this is a long lost (well only to us) sister to your Angus Sutherland :)

I copied all the details down for you:

13 July 1877 at Bruan, Latheron marriage between

James Sutherland (crofter & cooper journeyman) widower Fa: Benjamin Sutherland crofter & fisherman dec Mo: Catherine Sutherland (MS Cormack dec) 70yrs Res: Smerly Swiney, Latheron

Esther Sutherland (agricultural labourer - widow) Fa: Neil Sutherland crofter & fisherman dec Mo: Janet Sutherland (MS Bain dec) 50yrs Res: Smerly Swiney, Latheron

Witnesses: John Bain, Margaret Forbes

So this makes her born approx 1827 which would make her a younger sister to Angus by quite a number of years, so my guess is that there are many more siblings!! I checked for her death and got the following:

Death: Esther Sutherland crofter widow 1st William Bain crofter 2nd James Sutherland crofter died 10 Mar 1900 at ??Hill, Smerlie, Lybster aged 75yrs Fa: Neil Sutherland crofter dec, Mo: Janet Sutherland MS Bain dec Heart Disease & Pneumonia. Informant Alexander Bain son & inmate present.

and her census details:

1841 census - Knockallie, Latheron, Caithness

Niel Sutherland 60yrs Fisherman born in county
Jannet Sutherland 35yrs born in county
Jannet Sutherland 20yrs born in county
Esther Sutherland 15yrs born in county
Isabella Sutherland 10yrs born in county
Robert Sutherland 8yrs born in county
George Sutherland 6yrs born in county
Alexander Sutherland 4yrs born in county
William Sutherland 1yr born in county

1851 census - Barthargio, Latheron, Caithness

Willm Bain Head M 45yrs Farmer of 4 acres b. Latheron, Caithness
Esther Bain Wife M 26yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Bain Sister 50yrs b. Latheron, Caithness

1861 census - Lomgove, Latheron, Caithness

William Bain Head M 58yrs Farmer b. Latheron, Caithness
Esther Bain Wife M 36yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Donald Bain Son 8yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Bain Dau 5yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Alexander Bain Son 3yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Bain Sister 63yrs b. Latheron, Caithness

1871 census - Badharigo, Swiney Estate, Lybster, Latheron

William Bain Head M 66yrs Crofter b. Swiney, Caithness
Esther Bain Wife M 46yrs crofter's wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Margaret Bain Dau U 15yrs Scholar b. Swiney, Caithness
Alexander Bain Son U 13yrs Scholar b. Swiney, Caithness

1891 census - Swiney Estate, Lybster, Latheron

Esther Sutherland Head W 62yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness (gaelic & english speaking)
Alexander Bain Son U 32yrs Gen Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness

seeing that the 1841 census seems to be you Neil Sutherland (though I cannot actually look at the image and no relationships are mentioned, so have put them in descending age order only) I thought I would look at the other census for this family.

1851 census - Balnabruick, Latheron, Caithness

Neil Sutherland Head 76yrs Crofter of 3 acres b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Wife 50yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Dau 30yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Alexr Sutherland Son 11yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
William Sutherland Son 9yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

1861 census - Balnabruich, Latheron, Caithness

Neil Sutherland Head 80yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Wife 60yrs Crofter's wife b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Dau 40yrs Household & Agricultural Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness
Isabella Sutherland Dau 30yrs Household & Agricultural Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness
William Sutherland Son 19yrs Fisherman b. Latheron, Caithness
Donald Bruce GSon 2yrs b. Latheron, Caithness

Now I realise that Janet (the wife) is too young to have had Angus, so I suspect the old man got married twice, so now all you have to do is check Scotland's People or the New Register House for Neil's death and it 'should' say who his parents were and who he was married to!!!

The IGI shows 2 marriages but they are submitted, so you'll need to check the official certs

Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain 17 Dec 1802 Latheron, Caithness
Neil Sutherland and Janet Campbell 29 Dec 1825 Latheron, Caithness

Are you feeling lucky??

Let me know how it goes, I am eager to know now, good luck :)

Jenny

P.S E-mailed this to you as well but it came back delayed, so thought I'd put it here as well  ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 21 July 07 12:45 BST (UK)
Couldn't put it down, typical of me  ::)

So I checked the IGI for the children of Neil Sutherland

This is what I got: Now bear in mind that they are all submitted entries NOT from OPR's so they all need to be checked on Scotland's People or New Register House. Also the first group I assume to be the children of Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain but only Neil's name is down as father as was the custom back then. I also realise that they married in 1802 so the first couple of kids could be someone else's entirely or more likely born out of wedlock.

George Sutherland chr 27 Jan 1801 Latheron ? died young
James Sutherland chr 3 Nov 1802 Latheron ? died young
Angus Sutherland chr 8 Oct 1803 Latheron
William Sutherland chr 8 Aug 1805 Latheron ? died young
Margaret Sutherland chr 2 Dec 1807 Latheron ?died young
Adam Sutherland c. 1808 (from grave below)
Margaret Sutherland chr 6 July 1810 Latheron
James Sutherland chr 4 Feb 1812 Latheron
Donald Sutherland chr 12 Sep 1813 Latheron ?died young
Hugh Sutherland chr 2 Aug 1814 Latheron ? died young
Ann Sutherland chr 1815 Latheron
Donald Sutherland chr 19 Sep 1816 Latheron
Mary Sutherland chr 25 Feb 1817 Latheron
Janet Sutherland chr 7 Jan 1819 Latheron
Alexander Sutherland chr 4 Apr 1822 Latheron ? died young
William Sutherland chr 22 Aug 1822 Latheron ?another man? Not sure this one fits in as the baptism is very close
Esther Sutherland chr 31 July 1824 Latheron

These I assume to be the children of Neil and his second wife Janet Campbell

Isabol Sutherland chr 7 July 1828 Latheron
Robert Sutherland chr 23 Feb 1830 Latheron Neil Sutherland Janet Campbell
George Sutherland b 12 Sep 1832 chr 24 Sep 1832 Latheron Neil & Janet Campbell   
Hugh Sutherland b 13 Mar 1836 chr 24 Mar 1836 Latheron Neil & Janet Campbell ?died young?
Alexander Sutherland b 27 Jan 1838 chr 6 Feb 1838 Latheron Neil & Janet Campbell
William Sutherland b 2 Sep 1840 chr 6 Sep 1840 Latheron Neil & Janet Campbell

Red ones are the ones in the 1841 census with their father and of course your Angus :)

Also found a grave in Latheron old cemetery:

Grave 214
Sacred to the memory of.
Adam Sutherland, boat carpenter, died at Dunbeath 12th July 1845 aged 37.
Erected by his affectionate father Neil Sutherland.
Also.
Amelia Sutherland died 29th December 1876 aged 53.
Husband Donald Sutherland, shoemaker of Knockally, died 5th May 1883 aged 68.

Blue ones are the one's I think are mentioned in this grave (but very tentative as there was no entry for Adam Sutherland at all)

I think the ones that have siblings named after them may have died young and I have put this next to their names, also for the youngest Hugh as he is not present in the 1841 census.

So now you have stacks of names to check in the records, you might even be able to get deaths for all the siblings (well the ones that lived past 1855 anyway!)

Good luck and let me know how you go

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 21 July 07 13:15 BST (UK)
Now Bryce, I also checked the IGI for Neil/Niel Sutherland births around 1780 because although 17 children to one couple is not unheard of I thought I'd better check if he was the only Neil Sutherland around at the time.

There are two (so some children may be to one or the other, so unfortunately it means you'll have to check deaths to be certain who belongs to who)

Neil Sutherland chr 1st or 6th Feb 1778 Latheron Father: John Sutherland
Niel Sutherland chr 26 May 1782 Latheron Father: William Sutherland

Both are submitted entries NOT OPR's so we'll have to wait and see what Neil's death certificate says hey  ::)

Jenny

P.S You've got me hooked now.....What better to do in dreich weather  ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Saturday 21 July 07 23:24 BST (UK)
:o :o :o

You've been busy! :P

Well it's all well and good, but I couldn't find the "correct" Neil/Niel Sutherland on ScotlandsPeople at all, so I assumed he died before 1855... even the census results I got were completely different to the ones you have there! :-\ It's too late at night to be searching through all this stuff right now, but mark my words I'll be back at this tomorrow! Once I finish work... and help my parents with stuff... and do other things... dammit. Soon! :D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 22 July 07 11:52 BST (UK)
You mean I've been bored, and this little challenge gave me something useful to do  ;D

Niel/Neil/Neal Sutherland should have died between 1861 and 1871 but might be best to wildcard the search and just search for N Sutherland as Scotland's People is notorious for showing exactly what you type and that only. Another way of getting our money so we have to do multiple searches!!

I also found this on google when I was mucking around with Neil Sutherland, which seems to suggest he died in 1865. But who knows how acurate this is or not.

On website: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~kaob/d121.htm

Neil SUTHERLAND(2167) was born in 1780. He died in 1865. Parents: William SUTHERLAND and Ann SUTHERLAND.
He was married to Janet CAMPBELL on 29 Dec 1825 in Latheron. (2168)

William SUTHERLAND(2172) was born about 1755 in Latheron.(2173) Parents: Donald SUTHERLAND and Margaret SUTHERLAND.
He was married to Ann SUTHERLAND. (2174) Children were: Neil SUTHERLAND , Esther SUTHERLAND, Marjorie SUTHERLAND, Amelia SUTHERLAND, Frances SUTHERLAND.

Donald SUTHERLAND(2129) was born on 4 Sep 1730 in bapt Watten. He died in 1774.
He was married to Margaret SUTHERLAND on 26 Feb 1759 in Latheron. (2130) Children were: William SUTHERLAND , Alexander SUTHERLAND, George SUTHERLAND.

Just for completeness I searched for a death for Neil Sutherland in 1865 on Scotland's People and one match comes up, it is the only match that comes up between 1861 and 1871 and it appears to be in Latheron, Caithness so it is looking hopeful..only wish I had some credits  ;)

I am eager to hear what you find, so post it here if you can :)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Sunday 22 July 07 22:16 BST (UK)
I've already viewed that N Sutherland's death certificate by the looks of things...

I probably dismissed it instantly since it only has Janet Campbell on as his wife; no mention of Janet Bain! :(

I've not got the time to look into this in depth right now (shattered), but maybe tomorrow night. One thing I'll say is that other than Janet and William, none of the other names you mentioned fits in with my family names. Not that that necessarily means anything of course!
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 23 July 07 17:31 BST (UK)
Hey Bryce,

Don't dismiss it so quickly, I had the exact same situation with a family in Latheron.

I had an Anne Nicoll parents John Nicoll and Jane Tait (on her death cert, and verified with census data). I had a marriage for John Nicoll and Jane Tait in 1840 in Latheron, which fit with their first child in 1841 and the 1841 census which showed mum, dad and child (and his sister) but no-one else. His death cert in 1865 showed his widow as Jane Tait, and his parents......so everything seemed to fit yes? Well it was only that I found a gravestone when I was up there last year for him and his wives Margaret Morrison (died 1839) and Jane Tait (died 1895)  ;)

So no mention of a first wife anywhere, not even on the OPR record for his second marriage  ::) To this day cannot find anything on her at all, no marriage to John Nicoll in the records and no children as far as I can tell. So it can and does happen, these disappearing wives. But you my dear have a lot more to go on.

Lets look at the proven facts:

Death cert for Angus Sutherland 1888 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)
Marriage cert for Esther Sutherland 1877 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)
Death cert for Esther Sutherland 1900 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)

So we can glean from this the they are siblings and that Neil and Janet were deceased by 1877.

So Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain were having children between 1803 and 1824 at least.

There are only 2 marriages around this time for Neil Sutherland these are:

Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain 17 Dec 1802 Latheron, Caithness
Neil Sutherland and Janet Campbell 29 Dec 1825 Latheron, Caithness

So that would fit with Janet Bain dying and Neil remarrying as he would have had young children to have looked after  ;)

So logically if you look at the OPR for the second marriage it 'should' say widower against Neil's name (but then remembering my little story it didn't for John Nicoll!)

As I gave you Esther Sutherland's census returns from 1841 you have more info to go on. Esther married her first husband William Bain between 1841 and 1851 so you have her with her 'parents' in 1841. This is the only census that fits for 'your' Esther Sutherland.

1841 census - Knockallie, Latheron, Caithness

Niel Sutherland 60yrs Fisherman born in county
Jannet Sutherland 35yrs born in county
Jannet Sutherland 20yrs born in county
Esther Sutherland 15yrs born in county
Isabella Sutherland 10yrs born in county
Robert Sutherland 8yrs born in county
George Sutherland 6yrs born in county
Alexander Sutherland 4yrs born in county
William Sutherland 1yr born in county

Esther is with her father and what seems to be her step mum Janet Campbell. We know from the death cert for Neil Sutherland in 1865 (the Neil that fits the census returns I gave you) that he was married to Janet Campbell (doesn't mean he wasn't married before this though) as my John Nicoll's death cert showed only his second wife too. The fact that there is an elder sister Jannet also there adds weight to the assumption that Neil was married twice as there are 2 children with him in 1841 that are born pre his marriage to Janet Campbell.

I think it would be a good idea to spend some time at New Register House to try and find deaths for the children in the 1841 census to see who they put down as their parents. Isabella down should say Janet Campbell as their mother and Esther up should say Janet Bain as their mother.

There is no guarantee that this is your family but I think that the evidence is leaning strongly towards it  ;D

Check the OPR's for the marriages and some deaths and see what you think ok

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 23 July 07 17:53 BST (UK)
Oh, just had a thought

Why not check the deaths for the grave I found??

Grave 214
Sacred to the memory of.
Adam Sutherland, boat carpenter, died at Dunbeath 12th July 1845 aged 37.
Erected by his affectionate father Neil Sutherland.
Also.
Amelia Sutherland died 29th December 1876 aged 53.
Husband Donald Sutherland, shoemaker of Knockally, died 5th May 1883 aged 68.

Unfortunately Adam died pre-registration but Donald and Amelia did not (not sure if Donald is also a child on Neil Sutherland as the grave does not state this but worth a try)

Also Janet Sutherland (daughter of Neil) is with him till 1861 so you should be able to find a death for her as she is post registration also.......and too old to be a daughter of Janet Campbell's  ;)

Good luck mate

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 23 July 07 18:34 BST (UK)
Last post for a while I promise  ;D

Had a look at Donald & Amelia's census returns and what do you know they have a son called Neil so it is looking possible that he is a son of Neil's too. He also lives in the same place in 1851

1841 - Melton, Caithness

Donald Sutherland M 25yrs Shoemaker b. Caithness
Emly Sutherland M 25yrs b. Caithness

1851 census - Balnabruich, Latheron, Caithness

Donald Sutherland Head M 36yrs Shoemaker b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Wife M 36yrs b. Edinburgh, Midlothian
Neil Sutherland Son 9yrs Scholar b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Adam Sutherland Son 5yrs b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Emlen Sutherland Dau 1yr b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness

1861 census - Knockalley, Latheron, Caithness

Donald Sutherland Head M 48yrs Shoemaker b. Dunnet, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Wife M 48yrs Shoemaker's wife b. Dunnet, Caithness
Neil Sutherland Son 18yrs Shoemaker (journeyman) b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Adam Sutherland Son 14yrs Scholar b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Dau 11yrs Shoemaker's dau b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Dau 8yrs Shoemaker's dau b. Dunbeath, Caithness

1871 census - Knockalley, Dunbeath Estate, Caithness

Donald Sutherland Head M 56yrs Shoemaker master b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Amelia Sutherland Wife M 56yrs Shoemaster's wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Ann Sutherland Serv 20yrs General Serv b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Donaldina Sutherland Dau 14yrs Servant domestic b. Dunbeath, Caithness

1881 census - Knockally, Dunbeath, Caithness

Donald Sutherland Head Wid 66yrs Shoemaker b. Dunbeath, Caithness

happy hunting  ;D

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Monday 23 July 07 19:36 BST (UK)
Not having much luck with ScotlandsPeople anyway! None of these people seemed to die. ::) I got Esther Sutherland's death certificate, but obviously you'd told me that information already. I view Neil/Janet Campbell's marriage on the OPR and nowhere does it mention he's a widower, so perhaps they were just lazy in Caithness. ;)

If I were to go to New Register House, would you... erm... help me? :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 23 July 07 22:49 BST (UK)
Of course I would  ;D

Do you want to go this week sometime? I am between jobs so now or never if you want my undivided attention  ;)

Thursday is bad but otherwise just let me know when you want to go and I'll come with, do you want to go for a full day or a half day?

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Monday 23 July 07 23:18 BST (UK)
Friday or Monday would be okay I think... what's better for you? Full day would possibly be more fruitful! I'd pay for you.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 11:03 BST (UK)
What a gentleman  ;D

Seeing it is already Tuesday, how about we plan for Friday (that is 27th). If this is your first time to NRH then yeah a full day would make more sense. We would need to meet there about 8:30ish to make sure we get a seat, is this ok?

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 11:07 BST (UK)
Yes it's my first time, and yes that should be fine! Excited now! ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 11:15 BST (UK)
Do you think you could meet me at Waverley Train Station at 8am? That's when my train arrives, and I'm vaguely aware of where Register House is in relation to it.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 11:25 BST (UK)
Sounds good, I'll wait at the top of the Waverley Steps, you've got my mobile in case you can't find me, and NRH is really close to the train station, so we'll be there with heaps of time  ;)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 11:33 BST (UK)
W00t!

On a semi-related note, I'm going up to Caithness next month for a holiday, and even though I'm with my parents and my girlfriend I'm planning on visiting a few cemeteries, of course. ;) Is there any way of finding out where relations are buried other than looking at every single grave? :P I assume not, and in which case, is there a list of cemeteries somewhere?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 11:45 BST (UK)
There is a link for graves in Latheron: http://www.graven-images.org.uk/

SKS has transcribed them all and put pictures of the internet and all, that is how I found your Angus Sutherland he is in Latheron Old Cemetery (which is now the Clan Gunn Museum)

Grave 226
In memory of.
Angus Sutherland died at Badbea 31st October 1888 aged 85.
Wife Janet Gow died 8th November 1841 aged 28.
Erected by his son William.

You might have to e-mail the chappy who did it to figure out where grave 226 is in the cemetery as it is quite....how should I say it......overcrowded  ;)

Grave 214 was:
Sacred to the memory of.
Adam Sutherland, boat carpenter, died at Dunbeath 12th July 1845 aged 37.
Erected by his affectionate father Neil Sutherland.
Also.
Amelia Sutherland died 29th December 1876 aged 53.
Husband Donald Sutherland, shoemaker of Knockally, died 5th May 1883 aged 68.

So another rellie, otherwise the site has Latheron New Cemetery and Clyth Cemetery too, be good to have a look through them before you go.

Jenny

P.S There are burial grounds at Berriedale (New and Old), Old is very overgrown, a beautiful place to visit but hard to find anyone, and new might be a bit new for your folks, having said that it is where I found my John Nicoll (he has a table grave there) as I learnt 'New' wasn't just because they filled up the old cemetery it was for 'new' settlers in town (aka not locals).

PPS You MUST visit Badbea Clearance Village near Berriedale on the cliffs as your family lived there, there is a memorial stone and some ruins, but is amazingly moving.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 11:54 BST (UK)
Think there is a cemetery at Dunbeath too (which would be for Knockally, Balnabruich, etc)

but found this one the web:

"There used to be a cemetery desides it as the name of the adjacent farm - Ballachly - indicates. Some time after 1860 a cloudburst caused a wall of water to come down the Houstry Burn and washed out a number of coffins from the cemetery. Afterwards the farmer ploughed up the land of the cemetery bringing ill luck on himself and his family. The exact site is not clear today."

But there is a new one, and if Neil Sutherland died in 1865 it may be post this.

There is also a link to the Caithness Memorial Inscriptions (pre 1855)

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~mwi/caithnes.txt

Which might help  :)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:05 BST (UK)
Cheers!

I'm definitely planning on going to Badbea, especially as I've just read a book about a Sutherland family moving to New Zealand in the 1840s from there. My parents went there last year I think and really want me to go, and I will. ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:16 BST (UK)
You lucky thing, you are going to have a fabulous time. Badbea is shocking and amazing at the same time, it made me cry, and I didn't even have direct family that actually lived there like you do...but it really shows the Scottish Spirit.

See you Friday Bryce

Jenny

PS either bring a laptop or heaps of loose paper to NRH and all the family info you can ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:32 BST (UK)
Would it be better to book NRH to guarantee a place? Also apparently there are works on the train line between here and Edinburgh so I'll need to make sure I can definitely make it there in time! I'll find out ASAP.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:33 BST (UK)
Also should I bring a packed lunch? ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:41 BST (UK)
You can bring a packed lunch if you want, but I usually pop out to Burger King for a quick bite and run back in (don't want to waste any time now)  ;D

If the train is going to be a problem do you want to drive to Morningside and leave your car there (free parking) and we can catch the bus in together?

You can ring NRH and see if there are places left to book but I am assuming they are all booked out (they usually are this close to the date), I went last week and got in at 1pm for a half day and there were heaps of spaces left, so I don't think it will be a problem, they leave a stack of places for people to just turn up on the day. If you do book tho can you book places that we can use a laptop at (preferrably the South Search Room)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:45 BST (UK)
I'm getting the train because my dad's using the car. ::)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:52 BST (UK)
My thursday thing just got changed to Wednesday so is Thursday better?? Otherwise I'll wait to hear what you say about the train, but really only one of us needs to be there early to get in the line :)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:55 BST (UK)
I work on Thursdays. :( Not sure about the train yet, but it looks like I need to get a train, then a bus, then a train, so... erm... grrr. >:(
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 13:01 BST (UK)
Typical, let me know what you want me to do. That is wait at Waverley, or get in the line, or what?

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 13:07 BST (UK)
Or go on Monday instead, as it's kind of looking to be. :-\ Would that be okay if I can't get the train?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 13:14 BST (UK)
Depends entirely if I have work by then or not, I am hoping to be working then but who knows  ::)

Is the train really that mucked up? I thought they only did engineering stuff of the weekends?

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 13:16 BST (UK)
Between Inverkeithing and Edinburgh works have been on the go since Monday and are meant to finish on Friday... but when on Friday nowhere specifies. ::) I'll make a phone call if I have to.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 13:19 BST (UK)
Wouldn't the train, bus, train thing work anyway? Or will it take you too long?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 13:44 BST (UK)
That's what I'm unsure about... checking now.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 14:11 BST (UK)
It looks like it's actually the replacement bus service that is meant to arrive in Edinburgh at 8am, but I'm dubious it'd manage that in the rush hour! I suppose I don't really have an alternative, though, and I could be proved wrong. :) I say we go for it; a little adventure, in a way. :D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 14:18 BST (UK)
That sounds fine to me, even if the bus is late NRH doesn't open until 9am so I am sure we would make it  ;)

Just text me when you get close and I'll make sure I am at the Waverley steps to meet you

See you Friday  ;D

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 15:32 BST (UK)
If all else fails we'll just go to that place off the Grassmarket. :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 15:39 BST (UK)
What..... the Castle??  ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 16:20 BST (UK)
That's nowhere near the Grassmarket! :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 20:10 BST (UK)
Yeah it is! Where then?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 20:45 BST (UK)
Apparently there's a Scottish Genealogy Society place on the street above the Grassmarket? ???
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 20:48 BST (UK)
Oh, yeah I have been there  ;D

it's on Victoria Terrace

Sorry brain a bit mushy  ::)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 21:25 BST (UK)
Yeah I thought it was you who told me about it in the first place. :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 24 July 07 21:46 BST (UK)
Yeah it probably was, what you expect me to remember everything that I have said! Golly  ::)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 24 July 07 21:54 BST (UK)
No, but I expected you to remember a place that deals with genealogy, being the obsessive you are. :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 25 July 07 10:47 BST (UK)
Takes one to know one my boy  :P

Besides you'll appreciate my obsessiveness on Friday!
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Thursday 26 July 07 13:52 BST (UK)
I'm not as obsessed as you until I have 11,000 people on my tree. :P I'm sure I will appreciate it very very much. :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Thursday 26 July 07 14:31 BST (UK)
12014.......and counting  ;D

See you in the morning
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Thursday 26 July 07 21:51 BST (UK)
Looks like I'm getting the bus, I've never got the bus to Edinburgh before so I don't know where the station is in relation to Waverley or New Register House...

Help. :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Friday 27 July 07 09:06 BST (UK)
I haven't read the whole thread, but maybe this might be of some interest -

http://www.caithness.org/atoz/badbea/index.htm

James.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 27 July 07 19:46 BST (UK)
Thanks for the info James  ;)

And Bryce if you look really closely at the 4th image of the Badbea Memorial Inscription, you might see "Angus Sutherland, Weaver" who I do believe is your ggg grandfather  ;D

You'll have to have a closer look when you visit!

Jenny

P.S Hope you had fun at NRH today and I'll e-mail all the info like I promised as soon as I sort it all out!
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 17:21 BST (UK)
Phew, took a while to sort out, and two weeks later I've discovered a bit of a conundrum!

Could just be me being silly and not noticing something, or perhaps something written down incorrectly (by me or on the original record).

Ann Sutherland, daughter of Niel Sutherland and Janet Campbell. We couldn't find her birth/baptizm in the OPRs. Remember she married Charles Mackay, and had at least 4 children? The fact she married Charles in 1839 should have rang some alarm bells, but no unfortunately they didn't. Assuming Niel's first wife, Janet Bain, died c.1824, and Ann Sutherland was born c.1825, she'd have been 14 when she got married, and that seems a little odd! However, on her death certificate it said she was 89 when she died, in 1905. That means she was born c.1816!

Here's my theory:
The informant of Ann Sutherland's death was her daughter, Margaret Robertson. When asked who Ann's parents were, she probably only knew Janet Campbell, since Janet Bain died 10-15 years before Margaret was born. So she probably thought her granny was Janet Campbell, bless her. Just means I've got to change my tree a bit now. :P Does this sound like it was the case?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 17:30 BST (UK)
familysearch.org has an Ann Sutherland born 1815 in Latheron, father Niel Sutherland, no mother, just like the rest of his children. ::)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 19:12 BST (UK)
Hey Bryce,

Yep I agree completely, she is the daughter of Janet Bain and Neil Sutherland, with all your interesting family (aka Sutherland) connections up there it is a wonder that anyone knew who they were and weren't related to  :P

Have you got it all sorted then?

Jenny

PS When do you head up north?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 19:43 BST (UK)
Just odd I can't find births and deaths for most of them, despite a lot being on familysearch. ::)

I leave on Monday morning. :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Tuesday 07 August 07 19:47 BST (UK)
So who decreed that everything would be recorded/registered? :)

You headed all the way north?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 19:51 BST (UK)
My folks up there never recorded a thing  ;D

Which deaths can't you find Bryce?

Oh, and good luck on your trip, take stacks of pictures especially around Latheron/Berriedale  ;)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 19:54 BST (UK)
If I remember rightly we found death certs or graves for at least 8 of the 20 or so possible children  ::)

And don't forget they may have emigrated to Australia, NZ or America/Canada as a lot did

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 19:57 BST (UK)
You headed all the way north?
Yep! But once I've visited as many graveyards in the Latheron area as I can. :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 19:58 BST (UK)
If I remember rightly we found death certs or graves for at least 8 of the 20 or so possible children  ::)
There are bound to be more and we couldn't find births in NRH...

And don't forget they may have emigrated to Australia, NZ or America/Canada as a lot did
This is true.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:04 BST (UK)
We found heaps of baptisms!! Way more than any family I have up there my boy  ;)

As for deaths we know we missed William cause he was in Glasgow from his grave, and I am sure we missed others because we mainly focused our efforts on Caithness, and don't forget heaps of the young kids deaths will be pre-registration.

Really you don't know how lucky you are, I don't have a single marked grave up there, but we have found at least 3 for your lot!

Ungrateful!  ;D

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:06 BST (UK)
You headed all the way north?
Yep! But once I've visited as many graveyards in the Latheron area as I can. :P

Perhaps we might be able to meet up?  I'm not far from Latheron.  Laidhey's close enough for a cuppa.
http://www.caithness.org/community/museums/laidhay/index.htm

James.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:10 BST (UK)
Sorry, just read that back and I sound a little harsh... but what fun would it all be if there were not little challenges  ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:35 BST (UK)
Sorry, just read that back and I sound a little harsh... but what fun would it all be if there were not little challenges  ;)
Sorry I didn't mean to appear ungrateful. :-[ I'm very grateful to you and everyone else on this site who has helped me; I was merely trying to convey my frustration and determination but it kind of backfired. :(
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:46 BST (UK)
Perhaps we might be able to meet up?  I'm not far from Latheron.  Laidhey's close enough for a cuppa.
http://www.caithness.org/community/museums/laidhay/index.htm
If we have time, sure. Is Laidhey close to Dunbeath? We'll be going there.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:47 BST (UK)
Honey I'm not upset, you just don't know how lucky you are  :-*
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:50 BST (UK)
Oh, and Laidhey looks really interesting I didn't get to it while I was up there, but it gives an insight to what crofting must have been like. Will just have to go back one day  ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:51 BST (UK)
Honey I'm not upset, you just don't know how lucky you are  :-*
Will I say something really naff right now or just leave you in the suspense I've just created? :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:52 BST (UK)
Oh, and Laidhey looks really interesting I didn't get to it while I was up there, but it gives an insight to what crofting must have been like. Will just have to go back one day  ;)
Let me know when you're going back and we'll make a trip of it. ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:55 BST (UK)
Oh, and Laidhey looks really interesting I didn't get to it while I was up there, but it gives an insight to what crofting must have been like. Will just have to go back one day ;)
Let me know when you're going back and we'll make a trip of it. ;)

Who knows when I'll get back up there, might be heading back to Oz in a few months  :'(

Will miss Scotland terribly, but I am sure I will be back one day and I'll definately look you up.....so be nice  ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Tuesday 07 August 07 20:58 BST (UK)
Perhaps we might be able to meet up?  I'm not far from Latheron.  Laidhey's close enough for a cuppa.
http://www.caithness.org/community/museums/laidhay/index.htm
If we have time, sure. Is Laidhey close to Dunbeath? We'll be going there.

Just minutes away.  Thurso is only a half hour, so is Wick.  Not too many roses to stop and sniff on the way.

James.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:00 BST (UK)
Will miss Scotland terribly, but I am sure I will be back one day and I'll definately look you up.....so be nice  ;)
I was just gonna say that I'm very lucky to have had you sitting next to me helping me out in New Register House, and being there to share my excitement. :-[ I might be going to Oz next year so I might look you up first. :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:01 BST (UK)
Just minutes away.  Thurso is only a half hour, so is Wick.  Not too many roses to stop and sniff on the way.
Awesome, to PM (or some kind of chat client perhaps?) to exchange details?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:04 BST (UK)
Ah, a true gentleman  ;D

You know where to find me if you do pop over to Oz.

And James, I reckon there are heaps of roses' to sniff I spent ages between Wick and Helmsdale on my last trip up......thanks to the pearls of wisdom in the Lonely Planet Guide I must admit! You just have to dig a little  ;D

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:07 BST (UK)
Ah, a true gentleman  ;D

You know where to find me if you do pop over to Oz.

And James, I reckon there are heaps of roses' to sniff I spent ages between Wick and Helmsdale on my last trip up......thanks to the pearls of wisdom in the Lonely Planet Guide I must admit! You just have to dig a little  ;D

Jenny

Remember - I live up here - I find they lose their 'scent' after a bit.
But yes, there's more to see really. Worth coming up.  Can you not manage a quick trip?
James.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:09 BST (UK)
Maybe.....am trying to save tho as I am off to Iceland in October  ::)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:11 BST (UK)
Maybe.....am trying to save tho as I am off to Iceland in October  ::)
Ooh get you with the travel. ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:12 BST (UK)
Hey Buddy I might only be over here once.....and it is a long flight from Australia  ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:15 BST (UK)
Maybe.....am trying to save tho as I am off to Iceland in October  ::)

I believe you can travel there, from here and maybe include Faroes.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:15 BST (UK)
And here's me, never left the country! Well once, but I stayed in the hotel for most of the time. :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:17 BST (UK)
Hey Buddy I might only be over here once.....and it is a long flight from Australia  ;D

Nah! What's 24 hours out of your life?  You're young enough ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:19 BST (UK)
True enough Bryce!

James, if only you knew me......my arm is easily twisted when it comes to travel  ;D ....but alas it is prebooked and my brother is coming over from Oz to join me...so not this time I am afraid  ;)

Anyways I'll leave you boys to make plans, have a great trip and I expect to see pictures of anything interesting.

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:21 BST (UK)
Oh, Bryce you better get in practice at sitting in small uncomfortable seats for long periods before you head to Oz.....don't want any complaining when you get there!  :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Tuesday 07 August 07 21:40 BST (UK)
Oh, Bryce you better get in practice at sitting in small uncomfortable seats for long periods before you head to Oz.....don't want any complaining when you get there!  :P

Aw come on, he won't be in the wee room all the time - there will be other passengers wanting in, and besides - you can't watch inflight movies in there ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 22:37 BST (UK)
Oh, Bryce you better get in practice at sitting in small uncomfortable seats for long periods before you head to Oz.....don't want any complaining when you get there!  :P
I went to school didn't I? ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 07 August 07 22:39 BST (UK)
Aw come on, he won't be in the wee room all the time - there will be other passengers wanting in, and besides - you can't watch inflight movies in there ;D
;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 08 August 07 10:40 BST (UK)
Really you boys are incorrigible  ;D

Ah, Bryce.....much to learn you have (feeling distinctly Yoda-ish  ;) ) but worth it it is!

And James......am I sensing you have travelled to my fair country.....or spent a lot of time in airoplane loos!  :P

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Wednesday 08 August 07 10:53 BST (UK)
Got to Queensland about 300 years ago (or was that 30? the years just keep on passing by ....).
Travelled Garuda - ("or spent a lot of time in airoplane loos")maybe it was the food?
No - was a good flight, good visit.
Oz is ok.  :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 08 August 07 11:03 BST (UK)
Glad you approve! At least you went to the best bit.....not that I am biased  ;)

Have never tried Garuda.....favs are Singapore Airlines and Qantas.....no worries with the food there.

Still not looking forward to the flight, but it is strange, not matter the discomfort it goes straight from your brain when you get off the plane, and strangely enough you seem to want to do it all over again  ::)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Wednesday 08 August 07 11:12 BST (UK)
It's much the same with this 'game' I feel - flying long trips/long drawn out research - hard at the time but when its done, you wonder what the fuss was about.

Hope Bryce is well 'genned up' on his Sutherlands now.

James.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 08 August 07 11:25 BST (UK)
It's much the same with this 'game' I feel - flying long trips/long drawn out research - hard at the time but when its done, you wonder what the fuss was about.

Hope Bryce is well 'genned up' on his Sutherlands now.

James.

I completely agree!

And yeah, Bryce you got enough Sutherlands up there to keep you busy for a while I reckon  :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Wednesday 08 August 07 17:21 BST (UK)
Funny you should say that; someone was in my work earlier today with the surname Sutherland so obviously I congratulated them on having the best surname in the world ( ;) ), and she said, "There aren't many around, are there?" She can't have been to Caithness!!
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 08 August 07 17:51 BST (UK)
Definately not!
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Wednesday 08 August 07 21:03 BST (UK)
Have been into Thurso Cemetery this evening - have a couple of Sutherland pics yet to be downloaded from camera. They will be available on 'the other forum' sometime tonight I hope.

James.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Tricia MORE on Wednesday 08 August 07 22:50 BST (UK)
Just thought I would add to Sutherlands
Mine are from WATTEN, CAITHNESS  from 1600s
 :)
Tricia
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: malbec on Thursday 09 August 07 02:51 BST (UK)
I have some Caithness Sutherlands in my tree too, although still a bit "tentative".
 



I cannont find a death record for her anywhere :-\, and haven't properly researched John yet.

Bec

Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Tricia MORE on Thursday 09 August 07 11:43 BST (UK)
Margaret was in Bank Row in 1871
GREEN   Margaret      Head   W   F   76   Feuar   CAI   Canisbay
GREEN   Robert      Son   U   M   38   Boat Carpenter    Wick
GREEN   Walter      Grnson   U   M   8   Scholar    Wick   
SINCLAIR   Hellen      Grndaur   U   F   21   Scholar   MOR   Elgin

in 1881 Robert and young Walter are lodgers.

I noted 1861 showed a Walter b c 1840 - can't find him in Wick  1871 but think in Leith 1881 1891
in 1871 a boatbuilder  with brother William and family in Berwick England.
have data for those.

Tricia
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: malbec on Saturday 11 August 07 11:10 BST (UK)
One thing I forgot to mention was that the date of John Sutherland and Isobel Sinclairs marriage was given as 20.2.1792 in Canisbay.  Which would make her very young (by todays standards!) as her birth, assuming it's the same Isobel, is given as 1.4.1777.  Is this likely??

Bec
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Saturday 11 August 07 11:27 BST (UK)
'Baby on the way'? could be a reason.  I'm not sure 15 (is my arithmetic right?) unusual - but maybe that depends on the social standing of the family concerned.

James.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Kin-getter on Sunday 12 August 07 06:00 BST (UK)
And if you want some more Sutherlands - Dunbeath -

here you go: http://www.forum.familyhistory.uk.com/showthread.php?t=2980
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: peterd500 on Wednesday 05 September 07 09:30 BST (UK)
Margaret SUTHERLAND the wife of Walter GREEN was the daughter of John SUTHERLAND & Isabella SINCLAIR who was the daughter of Robert SINCLAIR & Helen BREMNER.

Robert SINCLAIR was the brother of my gggg-grandfather James SINCLAIR the chamberlain (at Thrumster House).  They had plenty of siblings and their father was Donald SINCLAIR the sailor whose father was David SINCLAIR of Broynach whose descendants were controversially passed over for the Earldom of Caithness in 1771 and 1788.

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Peter Sinclair DILLON
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Tricia MORE on Wednesday 05 September 07 10:46 BST (UK)
Hi Peter, Bec and James.
Peter we have exchanged re the possible David Sinclair/Margaret MORE or MacKay relation and you kindly sent me data.  TOPIC http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,187033.0.html
I was going to email Bec on another group  as I am sure our Cormack and MacKenzie family will relate somewhere .
Now though -  your last message may link us all.
I have a Margaret MORE(Moir Moor) b 1703 in Thurso - could she be the one  with David Sinclair!!
Tricia
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: peterd500 on Wednesday 05 September 07 11:33 BST (UK)
Hi Tricia

Yes I knew you would notice me!  :)

Actually the information regarding the connection from SINCLAIR to GREEN are in the document I sent you of the letters to the NORTHERN ENSIGN by Thomas SINCLAIR.  Ellen GREEN (ie Helen GREEN) was one of his deponents and it was Ellen who spelled out the connection.

Margaret MORE or MACKAY is supposed to have married 21 Oct 1744 to David SINCLAIR the son of David SINCLAIR of Broynach if that is any help.  If that date is correct then it implies that for your Margaret to be the same person she would be about 41 at marriage which is getting pretty old to start a family.  Then again I proved I wasn't firing blanks when my wife and I had our daughter when we were 41 and 44 respectively!

Peter
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: peterd500 on Wednesday 05 September 07 11:40 BST (UK)
Isabella SINCLAIR & John SUTHERAAND eloped when they married.

The story is in the letters by Thomas SINCLAIR
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: peterd500 on Wednesday 05 September 07 15:32 BST (UK)
This is the relevant section of one of the letters to which I referred.
~~~~~~~~----

NORTHERN ENSIGN - Tuesday 7th July 1891 - page 6, columns a, b

THE BROYNACHS AND THE EARLDOM OF CAITHNESS.

EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF THE CLAIM OF JAMES SINCLAIR, MID CLYTH.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE NORTHERN ENSIGN.

[ I chopped out a large section here ]

".....Isabella Green (Mrs George Sinclair), Halkirk, aged 66 upwards, depones that she is a daughter of the deceased Walter Green, Wick, and Margaret Sutherland ; that Margaret Sutherland, her mother, was daughter of Isabella Sinclair, whose father was Robert Sinclair, merchant. Wick, younger brother to James, the chamberlain at Thrumster House ; that the said Robert Sinclair, her great-grandfather, was born in Cairnquoy, a farm on the Thrumster estate, situated near Yarrows; that Robert Sinclair's only son was a soldier and died abroad, and she remembers his gaiters, and a malacca cane with silver top and tassel, and some other things belonging to him, which were sent home to John O' Groats to his sister Isabella (Mrs John Sutherland), by his widow, but that deponent does not know anything about his having a family or not, and that she thinks his name was Robert Sinclair.   Depones that his father, Robert Sinclair, merchant and burgess, Wick, was married a second time, and that it was the second wife's son who was drowned at sea, being in the navy.  Depones that she remembers her grandmother, Isabella Sinclair, the merchant's daughter, as a fine-looking woman, very proud-spirited, and even in old age and poverty showing the traces of having been well brought up; that Isabella was preparing to go to Edinburgh to be educated when her father died, she being then a young girl, and her higher education was thus stopped ; that the circumstances of her marriage to John Sutherland, Canisbay, were that a large vessel had come ashore at Staxigoe, and the houses of Wick being thrown open to the ship-wrecked, the captain was received by the merchant-burgess, with whose daughter, Isabella Sinclair, he fell in love, and to whom he proposed marriage ; that John Sutherland, her accepted sweetheart, heard of this, and he and his sister immediately journeyed from John O'Groats, contrived to have an interview with Isabella, who by the help of a servant left home a runaway or in elopement that night, and was married in Canisbay quam primum to John Sutherland (landlord afterwards of an inn there); that a John Sutherland, an aged man now in Thurso, is their youngest son; and that deponent was much with her grandmother, Isabella Sinclair, in Canisbay, for whose memory she has great respect, regretting she has not more to tell, when by her opportunities she might have had so much.—June 30th, 1890.

Ellen Green (Mrs Donald Bain), widow, sister of Mrs George Sinclair, Halkirk, and aged 70 upwards, depones that she has lived with her grandfather and grandmother at John O'Groats, John Sutherland and Isabella, the only daughter of Robert Sinclair, merchant-burgess of Wick; and further depones that Robert's shop was on the site in the High Street, now occupied by the offices of the Wick parochial board.

This last item of knowledge has appeared before in one of the Broynach letters to the Northern Ensign when discussing this younger son of Donald the Sailor, Donald being the second and last son of the Hon. David Sinclair of Broynach by his marriage in 1700 to Janet Ewen. The exact text of Robert's burgess-ticket, which is now in the possession of his grandson, Robert Green, Wick, brother of Mrs Donald Bain and Mrs George Sinclair, is as follows, provisions being always a portion of his trading :-—

"At Wick, 31st January, 1777, in presence of James Sinclair of Harpsdale, provost of the burgh of Wick, James Miller and John Russell, baillies thereof, and remanent council of the same.  The said day, Robert Sinclair, baker in Wick, was created, received, and admitted burgess and guild-brother of the said burgh, after taking the ordinary oaths thereto belonging, and being solemnly sworn in the common form of burgesses at their admission, with full power to him to haunt, use, and exercise all the liberties and privileges pertaining, or known to pertain, to any burgess or guild-brother in like cases.  In witness whereof, these presents are extracted, by advice of above, and signed by the clerk of court, place, date, and year before said.  ALEX. RUSSELL, clerk of court."  The endorsation of the parchment is " Burgess Act: the Burgh of Wick in favour of Robert Sinclair."  By my personal examination of it, through its possessor's politeness, its size is 6 1/4 inches by 3 3/4, written broad-wise.  To the middle is attached a dark green silk ribbon, 7 inches by l 1/4, in two folds, at the end of which was the wax seal of Wick burgh.  Further details, local evidence, and register records have to be given in this particular section of substantiating the claim of James Sinclair, Mid-Clyth, to be Earl of Caithness.----Yours, &c.,

THOMAS SINCLAIR
Falmouth, July, 1891. "


Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Tricia MORE on Wednesday 05 September 07 17:45 BST (UK)
Thanks Peter
I also have a Margaret More b 1731.  ???  - too young I guess.
Then again maybe the MORE or MACKAY bit means a previously married lady  or an illeg birth to a MORE and MACKAY.   I have a few MORE MACKAY marriages!
Jury is out on this one.
Tricia
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Thursday 15 January 09 21:40 GMT (UK)
Apologies for bumping this topic again but I'm even more frustrated than I was before! My problem is there's a very similar family to mine just along the road, and they have the cheek to steal my family's names. :P

I'm descended from Neil Sutherland (1782-1865), who was born in Knockally. His parents, according to his death certificate, were William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland (née Sutherland). I went to New Register House with our very own JenClark a couple of years back, and she found all these death certificates of people whose parents were William and Ann Sutherland! "Great!", thought I. It was even better when I traveled to Dunbeath and there they gave me a family tree with even more descendants of William and Ann, with the bonus of having W&A's parents!!

The fact W&A were from Mulbuie, not five miles up the road from Knockally, didn't really bother me. I mean, how many William and Ann Sutherlands could there be in such a small area? How many, indeed...

When searching for more descendants of the couple, I received a somewhat rude email from one, saying that they had been working on their tree for 30 years blah blah blah and had never come across a Neil before. So I must be wrong.

Well, maybe I was. But how do I prove or disprove it?? That is the question I put to you. How do I differentiate the two families? Are there other families with Williams and Anns as the head??

If any of you feel generous and would help with my digging, feel free. To that end, here are just some of the children of "William and Ann Sutherland" I have found (some as newly as today when I was at NRH):

Adam Sutherland d 26 May 1855 in Knockally. Sounds promising! He was born in Berriedale, according to his death cert, and he was 85 when he died, making his birth date c1770. He had at least six children, and they are all "my" family names (Angus, Neil, William etc).

Robert Sutherland d 1860 at Houstry, Dunbeath. Informant, Donald Sutherland, son. The "Mulbuie" Sutherlands feaure the name Donald a lot. He was 83, so a death date of c1777.

Margaret Sutherland d 4 Feb 1855 at Balnabruich age 74. Widow of Alexander Sutherland. Again, her children's names are "my" family's names. However, seeing her circa birth date as 1781, it's quite close to the Margaret Sutherland on the tree I was given at Dunbeath (next one).

Margaret Sutherland bap 10 Jan 1786 at Golsary. No more information unfortunately.

Then there's Margaret Gunn (née Sutherland) d 23 May 1863 at Banniskirk age 83, whose circa birth date would be 1780.

My Neil Sutherland (who is a definite!) was born 1782 in Rhinsay and is in every census record in Knockally. He had at least 7 children with his first wife (Angus, Adam, Ann, Donald, Mary, Janet and Esther). He had at least 6 children with his second wife (Isabella, Robert, George, Hugh, Alexander, William).

ANd now for the "Mulbuie" Sutherlands in full.

Donald Sutherland (tacksman of Blackness, Midclyth b 1720) m Margaret Sutherland (d 1807, Mulbuie, Houstry, Dunbeath), had eight children:

Helen (b1741)
James (b1745)
Donald (b1754)
John (b1755)
Alexander (b1758)
George (b1766)
Elizabeth (b 17??)
William (b 17??)

William m Ann Sutherland and had:

Donald (b1784)
Margaret (b1786)
Kathrine (b1788)
Esther (doesn't say on the tree, but I found an Esther who d 1855, born c1783)
Jean (b1789)
Helen (b1792)
Ann (b1794)
Elizabeth (b1796)
William (b1798)
Amelia (b1803)

If we add those children to the ones I've found, we've got potentially 16 children. Poor Ann! Who's to say the tree I got at Dunbeath is right anyway? They could have done what I did at first and went, "Oh a child of William and Ann! It must be the same family!" ;)

Err yeah, long post, sorry. Please help. :(
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 16 January 09 08:29 GMT (UK)
Hey Bryce...long time no chat  ;D

Bet you are just loving that Sutherland surname now hey!!

How frustrating, I am not sure how much help I can be in Oz mate, unfortunately William and Ann are very common names and it is not at all a surprise that there may be 1, 2 or 3 families having kids around the same time in the same area.....unfortunately our Scottish families weren't the most inventive when it came to names  ::)

But perhaps this can be used to our advantage, remember the Scottish naming pattern (hopefully your families tried to follow this Highland tradition)

First son - father's father
Second son - mother's father
First daughter - mother's mother
Second Daughter - father's mother

So if we look at the famly of William & Ann Sutherland from 'Mulbuie' you have:

Esther (1783) - mother's mother
Donald (b1784) - father's father
Margaret (b1786) - father's mother
Kathrine (b1788)
Jean (b1789)
Helen (b1792)
Ann (b1794)
Elizabeth (b1796)
William (b1798) - mother's father
Amelia (b1803)

So it seems from this tree that William Sutherland's parents were Donald and Margaret (as per the tree) and Ann Sutherland's parents are William & Esther.

Refresh my memory and pop down all the kids we found to William and Ann Sutherland in chronological order with birth places if you have them and we'll see what we come up with  ;)

Jen
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Sunday 18 January 09 22:44 GMT (UK)
Adam Sutherland born c1770, d 26 May 1855 in Knockally (IGI possible: Christening: 09 APR 1774 Latheron)

Robert Sutherland born c1777, d 1860 at Houstry, Dunbeath (IGI possible: Christening: 27 APR 1777 or 18 AUG 1777 Latheron)

Margaret Sutherland born c1781, d 4 Feb 1855 at Balnabruich (IGI possible: Christened: 01 AUG 1779 Latheron)

Margaret Sutherland bap 10 Jan 1786 at Golsary.

Margaret Sutherland (married ? Gunn) born c1780, d 23 May 1863 (IGI possible: Christening: 01 AUG 1779 Latheron)

Neil Sutherland b1782 in Rhinsay, d 1865, Knockally.

Esther Sutherland, b c1783

Donald Sutherland, b1784 (IGI possible: Christening: 13 JUN 1784 or 26 AUG 1784 or 31 DEC 1784 Latheron)

Margaret Sutherland, b1786 (IGI possible: Christening: 01 JAN 1786 or 22 MAY 1786 Latheron)

Kathrine Sutherland, b1788 (IGI possible: Christening: 18 MAY 1788 Latheron)

Jean Sutherland, b1789 (IGI possible: Christening: 18 JUL 1789 or 29 NOV 1789 Latheron)

Helen Sutherland, b1792 (IGI possible: Christening: 01 APR 1792 Latheron)

Ann Sutherland, b1794 (IGI possible: Christening: 22 AUG 1794 Latheron)

Elizabeth Sutherland, b1796 (IGI possible: Christening: 14 MAY 1796 Latheron)

William, b1798 (IGI possible: Christening: 03 FEB 1798 or 19 APR 1798 Latheron)

Emelia Sutherland b 1801, Upper Smerlie, m John Cormack, d 1883.

I'm not sure if Esther is one of "my" William and Ann's children, but Neil has a child called Esther, and it's not all that common up there.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 19 January 09 10:10 GMT (UK)
Hey Bryce, well that is a few Sutherlands!!!!

At first glance it looks to me like two different families, or even three, as although there are not too many duplicate names there are too many Margaret's  ::)

You have:

Margaret born c 1780 (d. 1863) Parents William Sutherland, Ann Sutherland
Margaret born c 1781 (d. 1855) Parents William Sutherland, Ann Sutherland
Margaret born c 1786 - no death recorded (you have 2 dated 1786 so I am assuming they are the same person)

If it was the one couple why would they name two living daughter's Margaret? If it is two families why would there be a third Margaret...as it appears that Margaret 1 & 2 lived to adulthood?? I am assuming that none of these Margaret's have parish baptisms to check?? As they may give more clues, i.e Margaret daughter of William of............. It may even give occupations, though I assume they would all be crofters, or farmers?

So these are the children attributed to William and Ann Sutherland of 'Mulbuie'

Esther (1783) - mother's mother ----- not sure where she fits yet  :-\
Donald (b1784) - father's father
Margaret (b1786) - father's mother
Kathrine (b1788)
Jean (b1789)
Helen (b1792)
Ann (b1794)
Elizabeth (b1796)
William (b1798) - mother's father
Amelia (b1803)

So that leaves us:

Adam (b1770) - father's father
Robert (b1777) - mother's father
Margaret (b1781) - father's mother
Neil (b 1782)
Esther (b 1783) ----- I am adding her here as you think she may be your family due to the name - mother's mother

That would make your family:

Adam Sutherland and wife Margaret = son William Sutherland
Robert Sutherland and wife Esther = daughter Ann Sutherland

Does this fit any baptisms? Or do we have possible marriages for William Sutherland's and Ann Sutherland's to see if there are two or even three??

I'll see if I can dig anything up  ::)

Jen

Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Monday 19 January 09 21:53 GMT (UK)
Does this fit any baptisms? Or do we have possible marriages for William Sutherland's and Ann Sutherland's to see if there are two or even three??
Of course not, that would be far too easy! Nothing on IGI anyway. I'm going back to NRH on Thursday with any luck...
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 20 January 09 10:00 GMT (UK)
Yeah I couldn't see anything on the IGI either, but the coverage is relatively sparse. I think the key will be to find marriages for William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland......if they exist  ::)

Did both the deaths for Margaret Sutherland (d.1855 & d. 1863) give William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland (nee Sutherland) as the parents?

Good luck!

Let me know how you go

Jen
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 20 January 09 11:01 GMT (UK)
Did both the deaths for Margaret Sutherland (d.1855 & d. 1863) give William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland (nee Sutherland) as the parents?
Yes, they did. >:(
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 20 January 09 11:25 GMT (UK)
Looking more like two seperate families from William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland's then.....

Fancy that two couples with the same name and same last name marrying at about the same time in the same area......gotta be a Sutherland  :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Tuesday 20 January 09 11:35 GMT (UK)
Oh shush, Clark. :P
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 20 January 09 11:48 GMT (UK)
 ;D You don't want to get me started on my Clark's  ::)

Good luck mate!
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Thursday 22 January 09 23:10 GMT (UK)
Back from New Register House again. More questions than answers as usual. ::)

Does this fit any baptisms?
No.

Or do we have possible marriages for William Sutherland's and Ann Sutherland's to see if there are two or even three??
No.

Found more descendants of William and Ann Sutherland! Plus some other stuff.

Can't find Neil Sutherland baptised 1782 at NRH. Closest was Neil Sutherland baptised 6 Feb 1778, son of John Sutherland of Balnabruich.

Closest marriage was William Sutherland married Ann Sutherland 2nd Jan 1778 at Canisbay.

Can't find Esther at NRH.

Possible baptism of Adam (born c1770):

Willm Sutherland in Achcastle had a child baptised named Adam. Witnesses Willm Sutherland Grieve at Langwell and Jas. Miller there. (9/4/1774)

Robert (born c1777)

William Sutherland in Cairn of Berriedale had a child baptised named Robert (7/4/1777).

William Sutherland in Bad Bhae had a child baptised named Robert. (18/8/1777).

Margaret (born c1786)

William Sutherland in Lower Millary had a child baptised named Margaret. (5/2/1777)

William Sutherland in Bouleden had a child baptised named Margaret. (8/1779)

Possibly a child of Neil's... entry was unfinished, or they hadn't chosen a name!

Niel Sutherland Achastle, Berriedale, had a child named ... (13 May 1812)

Two more descendants of William and Ann:

Jane Sutherland (pauper), married to John Sutherland, died 19th July 1875 at Knockally age 83, daughter of William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland (MS Sutherland). General debility from old age, gradual. Informant Adam Sutherland, son. So possibly Jane/Jean b c1789.

William Sutherland, crofter and fisherman, married to Janet Sutherland died 8th March 1871 at Houstry, Dunbeath age 73 years. Son of William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland (MS Sutherland). Cancer of ???, some years. Informant Donald Sutherland, son (present). Possibly William b c1798.

Ergh.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 23 January 09 10:03 GMT (UK)
Not more surely!!!

Well another William and Jane hey, correct me if I am wrong but William Sutherland (d 1871) aged 73yrs would put his birth as 1798 ...... so he is already listed as a child of William & Ann Sutherland of Mulbuie...right?

As for Jane she died 1875 aged 83yrs so born abt 1792...... there is already a Helen Sutherland b 1792 so unless she is a twin (which she could be) she is perhaps from your family? Or she could be Jean b 1789 as you mentioned, as they are often a few years off aren't they  :-\

Typical that both of them married Sutherlands too  :P

The baptisms you found put William's living in various locations:

1774 - Achcastle (part of Berriedale?) Adam
1777 - Cairn of Berriedale Robert and Bad Bhae Robert and Lower Millary Margaret
1779 - Bouleden Margaret

Just purely by the three baptisms in 1777, I would be leaning towards three seperate William Sutherland's having kids at the same time, it doesn't help us with who they all were married to, but I think we can hazard a guess that two at least were married to different Ann Sutherland's!!

Do we know where these places are? I mean even if they moved around a bit, how likely is it that no two children were baptised at the same place??

Man these guys are certainly a challenge!

Jen
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Friday 23 January 09 10:12 GMT (UK)
This "new" William and Jane, both descendants of William and Ann, are on my list of Mulbuie Sutherlands, but who's to say that they're correct? The fact that Jane died at Knockally suggests she's from my lot.

I've never heard of any of these places, but I think it's safe to say Bad Bhae is Badbea. ;)

Do you have access to the censuses? It might be beneficial to find out where this Jane (m John Sutherland) and William (m Janet Sutherland) etc were staying. It they're at Balnabruich or Knockally, then they're probably my lot. If you don't have access, I'll probably need to go back to NRH, or perhaps someone else will be kind enough to help out? :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 23 January 09 10:48 GMT (UK)
Good point mate, checking the census data would give you more clues.

Unfortunately I don't have access at the moment otherwise I'd be onto it!

Perhaps you should post the scottish census lookups you need (William, Jane, Margaret x 2, Robert & Adam or any other ones you have certain death dates for) seperately with a link to this thread, so it pops up as a new topic?

Fingers crossed hey  ;)

Jen
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 23 January 09 10:59 GMT (UK)
Just checked my ordinance survey maps of the area and there is an Achastle between Swiney Hill and Burrigill just off the road from Latheron to Lybster (north of Latheron)  ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 23 January 09 11:08 GMT (UK)
Or perhaps more likely, this Achastle (another name for Langwell Castle)

http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/pls/portal/newcanmore.details_gis?inumlink=8071

http://www.caithness.org/caithness/castles/achastle/index.htm

As later on Neil Sutherland is having a child there too  ;)


Possibly a child of Neil's... entry was unfinished, or they hadn't chosen a name!

Niel Sutherland Achastle, Berriedale, had a child named ... (13 May 1812)


So I would deduce from this that Adam (bap Achastle) and Robert (bap Cairn of Berriedale) are your family  as Neil is also in the same area later.....

Jen
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 23 January 09 11:28 GMT (UK)
Can't find a Lower Millary.....but Millary is described as part of Latheron in other baptisms on the net....so possibly Lower Millary was near there?

But I honestly think that Latheron is too far from Berriedale (if indeed your family were there) to have baptised a child in April 1777 in Berriedale and one in Feb 1777 in Latheron. So I don't think this Margaret is yours  :-\
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 23 January 09 11:55 GMT (UK)
Checked FreeCEN

and this looks like Adam Sutherland in 1841:

Houstry, Latheron

SUTHERLAND Adam M 70yrs Caithness           
SUTHERLAND Elizabeth F 70yrs Caithness           
SUTHERLAND William M 5yrs Caithness

And 1851 - Burnside, Latheron

SUTHERLAND Adam Head    W M    82yrs Pauper Farmer Caithness - Latheron   

And possibly Robert?    

1841 - Houstry, Latheron

SUTHERLAND Robert M 60yrs Farmer Caithness           
SUTHERLAND Janet F 60yrs Caithness           
SUTHERLAND Catherine F 35yrs Caithness           
SUTHERLAND William M 25yrs Caithness           
SUTHERLAND Robert M 20yrs Caithness
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 23 January 09 12:12 GMT (UK)
A possible of FreeCEN for Jane Sutherland and John Sutherland

1851 - Hillhead, Latheron

SUTHERLAND John Head M M 68yrs Merchant (Grocer,Clothier &c) Caithness - Badharigo           
SUTHERLAND Jane Wife M F 63yrs -  Caithness - Berridale Latheron           
SUTHERLAND Patrick Son U M 21yrs Clerk Caithness - Lybster Latheron           
SUTHERLAND William Grnson U M 14yrs Scholar Caithness - Lybster Latheron           
MACGRIGOR Janet Niece U F 31yrs - Caithness - Latheron Disability: Blind    
GUNN Alexander Visitr W   M 46yrs Travelling Hawker Caithness - Braemore?   
SUTHERLAND Alexander -    U M   25yrs Labourer Caithness - Osclay Latheron           
SUTHERLAND Marjory - U   F 24yrs House Servant Caithness - Roster Latheron           
MACKAY Hugh - U M 13yrs Errand Boy Caithness - Achavar Latheron

or more likely......

1851 - Knockally, Berriedale, Latheron

SUTHERLAND John Head M M 57yrs   Crofter 1 & One Half Acre Land Caithness - Latheron           
SUTHERLAND Jane Wife M F 57yrs -  Caithness - Latheron           
SUTHERLAND Jane Dau U   F 20yrs Hemp Spinner Caithness - Latheron           
SUTHERLAND John Son U   M 17yrs Fisher    Caithness - Latheron           
SUTHERLAND Neil Son - M 10yrs Scholar Caithness - Latheron           
SUTHERLAND Janet Grndau - F    4yrs    - Caithness - Watten   

I'm seeing another Neil  ;D   
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Friday 23 January 09 12:30 GMT (UK)
You say that Berriedale is too far from Latheron, but there you have "Knockally, Berriedale, Latheron". :P I've always seen Knockally/Balnabruich together, but never Knockally and Berriedale!

When you get on a roll like this I get confused by the mass of information, so I might just come back to it later. :P Always advisable to take a break. But yes I think I will make a census look-up thread as you advised. :)

PS: I appreciate all your help, btw, the offer of looking up stuff at NRH is still open to you. ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Friday 23 January 09 23:36 GMT (UK)
Yeah sorry, I do tend to get carried away sometimes  ;D

As for Knockally, Berriedale, Latheron (was just transcribing it directly from the census), I meant that the town of Latheron is a fair way from Berriedale....but they are both in Latheron parish  ::)

Get back to me when you have had time to digest it all! And I'll have a look to see if there is anything I need from NRH.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: bensuvo81 on Saturday 22 May 10 03:16 BST (UK)
Hi my name is Ben, i am another Sutherland who is related to John Sutherland & Catherine Gunn. John is my gggg Grandfather through his son Isaac Sutherland. Im finding very hard to find Catherine's Grandparents as i have her parents down as John Gunn & Janet Sutherland. As i have read some of your posts im not sure if this is indeed correct or not. Any help in Regards to the Sutherland family tree would be great help as im kind of thinking i may have hit a wall, although the Angus Stherland & Neil Sutherland has given me a glimmer of hope.
     
Any help is greatly appreciated
                                                    Ben
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: ostler on Saturday 22 May 10 15:15 BST (UK)
Hi Ben

I hope by Angus and Neil Sutherland you're referring to my direct ancestors! It would be great to find someone else related to this family. May suggest you check out the website http://www.badbeafamilies.com and send the webmaster an email - everyone involved in the website are very helpful and in one way or another, realted to each other!! If you are indeed a descendant of John Sutherland and Catherine Gunn then you are a Badbea descendant, and we'd very much like to hear from you!! :)

Tell them Bryce sent you. ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: bensuvo81 on Sunday 23 May 10 22:10 BST (UK)
Thank you for the warm welcome! Im am a relation of John Sutherland & Catherine Gunn, im just having a lot of trouble trying to find any information on either of them. I have found thier marrige on familysearch for 22 Nov 1796, but have hit a wall in regards to anything else. I think johns father is a James Sutherland, but unsure as i haven't found any certified info. I'll try the Badbea site that you recommended.
Thanks again & I'll keep in touch.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 24 May 10 08:50 BST (UK)
Hello Boys!!!!

Welcome to Rootschat Ben, glad you have found Bryce and I, we are also descendant from John Sutherland and Catherine Gunn of Berriedale. Bryce and I have done a fair bit of work on this family and we are happy to share what little we know. I do recommend joining the Badbea Families group too, they are very helpful and also very welcoming  ;)

I have one point to clear up though, you mention Ben that you are descendant from John Sutherland and Catherine Gunn's son Isaac Sutherland...yes?

I do not have a record of an Isaac Sutherland to this couple as yet....this doesn't mean that they didn't have a son named Isaac....just that I hadn't found him yet. I guess you have figured out that Sutherland's are thick in the water up there and there are many common names that get flung about a fair bit. I have spent hours (some with and some without Bryce) in Edinburgh trying to sort out this family. I can give you what I have so far and I am happy to add your Isaac Sutherland to the family...if you are able to pass on some details...birth, death etc. I am assuming that you got his parents from his death cert? That is how we have found most of the children of this couple.....very painstaking going through death certs when one doesn't know the names of their children!! But very rewarding when you spot one  ;D

So far we have:

John Sutherland m. Catherine Gunn 22 Jan 1796 at Latheron Parish Church (recorded as John Sutherland and Katherine Gun both in Achancraig Ousdale contracted in order to marriage and married)

Children:
Jane Sutherland (born abt 1798 at Berriedale, m. Thomas Rutherford, d. 1879 West Kilbride Ayr)
James Sutherland (born abt 1800 at Berriedale, m. Catherine McKay, d. 1894 Dunbeath, Latheron)
Elizabeth Sutherland (born abt 1804-7 Berriedale, d. 1876 Berriedale) This is my rellie
John Sutherland (born abt 1809 Berriedale, d. 1888 Berriedale)
Hannah Sutherland (born abt 1810 Berriedale, m. David Sutherland, d. 1899 Berriedale)
Janet Sutherland (born abt 1812/13 Berriedale, m. Angus Sutherland, d. 1900 Berriedale) This is Bryce's rellie

My Elizabeth (or Betty as she was known) did not marry but had an illegitimate son James Rutherford from whom I descend.

I have census data for John & Catherine Sutherland in Berriedale as below:

1841 census - Newport, Berriedale, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland 70yrs Tenant Farmer of this county
Catherine Sutherland 65yrs of this county
Betty Sutherland 30yrs of this county
Janet Sutherland 25yrs of this county
James Rutherford 4yrs of this county

John died somewhere between the census' but it is pre-registration so there is no death certificate.

1851 census - Newport, Berriedale, Latheron, Caithness

Catherine Sutherland head widow 75yrs Farming 4 acres b. Berriedale, Caithness
John Sutherland son U 41yrs Fisherman / Ag Labourer b. Berriedale, Caithness
Elizabeth Sutherland dau U 44yrs? House Servant b. Berriedale, Caithness
James Rutherford grandson U 14yrs Scholar b. Berriedale, Caithness

1861 census - Berriedale, Latheron, Caithness

Widow Sutherland Head W 90yrs Crofter b. Berriedale, Caithness
John Sutherland Son U 52yrs Fisherman b. Berriedale, Caithness
Elizabeth Sutherland Dau U 54yrs Housekeeper b. Berriedale, Caithness
George Sutherland G Son U 16yrs Scholar b. Berriedale, Caithness

Catherine's death cert is recorded below:

14 Jun 1861 Catherine Sutherland - widow of John Sutherland (Crofter) Of Newport, Berriedale. 88yrs Father John Gunn (Crofter deceased) mother Janet Gunn (MS Sutherland deceased) Cause of death - old age. Informant John Sutherland (son present)

I have not found a baptism for either Catherine Gunn or John Sutherland as yet, there are a few possibilities....... but am still looking  ;)

Does this information fit with your family?

I would love to hear more about Isaac...where did he end up?

Thanks for getting in touch and I look forward to hearing from you again soon  :)

Jenny

Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mandyfostersutherland on Thursday 28 September 17 17:29 BST (UK)
Hi there. My name is Mandy Foster and I am working on the Sutherland Family history. My husband is David Sinclair Sutherland from the North Bay, Ontario, Canada Sutherlands. We just got back from Scotland visiting Latheron, Lybster and surrounding areas. We think we have gone back as far as 1700 for the family.
David's great, great, grandfather was Donald Sutherland married to Amelia (Dunnet?). He was the son of Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain.
I think we have some information to share!
Please get back to me. Thanks
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 08 October 17 11:18 BST (UK)
Hi Mandy,

I am not related to the Neil Sutherland line, but Bryce is so I will let him get in touch.

Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain's son Angus Sutherland (abt 1803-1888) married Janet Sutherland in 1843 as his second wife, she was the daughter of John Sutherland & Catherine Gunn (which is my line of Sutherlands....there are sooo many!)

I don't have any info on your Donald Sutherland....though Bryce might. But this is what I have on Angus:

death cert:
Angus Sutherland crofter and woollen weaver (married 1st Janet Gow (dec), 2nd Janet Sutherland) died 31st Oct 1888 Achnacraig, Berriedale. Male 85yrs Fa: Neil Sutherland crofter and fisherman (dec) Mo: Janet Sutherland (MS Bain) (dec) debility from old age (gradual) Informant Alex Sutherland (cousin) Post Office Dunbeath.

Memorial Insciption
In memory of.
Angus Sutherland died at Badbea 31st October 1888 aged 85.
Wife Janet Gow died 8th November 1841 aged 28.
Erected by his son William.

1841 census:

Piece: SCT1841/38 Place: Latheron -Caithness Enumeration District: 12
Civil Parish: Latheron Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Berriedale
Folio: 0 Page: 6
Address: Knockally

SUTHERLAND Angus M 35 Wool Hand Loom Weaver Caithness
SUTHERLAND Jannet F 25 Caithness
SUTHERLAND Eliza F 30 Caithness
DOUGLAS John M 7 Caithness

We also found a sister for Angus, and therefore also a sister of your Donald Sutherland, named Esther. Her details are below in case you haven't got them.

Sister:

13 July 1877 at Bruan, Latheron marriage
James Sutherland (crofter & cooper journeyman) widower Fa: Benjamin Sutherland crofter & fisherman dec Mo: Catherine Sutherland (MS Cormack dec) 70yrs Res: Smerly Swiney, Latheron
Esther Sutherland (agricultural labourer - widow) Fa: Neil Sutherland crofter & fisherman dec Mo: Janet Sutherland MS Bain dec 50yrs Res: Smerly Swiney, Latheron
Wit: John Bain, Margaret Forbes

Death: Esther Sutherland crofter widow (married 1st William Bain crofter 2nd James Sutherland) crofter died 10 Mar 1900 at ??Hill, Smerlie, Lybster aged 75yrs Fa: Neil Sutherland crofter dec, Mo: Janet Sutherland MS Bain dec Heart Disease & Pneumonia. Informant Alexander Bain son & inmate present.

1871 census - Badharigo, Swiney Estate, Lybster, Latheron

William Bain Head M 66yrs Crofter b. Swiney, Caithness
Esther Bain Wife M 46yrs crofter's wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Margaret Bain Dau U 15yrs Scholar b. Swiney, Caithness
Alexander Bain Son U 13yrs Scholar b. Swiney, Caithness

1891 census - Swiney Estate, Lybster, Latheron

Esther Sutherland Head W 62yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness (gaelic & english)
Alexander Bain Son U 32yrs Gen Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness


I hope that helps, and that you are able to link up with Bryce and other rellies :)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Anjimiller on Monday 18 June 18 22:36 BST (UK)
Hi, I am also related to the Sutherlands of Latheron, but from a Peter Sutherland b 1854 and Elizabeth Gunn. My grandfather (Donald), seemingly one of many siblings where some went off to Canada.

I’ve managed to find Peter’s father Peter b approx. 1827 and his mother Jane Sutherland, and also his grandfather Peter and grandmother Margaret Stephenson.

I’d like to ask if anyone has come across them in their research as I’ve hit a brick wall trying to find any further relatives,

Thank you.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 19 June 18 08:41 BST (UK)
Hi Anjimiller,

I've had a look in my tree and I am afraid I don't have any of the names you mention....no Peter Sutherland's at all in fact....so I am not sure that I will be much help  :-\

The Sutherland name, as you are no doubt aware, is thick on the ground in that part of the country.

Have you had a look at the Latheron, Caithness parish registers that Family Search have popped online? You need to be in an LDS family history centre or an affiliated library to view them, but they have all the pre-1855 parish records to scroll through....much cheaper than paying to look at individual images on Scotlandspeople. The parish records have occupation and location data that might help you sort some of them out  ;)

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/84569

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Anjimiller on Tuesday 19 June 18 09:13 BST (UK)
Thank you Jenny, I will investigate your links.
And
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 19 June 18 09:16 BST (UK)
No worries, good luck.....Caithness is a veritable Sutherland minefield  ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Monday 02 November 20 03:45 GMT (UK)
Hi All I am another Frustrated Sutherland Researcher.  My research is with William Sutherland born 1854 to Alexander and Jane Sutherland in Caithness Scotland.  I can't find his birth but in the 1861 and 1871 Census he is living with his Grandparents David and Margaret Sutherland at Latheron, Caithness.  In 1871 he is an apprentice Tailor.  In 1873 he boards the Isle of the South and arrives in Llyelton New Zealand on 2 November 1874 and stays with his Aunt and Uncle.. John and Janet Sutherland of Mount Grey Downs, Sefton, New Zealand.  At some stage he joins the Canterbury Police Force and marries Isabella Kelly in Canterbury in 1882.  In August 1882 they board the Wakatipu for Sydney Australia and William begins work with the NSW Police Force on 26th September 1882.  He talks his cousin David, son of John and Janet Sutherland to join him and he leaves on the Rotomahana 28th February 1886 for Sydney Australia and after a few months joins the service only to be shot by a burglar and dies after identifying him.  There are many articles in the paper regarding this as well as a mugshot of the man who committed the crime.  William identifies his cousin and then he himself is hit on the head and dies from complications in 1901.  I am trying to find his parents in Scotland his grandparents were living at Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness.. is anyone related to this family?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 02 November 20 11:20 GMT (UK)
Hi mweston....welcome to the frustrating (but sometimes rewarding) search for Sutherlands in this part of the country  ;)

Unfortunately, I have not got any of these Sutherlands in my tree. So sadly, no I don't think we are related...as far as I can see anyway.

You may not ever get a birth/baptism for William Sutherland being born around 1854. Registration only started in Scotland in 1855, so before that you have to rely on the child being baptised...and from my experience in Caithness baptisms are few and far between (with my Sutherland's at least!).

I can see a tree on Ancestry that has the NZ marriage record for William Sutherland & Isabella Kelly attached (perhaps this is your tree?) showing the below information:

Marriage 1 Aug 1882, Lyttelton
William Sutherland, 28yrs, bachelor, tailor, b. Caithness, Scotland, parents Alexander Sutherland (shoemaker) & Jane Sutherland (MS Sutherland)
Isabella Kelly, 24yrs, spinster, b. Hobart, Tasmania, parents William Kelly (Labourer) & Isabella Kelly (MS Farquhar)

The census returns you found in 1861 and 1871 at Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate seem likely to be 'your' William Sutherland, especially with his being listed as an apprentice tailor in 1871. Is there any other confirmed link to Torbeg/Dunbeath or the grandparents David & Margaret Sutherland? Do you know whether David & Margaret Sutherland are the parents of Alexander or Jane? Both William's parents having the surname Sutherland makes it a bit more of a challenge!

Do you have a maiden name for William Sutherland's grandmother Margaret?

Women in Scotland are often recorded in death records after 1855 under both their maiden and married names, so you might be able to track down his mother or grandmother's deaths searching on Scotland's People that way.

Torbeg appears to be quite a small settlement, it is referred to in Scotland's Places in 1871 as consisting of 3 crofts.

https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/caithness-os-name-books-1871-1873/caithness-volume-06/281

I can see that the census returns show the below:

1861 - Torbagge, Latheron, Caithness
David Sutherland Head 64yrs Farmer b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Wife 62yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Dau 33yrs Domestic Servant b. Latheron, Caithness
Mary Sutherland Dau 20yrs Domestic Servant b. Latheron, Caithness
William Sutherland Grandson 7yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

1871 - Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness
David Sutherland Head 75yrs Crofter b. Berriedale, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Wife 73yrs Crofter's Wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Dau 43yrs Crofter's Daur b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Jamesina Sutherland Dau 32yrs Crofter's Daur b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Mary Sutherland Dau 29yrs Crofter's Daur b. Dunbeath, Caithness
William Sutherland Grandson 17yrs Tailor (apprentice) b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Jamesina Sutherland Granddaughter 6yrs Scholar b. Dunbeath, Caithness

The 1881 census is a bit of a mess on Ancestry, but from what I can gather there still seem to be a number of Sutherland's living in Torbeg (around 10). You could buy the image on Scotland's People to see what it really says, but it looks like David & Margaret may have died and a couple of their daughters are still at the croft?

1881 census - Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness
Margret Sutherland Head 53yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)
Mary Sutherland Sister 40yrs b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)

So you have quite a few names there to track down. I wonder if Jamesina Sutherland is William's sister or cousin? It certainly is a more unique name to try and track down than William. Though I see that on Scotland's People there are still two Jamesina Sutherlands born in Latheron Parish, at about the right time one in 1865 and one in 1866...so you would have to take a chance and pay for the certificates if you wanted to chase that one further.

What a fascinating story, and an intriguing puzzle to try and solve  :)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 02 November 20 11:24 GMT (UK)
Hello again mweston...

I had a look for a marriage for an Alexander Sutherland & Jane Sutherland on Scotland's People before 1854, and the only likely one that came up in Caithness was the below:

Alexander Sutherland & Jean Sutherland married 17 Dec 1852 Latheron

Jane and Jean were often interchangeably used in Scotland...so this could be your couple. You would need to order the parish record to see if there is any additional details, say for example his occupation. Though it is unlikely. 

I had a look at the 1851 census as your William's parents must be alive on that one...the only likely Alexander Sutherland I found is below:

1851 census - Achviole, Latheron, Caithness
Alexander Sutherland Head 31yrs Shoemaker b. Latheron, Caithness
Cathrine Sutherland Mother 69yrs b. Latheron, Caithness

I can't see Achviole in Scotland's Places, but Achavrole does come up and it is right next door to Torbeg. So it may be a transcription error in the census return, perhaps it was hard to read. You would have to check the original image on Scotland's People to see, its reference there is 038/15/7. If this is your Alexander Sutherland, he appears not to be the son of David & Margaret Sutherland.

https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/caithness-os-name-books-1871-1873/caithness-volume-06/254

I checked the 1851 census for a Jane/Jean Sutherland of a similar age, preferably with parents David & Margaret in the Latheron Parish...and the closest match I found is below...there may be a few mistranscriptions (Donald/David, Jamesina/Jamima, & Mary/May)...perhaps the census really is hard to read  ???
The reference on Scotland's People is 038/15/4

1851 census - Achviole, Latheron, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Head 55yrs Fisherman b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Wife 52yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Jane Sutherland Dau 27yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
John Sutherland Son 25yrs Fisherman b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Dau 23yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Jamima Sutherland Dau 12yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
May Sutherland Dau 9yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

There is certainly a Jane there of the right age, and a John that could be 'uncle John Sutherland of NZ' - what do you think?

I checked the 1841 census and the below is the best match for Alexander, unfortunately I couldn't find a good match for Jane or the family of David & Margaret Sutherland though.

1841 census - Tormore, Latheron, Caithness
John Suther'd 60yrs Army P(ensioner) born in county
Catharina Suther'd 55yrs born in county
Alex Suther'd 20yrs Shoemaker born in county
Alex Suther'd 15yrs MS (male servant) born in county

Toremore/Tormore is on the same page in Scotland's Places as the link I popped up for Torbeg/Torebeg - so we are in the right vicinity.

I hope that helps you with some leads at least   ;D

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 02 November 20 12:43 GMT (UK)
Ok....one last post for the night...I promise  ;)

I think the below census returns may relate to your William's parents Alexander and Jean/Jane Sutherland. I don't know why William was always with his grandparents though....I presumed his parents must have died young, but perhaps not  ::)

1861 census - Upper Balchrick, Latheron, Caithness (Scotland's People ref: 038/19/3)
Alexander Sutherland Head 41yrs Shoemaker & Fisherman b. Latheron, Caithness
Jean Sutherland Wife 58yrs (I think this is 38yrs mistranscribed) b. Latheron, Caithness
Cathrine Sutherland Dau 4yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Margart Sutherland Dau 1yr b. Latheron, Caithness

1871 census - Balchrick, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness (Scotland's People ref: 038/15/4)
Alexander Sutherland Head 52yrs Shoemaker b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Jane Sutherland Wife 47yrs Shoemaker's wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Catherine Sutherland Dau 15yrs Shoemaker's daughter b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Dau 11yrs Scholar b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Johan Sutherland Dau 4yrs Shoemaker's daughter b. Dunbeath, Caithness

1881 census - Achvroal, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness (Scotland's People ref: 038/15/12)
Alexander Sutherland Head 59yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)
Jane Sutherland Wife 54yrs b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)
Johan Sutherland Dau 14yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

1891 census - Achvrole, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness (Scotland's People ref: 038/15/9)
Alexander Sutherland Head 70yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness
Catherine Sutherland Dau 34yrs General Servant (domestic) b. Latheron, Caithness
Jamesina Sutherland Granddau 7yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

What do you think??

The only birth I could find on Ancestry was for Johan the youngest child, but Margaret and Catherine's births should also be recorded after registration (1855).

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name:    Johan Sutherland
Gender:    Female
Birth Date:    1 Feb 1867
Birth Place:    Latheron,Caithness,Scotland
Father:    Alexander Sutherland
Mother:    Jane Sutherland
FHL Film Number:    6035516

I hope that helps...going to go to bed now, or I will be useless at work tomorrow!

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 02 November 20 13:26 GMT (UK)
The only birth I could find on Ancestry was for Johan the youngest child, but Margaret and Catherine's births should also be recorded after registration (1855).

The best place to look for the surviving pre-1855 Scottish baptism and marriage records is Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk which also has images of all the events available to download at modest cost. The index is free to search and is complete, E&OE.

There is no point in looking for this information on a third-party web site such as Ancestry, FindMyPast, MyHeritage, FamilySearch etc when it is available free at source.

Births and marriages 1855-1874 are indexed on FamilySearch but original documents are only available at Scotland's People.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Monday 02 November 20 21:14 GMT (UK)
Very true Forfarian, Scotland's People is the only place with a complete index for births post 1855 and the actual certificates of course  ;)

The challenge is sorting out which certificate to purchase when one has a very common name....for example there are 12 Margaret Sutherland's born in Latheron parish, Caithness between 1859 & 1861...one of them is hopefully the daughter of Alexander & Jane Sutherland....but which one? Sadly no Margaret Sutherland births in this time period feature in the indexes on Ancestry or Family Search, just Johan who was born in 1867.

I always search the third party sites as they have parents names listed in the index, to see if I can narrow it down, and increase my hit rate of purchasing the correct one.

I likewise check the indexes on Ancestry for Scottish census returns, even though they are often a poor transcription, as although Scotland's People are the only place to see the actual images, their index does not give family groupings, so you can spend a great deal of money trying to guess the right one for common names.

What's the saying....measure twice, cut once...all the sites have their pluses and minuses  :)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Monday 02 November 20 23:47 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenny and Forfarian, oh WOW, I have sifted through all your information and taken on everything you have said, also have the info from Scotlands People.  Where to start...I can confirm that Jamesina Sutherland born 4th February 1865 at Upper Achavrole Dunbeath F: Alexander Sutherland (Shoemaker Journeyman) and M: Jane Sutherland (Maiden Surname: Sutherland) is indeed my William's sister.  On the Certificate is also Alexander and Jane's marriage date of: 17th December 1852 at Latheron (I also got the marriage but only gives me the names and date, no parents unfortunately).  I have been under the impression that, due to all the articles regarding the death of David referring to William as his cousin, that he was related to John and Janet through John being his father's brother.. but maybe now that I know his mother's name was also Sutherland it could be from his mother's side..  It certainly seems that the Alexander and Jane Sutherland from the census are indeed William's parents.. maybe his job as a journeyman took them away a lot? Not sure of the way of things at that time.   Yes, the tree on Ancestry is mine....  From the other trees on Ancestry, John Sutherland's parents were David Sutherland and Margaret Gunn but still looking into that.. there is definitely a connection... again many thanks for all your help I have been able to put a few more pieces back to this puzzle... I'll keep looking and get back to you with what I find.. Cheers Margaret
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Tuesday 03 November 20 00:15 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenny, also found this to confirm the parentage of John Sutherland (Uncle) "Donald Sutherland was the  twelfth child of   David Sutherland ( abt 1798– 1876) and Margaret Gunn and was the brother of John Sutherland who  settled at Mt Grey Downs in New Zealand  Donald was born on 30th August 1835 at Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland  On his death certificate Donald's parents are given as David Sutherland (a cooper?) and Margaret Gunn ( nee Sutherland)" so infact we have two Uncles in NZ at the time.... Cheers Margaret
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 03 November 20 08:58 GMT (UK)
Well that is wonderful Margaret, I agree that from the information you have it certainly looks like the 1861-1891 census returns in Achavrole & Balchrick for Alexander & Jane Sutherland are the right family  ;D

So from the census returns it appears that your William had at least 4 sisters as below:

Children of Alexander Sutherland & Jane Sutherland (married 1852)
William Sutherland born abt 1854
Catherine Sutherland born abt 1857
Margaret Sutherland born abt 1860
Jamesina Sutherland born 4 Feb 1865 Upper Achavrole, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron parish
Johan Sutherland born 1 Feb 1867 Latheron parish

He also appears to have a niece named Jamesina Sutherland born abt 1884

In the absence of any brothers for William, perhaps Jamesina was an illegitimate child born to one of his sisters? Scotland's People have the birth of a Jamesina Sutherland in Latheron Parish in 1884, but she does not show in the Ancestry index so you would have to purchase the certificate on Scotland's People if you wish to find out who her mother was.

In answer to your query about Alexander being a journeyman shoemaker, it doesn't actually mean that he travelled, it is just the step between an apprentice shoemaker and a master shoemaker. You can read more about it in the below post:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=456410.0

Your challenge now is to find the death records for Alexander Sutherland and Jane/Jean Sutherland to confirm their parents, and mother's maiden names  ;)

The anecdotal evidence certainly seems to suggest that Jane may be the daughter of David Sutherland & Margaret Sutherland (possible maiden name Gunn), and Alexander may be the son of John Sutherland & Catharine Sutherland (maiden name unknown). But from my experience the Sutherlands in this area can be very confusing and intertwined, especially with the Gunns, so I would tread carefully before accepting others research wholeheartedly, and always try to prove it yourself.

Where did you actually find the below reference?

Hi Jenny, also found this to confirm the parentage of John Sutherland (Uncle) "Donald Sutherland was the  twelfth child of David Sutherland ( abt 1798– 1876) and Margaret Gunn and was the brother of John Sutherland who  settled at Mt Grey Downs in New Zealand  Donald was born on 30th August 1835 at Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland  On his death certificate Donald's parents are given as David Sutherland (a cooper?) and Margaret Gunn ( nee Sutherland)" so infact we have two Uncles in NZ at the time.... Cheers Margaret

I haven't yet found a Donald Sutherland linked to this family in the census returns, but it is quite possible that he was elsewhere on census day.

From the 1861 & 1871 census returns David & Margaret Sutherland appear to have the below children:
Margaret Sutherland born abt 1828 Dunbeath Estate, Latheron parish
Jamesina Sutherland born abt 1839 Dunbeath Estate, Latheron parish
Mary Sutherland born abt 1842 Dunbeath Estate, Latheron parish

IF the 1851 census is correct we can also add:
Jane Sutherland born abt 1824 Latheron parish
John Sutherland born abt 1826 Latheron parish

If they indeed had 12 children, then there are many more to locate!

Scotland's People does show the below marriage:

David Sutherland & Margt Gunn 16 March 1821 Latheron parish

There are only 4 baptisms on Scotland's People for this couple between 1821 & 1851:
James Sutherland born 5 Sept 1830 Latheron son of David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn
Donald Sutherland born 30 Aug 1835 Latheron son of David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn
Jamima Henderson Sutherland born born 2 Jun 1839 Latheron dau of David Sutherland & Margt Gunn
Mary Sutherland born 19 Sept 1841 Latheron dau of David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn

These seem to match with the children in the census Jamesina/Jamima in abt 1839 and Mary in abt 1842, Donald and James don't however feature in the census return. If only we could find them in the 1841 census, that may give more clues.

Unfortunately the baptisms before 1830 don't show a mother's name so it is a bit harder to identify the earlier children born to David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn. There were several David Sutherland's having children in Latheron in this time period (married variously to: Anne Henderson, Catherine Campbell, Catherine Taylor, Christian Mcbeath, Esther Sutherland, Hannah Sutherland [these ones are actually related to me ;)], Helen Dunbar, Isabella Sutherland, Jane Ross, Johanna Campbell, May Bruce, & Margaret Macalister). Having said that, there are a few baptisms that seem to match the census returns:

Jane Sutherland born 19 Nov 1823 Latheron, daughter of David Sutherland
John Sutherland born 11 Nov 1825 Latheron, son of David Sutherland
Margaret Sutherland born 10 Jan 1828 Latheron, daughter of David Sutherland

There are 9 other baptisms with a father David Sutherland who may be siblings...or may not be

To help sort out my Sutherlands, I spend many hours at New Register House in Edinburgh pouring through the post 1855 death records to see if I could find matching parents...but even that can be fraught with danger as there are many examples couples with exactly the same names, having children in the same town, around the same time  ::)

Hence the frustration experienced when researching Sutherlands  ;D

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 03 November 20 09:59 GMT (UK)
It looks like Margaret Sutherland (nee Gunn) died in 1879.

On Scotland's People she is recorded under both Gunn & Sutherland...and her mother appears to be another Sutherland...so your Sutherland tree grows again  ;D

SUTHERLAND
MARGARET
80yrs
SUTHERLAND (Mother's maiden name)
1879
038/ 54
Latheron

GUNN
MARGARET
80yrs
SUTHERLAND (Mother's maiden name)
1879
038/ 54
Latheron

David Sutherland appears to have died in 1876...his mother's maiden name is not given in the index in Scotland's People

SUTHERLAND
DAVID
78yrs
1876
038/ 98
Latheron

There are a couple of possibilities for Jane Sutherland's death between the 1881 and 1891 census', the most likely being the first. Unfortunately her mother's maiden name is not given in the index.

SUTHERLAND
JANE
60yrs
1884
038/ 57
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
JANE
64yrs
1886
038/ 37
Latheron

Alexander Sutherland is a bit harder....there are a few possibilities. I've put the one I think the most likely at the top.

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
80yrs
1900
038/ 13
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
76yrs
1895
038/ 39
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
70yrs
1894
038/ 85
Latheron

Good luck  ;)

I'll be very interested to know how you get on

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 03 November 20 10:15 GMT (UK)
Very true Forfarian, Scotland's People is the only place with a complete index for births post 1855 and the actual certificates of course  ;)

The challenge is sorting out which certificate to purchase when one has a very common name....for example there are 12 Margaret Sutherland's born in Latheron parish, Caithness between 1859 & 1861...one of them is hopefully the daughter of Alexander & Jane Sutherland....but which one? Sadly no Margaret Sutherland births in this time period feature in the indexes on Ancestry or Family Search, just Johan who was born in 1867.
See the attached screenshot from the IGI on FamilySearch.

If you sort them in order of birth, it whould help to home in on the one you want on SP.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 03 November 20 10:46 GMT (UK)
Brilliant, such a help Forfarian  ;D

I didn't know you could search the IGI like that!

From the list you can easily see the right one....

Margaret Sutherland
02 NOV 1859
Achavroul Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Father Alexander Sutherland
Mother Jean Sutherland

and her siblings:

Catharine Sutherland
25 OCT 1855
Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Father Alexander Sutherland
Mother Jane Sutherland

Jamesina Sutherland
04 FEB 1865
Upper Achavroal Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Father Alexander Sutherland
Mother Jane Sutherland

Interestingly Johan doesn't seem to show...but she is the only one on the Ancestry index  ::)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 03 November 20 12:03 GMT (UK)
Interestingly Johan doesn't seem to show...but she is the only one on the Ancestry index  ::)
She did when I ran a search in the IGI for children of Alexander Sutherland and Jane Sutherland in Latheron from 1855 to 1874. That found Catharine, Margaret, Jamesina and Johan, but for some reason Johan was listed in the 'community indexed' results and the others in the 'community contributed' results.

Johan is listed in the IGI, born 1 February 1867, and there are two births of Johan Sutherlands in Latheron in 1867. As the other one was born in January, your one will be the one reference no 20 in the SP births for Latheron in 1867.

The IGI is a great tool if you are looking for births 1855 to 1874, but it stops at 1874, apart from some, but not all, births in 1881 and 1891.

It can be useful for pre-1855 baptisms, but it is not complete - some parishes' records are missing or only partly indexed - and the 'contributed' section contains some (dis)information that is every bit as dubious as the 'information' on Ancestry, so it needs to be used with care and never relied on to be 100% correct. As pre-1855 baptisms are indexed on SP using both parents' names (where this information exists) and access to the indexes is free, there is no good reason to use any other index when looking for events before 1855.

And there is no good reason at all to use Ancestry, because as you have just found their indexes are incomplete.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Tuesday 03 November 20 12:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks Forfarian  ;)

I never go anywhere other than Scotland's People for pre-1855 events, but now I know there is 'another tool in the tool belt' so to speak for events between 1855 & 1874  ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Wednesday 04 November 20 07:52 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenny and Forfarian, ok have spent the morning on Scotlands People and have the information, you were spot on Jenny, everything matches.. only 1 was a second option here is what I found (I tried to attach but files too big)

Death

Jane Sutherland (1884 038/57)
(married Alexander Sutherland Crofter & Shoemaker)
August second 1884
Upper Achavroul Dunbeath
60 years of age
Father:  David Sutherland (Crofter & Fisherman) (Deceased)
Mother: Margaret Sutherland M.S. Gunn (Deceased)
Cause:  Phithisis
Informant: Alexander Sutherland (Widower)


Alexander Sutherland (1895 138/39)
Pauper (formerly a Crofter and Shoemaker)
(Widower of Jane Sutherland)
May Nineteenth 1895
Upper Achavroul, Dunbeath
76 Years of age
Father:  John Sutherland (Crofter and Chelsea Pensioner) (Deceased)
Mother: Catherine Sutherland previously ???? Sutherland (Deceased)
Cause:  Influenza 9 days
Informant: G Cormack (son-in-law)

David Sutherland (1876 038/98)
Crofter & Fisherman
Married to Margaret Gunn
July thirtyfirst 1876
Torbey, Dunbeath Parish of Latheron
78 years of age
Father: John Sutherland (Crofter & Woollen Weaver) (Deceased)
Mother: Margaret Sutherland M.S. Bain (Deceased)
Cause:  (Supposed) Disease of Heart 3 Years No Medical Attendant
Informant: Alex Sutherland (son-in-law)Upper Achavroul Dunbeath


Margaret Sutherland (1879 038/54) 
Widow of David Sutherland Crofter & Fisherman
Sixteenth of May 1879
Torbey Dunbeath
80 years of age
Cause: Bedrid for 20 years Debility from Age Gradual no regular medical attendant
Informant:  Donal ??????? Nephew Boulglass, Latheron Wheel

You were right about the script, very hard to read.  Now to find John Sutherland and Catherine.  It seems John was a Chelsea Pensioner Guard and there is a John Sutherland from Latheron on Ancestry so more work to do.  If you would like copies of these certificates I'm happy to send to you for future reference, seems this line links up with quite a few especially the Bain line.  Many thanks again I really appreciate your help.   If you need anything here in Australia, please don't hesitate to ask.  Cheers Margaret
 
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 04 November 20 08:52 GMT (UK)
Well, that is absolutely wonderful news Margaret  ;D

Now you have confirmation that Jane Sutherland's parents were indeed David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn, and that Alexander Sutherland's parents were John Sutherland & Catherine Sutherland. It also confirms that all the census returns were correct ;)

I am going to send you a PM with my e-mail so that you can e-mail the certificates to me. I might be able to help with reading the entries...you never know.

Fingers crossed that Catherine Sutherland lived past 1855 so that you can get some more details for her, though from the census returns it looks like John Sutherland died well before 1855...so you will struggle there. Not many burials are recorded for this part of the country pre-registration. His being a Chelsea Pensioner might help you find more about him though, if you can track down his service record.

Good luck!

Jenny

P.S. I am in Australia too, so I am all good there  ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 04 November 20 09:23 GMT (UK)
mweston, why not post images of the bits you can't read, and see if some of us can decipher them?
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 04 November 20 09:31 GMT (UK)
Hey Margaret,

I've had a little look at the images you e-mailed.

I 'think' that they read:

"Catherine Sutherland, previously Henderson, MS Sutherland"
"Donald McAngus, nephew"

What do you think Forfarian?

Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 04 November 20 09:35 GMT (UK)
I also note you missed typing the details about Margaret Sutherland's parents on her death:

Margaret Sutherland (1879 038/54)
Widow of David Sutherland Crofter & Fisherman
Sixteenth of May 1879
Torbey Dunbeath
80 years of age
Father: James Gunn (crofter & fisherman) (Deceased)
Mother: Jane Gunn M.S. Sutherland (Deceased)
Cause: Bedrid for 20 years Debility from Age Gradual no regular medical attendant
Informant:  Donald McAngus, Nephew Boulglass, Latheronwheel

So it looks like you have quite a few Sutherland lines to chase  ;D
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 04 November 20 10:07 GMT (UK)
There appears to be a Donald McAngus in Latheronwheel/Latheron in the census returns

His mother Janet McAngus (MS Gunn) would appear to be the sister of Margaret Sutherland (MS Gunn)...what do you think?

1851 census - Baalinloan, Latheron, Caithness
Jane McAngus Head 40yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Son 14yrs b. Loth, Sutherland

1861 census - Boalno, Latheron, Caithness
Janet Gunn Head 50yrs Dressmaker b. Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Son 23yrs Shoemaker b. Kildonan, Sutherland

1871 census - Knockinnan, Latheronwheel, Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Head 33yrs Shoemaker b. Port Gower, Sutherland
Margaret McAngus Wife 34yrs b. Dunbeath, Caithness
John McAngus Son 4yrs b. Latheronwheel, Caithness
Alexander McAngus Son 3yrs b. Latheronwheel, Caithness
Janet McAngus Dau 3mths b. Latheronwheel, Caithness
Janet McAngus Mother 63yrs Nurse b. Latheronwheel, Caithness

1881 census - Achingoul, Latheronwheel Estate, Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Head 43yrs Shoemaker b. Port Gower, Sutherland (speaks Gaelic)
Margaret McAngus Wife 44yrs b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)
Alexander McAngus Son 12yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet McAngus Dau 10yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
William McAngus Son 7yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
James McAngus Son 5yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Ann McAngus Dau 3yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret McAngus Dau 1yr b. Latheron, Caithness

1891 census - Knockinnan, Latheron, Caithness
Donald McAngus Head 52yrs Crofter & Shoemaker b. Port Gower, Sutherland
Margaret McAngus Wife 34yrs (might be 54yrs mistranscribed) b. Latheron, Caithness
Alexander McAngus Son 22yrs Coachman (domestic) b. Latheron, Caithness
William McAngus Son 17yrs Shoemaker Apprentice b. Latheron, Caithness
Ann McAngus Dau 13yrs General Serv Domestic b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret McAngus Dau 11yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

And his birth:

Name:    Donald Mc Angus
Gender:    Male
Birth Date:    28 Apr 1837
Birth Place:    Loth, Sutherland, Scotland
Father:    John Mc Angus
Mother:    Janet Gunn
FHL Film Number:    990575
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Wednesday 04 November 20 10:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Forfarian and Jenny, sorry about that:

Margaret Sutherland (1879 038/54)
Widow of David Sutherland Crofter & Fisherman
Sixteenth of May 1879
Torbey Dunbeath
80 years of age
Father:  James Gunn (Crofter & Fisherman)( Deceased)
Mother: Jane Gun M.S. Sutherland (Deceased)
Cause: Bedrid for 20 years Debility from Age Gradual no regular medical attendant
Informant:  Donal McAngus Nephew Boulglass, Latheron Wheel

I would never had deciphered the names but I can see them now.  I looked at all the Certs I had to try and get my eye in but not to be I just couldn't see it...so many Sutherlands/Gunns.. I had no idea when I started this journey of finding the family of two cousins who were in the police force and killed while trying to arrest someone it would lead me on such a journey from Scotland to New Zealand and here in Australia... I now know why the chat was named Frustrated Sutherlands seeking Sutherlands...I hope my research helps others... many thanks again
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 04 November 20 10:29 GMT (UK)
What do you think Forfarian?
I agree.
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Wednesday 04 November 20 10:37 GMT (UK)
No worries at all Margaret....I love doing this sort of research, though it can feel like I'm going down a rabbit hole at times!

I'm sure your research will help someone along the line.....Sutherlands and Gunns are thick on the ground in these parts, you are bound to match with someone's line sooner or later  ;D

None of the couples further back in your line seem to match my family yet....but all the 'frustrated Sutherlands' on this thread are probably related if you go far enough back  ;)


Oh, and I can't help myself.....I looked into the other informant on the death certificates

It seems that the G Cormack, informant and son-in-law of Alexander Sutherland was George Cormack.

George Cormack married Jamesina Sutherland in 1887 in Latheron.

Scotland's People reference:
JAMESINA SUTHERLAND
GEORGE CORMACK
1887
038/ 20
Latheron

Be warned though, there appear to be 2 George Cormack/Jamesina Sutherland combinations in the area at that time. The other couple married in Wick in 1896, but they both show in the Latheron 1901 census return!

In 1891 Jamesina appears to be living with her aunts (her mother Jane Sutherland's sisters), which is great as it also gives you Mary's married name.

1891 census - Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Head 63yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness
Mary Finlayson Sister 49yrs General Servant (domestic) b. Latheron, Caithness
George Cormack Lodger 31yrs Agricultural Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness
Jamesina Cormack Niece 25yrs Agricultural Labourer's wife b. Latheron, Caithness
Jane Cormack Niece 2yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Cormack Niece 8mths b. Latheron, Caithness

1901 census - Cong?, Latheron, Caithness
George Cormack Head 41yrs General Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness
Jamesina Cormack Wife 36yrs Labourer's Wife b. Latheron, Caithness
Jane Sutherland Cormack Dau 12yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Maggie Cormack Dau 10yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Hughina Cormack Dau 8yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Alex David Cormack Son 5yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Dachar Cormack Dau 3yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness


Good luck with sorting out your web....

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Friday 06 November 20 23:31 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenny and Forfarian,  I think I have found a connection to Alexander Sutherland's side.  I have found a Donald Sutherland b: 1821 Caithness  Mother: Catherine  Father John. He appears in the 1851 Census in Glasgow with his family... Occupation:  Policeman.  The Australian Govt do a big Recruitment of officers in U.K. and he comes over here with 100 more officers on board the Exodus in August 1855, but when they get here the agent in the UK didn't get them to sign their agreements and there is a big kerfuffle here and they make them stay on the boat till they sign their Agreements, its all about there lodgings, wages etc. which was interesting.  Donald joined the Police Force here 26th July 1855 as did his son in 1872 the whole family were high up in the police force with a grandson being a magristrate.   Evidently Catherine and John had three sons Alexander 1819, John 1821 and William, in Latheron but William passed away when he was 2 and I have only the fact that the occupation of policeman links my William to perhaps his uncle Donald... and seeing that William was born in 1854 a year before Donald came out here.. would the family have kept in touch seeing that William was living with his mother's family.. I know I'm drawing a long bow here.. but I have learnt never to discount anything.. regarding John Sutherland there are a few Chelsea Pensioner Guards  John married Catherine Henderson (nee Sutherland) on 12.3.1818 which fits in with the Catherine  formerly Henderson M.S. Sutherland on Alexander's DC... what do you think   Cheers Margaret
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 07 November 20 06:33 GMT (UK)
Hey Margaret,

Is this the marriage that you are referring to?

JOHN SUTHERLAND
KATHARINE SUTHERLAND
12/03/1818
038/
10 568
Latheron

If she was indeed Catherine/Katherine Henderson (nee Sutherland) then this certainly looks promising, what does the actual church record say? Can you attach a snip of it in this thread, or e-mail it to me?

A marriage in 1818 would certainly fit with Alexander Sutherland's estimated birth in 1819.

It would be very helpful if Catherine Sutherland (formerly Henderson, nee Sutherland) died after 1855 and we could pin point her death certificate. I had a little look at possibilities in the area...and unfortunately there are quite a few.  ::)

Your Catherine Sutherland's age in the 1851 census gives us an approximate birth date of 1782.

I can see in the 1851 census for Latheron Parish that there are 3 Catherine Sutherland's with a birth date of 1782 +/- 5yrs (including yours). Two are living in Achviole (including yours) and one in Latheron itself. If I look at the 1861 census there is only one Catherine Sutherland in Latheron Parish with a birth date of 1782 +/- 5yrs. This Catherine (b abt 1785) is living in Mid Clyth with her nephew David Sutherland. This could be your Catherine, but it doesn't really feel right, I feel like she would be living with Alexander if she was still living...but I could be wrong. I suspect that your Catherine died before the 1861 census (hopefully after 1855!)

There are 4 possible Catherine Sutherland's who died in Latheron Parish between 1855 and 1861, one of them shows under both the names Sutherland & Budge so we can discount her, but the others are below. I have listed what I think is most likely at the top:

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
75yrs (so born abt 1784)
1859
038/ 90
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
76yrs (so born abt 1779)
SUTHERLAND (mother's maiden name)
1855
038/ 50
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
82yrs (so born abt 1778)
MCKAY (Mother's maiden name)
1860
038/ 7
Latheron


There are also a couple of possibilities if your Catherine lived past the 1861 census:

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
78yrs (so born abt 1784)
GORDON (Mother's maiden name)
1862
038/ 21
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
CATHERINE
78yrs (so born abt 1784)
CAMPBELL (Mother's maiden name)
1862
038/ 104
Latheron

Of course none of these may be your Catherine, if she died before 1855....but I have my fingers crossed that you will get lucky  ;)

I too looked at the Chelsea Pensioner records, and there are few too many John Sutherland's to pin him down at this point I think  :-\

As for the Sutherland Police connection...yes is it possible that Donald Sutherland (born 1821) could be another child of John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland (formerly Henderson, nee Sutherland)...but I wouldn't get too attached. There are a LOT of John/Catherine Sutherland couples in Latheron, one being in my own family John Sutherland/Catherine Gunn who married in 1796 in Latheron. We also have Policemen in the family. My John/Catherine Sutherland's grandsons Thomas Rutherford Sutherland (born abt 1848) and Adam Wood Sutherland (born abt 1852) were Police constables in Edinburgh.

If you could get a death certificate for the Policeman Donald Sutherland that named his parents as John Sutherland & Catherine Sutherland (formerly Henderson, nee Sutherland) then maybe you could confirm a connection. Unfortunately he seems to have married before 1855, so no details can be gleaned from that. Also where did you get the reference to the other suspected son William Sutherland who passed away when he was 2?

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Saturday 07 November 20 07:50 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenny this is the reply I received to my message:  "Hi Margaret.....WOW.....the Sutherlands. I am finding it very difficult to find information on them. My grandfather, Frederick Donald Hercules Sutherland (1879-1957) had written down lots of dates and names after speaking to his father, John Sutherland (1847-1918) just before he died......including all the relevant transcripts from the police archives. Frederick was a stipendiary magistrate and his father John was superintendent of police. His father Donald was in the Glasgow police force from 1847 to 1855 before coming to Australia (maybe it was a transfer?). I went to the Glasgow police museum last year and they had no record of him unfortunately. The notes from John (1847 -1918) say: Alexander Sutherland, born in Sutherland died at age 85 years. His wife died at 80 years and she was born in Caithness. They had 2 children , William and John. It says John married Catherine Henderson (nee Sutherland) on 12.3.1818. Does that mean this is her 2nd marriage?. John and Catherine had 3 sons, Alexander, Donald (3.6.1820-21.7.1899) and William who died at 2 years of age.
Donald married  Janet Anderson in Latheron  Parish Church on 30th April 1841. (Iwent there last year as well.......beautiful......now a museum). They had 5 children : Elizabeth b.1843, Catherine b.1845, John b.1847, James Anderson b.1849 and Jessie b.1850. Unfortunately, Janet died around 1853 ( I can't find the death) and Catherine died at 8 years and Jessie at 2 years. Donald remarried and came to Australia with Elizabeth and John and left James in Scotland with his maternal grandparents , the Andersons but he came to Aust. at 16 and was present at the death of his father. So yes, Alexander is a brother of Donalds. Also......According to the notes: "A great aunt of Alexander Sutherland (great grandfather of John Sutherland) was a chieftainess of Clan Sutherland and her health used to be publicly toasted at the Cross in Edinburgh" (how do you verify this?) Thank you for being in touch".   I found the marriage for John and Cathrine/Katherine on the IGI.  On the shipping documents for Donald who arrived here with 100 policemen from the UK on the Exodus in 1855 he lists his parents as John and Catherine, mother living and father dead so we are looking after 1855 for Catherines death................Blimey I just got 038/50 and its her... its her can I email it to you?  Margaret
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 07 November 20 08:03 GMT (UK)
Hey Margaret....ooh so the death in 1855 is her??? That might be a piece of luck!

As registration started in 1855 they recorded a LOT of detail on certificates that year, including all of the persons children's names.....so yes e-mail it to me and let's see what we have got to work with  ;D

The response you have from your message looks extremely promising, but there is a lot of information there to try and verify.....one step at a time  ;)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 07 November 20 08:30 GMT (UK)
Thanks for e-mailing the certificate...what luck  ;D

Transcription:
Catherine Sutherland
Female
76yrs
born Dunbrae, Dunbeath, Parish of Latheron, Caithness-shire
76yrs in Parish of Latheron
Father: Alexander Sutherland, farmer (deceased)
Mother: Janet Sutherland, maiden name Sutherland (deceased)
Married to: John Sutherland, Pensioner (second marriage)
Children:
From 1st Marriage - James Henderson 51yrs, John Henderson 49yrs
From 2nd Marriage - Alexander Sutherland 34yrs, Donald Sutherland 32yrs, William Sutherland (D)
Died: 30th April 1855 at 11pm, at Upper Achavrole, Dunbeath, Parish of Latheron, Caithness-shire
Cause: Rheumatism, 12 years, no medical attendant
Burial place: Churchyard of Latheron
Informant: Alexander Sutherland, nearest relative (present)
Registered: 2nd May 1855, Latheron

So you now have confirmation that Alexander was not an only child, he has a brother Donald Sutherland living and 2 half brothers James & John Henderson.

You also have the next generation back from Catherine Sutherland - her parents Alexander Sutherland and Janet Sutherland (nee Sutherland)....that is a few more Sutherlands to add to the list!

Also......According to the notes: "A great aunt of Alexander Sutherland (great grandfather of John Sutherland) was a chieftainess of Clan Sutherland and her health used to be publicly toasted at the Cross in Edinburgh" (how do you verify this?) Thank you for being in touch".   I found the marriage for John and Cathrine/Katherine on the IGI. 

I think the next step is to order the marriage from Scotland's People to be sure, though it may not have any other details. You may have to follow the Henderson boys to see if you can confirm the name of Catherine's first husband Mr Henderson.

Also, it would be near impossible to link these Sutherlands back to any chieftain or chieftainess of the Clan, there are many fanciful stories passed down the generations about Clan connections, some true...many false....most impossible to verify  ;)

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 07 November 20 08:39 GMT (UK)
Donald remarried and came to Australia with Elizabeth and John and left James in Scotland with his maternal grandparents , the Andersons but he came to Aust. at 16 and was present at the death of his father. So yes, Alexander is a brother of Donalds.

Do you know who Donald Sutherland's second wife was? And if his second marriage was in 1855? If it is, I would look for that certificate on Scotland's People as it will show his parents names and we can confirm once and for all if he is in fact the Donald Sutherland (aged 32yrs) on Catherine's death certificate and therefore a brother to Alexander   ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Saturday 07 November 20 08:40 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenny, thanks again, will try the Hendersons, keep you posted. 
Margaret
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Saturday 07 November 20 08:44 GMT (UK)
ok, good luck  ;)
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 08 November 20 06:29 GMT (UK)
Hey Margaret,

You may have found these already, but if not, below is a probable first marriage for Catherine Sutherland from Scotland's People

KATHARINE SUTHD./JOHN HENDERSON
12/07/1804
038/
10 537
Latheron

There is also a possible birth for Catherine's eldest son James, but I couldn't see anything that would match the next son, John

JAMES HENDERSON son of
JOHN HENDERSON/
M
18/04/1805
038/
10 363
Latheron

I Also saw a possible marriage for Catherine's parents, Alexander & Janet:

ALEXANDER SUTHERLAND
JANNET SUTHD./
20/02/1772
038/
10 485
Latheron

And some possible births for Catherine Sutherland....though there were an awful lot of Alexander Sutherlands in Latheron at the time (9 Alexander Sutherlands married in Latheron between 1770-1785 alone). Indeed, from the notes you have on her second husband John, his father may also have been named Alexander Sutherland  ::)

KATHRINE SUTHERLAND daughter of
ALEXANDER SUTHERLAND/
F
15/02/1778
038/
10 192
Latheron

KATHRINE SUTHERLAND daughter of
ALEXANDER SUTHERLAND/
F
28/10/1776
038/
10 182
Latheron

You do have an awful lot of Sutherlands in your tree....by my reckoning below....


                                                                                                             Alexander Sutherland
                                                                                                                 (not yet proven)
                                                                          John Sutherland
                                                                                                             Unknown
                                   Alexander Sutherland
                                                                                                             Alexander Sutherland
                                                                          Catherine Sutherland

                                                                                                             Janet Sutherland
William Sutherland
                                                                                                             John Sutherland
                                                                                                                 
                                                                          David Sutherland
                                                                                                             Margaret Bain
                                   Jane Sutherland
                                                                                                             James Gunn
                                                                          Margaret Gunn

                                                                                                             Jane Sutherland
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Sunday 08 November 20 06:52 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenny, thanks heaps.  I did get the MC for Catherine and John Sutherland in 1819 04/03/1819 but it only has their names and nothing else. Can send a copy if you like.  Yep, that's exactly how my tree looks.. well without the extra Alexander.  I have been checking the Chelsea Pensioner records but the closest John Sutherland passed away in 1849 and the rest aren't till much later... Not sure if he actually was in the Chelsea Hospital or was Outside.... seeing I can't pick him up anywhere I'm starting to think that may be he never left the hospital.. I wish I could find what Regiment he was in.. there are 2 for Latheron...the Tree is certainly coming together, I am in the process of writing up the story..and bringing the two families into William...many thanks again, your very good.   Cheers Margaret
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 08 November 20 08:03 GMT (UK)
Hmmm...just had a look at the marriage, it says:

John Sutherland and Catharine Sutherland both in Lybster married on 4th March 1819

I think that might be the wrong one....we haven't found any links to Lybster as yet.

Catherine's death certificate suggested that she was born in Dunbeath, and she is still on the Dunbeath Estate in the 1841 and 1851 census returns....so I would expect a mention of Dunbeath or Achavrole at least.

I think you ordered:

JOHN SUTHERLAND
CATHARINE SUTHERLAND/
04/03/1819
038/
10 571
Latheron

rather than:

JOHN SUTHERLAND
KATHARINE SUTHERLAND/
12/03/1818
038/
10 568
Latheron

The 12th March is the date from the notes Donald Sutherland's family have, not 4th March.
 
Unfortunately the two marriages are not on the same page  ::)

I can't see any marriages for a Catherine Henderson in Caithness between 1805 and 1820.

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 08 November 20 08:07 GMT (UK)
Oh, and John Sutherland was a Chelsea Pensioner yes, but he did not stay at the hospital in London. He is in the 1841 census in Caithness, so he was an out-pensioner...and it is possible that he passed away in 1849  ;)

1841 census - Tormore, Latheron, Caithness
John Suther'd 60yrs Army P(ensioner) born in county
Catharina Suther'd 55yrs born in county
Alex Suther'd 20yrs Shoemaker born in county
Alex Suther'd 15yrs MS (male servant) born in county
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 08 November 20 08:40 GMT (UK)
Just for your information....there are 2 other John Sutherland's in Latheron Parish Caithness in the 1841 census, who are also Army Pensioners....

1841 census - Nottingham, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland    55yrs Army P(ensioner) Born Scotland
Elizabeth Sutherland    30yrs Born Scotland
Margaret Sutherland    15yrs Born Caithness
James Sutherland    10yrs Born Caithness
William Sutherland    8yrs Born Caithness
John Sutherland    5yrs Born Caithness
N K    2 Weeks Born Caithness

1841 census - Mountpleasant, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland    55yrs Army P(ensioner) Born Caithness
Ann Sutherland            35yrs Born Caithness
George Sutherland    8yrs Born Caithness
Ann Sutherland            6yrs Born Caithness

So it is equally possible that either of these men died in 1849  :-\

Were there any other details on the Chelsea Pensioner record?

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 08 November 20 08:47 GMT (UK)
Actually, perhaps not...they both seem to still be there in the 1851 census...ages are a bit out though  ;)

1851 census - Ashbeg, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland Head 57yrs Chelsea Pensioner b. Kildonan, Sutherland
Elizabeth Sutherland Wife 43yrs b. Fearn, Ross
Margaret Sutherland Dau 25yrs House Servant b. Latheron, Caithness
William Sutherland Son 18yrs Ag Lab b. Latheron, Caithness
John C Sutherland Son 15yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Catherine M Sutherland Dau 9yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Dau 6yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Hector H Sutherland Son 3yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Elizabeth Sutherland Dau 4mths b. Latheron, Caithness

1851 census - Village Road, Lybster, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland Head 70yrs Chelsea Pensioner b. Kildonnan, Sutherland
Christian Mackenzie Wife 57yrs Spinster b. Rogart, Sutherland (not sure what is going on here?)
George Sutherland Son 19yrs Journeyman Shoemaker b. Halkirk, Caithness
George Sinclair Lodger 23yrs Journeyman Mason b. Thurso, Caithness

Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: mweston on Sunday 08 November 20 11:34 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenny, ok, bugger on the marriage cert... have used all my credits will have to wait a while now.  Thanks for the info on John Sutherland will look more into that.  Cheers Margaret
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: JenClark on Sunday 08 November 20 20:55 GMT (UK)
no worries, easily done....as I've mentioned before Sutherlands are thick in these parts ;)

FYI there are also other John Sutherland Chelsea pensioners/Army pensioners that are born in Latheron but living elsewhere on the census returns...did the pensioner you found that died in 1849 live in Latheron or elsewhere? Would be great to have the details so that we can try and prove or discount it.

Jenny
Title: Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
Post by: countingnames on Monday 16 November 20 17:10 GMT (UK)
Hello,
I am currently trying to track down some of my ancestors.
 
My 3rd great-grandfather is Peter Sutherland, born in Berriedale, Latheron in 1816. He was married to Jane Murray in 1855 ('in the manner of the Free Church of Scotland'). He was a farm-owner and later a maltser. He died in Putleneytown, Caithness, Scotland in 1877.
 
I am currently finding it difficult to find information about his parents.
 
From the death and marriage certificate of Peter Sutherland: I know that his parents are John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland (maternal name: Sutherland). I know John Sutherland was a farmer/fisherman. I also know that the parents were both dead before the end of 1855.
 
I think I found a 1841 census entry listing John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland living together with their son Peter Sutherland in Parkside, Latheron. However there is a 35 year age gap between the John Sutherland (90 years old) and Catherine Sutherland (55 years old) listed in this record and also a 65 year gap between John Sutherland (90 years old) and his potential son Peter Sutherland (25 years old, my great grand-grandfather). There is also a Catherine Bain listed in the census record, however I know she is not the mother of Peter, given she died after 1855, although she too was married to a John Sutherland (listed as a shoemaker in Catherine Bain's death certificate).
 
I am wondering if anyone knows anything that can point me into the right direction, since I am currently stuck in my research. In particular I would like to know who the parents of John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland are, so I can continue to expand my family tree.