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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 08 January 07 11:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
I'm a bit confused about the nature of the entries in the Indian Army Quarterly Lists, which are one of the resources on ancestry.co.uk.
Looking up a Major Pomeroy HOLLAND-PRYOR (a surname that today comes into my family research for the first time), there are 3 separate entries, with slightly different detail, but all dated 1st January 1912.
There seem to be references to dates in 1905, 1908 and 1910, yet in the marriage certificate of 1904 that I have in front of me - where he is the father of the bride at a London Paddington Registry Office - his occupation is given as "Wine Shipper".
Can anyone explain what all this might mean?
Very best wishes,
keith
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N.B Just had a look on Google, and it looks very much as if this individual became a Major-General later on - so I'm even more confused about why his daughter should have put him down as shipping wine for a living...
Keith
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There's a WW1 medal card for him as well, which gives his rank as Brevet Colonel /Temporary Brigadier General.
The reference to "wine shipper" is from 1904.
Could it be that the first army reference to him, 1905, is his commission date (ie entry into the army?)
Neil
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Hi Keith,
I'm not sure why his occupation was given as wine shipper :-\ I have found his obituary in the Times that shows he had a distinguished career in both the British and the Indian army.
The obit is from the Times dated Monday March 21st 1955
Hope this helps,
Arf :)
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Neil,
It appears as though, in my reading of the Indian Army Quarterly List that a date of 16th November 1887 is given as his first commission. Plus, he's given a birth date of 7th July 1866. So the "wine shipper" sounds rather odd - maybe his 29-year-old spinster daughter had had too much of the red stuff herself when trying to remember what her dear old dad did for a living - hardly likely, though...
And Arf, thanks so much for that very interesting obit from the Times, apart from supplying a valuable date of death, and confirming his date of commission and date of birth of course...
keith
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I would suggest that he had a daughter with a sense of humour. In her mind everyone would know what her father actually did and so when asked for his occupation by the officiating clergyman she referred to his propensity for the fruit of the vine and was taken literally.
David
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Actually,
This could be a case of not seeing the wood for the trees, for quite obviously (now I see it!) the famous military man, born in 1866, could not possibly have been the father of a daughter who was married aged 29 in 1904. Back to the drawing board, but strange that there may have been 2 individuals with such a striking name...
keith
Perhaps there were two generations of Pomeroy's in the same HOLLAND-PRYOR family, and the Major-General Pomeroy(b. 1866) was brother to Muriel Gawler HOLLAND-PRYOR (b. circa 1875) - and their father Pomeroy was indeed a wine seller (almost typed in the word "cellar" in my confusion, and willingness to clutch at straws)
I bet all the genealogy for this family is tucked away in Indian Army records, or in other Commonwealth countries...
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Hi,
I am thankful for your hard work on my great-grandfather. Sir Major-General Pomeroy Holland-Pryor as I hadn't found his obituary before. Keith if I can help you with any further enquiries I'm only to happy to answer any questions.
Tara
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Hi, Tara, and welcome to Rootschat!
It's been nearly two years since this thread was last active, and I need to refresh myself with the details of the marriage certificate of Major John Fortune NOTT. He was the father of my gt-grandmother's second husband Edward Vernon NOTT, and this was his second marriage. His bride's father on the certificate is given as Pomeroy HOLLAND-PRYOR.
John Fortune NOTT was born in 1847, and emigrated to Montreal, where he became some kind of broker. When war broke out in Canada in the 1880's he joined the Canadian Rifles and thereafter was referred to as Major John NOTT. His first wife must have died some time after 1881, for in 1891 he is back in England, living in Twickenham on his own. He died in the early 1930's in the Kingston, Surrey area.
I would be most interested to hear of any details you might be able to give me about your great-grandfather and his family.
If you'd prefer to contact me using the Personal Message facility on my profile, then please use that, or simply post a reply on this thread...
Very best wishes,
keith
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Hi Tara:
I have just found out that Pomeroy Holland-Pryor was married to Agnes St John Moir who is my 1st cousin 2 times removed (so somewhat distant but not that far). I have them in my family tree which asks for his birthplace. Do you have that information? (I can't find him on www.freebmd.org.uk, www.fibis.org or www.indiafamily.bI.uk so presume he wasn't born in England or India.) Do you have the date of his death? The obituary that was posted says "died recently" and it was printed on March 21 1955 so presumably it was sometime just before then. Thanks very much for your help.
Peter
PS. if it hasn't already been beaten to death I wonder if the wine shipper shouldn't have been wine sipper!
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Hello Peter,
That is fascinating news and I am delighted to meet a member of my extended family. Whose descendant are you?
I look forward to hearing from you and amazing too!
Tara
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Tara,
Hi again, and did you find out whether you are in any way connected with Muriel Gawler HOLLAND-PRYOR...?
We last communicated nearly 2 months ago; PM me if you prefer...
keith
p.s. Have recently discovered that her husband John Fortune NOTT seems to have been left behind (along with his 4 year old brother) in England when his parents emigrated to Australia in 1854. Still haven't got to the bottom of that particular puzzle...
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Hi Keith,
Many many sincere apologies, we had christmas and other events going on so things were put on the back burner for a while. I am waiting on some further thought from my mother, I will remind her.
Thanks and I will be in touch,
Tara
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Tara,
Look forward to hearing from you in due course! I think I may have mentioned too - in an e-mail to you, perhaps - that a P. HOLLAND-PRYOR was the informant of the death of John Fortune NOTT in December 1930 at 199, Richmond Rd., Kingston.
He was Muriel Gawler's brother. Maybe he was living with them there at the time...
Regards, keith
I'd really quite like to know what happened to Muriel Gawler after 1930, she would only have been about 55 years old then....
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Hi Keith,
I wouldn't have thought that he was living with them. I know he lived not far away.
Tara
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Tara,
So then he must have been in close contact with them or at least his sister, to have been the one to have reported the death. Will be very interested to hear more in due course.
What's a strange coincidence is that my own home was only about a mile away, from about 1960 until just over 2 years ago, and in the 1960's I must have walked past 199, Richmond Rd. every time I went to watch my local team Kingstonian play at their home ground near Latchmere Drive, not realising that a member of my family had lived and died there 30 years previously. (No football stadium any more, just a housing estate today )
keith
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Hi Tara:
Agnes St John Moir (Pomeroy's wife) and I are descended from John Richard Fraser and his cousin Mary Fraser both from Jedburgh, Roxburghshire. They had 9 children including Jane Margaret b. 18 Jan 1840 in Calcutta, died 26 Dec 1920. She married William Moir in 1864 and they had 7 children including Agnes St John. I am descended from John Richard and Mary's second son, John Richard b. 11 Feb 1835 in Calcutta. Our common ancestor was Agnes's grandfather and my great great grandfather. How are you related to Redvers?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Peter
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Hello all,
I have the file open at last!
My Great Great Grandfather Holland P Prior married Clarissa Soden. He wa a wine merchant!
My Great Great Great Grandfather is John Gawler Prior, he was listed as a Merchant in London in 1734.
My Grandfather is Redvers, the Beachmaster and submariner.
The Moirs were based in Edinburgh and India - were you born in Edinburgh or India?
Look forward to reading your thoughts on this
Kind regards
Tara
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Tara:
The information I have recently received from a cousin indicate:
Agnes married Pomeroy, a general in the 13th Bengal Lancers, in 1891 in Calcutta, India. Their son (only one child noted) was Redvers Michael Courtney Holland-Pryor who later changed his name to simple Prior. He was an MP, RN Commander and ?diamond broker?. He divorced Sybil Nairn in 1946 (no marriage date). Their children were Muriel, Ian and Avril. I have a blank for the name of Pomeroy’s second wife with no children noted.
Best wishes,
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I didn't know that he was a diamond trader. That is new to me. He was definitely all the above and more! including a conservative mp for Birmingham!
I am a granddaughter from his second marriage to Winifred.
Very interesting - thanks
Tara
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Hello all,
Has anyone started piecing together a family tree? How far back do your records go?
I note with interest the name of one of my Aunt's Muriel....
Looking forward to reading your responses,
Kind regards
Tara
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Hi Tara:
Do you have the following information:
1. a place of birth for Pomeroy and a date of death?
2. a month and day for his marriage to Agnes?
3. date of death for Agnes?
4. Winifred's last name and bdm info for her
Thanks in advance.
Best wishes,
Peter
P.S. my cousin had ? around diamond trader so he may have or may not have been one.
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Hi again, Tara, and thanks for all that information...
I still can't work out where Muriel Gawler HOLLAND-PRIOR fits in, assuming she was born in 1875. Your 2-times gt-grandfather seems to have been born a bit too early on to have been her wine merchant father, as on her 1904 wedding certificate.
Did the trading in wine run in the family for more than one generation, or am I getting my Maths wrong?
Regards, keith
p.s. What I think I'm getting at is, are you sure you mean 1734 as a date for your gt-gt-gt-grandfather being a merchant in London. Did you perhaps mean 1834, in which case, things would fit together much better
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Hi Keith,
Thanks for your thoughts...
I will have to open the file again... but Maybe Pomeroy had a sister which would fit in. That I have not looked into.
Wine merchant seems to be a trade for only one generation but equally previous generations have been listed as merchant.
Kind regards
Tara
Dear Peter,
Thanks for your email. I do have the information but am wondering why you aren't sharing more???
Kind regards
Tara
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Tara:
Thanks for the reply. As noted, my information came from my cousin. I quoted what he had given me so you now have all the information I have. I don't have any more to give but will be happy to share some of the Fraser family information if you would like it but am not sure this is the appropriate place and suspect that we should be communicating directly with each other. If you send me you e-mail, I will send you some information.
Kind regards,
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Thanks for replying. I do sadly find it strange that you have shared so much information on the Holland-Prior family, our family, if that is right and yet not find it appropriate to share the Fraser history via rootschat.
If you feel like sharing any further infomation you may do so via (*)
Kind regards
Tara
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Dear Tara and others on this thread
I think Redvers Michael Courtney Holland-Pryor was my Grand-father, Avril is my mother. Trying very hard to remember stuff I was told as a child. I was named after his first wife Sybil.
(Sybil) Fiona Gander
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Hi, Fiona, and welcome to Rootschat!
Good to get a third Rootschatter into the mix on this thread. As you can see, this has been one of the most frustrating ones I have started, as the HOLLAND/PRIOR's et al are a complex family. Would be nice to eventually get a handle on where Muriel Gawler HOLLAND/PRIOR fits in exactly. Not a blood relative, or an ancestor of mine, but would like to know who it was that my gt-grandmother's second father in law married.
John Fortune NOTT subsequently suffered a double tragedy in 1914 - and not one caused by The Great War in this case - in that two of his sons died prematurely in their thirties within a few months of one another of TB. And I often wonder what became of Muriel Gawler NOTT after 1930, when J.F.NOTT died himself...
regards, keith
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Dear Fiona,
I am delighted to meet you online. I will send you my number.
Best regards
Tara
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Keith
I can confirm that Muriel is Pomeroy Holland-Pryor's sister. I can only confirm this now due to information that came to the family not long ago.
I hope this assists your search.
Should you be digging further into the Holland-Pryor family I hope you will pass this information along.
Thank you
Wishing you a prosperous 2011
Tara
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Tara,
Thanks very much for that last piece of information. And thanks to everyone else who has come in and contributed on this thread (relatives of yours, if quite distant in some cases!): I have now to my satisfaction pinpointed where Muriel Gawler HOLLAND-PRYOR fits in...
She was sister to your great-grandpa Pomeroy, the subsequently eminent military man. Their father, bearing the same name, your gt-gt-grandpa, was indeed a wine shipper or merchant. And his father, your gt-gt-gt-grandpa was a John Gawler PRIOR a merchant who perhaps diversified in other commodities as well as wine.
Looking again at the marriage certificate of 1904 for the Registry Office in Paddington, one of the witnesses was a Clarissa HOLLAND-PRYOR, who presumably must have been the Clarissa (nee SODEN) whom you mention, mother to Muriel Gawler and her brother Pomeroy the soldier, and she was of course your gt-gt-grandmother.
Muriel, b.circa 1875, must have got her middle name of Gawler from her own grandfather John Gawler PRIOR.
By the way, the address given by the bride on that day on 20th July 1904 was 62, Talbot Road, Paddington, and perhaps this might ring significant bells within your family.
Many thanks for all this,
regards, keith
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Dear Keith,
Thank you for this information, it is helpful. I am very curious why you are doing so much research on Fiona and my family when you do not have a blood connection..
I am really sorry to raise this again as I just wish to understand why....
I look forward to hearing from you,
Kind regards
Tara
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Hello, I am just dropping in to see if someone claims Helen Sybil Holland-Pryor of Devonshire Lodge, Basingstoke in 1920 ? Part of a research into local lost houses :)