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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: liverpool annie on Friday 12 January 07 01:59 GMT (UK)
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Most people know how I go gaga over WW1 soldiers .......... but this soldier is an enigma ........
It all started when I got this email from France ....
25 years ago, when I was General Secretary of the town hall of LA COUTURE, a village between ARMENTIERES and BETHUNE, just on the western front, I found, among old coins and a button of british trench coat, a piece of metal engraved in english.
Since that day, I search in the british cemeteries of my sector the grave of the man (there are many of them near my home)
In fact, with help of members of the forum and of a new friend from minnesota one day I see I mistaked, the man survived the conflict an go back alive at home Watford / Walford Road, Anfield Liverpool
The memory of this men, that I do not know haunt my spirit, my best wish is to restore the wrist tag to his descent, if it exist, that is very very important for me.
Of course, no money in this history, just to be in peace with my soul, this medal is not mine, it must go back in his real place.
Do you think someone is able to take, in a first time few photos of the house of Stead where he goes back after been discharged in 1918 ?
The man in question is ...........
2nd Lt Robert William Stead MGC ... I have a photo of what looks like a dog tag of some sort or a wrist tag with his name and regiment and also he was C of E ..........
I have copies of his service record ...... but would love to be able to give my French friend peace of mind and see if we can get this tag back to it's rightful owners !!
I'd appreciate all the help we can get !! I have asked on the Lancashire board - if the street is still in exsistence .... all thoughts are welcome !!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,206951.from1168565017/topicseen.html#msg1058616
Thanking you in advance
Annie :) :)
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Hi Annie,
I agree with Retiringtype in the other message that the road name is probably Watford Road http://tinyurl.com/ud84t , behind Arkles Lane which means it's just around the corner from the Anfield Ground.
If I'm passing any time during daylight I'll take a photograph, do we have any idea of the house number?
Although this aerial photograph is a few years old, it gives you an idea of where the street is in relation to the football ground and Stanley Park http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=17672.msg250208 the road near the bottom of the picture, running off the right side of it will be Arkles Lane and parallel to it, but just off the picture will be Watford Road.
The place to advertise for any family members still living will be the Old Pals Section of the Liverpool Echo http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/expats/ which is free to post on there and many people have been lucky in making contacts.
Hope this helps a bit Annie.
Mary
Amended because I typed the wrong name of the road. Sorry guys, not feeling 100% today
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Annie,
This story gives me goosebumps. Very interested to see how this turns out. Keep us posted.
Kath
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Thank you Mary !
A photo would be great !! ( or whoever goes that way first !! :) :) :) )
I'm really hoping Rootschatter's will give us some clues Kath !! I'd love to be able to find his relatives !!
Annie :)
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hello
Watford Road is still there , it backs onto Arkles Lane and runs between Anfield Road and Priory Road . I live off Priory Road
Doreen
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Now Annie, you will have to keep posting to one thread instead of two, now Doreen doesn't know that you are interested in memories such as street parties and the Coronation and such, she may well know people who were around in the street at that time.
Hi Doreen, how are you?
Mary
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OK Miss !! ;D ;D
I'll say thank you on the other one !!!
Hi Doreen I'd love to hear anything you know about Watford Road ? do you know anything about the families there ?
Annie :)
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Hi Annie
Presumably you have seen this thread on the GWF. It seems Michel has recruited another sleuth before you!
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t44137.html
A ;)
(Hope you feel better soon Mary)
(Naughty Annie for double-posting!!)
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hello folks
will see what I can find out and ask if any old fotys are knocking around
Doreen
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Hi Annie
Presumably you have seen this thread on the GWF. It seems Michel has recruited another sleuth before you!
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t44137.html
A ;)
(Hope you feel better soon Mary)
(Naughty Annie for double-posting!!)
My mission is to find the family if possible .... that's why I said I didn't need the Military stuff !!
My hand is ready for the ruler AR ..... but I thought I'd find out if the street existed first !! ;) can it be added here do you think ?? what do you call it " merge topics " :-\
Thank you Doreen .... I appreciate the help !! ... I would love to find out if the Stead's were an old family in the area
Annie :)
PS But here's the medal card
Stead, Robert William
Liverpool Regiment
1466
Private
Machine Gun Corps
22397
Lance Corporal
Machine Gun Corps
Second Lieutenant
Date
1914-1920
Private Robert William Stead 1466 1/6 KLR trans 22397 MGC
Admitted 15 Field Ambulance 6/5/15 (contusion). Discharged to duty 15/5/15. Appointed paid L/Cpl 28/8/15. Attd 165 Brigade MGC Company 20/2/16. Promoted A/Cpl while attd 29/3/16. Discharged to TF 18/5/16 and re-enlisted in MGC 19/5/16 with new number 22397. (1/6 KLR Casualty Ledger)
Served :
Liverpool Regiment 1466 Private
Machine Gun Corps 22397 Lance Corporal
Machine Gun Corps Second Lieutenant 28/01/1918
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hello Annie
there are quite a lot of oldies in our area so someone just may know of the family the houses are quite big and would have had big famies in at the time,
Doreen
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Hi Doreen !
I had a few friends that lived over that way when I was at school ... I remember the big houses !!
I've checked Anfield cemetery and Toxteth and West Derby ...... I wish Liverpool records office was on line !! where else would be a good place to look ?
Annie :)
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Checking through Kelly's Directories would show when the family stopped living at that address.
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His father was William Harley Stead ...... do you have access to Kelly's Bearkat please ??
'cos I couldn't find them in 1901 !! :-\
Annie :)
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There are various directories here, Annie - unless you have already looked?
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/
A ;)
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I looked there A ... and didn't find anything ! ... but that doesn't mean it's not there ?? :P :P
I can't even find the family in 1901 !! ::) ::)
Annie :)
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I've posted a request for directory look ups on the Liverpool forum. Good helpful people over there and some of them have copies of directories.
http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=16716#16716
Mary
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Birth of Robert William stead June qtr 1896 West Derby 8b 451
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Thanks Mary ! good idea !!
Annie :)
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Oh my this is really exciting!
I would love to know if you find some one who is related to this man.
Good luck.
Kind regards Chris
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I was sort of hoping that this isn't him http://www.stead-steedons.co.uk/probate/192b/p1926b18.htm , but I checked the GRO deaths and there is a Robert William Stead age 30 registered in Liverpool 4Q 1926 8b p73. The age is right.
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It would be a shame if this is him but he still had time to have fathered some children.......
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I was just going to say .... but he was married .... so maybe there was issue !!
Thanks !
Annie :)
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If by any chance somebody finds anything on any children .... we'd best NOT put it on the thread in case of living relatives !!
Thanks
Annie :) :) :)
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Marriage of father William Harley Stead 1892 1Q West Derby 8b 649
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Why can't I find 1901 ?? ??? ??? ???
Weird .... even on soundex !! ::)
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Oooh Mary !
Here a reply to your post !!
1911 Directory
William H Stead Master Mariner 67 Watford Rd Anfield
Now ............. where do I go from here ?? ::) ::)
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Marriage of Robert W Stead / Elizabeth N Grant December qtr 1921 ref West Derby 8B 353
lancs BMD
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1921
STEAD Robert W GRANT Elizabeth N Anfield, St. Simon & St. Jude Liverpool 2003WD/3/88
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Hi
Marriage of William H Stead
1892 Walton St Mary Liverpool
William H Stead
Emily Richards
2012WD/16/157
Hope This helps in some way
Regards
Iria
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hello
the marriage sounds like it would be the one in St Simon and St Judes as that was on Anfield Road before it was knocked down to build a nursing home also I think it was on the corner of Watford rd
Doreen
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Looks like the National Probate Index that retiringtype found was correct !! ;) :D
Robert's widow was Elizabeth Neil Stead !!
Many thanks Carol and Iria !!
now as William was a sailor and probably away I'll look for Emily in 1901 !! :)
Thanks to you too Doreen ... starting to make a bit of sense huh ??
Annie :)
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I have search results on NA http://www.1901census.nationalarchives.gov.uk/main.asp?wci=welcome
for Emily Stead aged 38 and Robert W Stead aged 5, both born Liverpool, in Walton-on-the Hill in 1901. No sign of them at all on A****try, as far as I can see.
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I spoke too soon didn't I .... about it all coming together ?? ::)
I can't find them either retiringtype !! ..... GOT TO BE mistranscribed .............. but I'm still looking !! :) :)
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Hi Annie,
Have a look at....
Robet W Head (grandson) with the same details as Retiringtype found,
Julia :D
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Hi Julia !
Do you mean he is under the name " Head " ?
Annie :)
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Annie,
have you thought to give these good people a shout:
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/
Thudders
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Yes Annie
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Julia ! .......... it's been one of those days for me ! ...... I just can't see him !! :-\ :-\ :-\
Could you possibly give me the resource number please ??
Thudders .... Mary put a post on there regarding the street ....... but I didn't post a thread about the rest ...
I wanted to see if Rootschatters could do it !! :) :) :) ::) ::)
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I see it now Annie. You can always rely on **** A****try to mistranscribe in amazing ways.
He's listed as Robet W Head !!!!
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Hi Annie,
I had a post taken off the other day, so I am trying to be carefull at what I put down :-[
rg13, 3455, 97, 17 - 1901
you should see on A****, RobEt W Head, mum - Emily
Born 1896 liverpool Lancashire, grandson,
living Walton On The Hill
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Wow Julia !! thank you so much ......... I've been looking at the image and it definitely says "Head " so that was the enumerator's faullt not A's !!
Thanks to you too RT !!
Now we just have to sort that family out ..... :-\
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grrr - I'd looked under Robert HEAD. I hadn't thought of Robet.
I would have transcribed it as HEAD too, but I think it says STEAD. The ST is like the St in St Judes.
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Thudders !
Are you a member of
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/
I'm not and I was just told somebody is looking for "Stead " on there !! :) :) :)
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OK it's a badly written Stead but there's no excuse for Robet Well done Julia - good sleuthing!
There's lots of inlaws in this census entry too - a rich seam.
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This is fascinating - good luck!
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Emily's maiden name was Richards .....
the page before starts with the Cottrill family 70 Rockfield Road
Then there's all these seemingly seperate families .... so how could Robert be a classed as a Grandson ..... ?? or am I being obtuse ??
I still can't believe you got that Julia !! ;) ;)
Annie :)
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so how could Robert be a classed as a Grandson ..... ??
Emily is listed as "Daur" so I'd assume that the nearest "Head" above her on the page is her parent. Which takes us to Elizabeth ... Pritchard? Could be "Richards" badly transcribed by the enumerator??
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Hi Annie,
Not that you will probably need the following info' but i'll pop it down just in case.....
1861 4 lower red "cop" street in
St Mary, leicester.
William Harley SteedS b 1857 (daughter)?
Head William - 60yrs
Fanny Maria 23yrs
Angela - 18yrs
1871 In Leicester
WM Harley Stead 14yrs Nephew and is down as a sailor
Living with the Javis family at - 2 Wilbraham Street Liverpool
A possibility...
1881 aboard the "Monarch"
William Henry Stead but age is 24yrs and born in Nottingham
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These are the census Julia found !!
1861
RG9/2295 Folio 52 Page 12
1871
RG10/3756 Folio 118 Page 1
1881
RG11/5636 Folio 9 Page 15
Annie :)
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hello Annie
just catching up with messages , noticed Rockfield Road is mentioned , that is at the other end of Anfield Road next to Blessington Road were I lived for 11 years and is only a short walk from Watford Rd , have asked around this morning to see if anyone remembers the family but no luck up to now
Doreen
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Well .... I've been through the births between 1921 - 1928 and can't find any with the mothers maiden name of Grant !! the only one that is a possibility is with the maiden name of Stead in 1926 !!
( I only say possibility ..... as one of mine had the same name because the father - when asked for mother's name - gave his own mother !! )
I wish somebody was a member of Liverpool Genealogy and could look up the member who's researching Stead :-\ :-\ :-\
Otherwise .... I'm stuck !! :P
Thanks Doreen for your input and for looking !!
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I looked for more info on sister Norah - can't see a marriage for a Nora Stead in Liverpool from 1912 - 18.
The only birth I can find is for a Nora May Stead recorded in West Derby in 1893, but the 1901 census leads me to think it's not her & I can't find one in 1894 in Liverpool ::)
Otherwise .... I'm stuck !! :P
Don't you dare Girlfriend ;D - What about an obit in the local paper if he did die 1930 it would mention something wouldn't it ;)
Wendi :)
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Well PSB very kindly PM'd me the email address of the person researching "Stead " on the Liverpool Genealogy board .... so I've sent one off !!
Fingers crossed !!
Now then Miss Wendi ..... I guess I need to get in touch with the Liverpool Echo for an obit huh ?? ???
Ok ! I'll try it !! ...... ( me pipes are frozen this morning - 0 degrees here ..... and so is my brain !! :P :P )
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Frozzed pipes oooch :(
I guess I need to get in touch with the Liverpool Echo for an obit huh ?? ???
And while your at it ask 'em if they'll print a "looking for" letter if you email 'em one ;D
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To be honest I didn't want to do a "looking for" letter yet ............... ???
I was hoping we could have a RootsChat coup ..... so to speak !! :)
but if we haven't fathomed this out in the next few days .... I will !! :)
Now I have to look for that obit !! ::)
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I just got a reply back from Liverpool Genealogy !! ....... but it has to be snail mail - no email address .... ::)unless somebody can find a telephone number !! - do you think that would be ok to look it up ??
I'd like your thoughts please !!
Annie :)
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hello Annie
just a quickie
have just found this on 192.com
liverpool genealogy
01704562792
southport merseyside
what do you think??
Doreen
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Well done Annie.
If it's an individual you are looking for, try this: http://www.infobel.com/uk/
Great stuff!!
Thud
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Thanks Doreen and Thudders .... I'm looking into the telephone angle !! :) :)
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southport merseyside
Doreen
Blimey and I was in Southport yesterday!! I take a day off and just look what I miss!! If you decide you want Doreen's find contacted, let me know the name and I'll give them a call.
So yes it would seem that the marriage which Carole found is likely to be the right one, but doesn't seem to have lasted, which is a shame.
I still think your best bet is a message on the icliverpool (Liverpool Echo) for any descendants. An obit is fairly unlikely to bring results, us Brits don't seem to eulogise in the same way as our American cousins and give all family history in the paper when somebody dies, usually it's just the time of the funeral and a bible quote. No harm in checking of course, but the Echo won't do the work for you, it'll have to be a visit to the Record Office to check the film, if anybody's going.
I wonder if Elizabeth remarried .... but that's a lot of years to work through.
Freddiebean, just wanted to mention that your Avatar has got the copyright info under it, that covers you for that, so to avoid having any of your look ups deleted just make sure you type up entries, so that they are your own transcription, and don't copy and paste, that's the no-no. The references are always helpful, so do as you did and include them too.
Mary
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I know we aren't following backwards but just in case the enumerator in 1901 got it right, I wondered whether Emily had been married previously and had actually started life as a Cottrill, but it wouldn't seem so, she seems to have been a Richards in 1891 if I have the right family, and no Cottrills in sight anyway. I'm suspecting the reason why they have been enumerated in 1901 as "daughter" and grandchildren, is because they are still living in her parents house while they aren't present themselves.
It seems as if she may have had an interesting life herself ....
1891 - 74 Rockfield Road, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool
Robert Richards Head M 56 Insurance? Agent ?? Lancashire
Anora Wife M 50 Liverpool
Emily daur S 28 Professor of Music Liverpool
Waltor son M 25 Ship's Steward Liverpool
Robert W Son S 21 Insurance AGent New York USA
Alice daur 17 New York USA
RG12/2979; Folio 61; Page 22
Writing isn't so good so not positive about the father's occupation and I have no idea where in Lancashire his birthplace is. But at least it confirms the 1901 details.
Mary
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Hi Mary A
1881 Insurance agent...born Exeter Devon...
rg/11 3665 /44 page 15...living inStanfield Rd EVERTON
Tazzie
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1881 Insurance agent...born Exeter Devon...
Ha ha! somewhere Lancashire indeed!!! Well that's an enumerator for you ;D ;D ;D
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Just checked 1938 Kelly's. There is a Mrs Elizabeth Stead in Gwendoline Street, Liverpool 8 but I doubt that's her (it's the wrong area). Occupant of "The Cot" in Grange Lane Gateacre is Edward Powell junr.
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hello Mary
the address is 2 chelsea court
lulworth road
southport
Doreen
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The only birth I can find is for a Nora May Stead recorded in West Derby in 1893, but the 1901 census leads me to think it's not her & I can't find one in 1894 in Liverpool ::)
Blimey this will teach me to read more carefully - Wendi, do I take it you ain't a scouser then?
Nora(h) was 7 in 1901 so 1893 would be more or less perfect, I suppose depending on the particular dae of her birthday and West Derby IS the Registration District which would cover Everton/Anfield and a large part of Liverpool, so that's perfect.
Mary
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Wendi, do I take it you ain't a scouser then?
Your right :D but I was more going by the fact that the census said "Liverpool"........if we are going further a field there is also a Norah Stead 1884 registered in Ormskirk - but with no middle name. They are my two best bets, but I can't find a marriage anyway :-\
They must have some next of kin somewhere ::)
Wendi :)
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Noooooooo, West Derby is PERFECT!!! That is the correct one.
Now let's see how many votes I get for my alternative choice of activities for this afternoon ......
I can either
1. Take a trip to Anfield and photograph 67 Watford Road and even continue and get a picture of Grange Lane, Gateacre, although I have not idea whether "The Cot" still exists.
OR
2. I can do some laundry ...............
Guess I'm going to see you all later!
Bye for now
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Well Monty and me went on an adventure, Monty? my Chrissie pressie from mum, Monty (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10151&productId=178851&categoryId=33962)
The first one is 67 Watford Road. The church is St. Stephens, Gateacre, I wonder whether Robert and Elizabeth might have attended there and would his funeral have been from there?
After that although I found Grange Cottages and Grange Mews, I couldn't find one with the name The Cot. So these being of about the right age, here is a picture to give you an idea that there is a small part of Gateacre and Belle Vale which is still villagey. They are very close to Paradise Row and Soarer Cottages, there are pictures of them on this site. Gateacre (http://www.liverpool.ndo.co.uk/gatsoc/) and you will also find out about the Wilson Memorial Fountain which stands on Gateacre Village Green, which is my last photograph. So much for a "Green", my photograph was taken while stopped at the traffic lights!!!
I wondered whether it might have been a house which came with a job, but I think the details in the Probate Index would suggest that this was a step up for them from Everton.
Mary
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And the other two, top one is Grange Cottages with Grange Mews behind.
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Mary
was just about to get a foty myself was waiting for battery to recharge it would have helped if I had plugged it in , when I decided to have a look at the site and you have just saved me a walk up Priory Road good foty
Doreen
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Oh Mary and Girls and boys ( RT) !! ........................... look at what you've been doing while I was sleeping !!
My keyboard is flooded ....... I grew up in Belle Vale and used to go to St Stephens as a kid !! :) :) :) Photographs are wonderful Mary .... thank you so much and thank you to Monty too .... he looks wonderful !! ( except he doesn't have long hair !! ;) ;) ;)
Anfield was a stomping ground for saggin' school ..... all my friends lived there !!
Wow ! so now I have to look properly again at what's been written ! .... thank you all so much for doing this .... you guys are great !! and Thudders has been great too in the background .... my friend will be very pleased I know !!
Annie :) :)
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This message is intended for all the people who, with Annie, take part in research concerning Robert William STEAD.
Thank you, Thank you, From the bottom of my heart,Thank you ; I knew that one day my obstinacy would be rewarded.
my friendly and sincere thoughts go toward each one among you.
Michel
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It's lovely to hear from you Michel, welcome to Rootschat, we're a friendly bunch.
I've no idea whether we might find a descendant but I know one of your wishes was to see where he had lived and now you have photographs, so that's nice.
Annie, I think you should be posting on the Liverpool Echo messageboard, I know people have had some luck there.
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/expats/oldpals/
I don't think links to websites work though, so use an email address carefully!!
Mary
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Good to see you Michel ! and welcome to RootsChat !! :)
What do you think ? are we getting somewhere ?
I'm hoping that we will find a relative who will be able to cherish the name tag - as you have done all these years !!
We are very happy to help if we can !!
Annie :) :)
PS OK Mary !! ;) ;)
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Annie and Mary,
what a fabulous site, what a fabulous team, you maked in few hours for STEAD and me more that I maked since 25 years.
God bless you
very sincerely
Michel KNOCKAERT, from LA COUTURE
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May I just add my thanks to all those who have kept me glued to this thread...fascinating stuff...and the generosity shown by all just blows me away...well done :) :) :)
Derek.
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Did you notice in 1891 .... the two youngest were born in the US ?? ??? ...... but then I'm going off on a tangent again aren't I ??
1891 - 74 Rockfield Road, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool
Robert Richards Head M 56 Insurance? Agent ?? Lancashire
Anora Wife M 50 Liverpool
Emily daur S 28 Professor of Music Liverpool
Waltor son M 25 Ship's Steward Liverpool
Robert W Son S 21 Insurance AGent New York USA
Alice daur 17 New York USA
RG12/2979; Folio 61; Page 22
Might be interesting to pursue after we've found Robert !! :) :)
Annie :)
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I'm wondering if the will would tell us anything ?? ........ do you think it would be an idea to try ??
http://www.ancestor-search.info/SRC-Wills.htm
Annie :)
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I'm in two minds about it, on the one hand the Probate Index possibly gives all the information there was, since it was proved by Elizabeth Neil Stead and we have the amount, on the other hand it should only cost £5 since we have the dates of both death and probate, and there is the possibility of it naming any descendants.
What makes me doubtful, however, is that they were only married for 7 years, so if there were any children they would be so young that he might not have mentioned them and the estate went straight to Elizabeth, and you did check the indexes for children. :(
I think maybe we could look more at Nora(h) and see if we can find a marriage for her, I noticed that Wendi looked, but maybe she was a late developer ;) If Wendi is reading, can you tell me if you checked the images themselves? that would save some time.
Apr/May/June qtr 1912 is missing anyway for all letters after 'A'
Oct/Nov/Dec qtr 1925 missing
The Norah Stead from Ormskirk married a Kewley in June qtr 1916, Ormskirk 8b 1242, but as we have a birth for a Norah in Ormskirk I assume this would be her.
Mary
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Right I have a possible Nora M Stead who married George G Dobell December qtr 1926 Wirral 8a 846. Wirral is definitely not too far away to be her and is the only Nora M in the vicinity at all.
CheshireBMD confirms that the name IS Nora May Stead who married George Galloway Dobell at West Kirby, St Andrew
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Mary,
If it's nécessary, no problem for me for paying £5 for new informations
Michel
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If Elizabeth remarried she may still at least be in the same area as her birth is....
Elizabeth Neil Grant West Derby 1895 Q2 8b 505.
So her family would still be around her.
Tazzie
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If Elizabeth remarried she may still at least be in the same area as her birth is....
Tazzie, they had already moved from the Everton area to Gateacre, I know it's not very far but not quite on the doorstep. Of course we don't know whether they may have moved to the area also.
Michel, at present, let's see if we can take it further without spending any money, as explained above, there's no certainty that there will be any new information in a will or merely Elizabeth's name and address.
Anybody else have viewpoints or suggestions?
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I don't believe it, up to 1936 and no children!!! Will have to check the deaths.
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Again up to 1936 with no deaths for those names anywhere in the country.
Decided to check the birth of George Galloway Dobell and the entry is for September qtr 1901 Edmonton 3a 617. This date surprises me since it would make him about 7 years younger than Nora, however there is a birth for a George Dobell December qtr 1894 Northwich, Cheshire 8a 246 which would make better sense, except that Galloway is bothering me since the marriage was specifically George Galloway Dobell.
Annie we need some of your searches, they always come up with the goods somehow.
Mary
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Hi Mary A ....
Oh B** missed that bit ..was looking at the piccies brilliant.
Found where the will came up for Robert The ONS for Stead/Steed.. now I hope they would be ok with their name but do you think Steed is worth a try?
There are lots in the West Derby area for this time frame.
Tazzie
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Morning everybody !
I'm still half asleep .... I was up half the night checking too and came up with nada !! :P
but I thought just struck me ... when Robert joined up he was a bank clerk and as he seemed to have left a bit of money ( for 1928 ) .... I wonder if we can check banks in the area ..... a quick peruse turned up nothing ..... but it might be an avenue to pursue !
I also checked Allerton Cemetery and I can't remember if there is a graveyard at St Stephens ....... the church has a blog but I couldn't find a "contact us" place on there ......... would a phone call asking if there is any record of his funeral be a possibility ? the Vicar sounds "hip" maybe he would like the challenge too !! :)
I also checked to see if I could find anything on his mother being a Professor of Music .... but struck out there too !!
All in all - not a very productive night !! ........ but might save somebody else going over the same ground ...
Annie :)
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1938 Kellys:
Geo. G. Dobell "Bramerton", Meols Drive, West Kirby, Wirral Cheshire. HOYlake 1377.
Also G.C. Dobell & Co Ltd General Merchants 9 Rumford Street with warehouses in Church St Bootle and Liver St, mills and works at 2 and 2a Fulton Street. Could be the family business
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1938 Kellys:
Geo. G. Dobell "Bramerton", Meols Drive, West Kirby, Wirral Cheshire. HOYlake 1377.
Well that's good to know since I can't find a death for either name and I got up to 1958. No results for the name Dobell in West Kirby or Hoylake in the current BT phonebook but then again many people are ex directory these days.
I suspect, although I don't know for certain, that this site might have been redeveloped, http://www.houseprices.co.uk/e.php?q=&n=10&sid=65985&f=pd
Found where the will came up for Robert The ONS for Stead/Steed.. now I hope they would be ok with their name but do you think Steed is worth a try?
There are lots in the West Derby area for this time frame.
Tazzie
Go for it, there's only 7 years to search so not so bad.
I have found the telephone number for the church, I might ask the Reverend. I think the year was 1926 not 1928.
Our Smilies have changed colour ;D ;D ;D
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A death:
Elizabeth Neil Hurst DoB 19 May 1895 died Jan 1990 aged 94
Sefton South
Merseyside
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A death:
Elizabeth Neil Hurst DoB 19 May 1895 died Jan 1990 aged 94
Sefton South
Merseyside
Oh wow RT !! ................ that really does look like her doesn't it ??
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Well one marriage I have found is Elizabeth N Stead married Frank W Hurst, September qtr 1940 Bucklow 8a 948.
Can't be positive that this is the right couple as Bucklow is in Cheshire http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/bucklow.html
but if it is I don't think there are going to be any children :D
Sefton South where the death occurred would be in the Bootle/Crosby area of Merseyside.
Mary
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Where was that information from Retiringtype? is there a website with some parish registers listed? It might be possible to trace anything through the church?
Mary - still clutching at straws since the vicar at St Stephen's had an answerphone on and I'd rather speak to a person. :D
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Annie,
It was in the 1984-2004 BMD indexes. I expect there would have been a death announcement in the Liverpool Echo (and/or The Times) in January or early February 1990.
Does anyone out there have access I wonder?
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Well I checked births for Steed incase anything came up wrongly.
I did find a MMN Grant for a Steed birth but it was in Bristol 1922 so I think way off our patch.
Tazzie
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Well for something completely different ..... I found out that before WW1 our Robert worked at Parrs Bank Ltd Market branch Liverpool and was bonded ......... it that too far back to pursue ??
In 1913, the bank formed a subsidiary, London County and Westminster Bank (Paris), which opened branches during and after World War I in Bordeaux, Lyons, Marseilles, Nantes, Brussels, and Antwerp. The bank itself also established offices in Barcelona and Madrid during the same time. In 1917, bank officials decided to acquire the Ulster Bank (which continued to operate separately), with 170 branches throughout Ireland, and in 1918 bought Parr's Bank, with over 320 offices throughout England. These purchases made London, County, Westminster & Parrs (which became simply Westminster Bank Ltd. in 1923)the fifth-largest bank in England.
http://www.answers.com/topic/national-westminster-bank-plc
Annie :)
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Annie .....someone on RC has Stead in Lancashire & Cheshire so have sent pm.....worth a try as those both tie in areas....
Tazzie
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Thanks Tazzie ! ( how come I didn't try that ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? )
Well I bit the bullet and sent an email to the Editor of the Liverpool Echo ! :) :) :) :) :)
Let's hope he's "nosy " like us and takes a look at what we're trying to do !!
Fingers - toes - and eyes crossed !!
Annie :)
PS I was trying to get to Colin Hunt Chief Librarian at the Liverpool Echo but couldn't find any contact address !!
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Annie....do you think the features desk may help?
Tazzie
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Annie....do you think the features desk may help?
Tazzie
Well I thought if I talked to the " engine driver " .... he would delegate to the best person to deal with the question !! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Do you know somebody there Tazzie ?
Annie :)
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No..'fraid not... I looked at their web page for the echo and it's list all but Colin Hunt.....also have you seen they have an EX-PATS notice board for posting on might be worth alook
Tazzie
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hello Annie and Mary
have been asking around today to see if anyone knows the Stead family but dont seem to be gettting any further on will keep trying never know what turns up ,
Doreen
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I keep trying to phone the vicar but all I'm getting is the answering machine.
Slow day but ... never know what turns up :)
Mary
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I found the Richards family in New York in 1870 !!
1870
New York Ward 8 District 16, New York, New York
Robt Richards 36 England
Honora 33 England
Emily 8 England
Walter 4 England
Rob W 1 USA
Annie :)
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I'm wondering if we'd have more luck finding a family member through this family ?? ??? what do you think ??
1881 Richards family ! note wife's name !! ( I think this is the one Tazzie found ! ::) )
65 Stanfield Rd Everton
Robert Richards 47 Head Exeter Devon Insurance Agent
Annie Richards 41
Emily Richards 18
Robert Richards 11
Walter Richards 15
Alice Richards 7
RG11/3665 Folio 44 Page 15
Annie :)
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Looks like she liked to change her name....
Robert Richards marries Anorah/Honora REGAN West Derby Q3 1861.
Tazzie
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If we are going to follow this line, if possible, then I think we need other censuses transcribed here for easy reference.
1901 as found by Julia because I've just realised that we've overlooked somebody.
74 Rockfield Road, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool
Stead
Emily daur M 39 Liverpool
Norah M G.Daur 7 "
Robert W G.Son 5 "
Elspet Nurse S 35 Sick Nurse (Hospital) Scotland
Dutch Emmaline Servant S 24 Domestic Servant Liverpool
RG13/3455; Folio: 97; Page: 17
Elspet has been dittoed as another "Stead" - I wonder if this is accurate?
1891 - 74 Rockfield Road, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool
Robert Richards Head M 56 Insurance? Agent ?? Lancashire
Anora Wife M 50 Liverpool
Emily daur S 28 Professor of Music Liverpool
Waltor son M 25 Ship's Steward Liverpool
Robert W Son S 21 Insurance AGent New York USA
Alice daur 17 New York USA
RG12/2979; Folio 61; Page 22
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Aha!!! could this be why Elizabeth died in South Sephton?? Remember I said it would be Bootle/Crosby area. Somebody please confirm this relationship for me!!! I edited out the wrong bit
1901
2 Albert Drive, Orrell and Ford, Lancashire
Robert W Richards Head M 31 Insurance Manager United States B. Sub.
Caroline A Wife M 32 Gloucestershire Blakney
John E Son 6 Lancashire Waterloo
Chas W. Son 4 " "
Jessie C daur 1 " "
Norah daur 4 months " Orrell
June E Davies Serv S 26 Mother's Help (Domestic) " Liverpool
RG13/ 3448; Folio: 41; Page: 19
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Our Robert W Stead's mother is Emily Richards
So isn't this Robert W Richards ( Emily's brother ) his uncle ?? so would be Elizabeth's Uncle by marriage :) ::) ::) ::)
Or did I lose the plot again ??
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Alice Richards married Miller Crease West Derby, St. Philip September qtr 1900.
1901
160 Kensington, West Derby Western, Lancashire
Miller Crease Head M 38 Music Seller & c. Employer Scotland
Alice " Wife M 28 New York B.S.
Nora " M.in.Law Wid 60 Insurance AGent at home Liverpool Lancashire
RG13/3494; Folio: 74; Page: 14
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/streetchapt03.htm search for Crease on this page.
" (3) Creases Music Shop on Walton Road, was owned by the Beatles' ill-fated manager Brian Epstein's family"
I remember this shop, I wonder if there was any connection ........
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Oooh Mary !
I was just going to say ..... that name is soooooo familiar !! :) :) :)
oh wow ! that's kind of cool huh ??
Annie :) :)
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Our Robert W Stead's mother is Emily Richards
So isn't this Robert W Richards ( Emily's brother ) his uncle ?? so would be Elizabeth's Uncle by marriage :) ::) ::) ::)
Or did I lose the plot again ??
Waiting on somebody else sorting us out here .........
William H Stead married Emily Richards
parents of
OUR Robert W Stead whose wife was Elizabeth Neil Stead and who married a Hurst and died Jan 1990 aged 94 in Sefton South.
Emily's brother was Robert W Richards so yes you are quite right Annie, her uncle by marriage, but could she possibly be enough of a relative for one of his children to have made arrangements for her in her old age, and possibly the funeral?
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Mary !
If she didn't have any children of her own .... she might have been a favourite "Aunt " ..... I remember having a Great Aunt who was wonderful when we were growing up !! :) :) Though she was also one of their peers wasn't she ?? They could possibly have wanted her to be around them !! :)
I think I want to get her death certificate .... what do you think ??
Annie :)
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I think we also have to assume that the "Nora Crease - Mother in Law" living with Miller and Alice Crease should in fact be Anora/Honora Richards so hubby Robert Richards has died between 1891 and 1901 and she seems to have taken over his job of Insurance Agent.
It's unfortunate I can't find anything more about Crease's Music Shop, I seem to remember it was on the block just before Spellow Lane on the left hand side heading in the direction of Liverpool Town Centre.
I wonder if Doreen knew this shop?
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I think I want to get her death certificate .... what do you think ??
Annie :)
Incorrigible Annie!!!
Now this has become a little like the Challenges and we should be trying without spending money. Think laterally!!
I'm wondering more about a grave. Orrell and Ford ........ is anybody going to the Record Office, would they check the little black box by the microfiche machines which has the RC burials, including those for Ford Cemetery. We want an entry for Elizabeth Neil Hurst who died Jan 1990 aged 94 in Sefton South.
I expect that's too easy and she may well have been a C of E burial in which case there are any number of churches and cemeteries which might have been involved, especially since we don't have an address.
However ........ would the Records Office help since we have a very close date of death? I'll drop them a line. Email sent, have to wait until at least tomorrow for an answer now.
Time for bed, yawnnnnnnnnnnn nite nite!!
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I went through Yew Tree last night !! ..... till it suddenly struck me it was RC !! ::) ::) ;) ;) ;)
Night Girlfriend and thank you !
Annie :)
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I went through Yew Tree last night !! ..... till it suddenly struck me it was RC !! ::) ::) ;) ;) ;)
How do you manage to go through Yew Tree via Colorado ??? ???
There are two Creases in the Phonebook but both of them are in Ellesmere Port, Cheshire. On checking the 1901 census there are no obvious Creases in Cheshire. I wonder if it's worth giving them a call? Well that will be a job for tomorrow anyway.
You do get me into some pickles me girl!
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I went through Yew Tree last night !! ..... till it suddenly struck me it was RC !! ::) ::) ;) ;) ;)
How do you manage to go through Yew Tree via Colorado ??? ???
There are two Creases in the Phonebook but both of them are in Ellesmere Port, Cheshire. On checking the 1901 census there are no obvious Creases in Cheshire. I wonder if it's worth giving them a call? Well that will be a job for tomorrow anyway.
You do get me into some pickles me girl!
Don't you just LOVE being my friend Mary ?? ........ you must admit ... I do make life exciting for you !!!!!!!
And I do appreciate you .... you KNOW that !! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Annie :) :)
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I sent an email to St Peter's Woolton tonight ! just in case our Robert William is buried there ...
not too far from Gateacre and with a Beatles connection Michel will appreciate !! :)
Thought this site may be of interest !!
http://bdaugherty.tripod.com/liverpool/woolton.html#GATEACRE
Annie :)
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Apparently the information on Ford Cemetery only goes up to 1989 ............... :( and we need 1990 !! :-\ is that right ?? ???
There are three different microfiche numbers which will give you all the
information you need on Ford Cemetery.
Internment register 1859 to 1989 6085340 33
fiche
Internment register 1859 to 1989 6085341 26
fiche
Ford cemetery Alphabetical 1859 to 1989 6085339 28 fiche
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Heres a list of all Cemeteries - specifically cemeteries - as opposed to graveyards or churchyards in the Liverpool area !!
Ainsdale Cemetery Liverpool Road Ainsdale 1883 RC
Allerton Cemetery Woolton Road Garston 1909 General.
Anfield Cemetery Princes Road Anfield 1863 C of E/General/RC
Everton Cemetery Long Lane Fazakerley 1880 C of E/General/RC
Ford Cemetery Gorsey Lane Ford Litherland 1859 RC
Kirkdale Cemetery Longmoor Lane Walton 1881 C of E/General/RC
Necropolis or Low Hill Cemetery West Derby Road 1825 to 1898
St James Cemetery Upper Duke Street 1829
St Martin-in-the-Fields Cemetery Silvester St 1829 to 1856
St Mary's Cemetery Cambridge Street 1806 to 1847
St Mary's Cemetery Walton Road Kirkdale 1837 to 1898
Toxteth Park Cemetery Smithdown Road 1856 C of E/General
Walton Park Cemetery Rice Lane Walton 1851
West Derby Cemetery Lower House Lane West Derby 1884 C of E/General/RC
There is also a Jewish Cemetery somewhere in West Derby
Yewtree Cemetery Finch Lane West Derby 1893 RC
The Cemeteries Office - The Lodge Priory Road Liverpool 4
Tel 0151 263 3267 (?)
Annie :)
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Here's another list of Merseyside cemeteries http://www.liverpoolhome.com/Merseyside_Cemeteries/merseyside_cemeteries.htm
If Elizabeth died in the Crosby area she may be buried at Thornton.
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Not being picky here but ......
I think the Cemeteries Office is now at the Allerton cemetery, not Priory Road, don't know how long this has been for but I think the enquiries moved.
Thornton is definitely another consideration for Elizabeth but don't pin your thoughts on Crosby, Sefton South could include a much larger area, even Bootle or at least parts of it and there is a cemetery there too. Also lots of churchyards down Crosby/Formby way which might still do funerals.
We may end up resorting to a death certificate if that's what it takes, which will also mean a wait of a few weeks, so at present I have my fingers crossed that the Record Office might be able to give us some answer.
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Phew a lot further on than when I last visited ;D
Well done all, having local knowledge really helps doesn't it ;) - And thanks Mary for finding Nora's marriage that was really bugging me!!
Cemeteries Office
Allerton Lodge
Woolton Road
Is this the one Mary?
Wendi :)
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Kellys direc 1955
Crease Music Shop
14 County Road Walton Liverpool 4
1955 Robert Crease
hope this helps
Doreen
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Epstiens was a furniture shop in Walton Rd opposite the Astoria cinema it was known as NEMS
Doreen
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Yes Wendi, that's the address and I found the phone number too, unfortunately this now diverts direct to the Registrar's Office, I suppose there must have been too many people asking queries. All searches now have to be put into writing, sent to Allerton and charged £10. Not sure how much information we would get from just a grave plot for £10, even the death certificate is cheaper than that.
I see the name Robert Crease Doreen, it looks coincidental that the name Robert might be carried down the line .... I know it's speculation that this music shop is connected to the same Crease family just because of Miller's occupation but am I taking a leap of faith here -
Birth of
Alice Crease September qtr 1901 West Derby 8b 575
Emily Crease December qtr 1902 West Derby 8b 554
Robert Miller Crease December qtr 1907 West Derby 8b 618
Searching 192.com also finds a Vera Crease and a William M Crease in Merseyside in the Historical Electoral Rolls, no saying what date, they are usually about 2002. Could that middle initial also be M for Miller?
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Hi .....haven't you been busy....
Robert Miller Crease b 1907 30 Sept d Apr 1984 age 76 Liverpool
Tazzie
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I wonder if someone could check the 1990 Probate Calendar for the Grant of Representation for the estate of Elizabeth Neil Hurst ? If we could identify the executors or administrators, and/or get a copy of the will if one exists, we should be nearly there....
It would mean a visit to First Avenue House or a District Probate registry http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm. Would all district offices have the complete Calendar for 1990 ?
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We may have another link with Sefton -
Robert M Crease married Constance E Pooley September qtr 1938 Bootle Lancs 8b 641
Now to check whether they had any children
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It's 4am .... and being the nosey person I am .... I HAD to take a peek !!
Good stuff here !! I remember NEMS !! ...... those were the days .... when they'd let you listen to the record BEFORE you bought it .... what a concept !! ;) ;) ;)
Seems like we're doing much better going down this road ....... maybe the tag would have more meaning to this side of the family !! :)
Annie :) :)
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Good stuff here !! I remember NEMS !! ...... those were the days .... when they'd let you listen to the record BEFORE you bought it .... what a concept !! ;) ;) ;)
You should be fast asleep Annie!!!
NEMS, well I thought of the music shop too, but Doreen's directory said furniture??
Remember the little booths where you listened to the record on headphones, we must have looked pretty silly dancing around to silence in the shop, but we thought we were soooo cool.
Robert Miller Crease b 1907 30 Sept d Apr 1984 age 76 Liverpool
To link these, could the Constance E Pooley be a mistake? there is also this death ...
Constance Jessie Crease born 5 Jun 1909 died January 2000 age 90 Liverpool
I CAN'T FIND ANY CHILDREN
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Oh well, quick response from the Record Office about looking up burials
"Unfortunately, it is not possible to ascertain, from the place and date of death, in which cemetery a person is buried. Liverpool Record Office holds burial records relating to Liverpool's municipal cemeteries, but, if Elizabeth Neil Hurst resided in Sefton, it is possible that she is buried in a Sefton cemetery. I have attached an information leaflet with further details. I have also attached a research form, as a search through several cemeteries could take longer than the free fifteen-minute research we can offer.
If you live near Liverpool Record Office, you may find it useful to check through local newspapers of the time, in case a death notice appears with burial details. Again, an information leaflet is atached"
It does look like a look up jobbie in the Liverpool Echo, even if the death was as far out as Crosby or even Formby the likelihood is that the funeral notice would have been placed in the Echo as nearly everybody does use that one.
Anybody going to the Record Office?? It's Elizabeth Neil Hurst died January 1990 we're after.
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These are the Creases listed in 1938 Kellys:
Crease Mrs Alice H music dlr (Rt. C) 10 Higher lane Fazakerley
Crease Regnld pianoforte dealer 15 East Orchard La 9
Crease Rt. insur supt 14 Kent rd Poulton, Wallasey
Crease Rt. music dlr 14 County Road Walton N TN Walton 288
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While I've got 1938 Kelly's open, here is the only Frank W Hurst listed:
Hurst Frank W salesman 21 Elgar Av Eastham Wirral.
( Cheshire ! - but a long way from Bucklow)
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Oh you are such a nice guy RT :D
I wonder if Alice H Crease was in fact a Mrs or was it just noted as that rather than admitting to being a single woman?
The Rt. Crease in Walton is obviously the shop we are remembering.
Reginald looks interesting too of course. East Orchard Lane is in Fazakerley too, off Longmoor Lane.
There are no Crease music companies of any sort appearing in the Yellow Pages.
Hurst Frank W salesman 21 Elgar Av Eastham Wirral.
( Cheshire ! - but a long way from Bucklow)
Bucklow was the Registration District, not necessarily the place they lived and it was two years before the marriage, however I suspect that by then people were often tending to move around more than they had in the 19th Century. After all, if we have the right Elizabeth then at some stage she returned to Merseyside later.
Just ramblin ain't I? it's not getting us any living family .... yet.
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Reginald S Crease married Euphemia Y Keay 1926 Walton, Trinity URC, Orrell & Rice Lanes which is the right area for Fazakerley/Liverpool 9.
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Derek sent me this ! wonder who Taylor is ?? ??? ??? ??? ( just kiddin' ;) )
Stead,Taylor & Stead agents to...Liverpool London & Globe and Royal Insurance Company...............11 Temple...Dale St..W
Annie :)
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I wonder if someone could check the 1990 Probate Calendar for the Grant of Representation for the estate of Elizabeth Neil Hurst ? If we could identify the executors or administrators, and/or get a copy of the will if one exists, we should be nearly there....
It would mean a visit to First Avenue House or a District Probate registry http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm. Would all district offices have the complete Calendar for 1990 ?
Hi Rootschatters - I haven't contributed to this thread before, but since I work very close to First Avenue House I popped over there. Elizabeth made a will (hurrah) which I have ordered, so I will have her will & grant in one hour.
Anna
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I wonder if someone could check the 1990 Probate Calendar for the Grant of Representation for the estate of Elizabeth Neil Hurst ? If we could identify the executors or administrators, and/or get a copy of the will if one exists, we should be nearly there....
It would mean a visit to First Avenue House or a District Probate registry http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm. Would all district offices have the complete Calendar for 1990 ?
Hi Rootschatters - I haven't contributed to this thread before, but since I work very close to First Avenue House I popped over there. Elizabeth made a will (hurrah) which I have ordered, so I will have her will & grant in one hour.
Anna
WOOHOO Anna !!
Thank you so much !!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Anna,
Fantastic. Thanks !!
-
What a star you are Anna!!!
I'd send you some smilies but I'm afraid they would put you off, they look a little strange at present!
Well the Creases don't seem to be very prolific in the birthing department, but there is at least one son to Reginald and Euphemia
Robert I Crease West Derby 8b 711 December qtr 1928 Mother's Maiden name - Keay
so more Roberts. I searched up to 1937 and then wondered whether Euphemia had died but up to 1937 also there was no sign of her death, nor any in the Liverpool area for that matter.
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Hello all....
Well more progress again it look as if this way will open up to more living rellies at least....
Good one Anna...ooooo....waiting waiting (Thinking smiley)
Tazzie
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Stead,Taylor & Stead agents to...Liverpool London & Globe and Royal Insurance Company...............11 Temple...Dale St..W
Now part of Deloitte Haskins & Sells - well as of February, 2003. In about 1963 it seemed to become part of Harmood Banner http://www.icaew.co.uk/viewer/index.cfm?AUB=TB2I_36893 check the sixth branch from the left.
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We'd better be careful though .... with it being a "recent " will etc .... and not post it here ......... maybe Anna could email them to us if we send her a PM !!
Annie :)
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hi all,
it seems to me something very important is coming, I do not all understand.
please explain a little to me
Michel
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Hello again Michel - Anna has discovered that Elizabeth Neil Hurst left a Will and as she works close to the building in York where they keep them she has ordered a copy and will collect it in about an hour.
We all have fingers crossed that we have the right person and wait to see whether any descendants are listed that we may be able to contact, especially since it was only 1990 that she died we are all hopeful.
Mary
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wow! my heart is beating wildly, I cross also the fingers
you are all wonderfull
I LOVE YOU
Michel
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I've been following this thread with great interest and have to go out now so have posted this little message so that I can easily find you when I get back.
Everything crossed for some good news.
Nanny Jan
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Here it is!
Elizabeth Neil Hurst
Date of death: 19 Jan 1990
Address at death: Abbemeade, 14 Victoria Rd, Waterloo, Liverpool L22 1RP
Date of will: 26 Oct 1988
Address at date of will: 16 Eshe Road, Blundellsands, L23 3AR (this appears to be a sheltered housing development run by Abbeyfield UK):
http://www.housingcare.org/sheltered-housing/scheme-81469-marsh-house-blundellsands-england.aspx
Elizabeth's executors were two partners in the solicitors' firm of Deacon Goldrein Green, 81 Dale St, Liverpool L2 2JA.
She made some small bequests to charities etc and left the residue of her estate to one (female) person. That person's address is given as the 16 Eshe Road address, suggesting that she lived or worked in the same sheltered housing complex as Elizabeth. I cannot find her on current electoral rolls at www.192.com, but will not give her name here in case she is still living.
No obvious sign of any children of Elizabeth, I'm afraid :( But there may be some clues in here which clever Rootschatters can make something of.
If anyone wants a copy of the will, PM me and I will scan & e-mail it.
Anna
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A pm of the name might help if you don't mind Anna please, and thank you enormously for getting the Will.
And the names of the two partners also please, I will try and give them a call.
Mary
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I had all these eyes looking at me waiting for breakfast .... so I had to go and do it !! :P
And I missed your great news Anna !
Thank you so much for all your time and effort .... it's very much appreciated !!
Annie :)
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I have even looked on Rightmove for Victoria Road...there are some large houses there that have been recently converted into "studios" and flats.
I am on the edge of my seat...Anna would love to see will..but only if not too many requests...cheers ..
Tazzie
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The Burmese Cat Society is at # 15 Victoria Road !! ::)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/014i/
Annie :)
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Anna ...
Thanks for the will.....
Now the person who is named I have a birth of said name inBucklow....we have had that before haven't we/
Tazzie
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OK I don't know how much time I have before I have to go out but this is what I have found so far.
The files from the Solicitors in question are held in the Law Society Archives and I have their phone number.
The two partners are still working for other Solicitors in the Liverpool area, one of which I don't particularly want to contact because of the firm he's working for but maybe as a last resort, I'll try the other one first, but wonder whether the archives would be better......
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Ok ......where did I see Bucklow on here...retiringtype mentions it I know
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The Burmese Cat Society is at # 15 Victoria Road !! ::)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/014i/
Annie :)
LOL!
At 13 Victoria Road is a residential care home called Fernleigh:
http://www.locallife.co.uk/sefton/residential3.asp
Unfortunately the number listed there doesn't take incoming calls - I thought they might be able to tell me what was at no.14.
Current electoral rolls do not list anyone living at 14 Victoria Rd. Historical electoral rolls apparently do list some people with this address, but I've only got the basic subscription to 192 so their names are blanked out.
Anna
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Well one marriage I have found is Elizabeth N Stead married Frank W Hurst, September qtr 1940 Bucklow 8a 948.
What date please Tazzie?
OK I have found it!!
-
The only problem is that if she was born in 1907 and still had the same name in 1990 then that means she didn't marry, but there isn't a death noted after that date - is that death register complete? I thought it was?
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The only problem is that if she was born in 1907 and still had the same name in 1990 then that means she didn't marry, but there isn't a death noted after that date - is that death register complete? I thought it was?
Maybe she's still alive and awaiting her telegram from the Queen (or died since 2004...)
Anna
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One of the witnesses is listed in the historical Electoral Rolls at the address mentioned.
-
There is an entry in the phone book for the beneficiary ...... living in Ford.
But unfortunately she is not connected :'( :'( :'(
-
Mary - I'm losing the thread of this - are you talking about the beneficiary of the Will now ?
-
Yes the beneficiary, but the phone number I found is of a younger person and she doesn't know our Elizabeth.
-
Be careful Mary ..... no heart stopping conversations !! ::)
Edit ! ...... aawww !!
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OOOOOooo I thought you had it then...
Maybe carried away with Bucklow connection so just coincidence then.
As you say no death in that name post will date so maybe some one that worked there?
-
Thinking what to do ....
I could contact the Law Society Archives - but would there be anything more than we have in the Will?
I could contact either of the Solicitors - ditto
Is it worth contacting the witness - if she is still living and at the same address?
Is it worth seeing who is living at the other address? where the beneficiary and Elizabeth were both living at the time she wrote the will?
Is it worth trying to follow up on the Richards who were living in Orrell and Ford in the 1901 census?
What about the Creases?
As you say no death in that name post will date so maybe some one that worked there?
Tazzie - would she have left the whole of the rest of her estate to somebody who worked there? I would have thought maybe a good friend ........
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OK I've got the name from Anna now - thanks Anna.
Maybe the lady married late in life, Mary. There's a possible in 1992, Sefton South.
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Can I just say something ........... ?
Knowing how Michel has cherished the tag of our soldier all these years .... I really feel like it should be in the hands of somebody who would treasure it just as much as him ! don't you ??
I'd hate for it to go to just anybody !!
Annie ::)
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I have to go out - thoughts about what our next direction should be please??
Retiringtype - that marriage. They appear to still be in Liverpool somewhere in the current Electoral Register. No phone number given.
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Annie is right it has to be the closest family member . We now have loads of names and maybe we could do with a recap on each family.
I think we may get bogged down in all the info.
Mary I think the will states everything we need on that line of enquiry .
The Creases I think could be a good line to really look into.
Tazzie
Mary A as for leaving it to someone how worked there well stranger thing have happened
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Mary ! ..... what do you reckon on
Is it worth trying to follow up on the Richards who were living in Orrell and Ford in the 1901 census?
What about the Creases?
I think they would get my vote ! :)
-
Norah Joyce Crease born 27 Sep 1914 died Nov 2003 aged 89 Liverpool
Robert Miller Crease born 30 Sep 1907 died Apr 1984 aged 76 Liverpool
Elsie Flora Crease born 10 Nov 1904 died Jun 1987 aged 82 Liverpool
Constance Jessie Crease born 5 Jun 1909 died Jan 2000 aged 90 Liverpool
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Now I'm deflated now RT .................. :P
-
Something nagging at me from earlier on:
I wonder if Alice H Crease was in fact a Mrs or was it just noted as that rather than admitting to being a single woman?
These are the Creases listed in 1938 Kellys:
Crease Mrs Alice H music dlr (Rt. C) 10 Higher lane Fazakerley
Crease Regnld pianoforte dealer 15 East Orchard La 9
Crease Rt. insur supt 14 Kent rd Poulton, Wallasey
Crease Rt. music dlr 14 County Road Walton N TN Walton 288
I am thinking that Mrs Alice H Crease could be Miller Crease's wife (formerly Alice Richards ) who would have been 64 in 1938, not the daughter Alice
-
We could do with getting all these names and dates of the Steads and the Grants and the Richards and the Creases into a database, ideally a tree, so that we can easily see the relationships and time lines - has any one put a gedcom together for them yet?
-
Has anyone contacted the gentleman on GR who has Crease relatives in Liverpool? My GR subscription expired last week!
-
I've just renewed my GR membership and will make contact.
-
Sorry RT ... didn't mean for you to be talking to yourself !! ::)
No ! to all of the above .... from me anyways !! ::)
Annie
-
I'm back but watching at the mo, finally getting to feed me face!!
Trouble with a gedcom is that many of these are sorta suppositions aren't they? and won't even attach, but yet they do certainly need organising
-
Have we missed this one altogether...What about family of Elizabeth Grant/ Stead/Hurst....who were her siblings can we tie anyone in there?
Tazzie
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The trouble with these things where we all run away with what we have is that I lose track of the early stuff.
If nobody else is doing one, I'll do a gedcom although how on earth you will all get to see it, I have no idea.
-
Can we print it out Mary ??
You know me ........ ??? I'll do what you want me to do .... to make it easier !!
Annie :)
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Dunno, if I can get into my webspace maybe it would be easier to post it on there, think I may have forgotten my password though :-[
-
hello Mary and Annie
Epstiens was 62/70 Walton Road , next door was North End Music Stores ,they closed and NEMS was opened in Whitechapel owned by B Epstien and is now Ann Summers
Doreen
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If you print the whole thread out it's 46 pages ..... I've been doing it ..... ??? ???
I can't remember mine either .... can you Mary ?? :P .... but I still have it somewhere !! ;D
You can use mine if you want ! I need to take that other stuff off anyways ....... !!
-
hello Mary and Annie
Epstiens was 62/70 Walton Road , next door was North End Music Stores ,they closed and NEMS was opened in Whitechapel owned by B Epstien and is now Ann Summers
Doreen
So that's where NEMS came from ..... I didn't know that ! .... thanks Doreen !! :) :)
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I just got a reply back from Liverpool Genealogy !! ....... but it has to be snail mail - no email address .... ::)unless somebody can find a telephone number !! - do you think that would be ok to look it up ??
Did you ever do anything about this? I don't know who it was.
-
I'm on slo mo here Mary .... I sent you a message !! ???
-
You did? my brain's befuddled then cos I don't remember one.
-
that was me
liverpool genealogy
0170456279
2 chelsea court
lulworth road
southport
liverpool
didnt know who was going to give them a ring
Doreen
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Norah Joyce Crease born 27 Sep 1914 died Nov 2003 aged 89 Liverpool
Robert Miller Crease born 30 Sep 1907 died Apr 1984 aged 76 Liverpool
Elsie Flora Crease born 10 Nov 1904 died Jun 1987 aged 82 Liverpool
Constance Jessie Crease born 5 Jun 1909 died Jan 2000 aged 90 Liverpool
Above - Discount Robert Miller Crease as we know about him and also Constance as I'm assuming this was Constance Pooley Robert Miller Crease's Wife.
While I'm making this Gedcom can somebody please check the BMD's and see if Elsie Flora and Norah Joyce were born Creases and never married or were they somebody else and in which case they married male Creases.
Thanks
-
0170456279
2 chelsea court
lulworth road
southport
liverpool
didnt know who was going to give them a ring
Doreen
Not the same one Thudders was getting in touch with then? I can't, I don't know the name of the person.
-
Have we missed this one altogether...What about family of Elizabeth Grant/ Stead/Hurst....who were her siblings can we tie anyone in there?
Tazzie
We have absolutely nothing on Elizabeth Grant except her marriage, except an assumption of her birthdate from her death.
-
0170456279
2 chelsea court
lulworth road
southport
liverpool
didnt know who was going to give them a ring
Doreen
Not the same one Thudders was getting in touch with then? I can't, I don't know the name of the person.
Mary !
That was just the Liverpool Genealogy ...... they had to give us the name of the person who was requesting information .... and Thudders sorted it out when we got the name !! .... did you understand that ????
Annie :)
-
I have 1901 for Elizabeth .... give me a minute to type OK ??
-
1901
14 Denorwis (?) Road Waltion on the Hill
James Grant 37 head Nova Scotia Halifax School Master
Margaret Grant 31 wife Liverpool
Catherine P Grant 29 sister Liverpool Typist
Isanie G Grant 7 Liverpool
Elizabeth Grant 5 Liverpool
James P Grant 2 Liverpool
RG13/3456 Folio 10 Page 11
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I hadn't realised what was going on between the three of you :D not to worry, I'll leave it all in your capable hands.
With a bit of luck before I go to bed tonight I should have a basic tree for you to see on my website, but it's taking a little bit of time since I need to back my own up and then delete it for the space.
I think that road would be Dinorwic. And was Margaret's name Neil then?
-
Isanie G Grant 7 Liverpool
I think that might be Jeanie G
Do you think that might be some place called Nova Scotia in OUR Halifax, or Halifax in Nova Scotia in ummmm Canada?
-
No Neil in her name !! but she was the only Elizabeth Grant I could find .... age was right and area .... !!
I'd never heard of the name of that street before !! :-\
Thanks for doing that Mary ! :) :) :)
I assumed Canada .... but the sister was Liverpool !! :)
-
Dinorwic Road
off Oakfield Road
runs down to Walton Breck Road which is only a few streets away from Watford Road
Doreen
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Not required any longer
-
Hi ....
Haven't yet got a Margaret Neil...I have ...
James Grant to Margaret Connell 1892 west derby
Margaret Fleming 1893 west derby
Margaret Jane Mooney 1893 west derby.
1881 rg11/3679 f76 p29
Elizabeth Grant hd w f 50 Scotland
Jane Grant da u f 24 Liverpool Teacher(sc)
Mapy? J Grant so u m 19 Halifax Nova Scotia under grad Oxford
James Grant so u m 17 Halifax Nova Scotia pupil teacher
Catherine Grant da u f 9 Liverpool scholar
John Kennedy lod m m 26 Scotland Shipbroker
living 52 Seven St Kirkdale Lancs
Tazzie
-
Canada seems to be right - here's the 1891
10 Leven Street, Kirkdale
Occupying 5 rooms
Agnes Harding Head Wid 67(or 69) Retired Schoolmistress Lancashire Liverpool
Agnes E daur S 36 Teacher of Music Lancashire Bootle
Occupying 3 rooms
James Grant Lodger S 27 School Teacher Canada Halifax
Catherine Grant Lodger S 19 Lancashire Liverpool
RG12/ 2962; Folio 85; Page 25
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Hmmmmm Tazzie, now you've put me in a quandary, do you think this could be the same Elizabeth Grant in 1891, if so it means another child from somewhere different again. I had wondered whether she was still around in Kirkdale since James and Catherine were still at the same street.
69 Oriel Road, Bootle, Lancashire
Lewis A Grant Head M 28 Timber Merchant Employer London Hampstead
Annie Wife M 27 Leeds Arnley
John A Son 1 Manchester Longsight
Elizabeth Mother Wid 60 Living on own means Scotland
Mary E McSweeney Servant S 21 General Servant Domestic Ireland
RG12/ 2973; Folio 13; Page 20
I'll reserve my judgement on that one, totally unsure.
Doreen, do you think the road is Leven Street, I've been racking my brains and think it's over the other side of County Road from Anfield.
Is the Gedcom ok then everyone?
I hope Michel's not in a hurry, we seem to be having too much fun.
-
Just to figure out where they were all coming from and pick up yet another few siblings
1871
6 Lowry Street, Everton,
George Grant Head M 46 Joiner Staffordshire Stoke
Elizabeth Wife M 39 Scotland
William Son Un 16 Apprentice Sailmaker Lancashire Liverpool
Jen~~ daur 14 School " "
Matthew Son 9 " Halifax Nova Scotia
James Son 7 " " "
RG10/ 3818; Folio: 134; Page: 20
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Matthew G Grant, 29 a Gram. School Assistant, born Nova Scotia, Halifax is single and boarding with Samuel and Sarah Stanley at 231 Monument Road, Edgbaston, Warwickshire in 1891.
RG12; Piece: 2359; Folio 64; Page 7
and by 1901 he's married but still living miles away.
11 Parkhill Row, Harborne, Worcestershire
Matthew G Grant Head M 39 Schoolmaster of Grammar School Nova Scotia
Emma E Wife M 38 Warwickshire Birmingham
Kenneth W Son 6 Staffordshire Harborne
Marjorie E daur S 5 " "
RG13/ 2817; Folio: 101; Page: 1
hmmmmmm his father was born Staffordshire .......
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So Matthew is Mapy? J in 1881 by the looks of it
For Lewis in 1881 RG11/3713 F44 3 Fairfield Cres West Derby
Lewis Grant vis u m 18 London Middlesex apprentice
in h/h/ of John Cartwell
there is a Lewis b Scotland he is a soldier.
Tazzie
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OK then!!
http://marya.rootschat.net/
Have fun
Mary - this is really helpful - thanks!!
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** nothing to do with what we are doing but anything totally off topic isn't showing up on the main screen ??? **
I have to check replies to my posts instead!
Tazzie
If anyone awake
-
I'm awake .......... I think we've broke it Tazzie !! :o :o
I have to catch up again ....... leave this thread for a few minutes and you get lost !! :) :)
-
Why are we in Totally Off Topic Bit anyway ? This is serious research!
-
Heh..off our rockers at this time of night ...and we are back on the headings again...
I am off to bed to codg this over some more and see what we can come up with. We have now got so many people this has to go somewhere.
night night ...see you in the morning
Tazzie
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I KNOW RT !!!!!! .... but at the time I posted .... I didn't think it would take off like this !! :) :) :)
and Arranroots said she would move it - if we wanted her to ...... ::) ::) ::)
Is the Gedcom ok then everyone?
I hope Michel's not in a hurry, we seem to be having too much fun.
Mary that helps so much when us old timers keep losing the plot !! ....... and Michel has waited this long ........ I believe he's just happy he's getting answers !! I just hope we find the right person to give it to .... otherwise I also think that if we don't find family .... then HE should be the one to keep it .... don't you ??
Annie :)
-
There are two medal cards for Frank W Hurst ..... the other one didn't come home ..... so I wonder if this is "our " Frank
Medal card of Hurst, Frank W
Army Service Corps
T/344127
Private
Date
1914-1920
Annie :)
-
This looks to be the son of Reginald Crease and Euphemia Keay:
Robert Ian Crease born 18 Nov 1928 died Oct 2003 aged 74 East Yorkshire
-
Been trying to figure out where Reginald Crease fits in. It look's like he's Miller Crease's nephew, not his son as first thought.
GRO has Reginald Stanley Crease born West Derby in 2Q 1892.
1901 census: 21 Higher Lane Walton on The Hill
Robert Crease 45 Musical instrument dealer b. Scotland
Alice H Crease 44 (AHA! - the music dealer in 1938?) B. Liverpool
Edith H Crease 15 b. Liverpool
Lilian Crease 13 do
Gertrude J Crease 11 do
Reginald S Crease 9
Ethel J Crease 7 do
Anne E Banks 26 servant
1891: 25 Spellow Lane
Robert Crease 34 Musical instrument dealer b. Scotland
Alice H Crease 33 B. Liverpool
Edith H Crease 5 do
Lilian Crease 3 do
Gertrude I Crease 1 do
James Fell 76 widower father in law Z
Annie Selby 20 servant
1881 census: 12 Aughton Street Everton
James Crease 63 Pattern Last Maker b, Scotland
Isabella Crease 54 do
Robert Crease 24 pianoforte tuner do
Miller Crease 18 organ builder do
Archd. Crease 15 junior clerk (shipping) do
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Just tidying up a detail:Tazzie found the GRO birth reference for Elizabeth Neil Grant on Monday
We have absolutely nothing on Elizabeth Grant except her marriage, except an assumption of her birthdate from her death.
If Elizabeth remarried she may still at least be in the same area as her birth is....
Elizabeth Neil Grant West Derby 1895 Q2 8b 505.
So her family would still be around her.
Tazzie
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hello Mary and Annie
there is /was,not sure which a levan Street off Westminster rd in Kirkdale and i think Severn Street was near Beacon Lane which again is not far from Watford Rd
Doreen
-
Morning all!
Glad it was a quiet day at work yesterday, today is a bit busier so I may not get as much done, although priority will probably be to try and update the website as we go along.
Doreen, I checked streetmap.co.uk and Leven Street is there, just off Westminster Road, and as the census says "Kirkdale" I think this is right.
I never gave a thought to a brother of Miller Crease, it just shows to go you that you always need to work backwards to come forwards, well I hope the Crease connection pays off. There's another brother there too I see, Archibald.
My apologies to Tazzie for overlooking the BMD reference for Elizabeth, I can only put it down to tiredness by the time I was working through everything and I'll be sure to add it onto the Gedcom.
Annie, I think it's time to ask for this to be moved, I hadn't realised that it wasn't showing up in the indexes, it's surprising so many people have just "come across" it. I agree it's a serious bit of research and definitely not "off topic" in case anybody is researching these names in the future.
I don't know if Michel wants to keep the button, I wonder if he doesn't would it be of interest to any of our museums, together with a copy of the story too!
Mary
-
Mornin' !!
Says she ...... bleary-eyed at 4.30am !! ::) I asked Arranroots to move us ....... !! she's sunning herself right now .... but I bet she'll do us pretty quick !! :) and they changed the rules yesterday about the off topics being on the Home board !! ...... so we'll be fixed up here anytime soon ! :) :)
Thanks to everybody for doing as much as you have ..... as always .... I'm blown away by the generousity of Roots .......
Annie :) :) :)
-
OK ! We're in Lancashire !! :)
-
Well that didn't even take a bus journey!
-
It all started when Liverpool Annie got an email from France................
At last a notify button!!! Thanks Arranroots ;D
-
You know I keep coming back to this William Henry Stead ..... I found him at the beginning but he keeps coming back to me ....... so I think I'd better include him ........... just in case !! - I hope we haven't had him before !! ???
1901
51 Hyslop St Toxteth
William H Stead 20 Head Liverpool Lancashire Bricklayer
Emily Stead 20 wife Seacombe cheshire
Sarah Stead 1 daughter Liverpool
RG13/3427 Folio 147 Page 15
Marriage ...... William Henry Stead 1900 A/M/J 8b 5
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I know you went through all the marriages for Norah ...... Mary .....
Right I have a possible Nora M Stead who married George G Dobell December qtr 1926 Wirral 8a 846. Wirral is definitely not too far away to be her and is the only Nora M in the vicinity at all.
CheshireBMD confirms that the name IS Nora May Stead who married George Galloway Dobell at West Kirby, St Andrew
Again up to 1936 with no deaths for those names anywhere in the country.
Decided to check the birth of George Galloway Dobell and the entry is for September qtr 1901 Edmonton 3a 617. This date surprises me since it would make him about 7 years younger than Nora, however there is a birth for a George Dobell December qtr 1894 Northwich, Cheshire 8a 246 which would make better sense, except that Galloway is bothering me since the marriage was specifically George Galloway Dobell.
1938 Kellys:
Geo. G. Dobell "Bramerton", Meols Drive, West Kirby, Wirral Cheshire. HOYlake 1377.
Also G.C. Dobell & Co Ltd General Merchants 9 Rumford Street with warehouses in Church St Bootle and Liver St, mills and works at 2 and 2a Fulton Street. Could be the family business
but I went from 1900 also and the best I could do was a Robina Stead ........ and I think you got her also ! ???
1901 A/M/J 8b 375 Toxteth Park
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but I went from 1900 also and the best I could do was a Robina Stead ........ and I think you got her also ! ???
1901 A/M/J 8b 375 Toxteth Park
Why do people assume I know what I don't know ??? Are we going to add her onto the family? is this a marriage or a birth?
Tazzie, Lewis Grant would be about 8 years old in 1871 and he's not with the family there, so am I safe to assume that he and his mother Elizabeth are NOT part of our family? I think maybe I should leave them off unless anybody comes up with better proof.
Annie - this William H Stead, do we reckon he's connected or are you just saving him up?
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Be gentle with me Mary ...... I'm still drinking coffee !! ......... ;) ;)
Robina was a marriage I found on A .... so I don't have the partner !
I found William Henry .... when I was looking for William Harley .... and dismissed him as too young .... but I was going through my stuff and thought I'd better mention him !!
and that's all I have .... the marriage and the 1901 !!
Annie :)
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Do you notice that Miller Crease was an Organ Builder in 1881 - I can't imagine him having his own business then can you? and music doesn't appear to have been in his father's genes as he was a patternmaker for shoes. It makes me wonder if he worked for Liverpool's famoush Rushworth & Dreapers, their premises were not very far away and had long been established by then - founded in 1828.
http://www.musiclink.co.uk/rushworths/
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You know that caught my eye too as one of mine worked for Henry Willis .... the company that built the organ at Liverpool Cathedral !
http://www.livcathorgan.homestead.com/lcohistory.html
http://www.willis-organs.com/
Annie :)
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STEAD Robina married LYNCH Henry W Toxteth Park, St. Matthew Liverpool
I have a feeling that this is just a bit too far south for our lot, I'd rather not confuse the issue by putting them in the Gedcom just yet but reserve them in case we connect them later, maybe through an earlier generation.
Especially since there are TWO Robina Steads would you believe in the 1901 census, they have to be related to each other, it's an unusual enough name. I can take an educated guess at which one the marriage is for since although the family of the younger one is living in Toxteth, she's only 10 years old.
She's living with her brother and family at 96 Upper Pitt Street, St Thomas, Liverpool,
William Stead Head M 49 Car Proprietor Own Account Lancs Gateacre
Elizabeth Wife M 39 Laundress Employer Lancs Ormskirk
George Son 11 Lancs Liverpool
William Son 10 " "
Ernest Son 4 " "
Charles Son 2 " "
Robina Sister S 31 Laundress " "
RG13/3414; Folio: 132; Page: 21
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Hi all....
Having a busy day today so cannot really look till after kiddies bedtime now either...
I think Lewis is outside the family we have and just in the area.
Son has swimming lesson after school taking some of this with me to read..
Tazzie
-
Still been wondering whether St Stephen's Gateacre has any records for the funeral of Robert but I keep ringing one number, a recorded message asks me if I want the vicar then to phone a different number, which then gives me another number for the office, which was the first number I started with ..... am I going around in circles here???
I'm reluctant to leave a message on the machine since I'm sure it would sound a bit garbled ::)
-
Not required any longer
-
And all thro the house not a creature did stir :o
they were all absorbing MaryA's great works ;)
You deserve a Gold Star for your work Mary ;D ;D ;D
Wendi :)
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Hi Everyone I am following the plot was tipped off by kidsnana that an interesting search had opened. I hope that you come to a successful result. I got a bit lost somewhere in the middle of the trail to be honest. Well done you're as usual doing a splendid job.
Good luck
tisgrannie
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I just found the wedding of Reginald Crease's younger sister Ethel - same location as Reginald and Euphemia but 3 years later:
1931: Ethel I CREASE married John BURTON at Walton, Trinity URC, Orrell & Rice Lanes Liverpool
NB Mary - next time you update the site could you take Reginald out from under Miller ? Thanks
-
could you take Reginald out from under Miller
He should have been :-\ something obviously gone wrong.
-
Just checked - he is under Robert Crease and Alice Fell ???
Do you need to clear your cache? maybe you are getting an old image
-
Well Robert William isn't at St Peters Woolton !!
( I thought I'd give it a go - just in case - while you were waiting for St Stephens Mary !! )
In case anybody else needs St Peters Woolton
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wooltonchurchyard/
Annie :)
-
I finally managed to get through to the Reverend at St Stephens who told me that the Gateacre Society could well be able to help, there was an archivist who specialised in WWI soldiers, although we know he didn't go to Gateacre until after that, they still might be able to help.
I've sent an email through the website and will just have to wait.
-
Just checked - he is under Robert Crease and Alice Fell ???
Do you need to clear your cache? maybe you are getting an old image
Apologies Mary you are absolutely right - once refreshed it was fine. (I need to tune my IE settings !!)
-
Phew, I'm glad about that, I was dreading to think that I'd got everybody mixed up and wouldn't know who was who!!
-
I finally managed to get through to the Reverend at St Stephens who told me that the Gateacre Society could well be able to help, there was an archivist who specialised in WWI soldiers
I've sent an email through the website and will just have to wait.
Glad you got thro eventually Mary :D - we'll be patient peeps ::)
Annie - I have not looked further - as this seemed to easy, but there is a Sarah Stead married a Roberts 1st Qtr. 1920 Birkenhead ???
Wendi :)
-
so how could Robert be a classed as a Grandson ..... ??
Emily is listed as "Daur" so I'd assume that the nearest "Head" above her on the page is her parent. Which takes us to Elizabeth ... Pritchard? Could be "Richards" badly transcribed by the enumerator??
You know this is really bothering me ! ::)
The two Faulkner boys are brothers in 1891 and they had neighbours who were Owen Pritchard and family .... no Elizabeth ! ..... I wish I could get my head around this ... can anybody else ??
Annie :)
-
Hi Annie....
The more I look at this now the more confused I get. Both Stead and Crease names are popular in the general area of Liverpool and still appear now.
Our link relly should be the one mention in the will ...we have not named on this site as person may be living...
my head hurts... :P
Tazzie going back to will again...
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I now think the Pritchard connection is a red herring Annie. Looking at the 1901 image, numbers 72 and 74 Rockfield are clearly separate households.
My guess is that Emily Stead completed the forms showing her father as Head ( of the household, not his name!), but with a note to the effect that he wasn't actually there on census night, so the enumerator ignored the absentees but transcribed the rest of the entries faithfully. Hence there is no Head of the household at 74 Rockfield. It starts with Emily as Daur. (the later mistranscription of Stead as Head is another story)
But who was Elspet the nurse?
-
Hi .....
I cannot read the two names signed at the bottom of the will.... again best not put them on here... I even blew them up but still cannot make it all out.
They have addresses and post codes ..may help?
Tazzie
-
Off to bed...need new eyes again...night night Annie
-
Night Girlfriend ! :) :) :)
-
Not sure if you have this but couldn't see it on the family tree.
Found...
Nora May Dobell
died aged 88 on 8 Dec 1981 at home 5 St Peters Close Heswall (formerly of Bramerton Meols Drive West Kirby) widow of George Galloway. Service and cremation at Landican Crematorium Monday Dec 14 11am.
Flowers to T. A. Ball Funeral Service Woodchurch Birkenhead.
Friday 28 May 1976
Latest wills - estates (net)
Mr George Galloway Dobell of West Kirby Merseyside
Linda
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Woohoo Linda ! :D :D
I just typed a reply and was dancing around at the same time ........ and I think I lost it !! ;) ;) ;)
Thank you so much for that !!
Annie :)
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These were Dobell snippets I found ........ but we don't need them now ???
Dobell's to America
http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/search/matchMore.asp?kind=exact&FNM=&LNM=Dobell&x=53&y=3&dwpdone=1
There is a GL Dobell WW1 War Memorial, Birkenhead, Cheshire
http://www.carlscam.com/warmem/birkenhead.htm
In Memory of
Lieutenant G L DOBELL
53rd Sqdn., Royal Air Force
who died age 25
on 11 August 1918
Son of William Blount Dobell and Agnes Dobell, of 31, Hamilton Square, Birkenhead.
Remembered with honour
METEREN MILITARY CEMETERY
BJ Dobell
In Memory of
Engine Room Artificer 4th Class BASIL JAMES DOBELL
D/MX 79479, H.M.S. Galatea, Royal Navy
who died age 22
on 15 December 1941
Remembered with honour
PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL
http://www.carlscam.com/warmem/weaverham.htm
G H DOBELLS, Caterer
http://www.carlscam.com/warmem/thetis.htm
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So we've found Robert Stead's sister Nora May. Well done Linda. !
Now all we need is her Will....
Just for completeness here is the GRO index entry for Nora's death:
Birkenhead 4Q 1981 vol 37 page G846
DOBELL Nora May born 1 September 1893
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Way to go Linda!!! - it does not mention any children, which is disappointing.
1901 Census RG13/771 Folio 26 Page 8
Richard Butterworth 72
Harrietta Ann Butterworth 73
Arthur Butterworth 35
Angela Stead 58 Single sister-in-law
Richard & Harrietta appear to have had at least 6 kids - but I'm not sure if it's worth going there ???
Additional info Qtr. June 1851 Richard married Harriet Anne Steads
-
Just maybe....
Richard Butterworth m Harriet Ann Stead 1 May 1851 St. Margaret, Leicester
http://www.stead-steedons.co.uk/cgi-bin/urlsrch/urlsrch.cgi
Tilehurst, Berkshire 1861 Census RG9/744 Folio 6 Page 6
Richard Butterworth 32
Harriett Ann Butterworth 33
Adaliza Butterworth 9
Joseph Steads Butterworth 6
Richard Butterworth 4
Albert Hope Butterworth 2
Euclid Hope Butterworth 1
Euclid Hope m Florence Isabel Denham
1882 1st Qtr. Aston Warwickshire
Did they have a double wedding with Lucinda Hope Butterworth who is listed on the same page ???
Ardsley, Wakefield 1901 Census RG13/4292 Folio 103 Page 30
Euclid H Butterworth 41
Florence J Butterworth 42
Elsie M Butterworth 19
Euclid D Butterworth 14
Florence D Butterworth 11
Roy S Butterworth 8
Constance J Butterworth 4
Adelija Nicholson 49, Visitor (Euclid’s sister)
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I now think the Pritchard connection is a red herring Annie. Looking at the 1901 image, numbers 72 and 74 Rockfield are clearly separate households.
My guess is that Emily Stead completed the forms showing her father as Head ( of the household, not his name!), but with a note to the effect that he wasn't actually there on census night, so the enumerator ignored the absentees but transcribed the rest of the entries faithfully. Hence there is no Head of the household at 74 Rockfield. It starts with Emily as Daur. (the later mistranscription of Stead as Head is another story)
But who was Elspet the nurse?
I agree with the red herring bit, thought I'd mentioned it quite a while ago that it appeared the parents were "away" but that presumably they still lived there so Emily was listed as "daughter". I also wondered about Elspet but assumed - rightly or wrongly that she has been dittoed by mistake.
I cannot read the two names signed at the bottom of the will.... again best not put them on here... I even blew them up but still cannot make it all out.
The second name I can't make out, possibly one of her friends at the time of making the will since the address is the same, also note the last word looks like "Retired". If it was somebody of similar age to herself, as the writing is shaky, then likely no good to us now. I did try what I thought the name might be in 192.com but no results.
The other one (also noted as "retired") I checked 192.com and she is listed on an Historical Electoral Roll, although not (at least on that site) on the current roll, nor with a phone number. There is no death listed in the 1984-2004 database, I suppose it's a 50/50 chance she's died in the last 2-3 years, or could she still be living? but may have moved during the last couple of years. The only way of enquiring would be by personal visit. Opinion please as to whether this would be worthwhile.
Well done Linda for the death and funeral details.
Opinions pleaseAm I allowed to quote the details in full on the family tree? I know Linda was asked to remove the mention of money for this thread but as this presumably came from an entry online, would it be permissible for me to quote it, and please Linda can you give me the link where it came from for the source details.
Annie I don't think Dobells are particularly scarce on the Wirral, I think in that case we need to stick to some who are known to be related to our George..... if anybody can relate them ??
Wendi, I'll add those census and marriage details to the tree, but I think I agree with you that if we get down to anybody living the relationship would be too far.
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The other one (also noted as "retired") I checked 192.com and she is listed on an Historical Electoral Roll, although not (at least on that site) on the current roll, nor with a phone number. There is no death listed in the 1984-2004 database, I suppose it's a 50/50 chance she's died in the last 2-3 years, or could she still be living? but may have moved during the last couple of years. The only way of enquiring would be by personal visit. Opinion please as to whether this would be worthwhile.
Well done Linda for the death and funeral details.
Opinions pleaseAm I allowed to quote the details in full on the family tree? I know Linda was asked to remove the mention of money for this thread but as this presumably came from an entry online, would it be permissible for me to quote it, and please Linda can you give me the link where it came from for the source details.
Annie I don't think Dobells are particularly scarce on the Wirral, I think in that case we need to stick to some who are known to be related to our George..... if anybody can relate them ??
Hi Mary !
I wonder if now we've found Nora May - if it would be neccessary to make a personal visit ! my opinion would be .... "I don't think so " !!
As for the will I think it would be appropriate on the website but not on the thread ..... I seem to remember some time ago Sarah said that as long as it was printed in the newspaper and was already in the public domain then it was Ok to be quoted !!
The only reason I posted my Dobells was ..... that I had been collecting them ..... just in case ....... and although I knew they were probably no good for our search .... maybe somebody looking at this thread for Dobells may be able to claim them !! ..... plus as you know - War Memorials etc are close to my heart !!
Annie :)
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Dear Annie, Mary A, Tazzie, RT, Wendi, Linda and everyone else that has contributed towards this thread,
I have been enthralled with your detective work and dedication to get michal a result he so wishes.
I hope this has a happy ending for everyone, keep up the hardwork, you are all a credit to Rootschat. WELL DONE!!!
Gail
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I've got Nora May Dobell's will on one-hour order (just squeaked in before the 3pm deadline!) so will go out into the gale to collect it at 4pm.
Anna :)
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I've got Nora May Dobell's will on one-hour order (just squeaked in before the 3pm deadline!) so will go out into the gale to collect it at 4pm.
Anna :)
Anna !
Thank you ! Please don't get blown away !! :P
Annie :) :) :) :)
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Anna.... Thank you again
I have just caught up today. So are we now concentrating on Nora...and I cannot remember have we done possible birth's
Tazzie
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Right then. I have Nora May Dobell's will in my sticky paw.
Sole executor was Barclays Bank Trust Company of 54 Lombard St, City of London.
Nora died 8 Dec 1981 and lived at 5 St Peter's Close, Heswall, Wirral, Merseyside. Will was made on 19 Jan 1978.
Unfortunately there is no sign of any children of hers. She left lots of bequests - some to cousins with surname Crease, others to the vicar, the housekeeper, the gardener and sundry other individuals. Most of the residue she left to a brother-in-law (husband's brother) and his children.
Witnesses seem to be staff at Barclays Bank Trust Company.
As before, copies on request by pm or (for those who already have my address) e-mail.
Anna
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Annie:
It has been very satisfying to see the help that you and the group at RootsChat have given to Michel. He is dedicated to finding the relatives, if they exist, of Lt. Stead and returning the ID bracelet medallion. I know something of his passion for this quest. His dream was to reunite the tag with the family.
One needs only a brief visit to Flanders to get a strong measure of the sacrifice buried in those fields. The reason for my journey there in December of 2005 was to find the grave of my great uncle and accompany my father to same. I did not realize as I set out on that journey that my father and I would not only find and honor the grave of William Henry Jeffcott, but we would cross the bridge of friendship with Michel.
Michel, as the town administrator and the only English speaker in the city offices of Fleurbaix, greeted my father and me as friends and helped us find information about the situation of our relative in the days before his all-too-young end in 1915.
We believe my great uncle was the last of the Jeffcott line.
On her deathbed in 1999 at age 100, my grandmother Henrietta (Jeffcott) Murray, expressed her greatest regret in life as the inability of anyone from our family to find and visit the final resting place of her dear brother, Willy. All that she had to go on for over 80 years were some last letters from the front and a wartime postal card from an officer describing the general locale of his burial site. But, of course, the details of our search and the mysteries that remain are not the subject of this effort.
Michel shared with us the metal tag which he had found years before. My dad, a former Royal Navy Frogman (WWII) and an immigrant to America in 1947, helped with some deciphering of the inscription (C of E for Church of England and NOT Corps of Engineers) and I offered the suggestion that the tag was lost by a survivor of the conflict. Happily, in so much as our concern for Lt. Stead, this was found to be true as his service record proves. Experts from the Great War Forum were of much assistance in this determination. But, until now, Michel has been unable to add much to his search for survivors of the veteran, Lt. Stead.
So, to answer your question directly, I am very much impressed with the information you and the team are finding. But I am much more heartened by the giving spirit and the demonstration of love for humanity by your group of 21st century researchers in England on behalf of a good man in France seeking peaceful reconciliation with the survivors of a soldier who spent the early years of his manhood fighting a war in that Frenchman’s backyard nearly a century ago.
And as the father of Lt. Andrew David Murray, US Army Corps of Engineers, and as one who stands for peace in this increasingly violent world, I say, what a beautiful world it is! It is more beautiful today because of all of you!
Thank you!
Andrew D. Murray Sr.
www.williamhjeffcott.blogspot.com
Moderator comment: email address removed in accordance with Rootschat policy. Please use the PM system to exchange personal details
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Hi Andrew !
I'm very glad that you replied ! and I also thank you for your moving post !
It's hard to put into words what happens here ..... I know for myself I start with the thrill of the chase - but then the amazing information is found ..... and although the information is serious - we can have fun and a giggle with it too .... and I just seem to take off from there ......... people from all walks of life and from all over the world come together and spend time and give freely of their knowledge and it turns into a wonderous thing !
I'm glad Michel chose us to help him and I just hope that we can bring his hopes to fruition !!
Thanks again !
Annie :)
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Hi Andrew,
Well I just had a little whinge reading what you said there, anybody got any tissues handy?
Welcome to Rootschat and I hope we manage to get a good result after all our chasing about. I can only agree with the sentiments Annie has said, we do try our best to do a good bit of research, but we also manage to have a bit of fun along the way.
You yourselves also produced the excellent results which started us off on our trail.
Best wishes to you and your family.
Anna, once again thanks so much for running around to get the Will, another good result. I hoep you aren't too windblown, I know I had a horrendous journey home taking 2 1/4 hours for a usual 3/4 hour trip with motorways closed down along the way.
I would appreciate a copy of the Will, you have my email address already.
I'm wondering by the time we have finished with this search that I may be able to place copies of the documents on the website for everybody to see, together with the tree and other information we have found as these dates seem to be such that the named persons may no longer be around. We can have a review later and then maybe post them for a certain length of time before the space reverts back to my own research.
Annie, do we have enough clues from Nora May Dobell that we don't need to follow up the other angle. We need to keep in mind - trying to be as specific as possible without naming names, I believe the first witness on Elizabeth's will was named in a Historic Electoral Roll at the same address as was used when she was witness. This is the person who, if still living, may only be found by personal visit.
If it's down to me I wouldn't be able to go until sometime on Sunday anyway, so a consensus of opinion before then would be good.
No response as yet from the Gateacre Society.
Mary
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Hmmm something that's a little puzzling here ....
Norah Joyce Crease born 27 Sep 1914 died Nov 2003 aged 89 Liverpool
Birth of Nora J Crease December qtr 1914 ROMFORD mother's name PAYNE oooops!
I hope I wasn't the only one making the assumption that she was the daughter of Robert Miller Crease and Constance Pooley, especially since Historical Electoral Rolls had her living in the same house as a Constance J Crease in Liverpool, I now believe this would have been the Aigburth area of Liverpool.
So this Constance J Crease may not be the same one as the Constance E Pooley who married Robert Miller Crease.
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Not required any longer
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MaryA...that is so wonderful :)...a BIG PAT on the back from me :) what a fascinating thread this as been..and more to come...there have been some very interesting threads on the board..but this one as really as kept me glued....thankyou to all who have contributed..this is exciting stuff and touching :) :) :)
Derek.
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That's nice of you Derek, I only wish we could get a breakthrough and find a descendant. It's frustrating as well as fun!
Mary
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All of you WILL get there MaryA...I know ;) ;) ;)????...this is one for a happy ending :) :) :)
Take care :)
Derek.
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Annie, do we have enough clues from Nora May Dobell that we don't need to follow up the other angle. We need to keep in mind - trying to be as specific as possible without naming names, I believe the first witness on Elizabeth's will was named in a Historic Electoral Roll at the same address as was used when she was witness. This is the person who, if still living, may only be found by personal visit.
If it's down to me I wouldn't be able to go until sometime on Sunday anyway, so a consensus of opinion before then would be good.
Mary
Hi Mary !
I hate to put the onus on you to do the follow along as you've done so much already !! and especially in this bad weather ..........
so if .... and that's a big IF ..... the weather is OK - and you feel OK ....... then I think a visit would be good - and maybe even for her too !! :) and I just KNOW she'd enjoy you too !! ;D ;D ;D
Annie :)
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*Sigh* she says, as she once again packs her napkin and slings it on a stick over her shoulder and treks off once again into the wild blue yonder in search of the fairy godmother .....
All being well she's still alive, she would be at least 80!!!
Half of Liverpool by now think I'm pretty much of a looney, every time I'm picking up the phone these days I tend to start "Hello, although it may sound like it, this is NOT a crank call, but it's a bit of a long story, do you have a day or two to listen ....."
;D ;D ;D
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Mary,
I do like your humor !
Michel
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Mary,
I do like your humor !
Michel
That's What Keeps Us Going! ::) ;)
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I too have been popping in and out of this thread to see how you have all been putting this together you are truly a great bunch well done to you all
Elizabeth
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*Sigh* she says, as she once again packs her napkin and slings it on a stick over her shoulder and treks off once again into the wild blue yonder in search of the fairy godmother .....
All being well she's still alive, she would be at least 80!!!
Half of Liverpool by now think I'm pretty much of a looney, every time I'm picking up the phone these days I tend to start "Hello, although it may sound like it, this is NOT a crank call, but it's a bit of a long story, do you have a day or two to listen ....."
;D ;D ;D
Why don't you finish the story off properly Mary ?? ...... you usually say ..........
" I know this woman in America .... and she's crazier than me ! ....... and she wants .............. " !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Annie ::)
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And welcome to rootschat Michel
Elizabeth
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Elisabeth,
thanks for your kind message.
Michel
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Why don't you finish the story off properly Mary ?? ...... you usually say ..........
" I know this woman in America .... and she's crazier than me ! ....... and she wants .............. " !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Annie ::)
I have an idea I've mentioned her once or twice along the way ;D ;D ;D The things we do for our friends ::) ::)
Guess you can tell I went to the pantomime last weekend then ;D
We could do with some fresh suggestions, I think my brain is getting bogged down in where we've been, can anyone see any new lines of attack?
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Andrew,
You are to kind with me, you make me in tears.
You are my friend for ever
Michel
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I think this is an old family friend .... look at the regiment !! :)
Medal card of Baker Horace C
Machine Gun Corps
157577
Private
Date
1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/014n/
Annie :)
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Snippets ......... don't know if they will be any good !! :P
Barnston: Christ Church, Wirral
http://www.acny.org.uk/8047/
No sign of Archdeacon H L Williams - wonder if an email to the church would help ??
Surnames mentioned in Monumental Inscriptions
The name Dobell is included ........ Christ Church, Barnton, Cheshire
http://www.rootschat.com/links/014p/
Wish we were doing old family Dobells in Somerset
http://www.rootschat.com/links/014q/
Annie :)
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I found the one name study ........... I am hopeless with search ...... can anybody get anything from here ??
I could only find what we already know !!
http://www.stead-steedons.co.uk/cgi-bin/urlsrch/urlsrch.cgi
Annie :) :) :-\
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Annie,
That one-name study is the site where I originally found the details of Robert' Stead's death and the name of his widow - a long way back - a whole week ago !! Like you I didn't find anything else there that we don't know already.
There are some names and addresses in Nora's Will to be followed up - I just got a copy from Anna (thanks again Anna!)
I was sort of hoping that this isn't him http://www.stead-steedons.co.uk/probate/192b/p1926b18.htm , but I checked the GRO deaths and there is a Robert William Stead age 30 registered in Liverpool 4Q 1926 8b p73. The age is right.
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Nora's main beneficiary died in 1986:
Arthur Edward Dobell
Birth Date: 7 Oct 1907
Death Registration Month/Year: Nov 1986
Yeovil Somerset vol: 23 page: 1567
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Arthur Edward Dobell birth was registered in Edmonton 4Q 1907 vol 3a p660
(George Galloway Dobell was registered in Edmonton 3Q 1901 3a p617)
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There's an interesting Bootle address of her "cousin" in the Will, however, checking the place out on streetmap.co.uk I don't believe it's going to be one house, or even whether it was at that time. No idea how much free time I'm going to have over the weekend but if there's a chance to travel past there I will see what is there now.
Annie, you talk about who "deserves" Michel's wrist tag, but I've had it pointed out to me that there maybe a legal issue in that it should really belong to the next of kin/beneficiary of the will, regardless of what we feel about it. Having said that, if we find the next of kin and they aren't interested, I don't suppose they would be bothered what we did with it ie finding somebody who cared about it.
Mary
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Regarding ownership of the wrist tag, I guess originally it was the property of His Majesty's War Department. It was lost in France, and then found by Michel many years later. It has very little intrinsic value. I don't know what French law would say, but my sense is that it's really Michel's property now, to do with as he wishes.
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Mary and retirintype,
I have just read attentively your last messages.
Allow me to bring a small precision to you: it does not seem that the wrist tag to belong to the regulatory equipment provided by HMWE,It seems it was a private purchase carried out by R W STEAD.
In France, and in particular on the westernfront, thousands, maybe millions of objects belonging to the base at HMWE are preserved by thousands of collectors, tens of museums, as well public as private, without the law French not being occupied any, put aside the weapons and the ammunitions in all kind.
Imagine, just only one moment, that all these objects must turn over to England.
Friendly
Michel
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Excuse me, read HMWD.
Michel
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Morning everybody !
I heard from the "Echo " ..... I sent a second email to the Editor and here's the reply
Dear Annie,
I'm sorry but I can't remember receiving your original email.
I have forwarded this one to Colin Hunt, who may be able to help.
Ali
Alastair Machray,
Editor, Liverpool Echo.
0151 4722507
Dear Annie,
I have searched our archive for material relating to Robert William Stead but unfortunately have found nothing, I have therefore passed your email on to our features department who have agreed to make an appeal in the Liverpool Echo in the hopes of getting some feedback for you. I am sure they will make contact with you shortly and publish the appeal in our paper at their earliest opportunity.
I hope this is to your satisfaction.
Best wishes,
Brian
Brian Johnston
Editorial Library Supervisor
Trinity Mirror NW2
PO Box 48
Old Hall Street
Liverpool L69 3EB
0151 472 2484
Brian.Johnston[at]Liverpool.com
Annie :)
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Excellent Annie!
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Michel,
I hope that would be the case, that it was more or less your property.
Great stuff Annie, I hope they run a feature soon !!! Keep us up to date and when it's in I'll have the article scanned and posted here.
Mary
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hello Annie,
you do really an extraordinary work.
I hope that the newspaper will be able to publish a message and that somebody will react.
still an enormous "MERCI"
Michel
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My schoolgirl French translated all but the last word réagir = react ;D
Wow it's amazing what you brain remembers isn't it?
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Morning again ..... I'm dragging a bit this am !! ;) ;)
I believe Michel has already looked into all the legistics regarding the bracelet and as he already said it was not standard issue ... men bought their own ... !!
RT ......... I'm sorry ! I knew you'd already seen that one name study site ..... what I MEANT to say was ( it was late !! ) - I had gone over it again and as I'm not good with searches ........ ::) I did the directories too and threw up my hands !! .... I'm better with TNA !! :) :) :)
So ...... if they ask me ... what do I say ? .... can we make some kind of summary of the main points ( highlights ! ) ? ...... if we leave it for them to sort it out from this thread - something may be overlooked !!
Annie :)
PS :D :D :D :D Michel ..... you know it takes me a while to read your messages :) but I think my reply is .....
You're welcome !!
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Annie I think you need to start drafting a short paragraph, including parts from Michel's original on the first page. I have no idea how much detail they would go into but possibly just listing some of the surnames and asking whether they believe anybody would be connected might just grab their attention and encourage them to take a better look.
If you start a draft on here and then others can make suggestions if they wish and you can edit as you go along, how would that be?
Mary
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Mornin' Annie :D
I'm really sorry that it would appear that 2nd Lt. Stead, has no direct descendants, however it's great news that The Echo have agreed to publish!!
I'm with Mary, lets get all the surnames in, with more or less as you said on page 1, short and to the point. You can do that ;)
Wendi :)
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Oooo Annie....maybe a way ahead for this now.
I think the article would be a great idea and the early names need to be the ones to look at...The Stead's/ Grant's for sibling rellies ..Dobell and Crease would be worth a mention too.
If these names are around in Liverpool area now some one will spot their family name...Hurst was a second marriage so off a bit and after that it goes backwards not forwards.
Lets go for it like you I am a sucker for things like this..even old postcards I now check out addies and names....
Tazzie
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How about if we do something like this ?? !
There's an interesting topic over on Rootschat ( a free genealogy site ) where a French gentleman is looking for descendants of a Machine Gun Corps Second Lieutenant Robert William Stead who came back from WWI to Watford Road in Anfield
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,206958.0.html
His father was William Harley Stead and a group of people have been trying to find the descendents of this soldier
We would appreciate it if you ....... ( we realise you're all busy people ..... but we're banking on you being "nosy" like us !! ) could take a look and see if there would be anything you could help us with !!
It all started when we got this email from France ....
25 years ago, when I was General Secretary of the town hall of LA COUTURE, a village between ARMENTIERES and BETHUNE, just on the western front, I found, among old coins and a button of british trench coat, a piece of metal engraved in english.
Since that day, I search in the british cemeteries of my sector the grave of the man (there are many of them near my home)
In fact, with help of members of the forum and of a new friend from minnesota one day I see I mistaked, the man survived the conflict an go back alive at home Watford / Walford Road, Anfield Liverpool
The memory of this men, that I do not know haunt my spirit, my best wish is to restore the wrist tag to his descent, if it exist, that is very very important for me.
Of course, no money in this history, just to be in peace with my soul, this medal is not mine, it must go back in his real place.
Do you think someone is able to take, in a first time few photos of the house of Stead where he goes back after been discharged in 1918 ?
The man in question is ...........
2nd Lt Robert William Stead MGC ... we have a photo of what looks like a dog tag of some sort or a wrist tag with his name and regiment and also he was C of E ..........
we have copies of his service record ...... but would love to be able to give our French friend peace of mind and see if we can get this tag back to it's rightful owners !!
Thanking you in advance
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By the way Enoch ( Linda ) sent me this PM last night ... I replied to her .... but she didn't reply back .... so I'll just post what she gave me OK ?
Hi Annie
I played around with the Dobell name at A******y -
George Galloway Dobell born Edmonton ...
1901 census ... visiting Hornsey (Edmonton) is a Winfred Dobell (this spelling) - she appears to be the 16 year old daughter of Alfred and Ellen of West Kirby.
Linda
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A while back I mentioned Dobell GC & Co Ltd who had offices, warehouses and a mill in Liverpool and Bootle per 1938 Kellys.
This company also had an office in London W1 per the 1928 London telephone book, where they are described as nitrate soda importers. I haven't looked at any other directories yet
I did a search in A2A and turned up references to the company in Liverpool going back to 1912.
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Ah ....there was also a London office for Alfred Dobell & Co timber importers in Arthur Street EC4. And the Alfred Dobell that Linda identified in West Kirby was a timber broker/agent.
So we have two apparently quite separate Dobell companies with links between Liverpool and London.
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Hi RT
So we have two apparently quite separate Dobell companies with links between Liverpool and London.
I noticed this, but like you I have yet to make the connection, if there is one ??? However Alfred Dobell seems quite prominent.
While I'm here I'd just like to say thank you for all your input, you have covered a good angle and, like everyone else's it's been invaluable, but you and I have not "spoken" before :D
Wendi :)
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Thanks Wendi.
I'm putting circumstantial stuff on the board if it seems appropriate because (a) it's somewhere to park it and (b) it might help someone else to make a connection.
Incidentally the firm of Alfred Dobell & Co Ltd seems still to be in existence:
ALFRED DOBELL & CO LTD
FOREST ROW BUSINESS PARK
STATION ROAD
FOREST ROW
EAST SUSSEX
RH185DW
01342 826 333
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Annie,
A few thoughts on the synopsis of the story for the Echo, thinking about the human interest appeal of the feature (most of this they could pick up from this thread but the reporter may need some help to pick out the story):
- mention that Robert joined the MGC as a private, was wounded, and rose through the ranks to be commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant
- mention some details about people and places - who his Mum and Dad were, where they lived, what they did; his sister Nora May, and her husband George Dobell, and where they lived; and the connection to the Crease family and their music shops in Liverpool in the 1930's.
- tell the Echo about the tragically short marriage of Robert to Elizabeth Neil Grant, with Robert dying in 1926 at the age of 30 after just 5 years of marriage, and where they lived in Gateacre.
- it would be good to get a picture of Michel in the Echo, with the wrist tag; after all this quest is the result of Michel's sincere and heartfelt desire to return the tag to Robert's family
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You know what RT ? .......... You're smarter than you look in your picture on the left !! ;D ;D ;D
Seriously ! ..... thank you .... you've put a lot of thought into that and I appreciate it !!
that looks like a good outline to me ...... does anybody want to add anything ?? ....
though I think RT has covered just about everything !! :)
Michel ! .... get ready to take your picture !! :) :)
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Believe me Annie that picture is not a good likeness - I've had a haircut and you wouldn't recognise me now.
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Anna,
I wait this moment since so a long time…. of course, I am ready, I am in fright.
I follow your thread hour per hour, minute per minute, message per message!
In fact, have help from a newspaper from Liverpool was one of the first wishes I had when I entered in contact, one year ago, with Judith LAPPIN, from Machine Gun Corps Old Comrades Association, but at this moment no possibility I think.
(Judith's great grand'fater is buried in british cemetery near my home an I flowered his grave, one day,
with a withe rose, white like the dove of peace).
Michel
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Annie,
sorry, I am so excited, I call you Anna, what stupid I am !
Madame, pardonnez-moi je vous prie pour cette indélicatesse.
Michel
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Evening all...
RT .... I think you have set it all out wonderfully we do not want to put them off with too much info but we need them to bite so that says it all.
Michel... Annie does so much on this site her enthusiasm is infectious. After all the care you have given this small token I hope we can do our best to keep it treasured for the future.
Annie...over to you girl ..been up to my eyeball's last couple of days too many late nights earlier this week.
Tazzie
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michel, Bonsoir - and please no French - your English is far better than mine! Thank you for your kind messages.
We have non temps avec Rootschat ! Annie has been reveille at 4.30am in USA to view this thread!!!
Don't be frightened it will have a good result. Of that I'm sure.
You are a wonderful person, to have kept faith with this that you found, we just must wait a little longer.
Demain
Wendi :)
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Michel my friend !
You can call me what you want ...... as long as it's not late for dinner !! ;D ;D
I'm waiting for a bit of peace and quiet around here - then I'll do the draft for your perusal !!
Annie :) :)
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Annie: Thought I'd add my two cents to this thread, though I have no real info to share. I tried to read all 22 pages of this thread today, but couldn't. So I cut to the chase. Kudos to you for all the work you've done in helping to get the Lietenant's wrist medal home.
When you answer this post, you'll have 7201 posts on Rootchat--a few of which helped me with my Houston great-great-grandparents coming to Massachusetts from Glasgow. I'm sure I'll never reach your level of dedication and expertise. I think you deserve a medal of your own, and I'm sure Rootschat's new friend Michel is more deeply appreciative than he can express--though he certainly has done a great job of conveying his feelings.
Regards from the Biggest Apple of them all,
John
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Wendy,
my night are always short, but in this moment they are very very short.
Even with work I supervise corner of the eye, discretly, the progression of thread and I have difficulty of concentrating me on the job for which I am paid.
You know, in this business, I quite simply listened to my heart and my reason.
Michel
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hmmm Annie,
I do like when you call me "my friend".
please, take all the time you need
Michel
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Hi John !
Thank you so much for those nice words ...... When I first started on RootsChat I had just got the Internet and I was like a kid in a candy store .... sleepless for nights with my new found freedom !! it was a problem at first that I didn’t have Internet experience and I had some catching up to do .... hence all my posts !!
Now it's a passion and nothing gives me a bigger kick than finding somebody for someone who has been looking for years !!
Plus having a obsessive mind helps ;D ;D
Annie :)
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John,
vous avez raison, ma mauvaise pratique de l'anglais m'empêche de manifester, en termes choisis et appropriés, la profondeur de ce que je ressens pour Annie, son action pour ma cause, son incroyable dévouement, sa gentillesse si naturelle, mais je pense que de manière instinctive, elle aura très bien compris à travers mes mots maladroits, mes phrases mal tournées et mes traductions approximatives l'immensité de ma reconnaissance et de mon admiration envers elle et bien entendu envers toutes les forces des autres membres du "chat" qu'elle a si bien su fédérer autour d'elle pour faire avancer d'une incroyable manière ce formidable challenge que représente la recherche de la trace de Robert William STEAD, presque 90 ans après qu'il soit passé de la vie au trépas.....
Dire ce genre de choses est, il est vrai, beaucoup plus facile lorsque l'on s'exprime dans sa langue maternelle.
Michel
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Well according to AlTaVista this this the first part, I can't get it to do the 2nd part yet.....
you are right, my bad practice of English prevents me from expressing, in selected and adapted terms, the depth of what I feel for Annie, its action for my cause, its incredible devotion, its so natural kindness, but I think that in an instinctive way, it will have included/understood very well through my awkward words, my badly turned sentences and my approximate translations the vastness of my recognition and my admiration towards it and of course towards all the forces of the other members of the "cat"that it knew so well to federate around it to advance in an incredible manner this formidable challenge which the research of the trace of Robert William STEAD represents, almost 90 years after it passed from the life to the demise..... To say this kind of things is admittedly much easier when one expresses oneself in his mother tongue.
Edit that it's done :)
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John,
vous avez raison, ma mauvaise pratique de l'anglais m'empêche de manifester, en termes choisis et appropriés, la profondeur de ce que je ressens pour Annie, son action pour ma cause, son incroyable dévouement, sa gentillesse si naturelle, mais je pense que de manière instinctive, elle aura très bien compris à travers mes mots maladroits, mes phrases mal tournées et mes traductions approximatives l'immensité de ma reconnaissance et de mon admiration envers elle et bien entendu envers toutes les forces des autres membres du "chat" qu'elle a si bien su fédérer autour d'elle pour faire avancer d'une incroyable manière ce formidable challenge que représente la recherche de la trace de Robert William STEAD, presque 90 ans après qu'il soit passé de la vie au trépas.....
Dire ce genre de choses est, il est vrai, beaucoup plus facile lorsque l'on s'exprime dans sa langue maternelle.
Michel
Bonjour Michel,
J'essayerai de traduire vos beaux sentiments.
"John,
You are right, my lack of practice in English prevents me from expressing, in well chosen and appropriate terms, the depth of what I feel for Annie, her action for my cause, her incredible devotion, her natural kindness, but I think that by instint, she will have understood very well through my awkward words, my badly constructed sentences and my approximate translations, the immensity of my recognition and my admiration towards her and of course towards all the efforts of the other members of the "chat" who she knew were around in order to make progress in such an incredible manner on the formidable challenge posed by finding traces of Robert William STEAD, almost 90 years after he passed from the life..... To say this kind of thing is truely much easier when one expresses oneself in one's mother tongue."
Regards,
Al
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Hello Michel: I agree. Je ne parle pas francais! :'( Seudois, oui. Espanol, oui. Allemand, oui. Francais, non. Anglais, un petit :D. Therefore I will write in my best language--L' Anglais d'amerique!
I think you paid Annie the supreme compliment. I also believe that our new friend Robert Stead is joining all of us on Rootschat in thanking you for doing what you are trying to do. If there is no one in England to whom the wrist medal can be returned, it is obvious to me who should keep it in his memory. Vous, mon ami, Michel.
"Je pense que Annie vous a felicité suprêmement. Je crois également que notre nouvel ami Robert Stead joindrait tout le monde de Rootschat a vous remercier pour avoir fait ce que vous essayez de faire. S'il n'y a personne en Angleterre à qui la médaille de poignet peut être retournée, c'est évidente pour moi qui devrait garder ce souvenir de Robert. Vous, mon ami, Michel!"
Translated wonderfully and expressively by alcrighton. Thank you, Al.
Regards from New York City,
John
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First of all thank you ! ..... you are all very nice to say those things and I appreciate it !
But this has been very much a team effort and I'm always "blown away " by the wonderful comradeship on RootsChat and how people go out of their way to get results and answers !! not just on this thread but all over !!
I hope we get a good result at the end of all this ...... maybe we need to take a breather for a day or so and lets see what the Echo brings !! ...... I'll work on RT's good ideas tonight and if they don't get in touch with me by tomorrow .... I'll bombard them until they do it !!
Have a great night !
Annie :) :)
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Now it's a passion and nothing gives me a bigger kick than finding somebody for someone who has been looking for years !!
Yay Annie ............ I know ...... Iknow ....... you have been a great help to me ...... Mon Ami.
Joe
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Morning All!
Bonjour Michel!
Firstly to Annie about your article for the Echo. Please include a note of the names - something along the lines of.
"Names which have married into this family and which might be known to connect to the family are Crease, Dobell, Richards, Keay, Butterworth."
And I for one would appreciate it if you would update the original on PAGE 21, rather than having additional drafts along this thread, until finally getting something that you are happy with. I think it would be a good idea if you posted an "updated - see Page 21" message as I did when updating the website, then we will know its been changed to check back on it.
Believe me Annie that picture is not a good likeness - I've had a haircut and you wouldn't recognise me now.
Oh shucks, and I always liked guys with long hair ;D
Mary
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Mary - the page 21 thing that you suggest doesn't work for everybody. My preferences are set up to show all threads with latest posts at the top - so your page 21 is my page 2.
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Mary - the page 21 thing that you suggest doesn't work for everybody. My preferences are set up to show all threads with latest posts at the top - so your page 21 is my page 2.
Oh I hadn't thought of that, that means that entries you read change pages as more is added?
I think I'll stick to my method, it's easier to find entries :D
Mary
Moderator Comment:
You can also say "on Reply #302" or give the exact address of Reply #302;
the reply numbers stay the same, regardless of which order you have them.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,206958.msg1070378.html#msg1070378
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Hmmmm Annie,
I just realised.... I think maybe you should also take off the last line of Michel's original request about taking photographs of his house - somebody else lives there now!!!
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Good idea Mary.....The new owner might not appreciate a hoard of photo hunters on the doorstep.
A letter to them direct though I thought would be o.k.
Tazzie
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This site shows Arthur Edward Dobell was an airforce pilot 1930-1935 and a reserve in later years. One entry (1941)has what may be his service number but I'm not clued up on things military so I may be wrong.
An 1967 entry indicates he was at Whitestaunton Manor Chard Somerset - this property does feature on the web.
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSearch.asp?WebType=0&Referer=full
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Retiringtype has suggested that as the Dobells are probably the nearest relatives, then we should try to get a copy of Arthur's Will to see if we can trace any more of his descendants that way. I've asked for help on this from our friend who works nearby :D :D :D
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Thanks Mary. Just to clarify the thinking: we know from Nora's Will that Arthur Dobell had sons. Robert Stead was their Aunt Nora's brother. This is a closer connection than the Creases who are related to Robert's Aunt Alice.
Thanks Enoch for the info on Arthur and Whitestaunton manor which is mentioned in Nora's Will. I see there was a Time Team dig there in 2004 http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/T/timeteam/2004_white.html
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Hi All !
No sign of the Echo yet ......... how long do you think I should wait ?? ???
Thought you may like to look this over ..... what do you think ( I tried to be discreet ?? ???)
DRAFT # ??
Robert William Stead was born March 22nd 1896 in West Derby Liverpool - the son of William Harley ( Master Mariner ) and Emily ( nee Richards ) Stead and lived at Watford Road Anfield Liverpool
Robert's sister Nora May Stead married George Galloway Dobell at St Andrew West Kirby in 1926 ...
His mother's sister Alice Richards married Miller Crease - who was a music seller in 1901 census ( The Dobell and Crease families are very much a part of his family tree - as well as the families - Richards Keay Butterworth)
Robert William Stead was 17 years and 5 months old when he attested to join the army for 4 years in Liverpool on 25 August 1913 He gave his address as Watford Road Anfield Liverpool the home of his father William Harley Stead who he gave as next of kin and later identified as a Master Mariner Robert who was a single man, identified his birthplace as Liverpool Lancashire - his current occupation as a bank clerk at Parr's Bank Liverpool and his religion as Church of England.
He returned the next day, for a medical examination. This revealed that he stood 5 feet 9 inches tall, weighed 10st 9lbs and had a chest measurement of 35 inches.
He was accepted into 6th Rifle battalion of the Kings Liverpool Regiment
Once in the Army - Robert William Stead became a number – 1466 to begin with - he faced a couple of months worth of drill square bashing and weapons training - in order to turn him from a bank clerk to soldier ....... Private Stead 's unit first entered the theatre of war in France in February 1915 and he was promoted to L/Cpl 28th August 1915
Yet Robert given his intelligence - was not the sort of man to remain an infantry soldier for long - in fact he was the perfect sort of person to become a member of the newly created Machine Gun Corps.
Robert William Stead # 22397 attested 20th February 1916 with 165 Brigade MGC and was promoted A/Cpl 29th March 1916 - he was sent to the Machine Gun training centre at Grantham back in England - here he familiarised himself with the workings and complexities of the Vickers .303 and heavy machine guns
He became a team player – each gun was ideally manned by a crew of eight - four men were involved in the actual firing and the other four responsible for sighting and the preparation and the bringing up of ammunition - crews in the field normally numbered six - simply because of the shortage of men.
The course only lasted approximately 6 weeks due to the intense demand for gunners. Thus Robert really only had basic training in the complexities of machine-gun warfare.
( The targets of every enemy weapon - members of the MGC were also called the Suicide Squad ) He rose through the ranks and was promoted to Second Lieutentant
Robert was wounded in the chest and thigh in August 1916 while in Abbeville and was released from the Army 20th March 1919
Coming home after the war he married Elizabeth Neil Grant in 1921 at St Simon and St Judes Church Liverpool and they moved to Gateacre .... tragically they were only married 5 years as Robert William Stead died in 1926 in Gateacre
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I have been dippin' in 'n' out of this thread for days - fascinated and absolutely blown away by the amount of information and the speed at which that information has been gathered. As I went off to look at something one of you guys had already been there done it and were wearing the T shirt ;D
Annie, do you think or not think it may be beneficial to mention Elizabeth's subequent marriage to Hurst, just in case we can get feedback from people who knew her under that surname too. Maybe (although it could be pushing the boundaries a bit) her last address etc.
Jude
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Hi Jude !
Thank you for taking an interest ! it's been quite exciting hasn't it ?? :)
I had the Hurst information in there - but then I took it out - as I was undecided whether to give that much information !! :-\
we have to be a little careful as we may be treading in places we shouldn't be treading .... if you know what I mean :) I'd hate to upset anybody ::) ::) although most of the information is in the public domain !!
I guess I 'm just waiting for clarification as I'm not sure how to proceed !!
Annie :) :)
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I doubt if you'll hear anything from The Echo before Monday as I suspect they are having the weekend off.
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Is there a local radio station who might be interested in helping you?
Nanny Jan
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Hi all: Again I can offer no help, living across the Atlantic as I do. But I would like to suggest that if no one is found to return the medal to we try to convince Michel to keep it. I wrote a reply for Michel in English to that effect in Message 323 of this topic, and Alcrighton was kind enough to translate it today into French so that Michel can read it in his mother tongue. I've just modified my original message with the translation.
My interest here is that I've read a good bit about the First World War, most recently in December while researching an essay for a course in my master's degree program. I think the Great War was one of the most foolish spectacles ever engaged in by mankind (particularly men, if there are any feminists reading). A whole generation of European youth were ordered to get up and charge into certain death. What fools those mortals, their generals, were. Anyone who suffered through that carnage certainly deserves to be remembered and honored as all of you--especially Michel--are remembering Robert Stead. And the world needs to be reminded that war--unless it's strictly defensive--is simply a stupid endeavor.
End of pontification,
John
P.S. My own English grandfather, who emigrated to the U.S. in 1905 as a boy almost had the misfortune of being inducted into the British Army in 1915, when, thinking he was safe because he lived in America, he innocently returned to England for a visit. My DNA thanks him for getting out of that fix safely.
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Wonder if the gardener in Nora's will - would know of more family and could direct us to someone ?
He seems to have been well thought of :)
Annie :)
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Hello all,
absent from the house all the day, I take again the reading and the translation of the messages starting from N°325 in this moment, it is 12.15 am.
Annie, how have you made to also clearly summarize the life of Robert STEAD? it is impressive !
John and Al, I read with much interest your messages.
many tanks to all those who help in the research an prospose new ideas to progress (Mary, RT etc...)
Michel
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Good Sunday Morning to all!
To bring you up to date on my doings yesterday afternoon.
Firstly I wrote a letter to a possible descendant of the Crease family, but who doesn't live in the Merseyside area any longer, so we will need to wait until at least the middle of next week to see if we get any response, although I have included my email and telephone number for contact.
Then I went on a Magical Mystery Tour.
Firstly I checked the house where the last known Crease lived, possible husband of the one I wrote to, just to see whether they were able to tell me anything about previous owners, whether they had died or just moved away etc. Unfortunately nobody was at home. :(
Then I drove past Victoria Road where Elizabeth Hurst died. It is a huge building which is probably now individual flats or sheltered accommodation, although there was no sign outside to say so, this might be why Annie could find no mention of this address.
Eshe Road is where Elizabeth wrote her Will, where one of the witnesses lived (name was difficult to read) and also the address of the beneficiary. Again this is a large old house and together with the one next door appear to be individual accommodation in the form of flats run by the Abbeyfield Society. There were various names on the doorbells but none of them meant anything to our search. The only other bell was for the office, so of course I tried this and also knocked on the door - can you believe there was no answer!
My last call was to a flat in Nicholas Road, Crosby where I believe the other witness to the Will lived - Alice M Chaddock. Although it was a little difficult to read this is what I made of the name and it was confirmed by an entry in the Historical Electoral Rolls at the address. This was the only address where I found somebody in, unfortunately the lady of the house said that Alice had died about four years ago. Another dead end.
I suppose since Elizabeth died in 1990 it's really hardly surprising that I was chasing dead ends but maybe it was worth it to just eliminate this line of enquiry. The only thread of this left is the actual beneficiary herself who we don't know anything about. I could try a letter to Eshe Road but I have a feeling that I wouldn't get very far with that, any mention about being a beneficiary in a will would make them think it was a begging letter.
I have a photograph of each of the houses but I'm not sure they would be worth posting unless anybody really wants to see any.
After that I went out partying to cheer me up ;D ;D
Mary
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Oh Mary what a day..Again all so close but yet so far. So we had the one name right but beaten by the years.
I too am disappointed that nobody answered you at the office in Eshe Road if the warden had been there a while they may know who we are looking for. So now the waiting game...weekends! They can slow things down can't they? LOL !
Tazzie
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Yes, we do seem to have slowed down a little, however the reverse is true, without the Saturday afternoon I wouldn't have been able to make the trek down to Crosby :) :)
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Okey dokey....we wont count Saturday...I spent mine grovelling through PR's in library...couldn't do that if boys did not go to Nana's ;D
Tazzie
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Hi Mary !
What a Magical Mystery Tour you and Monty took !! :) :)
I know you're disappointed ..... it would have been really wonderful to find somebody with answers ! ..... I can only say "thank you" to you for trying so hard !!
I just hope you had a really good time partying ( hope you had one for me !! ;D ;D ;D ) you deserved it after all of that !!
I'm hoping tomorrow being Monday - will bring fresh news and ideas !
Enjoy the rest of your weekend !!
Annie :)
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Mary,
I am at the same time confused and charmed to understand that you sacrificed your week end to seek new elements in this fabulous investigation.
I thank you very very much, my heart is with you and, as John said previously, Robert STEAD, where that he is, perhaps in the middle of nowhere, must be happy from what occurs for its memory.
Michel
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Hi all: Just thought I read the new replies. Mary, you are amazing! You really deserve a pat on the back for being such a busy bee yesterday. I'd be interested in seeing pictures of the places you visited, if you're up to posting them.
Psst, everyone but Mary: She's all the more amazing since in her Rootschat profile she declares that she's 154 years old! (I was so stunned to learn that a few months back that I had to send her a birthday greeting when her day was announced on the bottom of the home page.) And to top off her whirlwind day, she spent last night partying. (I'll bet it was eating and dancing and drinking and lots of young admirers crowding about, wasn't it?) I'm well over 140 years younger than she is, and my weekend excitement consisted of falling asleep at 11:30 pm with a book that I was too tired to read--in New York City, no less!
But I suggest that our pats on her back should be soft and gentle ones. People her age need the sensitive touch. :D :D :D
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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;D ;D ;D ;D
Hiya again Johnnyboy,
It was a good party last night, next door neighbour's 40th combined with his son's 18th, I tripped the light fantastic, loadsa boogeying, yes I do remember the twist from my youth ;D so I'm glad I did the run around yesterday afternoon as I certainly wasn't up to it today ;D ;D
Mary :)
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OK - photos!
First one is the suspected last known residence of Robert I Crease, not mentioning the address since it's now somebody else who lives there, or at least I would believe so. Address was obtained from the Will of Norah May Dobell who mentioned him as "cousin".
Next is 14 Victoria Road, Waterloo where Elizabeth Hurst died. I have amended my previous posting as I incorrectly had this as where she was living when she wrote the Will. Judging by other properties in the street this could have been some kind of nursing home at the time, but doesn't appear to be so now as there isn't a sign outside, but a couple of cars which make me assume that it is now flats.
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Eshe Road is definitely sheldered accommodation with occupants seemingly having individual rooms and their own bells. At some time in the past it has been joined to the house on the right to make larger premises and the little white door set in there is where the bells are, I did go inside the first door and there was another, locked, seemingly to the office, nobody at home :(
The last is where the witness Alice M Chaddock lived, in Nicholas Road. Although it's a more modern building, probably built around the 1950's I would think, it's still in the same general area and occupants of these flats probably have a "few bob" as we say ;D
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14 Victoria Road, Waterloo where Elizabeth Hurst died.
If walls could talk huh Mary ?? ............ I've been just staring at that photo .... willing it to tell us something !! :)
They are all great pictures !
It seems I've been on the same path as you today .... everywhere I tried - has been a dead end !! :-\
Glad you had a good time ... at least you didn't have far to "roll home " ......... ;D ;D ;D
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I wonder where Robert's medals are ? and I wonder if Robert's will is available .......
I've been looking for photos .... but I can't find anything in my resources .... yet !!
He was commissioned into the MGC on 26-1-1918
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=
I'm still looking ! I did find a picture of the MGC plaque !
Albert was the main town behind the lines for the Allies nearest to the 1916 Somme Battlefields. It lies on the main D929 road that runs east to Bapaume across the Somme battlefields, and west to Amiens in the other direction (although the D929 now diverts to the south around Albert, the original road still runs through it).
For a town at the heart of the Briitsh activities in this region, there are surprisingly few Great War sights to see in Albert. Devastated during the war and rebuilt afterwards, it has to be said that it is not as attractive a city as Ypres. As a base for battlefield touring both accomodation and restaraunts are fairly limited. However, it is an important location on the battlefield, and this page describes what there is to be seen. In terms of the history of the war, Albert came to be associated with the British when their troops took over the lines here in the summer of 1915. After the war, Albert was 'adopted' by Birmingham.
Not far from the Basilica is the Hotel de Ville, and on the wall by the entrance is a plaque commemorating the Machine Gun Corps. It was unveiled just before the Second World War, and commemorates the 13,791 of the Machine Gun Corps who died, and the 48,258 wounded or missing during the Great War.
http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/somme/albert.html
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Morning Annie, Catching up with were you are all up to on your quest. Can't open the Gazette link. can you verify the link for us interested rooters,
well done
tisgrannie
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Morning All, Monday is with us again.
In response to my letter to Robert Crease's widow I received a telephone call from her this morning. She has advised me that so far as she is aware there are no Creases left. Her husband Robert who was born in Cannongate, Edinburgh had no children, nor did his three sisters.
She has been through her husband's documents and has discovered nothing which might help us.
We had followed the correct line as his parents were Robert Crease and Euphemia Keay.
Robert Crease had a cousin, also Robert, whose father had taken over the music business - yes they were the Creases who had the music shop on County Road, Walton - and this cousin and his wife lived in Maghull, unfortunately she believes that they are also now deceased and that they didn't have any children.
She has my contact details and if she comes across anything at all she will get in touch. She was interested to hear of the search and had looked a little at the Crease family history without much success in the past.
I have to say that I think following up the Arthur Edward Dobell line is pretty far away from our original Robert William Stead. If he had been the child of Norah May Stead I would have agreed that he be classed as "family" but this is her brother in law and his children so no blood relation at all.
I've nevertheless asked Anna about obtaining the Will of Arthur Edward Dobell which she has agreed to do sometime during this week but I would appreciate the opinion of others as to whether this really would be worth it or not so that we can confirm whether she should or not, asap.
Unless Annie's article for the Liverpool Echo throws up an unexpected lead I'm afraid that I now feel we have exhausted all the avenues I can think of.
I would appreciate input from anybody following this thread as to whether you agree with me, alternatively I would welcome your suggestions as to where we can go from here.
Mary
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Hi Mary......
To be honest I think that the Dobell line is now too far removed from the family line we needed. So I think we should leave off the will for Arthur as I do not believe we need to go down that line.
We have alot of info but I think we must now open it up to the newspaper to follow leads.
It seems a pity that the whole line seems to have dwindled around this time with very few of the marriages leading to children...we could have hit the one thing that bugs us all ...a brickwall..
Tazzie
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Hi Mary,
If all the publicity fails to find anyone; would a local museum be interested?
Nanny Jan
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hi Mary,
I agree completely with you
Michel
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Hi nanny Jan,
as soon as I understood that Robert William STEAD and his sister Norah had no child, I already thought, if I did not keep the wrist tag, of giving it to a museum in England.
Michel
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Hi All,
I did post a message a while ago congratulating everyone who had helped with this posting and I have followed it intigued with what you have all discovered.
Mary A & Tazzie. I agree that the Dobell line is too far removed from Robert William Stead and would probably hold no meaning to them.
Michel.. If you think the time is right for you to give up this wrist tag after keeping it for 25 years without being able to pass it on to any of Roberts immediate family then a museum in Liverpool would be quite apt.
Gail
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Hi All !
I've emailed the Echo this morning to see if we can get our article in sometime soon !! ( impatient Annie strikes again !! )
I agree with everything you say Mary ........ bit of an anticlimax isn't it ?? feels like Christmas when it was so exciting .... but didn't get exactly what you wanted !! :P :P
I've been trying to follow all the Armed Forces avenues to see if we can get a photo at least .... nothing yet but I'll leave no stone unturned ...... ( as they say !! ) ::) ::)
Here's some pictures of M G C in WW1 that are interesting ! ....... just to keep us going !! :)
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-weapons/vickers.htm
Thanks Mary for talking to Robert Crease's widow ........... interesting we were right about the music shop on County Road Walton ....... !! :)
I'll post as soon as I hear something OK ?
Annie :)
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Hi everyone!
Thank you Mary for your most recent post. I'm so glad Robert's widow called, and I agree we have exhausted all near relatives.
Annie, we have found out an 'ell of a lot, and sadly there are do direct relatives, but without the journey nothing would be known. Of course we should persue the Echo.
In the light of our findings the final decision is of course Michel's, who now knows the truth about the owner of the tag.
Well me, I thank you all for the journey, and you know us Annie, always looking for that photo ;) !!!
Wendi :)
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OK, now this is not to conclude matters as we still have the chance of the Liverpool Echo, when they get around to replying to you Annie, of throwing up a successful contact, but I've made preliminary enquiries with Liverpool Museum to see what Michel's other options could be.
I spoke with the Curator of the Kings Regiment, Liverpool Museum. He told me that the Machine Gun Corps was a WWI only organisation and so quite short lived, however, from what I told him of Annie's posting on the first page of the medal card details, it seems as though
Stead, Robert William
Liverpool Regiment
1466
Private
Machine Gun Corps
22397
Lance Corporal
Machine Gun Corps
means that he was in the Regiment that they are interested in before he changed to the Machine Gun Corps. I confirmed the Liverpool connections that Robert William stead had, his two addresses in Anfield and Gateacre.
There is no guarantee that the Museum would accept this wrist tag, but what will happen is that the Officers Committee of the Curators will meet to look into the question of whether they could accept and agree to look after it in perpetuity.
He asked whether Michel will be sending it to England, to which I replied that this was his plan when a place was found for it.
The Curator will look at this thread, although I tried to give him a short version, he assured me that he would read it all through, I think maybe he was a bit intrigued by our research and then contact me when he's checked out firstly that the connections would make it an appropriate item for them to accept and secondly that the Committee have agreed to be able to keep and maintain it.
The reference number for his file is Offer Number 3100 which is good to keep a note of with this thread.
Annie if you manage to turn up a photo that would be icing on the cake wouldn't it, keep trying girl!
All I can say now is
Please Mr Curator, we'd just like this wrist-tag to have an appropriate home. :D
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I would just like to echo the words of Mary...please please please if you could see a way to find a good home for this small but meaningful item. It could have been a token from his family for his safe return ..what ever outcome.
Michel has has been caretaker of this little gem for so long and it would mean so much to him as well if it could come HOME.
So I hope that my little plea on behalf of Mr Robert Stead MGC -who we have all grown a little attached to will have a very happy ending.
Thank you all
Tazzie
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To all (Esp Annie) and Mary A
What you have done with you 'n' yours is nothing short of fantastic.
All I ask is that this is remembered. A man was willing to give up his life for the freedom of others whether it was asked or not. That wrist tag probably meant very little to him just to ensure that he was treated medically and or buried/given a memorial that respected his beliefs. Fortunately our man came through although his tag did not! (Look on the bright side)
Today however, that tag, should his descendants know of it, will mean the world. I mean - the absolute world.
Just because this wrist tag of a soldier is just that - a wrist tag - it should not diminish what it's true lesson to us all is. My father fought in another War - and fortunately came through it all in one piece - his medals still in a draw after 60 years. They may have meant nothing to him as he HAD to fight - they meant and do mean everything to me.
The wrist tag should be kept by those who care and understand it most. May it's effect never lessen itself on us all. Michel (mon ami ) you have given a window to show us all how selfless one can be in the pursuit of "doing the right thing" (I do hope you can translate this one of you!!!)
Always the small things in life that can mean so much - eh Gang!
Jude
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Hey Jude!!
What a beautifully written letter after this great journey we have been on watching this link evolve. I agree with your thoughts on the reality of the situation.
Praise to Michel on his sentiment. His actions on the wrist tag reflect the thanks his countrymen show the men who sacrificed so much for their freedom.
It is very moving, after all these years that people still show their gratitude.
Hopefully the article in the Echo will bring up a living contact who cares as much as all of you do, here on roots. What a band of brothers and sisters you all are!!!!
god bless you all
tisgrannie
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Tisgrannie ..... you and kidsnana are a very special pair of ladies yourselves ..... !
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,156425.0.html
We're all lucky - to be surrounded by such nice people !!
Annie :) :) :)
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Hi Annie you just gave me a lovely warm feeling around my heart. Thank you.
from tisgrannie and her best friend kidsnana
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Bonsoir à tous,
C'est difficile pour moi de dire ce que je pense en anglais, alors je vais le faire en français et vous traduirez dans la langue de Shakespear si vous le désirez.
Merci beaucoup pour vos paroles, souvent charmantes et pertinentes, vous êtes si nombreux à vous adresser à moi dans les messages que je suis un peu perdu et ma lenteur à écrire en (mauvais) anglais ne me permet pas de répondre à chacun d'entre vous individuellement, comme j'aimerais tant pouvoir le faire.
Plusieurs de vos messages m'ont fait fondre en larmes.... je suis un grand sensible !
Je m'adresse donc maintenant à vous tous qui avez pris la peine de suivre Annie, relevé le défi, car c'était un défi, et vous êtes lancés dans cette fabuleuse aventure, pour un français inconnu mais sincère, qui a eu l' outrecuidance un jour de lui demander, sans détour, par internet (quelle belle invention) : "Annie, vivez-vous à LIVERPOOL ?".
Je m'adresse aussi à ceux qui ont suivi, jour après jour, la progression des recherches, à ceux qui ont simplement lu les messages, à ceux qui ont amené des réflexions, des avis et des conseils pleins de sagesse et d'humanité, ceux qui ont compris, dans un petit message de quelques lignes la motivation qui m'anime depuis si longtemps (en réalité, j'ai trouvé le wrist tag en juin 1977 quand j'ai pris mes fonctions à la Mairie de LA COUTURE).
j'espère de tout mon coeur que la parution de l' article dans le journal "ECHO" de LIVERPOOL sera utile et provoquera le déclic qui permettra de trouver une fin heureuse à cette affaire.
Je n'avais qu'une crainte, que Robert William STEAD ait encore été de ce monde au moment où j'ai commencé à le chercher et que, par manque de réussite dans ma maladroite recherche, je l'ais en quelque sorte manqué, raté, dans l'espace temps.
Imaginez un instant qu'un jour je sois allé frapper à sa porte et lui dire : "bonjour Monsieur STEAD, je viens de France vous rapporter ce que vous y avez perdu pendant la guerre, il y un demi siècle" !
J'ai souvent imaginé cette scène dans mes phantasmes les plus fous, j'ai même un jour rêvé que Robert avait mon visage et mon corps... allez comprendre ce que cela pourrait bien vouloir dire...
Bien sûr, je suis désolé que sa vie ait été si courte et qu'il n'ait pas pu couler des jours heureux après les souffrances qu'il a du endurer au front, son corps blessé, son âme meurtrie par les horreurs que ses yeux ont vues dans la boue des tranchées.
je crois qu'un jour, quand tout ceci sera terminé et que la médaille de Robert aura trouvé une place qui corresponde parfaitement à sa véritable signification, j'écrirai, peut-être pas un livre, mais plutôt un petit receuil, court et facile à lire, pour expliquer ce qui m'a un jour amené à entreprendre cette démarche.
Excusez-moi, je vous prie d'avoir été si long.
Michel KNOCKAERT
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TRANSLATION for us lot! ;D ;D ;D
Good evening with all, It is difficult for me to say what I think in English, then I will make it in French and you will translate in the language of Shakespear if you wish it. Thank you very much for your words, often charming and pertinantes, you are so numerous to address to you to me in the messages which I am a little lost and my slowness to be written in (bad) English does not allow me to answer each one among you individually, as I would like so much to be able to do it. Several of your messages dissolved to me in tears.... I am large sensitive! I thus address now to you all which took the trouble to follow Annie, taken up the challenge, because it was a challenge, and you are launched in this fabulous adventure, for unknown but sincere French, who had the impertinence one day to ask him, without turning, by Internet (which beautiful invention): "Annie, you in LIVERPOOL live?". I also address myself to those which followed, day after day, the progression of research, with those which simply read the messages, to those which brought reflexions, opinions and councils full with wisdom and humanity, those which included/understood, in a small message of some lines the motivation which animates me since so a long time (actually, I found the wrist tag in June 1977 when I took my functions with the Town hall of the SEAM). I hope of all my heart that the publication of the article in the newspaper "ECHO" of LIVERPOOL is useful and causes the catch which will make it possible to find an end happy with this business. I had only one fear, that Robert William STEAD still was of this world at the time when I started with the chercheret that, for lack of success in my awkward research, I to some extent missed it, missed, in space time. Imagine one moment that one day I would have gone to strike with his door and to say to him: "hello Mr STEAD, I come from France to report to you what lost there you during the war, it there a half century"! I often imagined this scene in my most insane phantasms, I have even a dreamed day that Robert had my face and my body... will include/understand what that could agree to say... Of course, I am sorry that his life was so short and that it could not run out of the happy days after the sufferings which it has of enduring with the face, his wounded body, his ravaged heart by the horrors which its eyes saw in the mud of the trenches. I believe that one day, when all this is finished and that the medal of Robert will have found a place which corresponds perfectly to its true significance, I will write, perhaps not a book, but rather small a receuil, short and easy to read, to explain what has me one day brought to take this step. Excuse me, please have been so long.
-
Jude,
Many many thanks for your speedy translation
Simply, The SEAM is LA COUTURE
I am your obliged
Michel
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C'est ma plasir mon ami
(that is the extent of my French phrasing I am afraid)
Grand Merci pour Alta Vista!!!
J ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I dont know how everyone else feels but this bit got me
which it has of enduring with the face, his wounded body, his ravaged heart by the horrors which its eyes saw in the mud of the trenches.
Pardonez moi mes amis - said with a true Lancastrian accent there - but that bit says it all - what that this "little" wrist tag witnessed.
All the more reason why this "petit" tag should find a "maison" to live in - n'est pas???
J
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Jude,
for : wich it has of enduring with the face, please read with the front"line"
Michel
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medal card
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Thanks Kev ! :) :)
I'm such a dufuss at posting that stuff !
Wonder how come he only got one medal ??
Annie :) :)
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He has 3 medals the 1915 Star he got when he was in the Kings.
Then the BWM & VM would have him as a S/Lt in the MGC.
So on the 1915 Star Should be 1466 Pte R.W.Stead L/Pool Regt.
On the BWM & VM Should have Lt R.W.Stead, it may or may not have MGC.
The MGC would have issue them, but the 15/Star Should have the L/pool Regt on it
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Many thanks Roy ! :) :)
Should have known better shouldn't I ?? ??? ???
Annie :) :) :)
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I've read through all the last messages and also about the trip Tisgranny and Kidsnana made and I've had another winge, more tissues please. What an emotional trip this is.
Whilst waiting for the Echo, I would like to make more enquiries as to his burial place, I would think that he must have a headstone.
I'm a little disappointed in the Gateacre Society who have not responded as I'd hoped they might have been able to tell me the most likely place that he was buried. I've once again been in touch with the office at St Stephens and a message is being passed on to the archivist there, who is a very busy man so no guarantees as to whether he will get back to me with any information.
The lady in the office believed that Allerton Cemetery might have been the one and indeed as it was opened in 1909 it would certainly be appropriate for date. There is a transcribed list of MI's on here http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/allertoncemetery but I don't see his name.
I also tried Anfield as there are over 30,500 names transcribed on here http://liverpool-ancestors.co.uk/ but again without success.
That's not to say that either of these are the wrong places, just that they may not have been transcribed yet.
The last resort might be to pays our money and get them to do the search and give us the details.
Anybody got any friends in the Cemeteries Department ........ ::) ;D ;D
Mary
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good evening Mary
please, can you say to me how much money this would cost it to make research ?
Michel
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Good afternoon Michel,
No I can't, but I've booked a call back. There is nowadays one central telephone number which accepts these enquiries, they are sent to where the central list is and they will contact me.
Mary
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Morning Everybody !............... Well I've been trying a different tack .................. ::) what do you think ??
1892 Walton St Mary Liverpool
William H Stead
Emily Richards
2012WD/16/157
1870
New York Ward 8 District 16, New York, New York
Robt Richards 36 England
Honora 33 England
Emily 8 England
Walter 4 England
Rob W 1 USA
1881
65 Stanfield Rd Everton
Robert Richards 47 Head Exeter Devon Insurance Agent
Annie Richards 41
Emily Richards 18
Robert Richards 11
Walter Richards 15
Alice Richards 7
RG11/3665 Folio 44 Page 15
1891
74 Rockfield Road, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool
Robert Richards Head M 56 Insurance? Agent ?? Lancashire
Anora Wife M 50 Liverpool
Emily daur S 28 Professor of Music Liverpool
Waltor son M 25 Ship's Steward Liverpool
Robert W Son S 21 Insurance AGent New York USA
Alice daur 17 New York USA
RG12/2979; Folio 61; Page 22
1901
2 Albert Drive Orrell and Ford
Robert W Richards 31 Head United States Insurance Agent
Caroline A Richards 32 wife
John E Richards 6 son
Chas Richards 4 son
Jessie C Richards 1 daughter
Norah Richards 4 months daughter
James ( in index as James but it looks like Jane E to me ! ) E Davies 26 Mothers helper
RG13/3448 Folio 41 Page 19
Medal card of
Richards, John E
Liverpool Regiment
3322
Serjeant
Liverpool Regiment
241281
Serjeant
Date
1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0159/
John E Richards would be the cousin of "our" Robert W Stead ( named after John E's father !! )
I cannot find John E in CWGC ..... so I'm wondering if we could track him and see if there is any descendents in that line ??
Annie :)
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Annie, please change 1901 "Ormskirk" to "Orrell and Ford" so as not to confuse.
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Thanks Girlfriend !
As it said Orrell and Ford and Litherland and Ormskirk ......... I got confused !! ::) ::) ::)
Annie :)
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No problem. Do a search at www.streetmap.co.uk and choose the one in L9, I suppose technically it must be on the border of Aintree and Litherland.
Well I've checked down the CWGC site and don't see him on there so presumably he was another survivor, although with a name like Richards he's not going to be an easy one.
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As I don't know that area .... here's pictures that maybe of interest !!
http://litherland.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/index.html
http://www.litherlandtown.co.uk/
Annie :)
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No it's not going to be straightforward to follow him through Annie, the only marriage I see for John E Richards in the right place isn't until 1929 to an Eva Rosney, West Derby Register Office or Registrar attended so it could have been an RC marriage, but there could easily be others and not knowing which year. Wish they had a more unique surname like the Creases and Dobells.
Mary
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Wouldn't you know it Mary .... nothing is easy with our Robert William !! ;) ;)
but I found this and I think I'll ask the Liverpool Regiment guys on the Forum if they can find anything for us !!
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/history/citysoldiers/research/furtherinfo.asp
RICHARDS
JE
JOHN
SERGEANT
241281
Annie :)
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I have Charles on the CWGC site ........
Charles Walter Richards 2nd Lieutenant The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 1st/8th Bn. Age 20
Date of Death: 27/09/1916 Pier and Face 1 D 8 B and 8 C. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Son of Mrs. Richards, of 20, Victoria Drive, Orrell Park, Liverpool, and the late R. W. Richards.
So it would seem that the family moved just around the corner between 1901 and 1916.
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Norah Richards married David Breingan West Derby 8b 693 March qtr 1925 Walton, Trinity URC, Orrell & Rice Lanes
now that's a more unusual name for you to try.
David Wylie Breingau born Sept qtr 1894 West Derby 8b 397
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Mother Margaret Breingan 35 noted as Wife, born Scotland, with children Samuel 13, David 6, Evelyn 3 all born Liverpool and a servant Agnes Newton 45 born Scotland living in 28 Dumbarton Street, Walton in 1901.
RG13/3455; Folio: 42; Page: 17
Yes this might be more sensible to follow.
-
I found a birth for Jessie Richards Oct /Nov /Dec 1899
West Derby 8b 572
:)
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hello all
can I suggest you get in touch with Bob Halliday
hallidayb@merseymail tell him what you want to know and ask if he can help he is the local historian and does a lot of work at Anfield Cem
Doreen
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Hi Doreen ! how are you today ?
I just sent an email to Bob Halliday at the address you gave .... but it came back ! :-[ :-[ :-[
should it have .com after it ?
Annie :)
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hello Annie
I am fine ,yes sorry , it should be .com, I left the message and went to have a look at my oven and have only just realised I had not finished the email address ,(a senior moment I think it is called ) have followed the story with great interest its brilliant who would have thought it would take off the way it has
Doreen
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Hi Doreen !
No ! - that's not it either .... that came back too !! ..... maybe he's changed his email address !! :-[ :-[ :-[
If by any chance you come across it ... can you send me a PM and let's see what we can do ??!!
This is a real adventure isn't it Doreen ? .... who'd have thought huh ?? ............ !! ;) ;) ;)
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Annie
I am on the phone to him now
is is going to help if he can
speak at bit later
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Doreen,
Do you have anything in your trade directories for Breingan? specifically David and where? bearing in mind that we'd be looking for children born after 1925.
Mary
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Mary
wiill have a look talking to Bob Halliday
Doreen
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I sent you a PM Doreen ! :)
Annie
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I can't believe how many couples we've come across in this search who have had no offspring. Just searched the Breingans between 1925 and 1935 and no children to them!!!
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hello Annie and Mary
well it looks like good news Bob is going to have a look and see what he can find for us I have sent on to him from page 1 to page 27 of our story so that should keep him busy for hours . he is a good bloke so will help if he can
Doreen
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ooooooohh Mary !
there is a Breingan family in Ontario Karen M just found them !!
Peter is the father born in Scotland in 1853, his parents are Alex and Margaret.
Here is Peter Jr.'s WWI papers
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc001/263633a.gif
Sorry have no idea if this relates ........... but worth a shot !!
Annie :) :)
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Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
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Mary
1955 kellys
there is a R.Breignan
30 Devonfield Rd
Orrell Park Liverpool 9
this address is a few streets from Albert Drive
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Thanks Doreen, that certainly looks interesting being in the right district, however I have not a clue who the R might be. Now up to 1939 and no sign of children.
Annie, don't get carried away, it's only DAVID who married a Richards, not the whole of his family, if we start following up his siblings we'll be in the same boat as we were with the Dobells, and that's getting too far away from the main line.
-
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Just a thought Mary .... just a thought !! ;)
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There are 3 Breingans listed in Historical Electoral Rolls on 192.com but none on the current one, or giving phone numbers. Seems to be another name that has died out.
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This is getting frustrating.
Well the Cemetries people should phone me back within 48 hours, that's of this afternoon. I just want SOME result out of this search, even if it's only a photograph of a headstone.
-
Oh! look what I've found
ROBERT ALASTAIR WYLIE BREINGAN - remember what I said about David's name having Wylie in the middle !!
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Australian Army Ordnance Corps
Age: 20
Date of Death: 30/11/1946
Service No: NX193399
Additional information: Son of David Wylie Breingan, and Norah Breingan, of Sungei Patani, Kedah, Federated Malay States.
Grave/Memorial Reference: C.C.2.
Cemetery: Atherton War Cemetery - this is in Queensland, Australia
Well I'm sorry for Robert, but at least it explains why they didn't have any children in the indexes.
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Frustrating is the word Mary I haven't turned up anything new in days due to work and feel we are running in circles to find any family. Its sad that the lines just stop ..most with no children.
I know we all feel strongly about getting the right result for Michel after all the care his has given this small token.
So I guess it's back to waiting and another bash at googling the new name.
Best wishes to all
Tazzie
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Here's some snippets from Trish in Australia !!
Service Record
Name BREINGAN, ROBERT ALASTAIR WYLIE
Service Australian Army
Service Number NX193399 (N467772)
Date of Birth 21 Feb 1926
Place of Birth JESSELTON, NTH BORNEO
Date of Enlistment 5 Jul 1944
Locality on Enlistment ROSE BAY, NSW
Place of Enlistment BRISBANE, QLD
Next of Kin BREINGAN, DAVID
Date of Death 30 Nov 1946
Rank Private
Posting on Death 7 Advance Ammunition Depot
WW2 Honours and Gallantry None for display
Prisoner of War No
Roll of Honour Unknown
John Breingan married Edith Emily Dearden Coles 18 Feb 1914 1914/002783
Wylie is a fairly common surname (and given name) in Oz
There are 4 folks with the surname Breingan (including an Alistair) who served in the forces. You can check them here
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/name.asp#searchtabs
If you search the surname at the national archives, there is a John Breingan who was born Scotland - serving in WWI.
Annie :)
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So far as the Breingans are concerned, we need to stay focussed on the direct line from David and Norah, and the CWGC site did indeed confirm that Robert Alastair Wylie was their son so we had that right. We don't want to find that once again we are again into the realms of in-laws.
From the details of Robert's next of kin being noted as "David" I would assume that this would be his father, could that mean that he didn't marry and so again no children?
I've had an answer from the Curator of the Liverpool Museum who advises that there is a database of Kings Regiment soldiers that a volunteer has been compiling for the last 10 years. Our information corresponds with that which has been extracted from the Officer's Records at the National Archives.
He will wait until we hear what results we get from the article in the Liverpool Echo before progressing matters any further, and then if Michel decides that he wants to make a formal offer of the wrist-tag to the Museum then he can do so.
For more information on the MGC, take a look at http://www.machineguncorps.co.uk/history.html
It may well be worth contacting the Imperial War Museum and the National Army Museum for more information about the MGC.
So see what you can do about the Echo then Annie before we take this any further.
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Hi Mary !
The information that we had at the start of this thread about Robert William's service - came from his own service records file from the National Archives .... one of the lucky ones that wasn't destroyed in the Blitz !!
Michel has the file .... and that's what he's been trying to take his leads from ..... different people see different things !! ............ and he wanted to find another angle ! ...... and boy ! have we found different angles !! :)
He's also been in contact with the Machine Gun Corp .......... I said at the beginning that my goal was to try and find "family" ..... all the service side had been addressed ......
I think a bit of respite will be good for us .... I know for myself ... I've been so wrapped up in this .... I can't see wood for trees .... and I'm thinking too hard ........ ( is that possible ?? ........... :) )
I will keep on top of the Echo ........... but of course if anybody has any good ideas at all please post ....
Like everybody who's been involved with this thread ..... it really would be LOVELY to have a positive conclusion !!
Annie :) :)
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Annie et Mary, bonjour
merci de continuer à vous investir au sujet de Robert William STEAD.
S'il vous plaît, ne vous occupez plus du musée de LIVERPOOL, ces gens ne me semblent visiblement pas très intéressés, nous n'allons tout de même pas pleurer pour qu'ils veuillent bien accepter, dans leur grande bienveillance, une petite médaille ne faisant même pas partie de l'équipement réglementaire, petite trace d'un petit sous-lieutenant de la grande armée britannique qui n'est même pas mort au combat et qui, de plus est, a choisi d'opter pour un corps d'armée aujourd'hui disparu ! Je m'en serais douté, il y a deux sortes d'Histoire !
Annie, vous avez totalement raison, je n'ai pas attendu Monsieur le Conservateur pour me renseigner sur STEAD auprès des NA, pour obtenir une copie de son dossier militaire, nous n'avons rien supposé, rien inventé, tout est strictement exact et prouvé.
Monsieur le Conservateur, qui, dit-il, a eu un regard rapide sur votre fil, a certainement beaucoup de choses plus importantes à traiter au sujet de la vrai Histoire de la première guerre mondiale, qui, il faut bien le dire, pour une très grande partie, s'est déroulée dans mon pays qui en porte encore aujourd'hui, très présents et très visibles, les horribles stigmates.
pour vous convaincre de mon intérêt personnel pour tout ce qui touche, de près ou de loin, aux épisodes de la grande ou la petite Histoire de la première mondiale qui se sont déroulés presque dans mon jardin, je vous prie de bien vouloir avoir un petit regard sur ce lien :
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36423
Michel
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Like everybody who's been involved with this thread ..... it really would be LOVELY to have a positive conclusion !!
Too right!!
Tidying up a couple of loose ends, I've updated the website again.
No longer required
I've also had a telephone call from the Archivist at St Stephens who doesn't appear to have heard of "The Cot" on Grange Lane, perhaps the name has changed since then. He also made a suggestion of Childwall Abbey for the grave.
He's taken a note of the details and dates when our Robert would have lived in Gateacre and will get back in touch with me if he is able to tell us anything, also he'll pass on the information to somebody else who may be able to help.
Mary
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I HEAR what you're saying Michel about Liverpool ....... !! :-\ :-\ :-\
And the picture thread has been a favourite ... I keep going back to it !! :)
Mary .... I tried Childwall Abbey and St Peters Woolton ! ..... But he really could be anywhere ... I know with my own Dad ... he died in Gateacre and was cremated with ashes spread in Widnes !! .................. ::)
Thank you so much for the web site - it's very informative and helpful to get my "head around "..... you know me - I keep losing the plot !! ::) ::) :P
Now we just have to "hurry up and wait " !! ( that's SO hard for me to do ..... ) and hope for the best !!
Annie :)
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Yes Michel, I too hear what you are saying, however, I think there might be an interest but they are being sensible in waiting until all avenues have been tried before he makes the enquiries with his committee rather than them reaching a decision and then having to regress because somebody has been found.
I sincerely hope that after all of this we can find a satisfactory conclusion to our search, after reading about all the help you have given on the other site, you certainly deserve a good result.
Mary
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I'm going offline shortly for a while but before I go..I would like to thankyou all again for the overwhelming feeling you have given me for your generosity..kindness..time and steadfastness you have all shown...it is by far the most moving thread I have ever read on this forum :)
michel51..your kindness...humanity and devotion as inspired me..I hope and pray that the "treasure"you found will someday reach its rightful place..I have a feeling it WILL....good luck.
And last but not least...Liverpool Annie..I remember well when I joked about you being my mentor..now you truly are...your dedication..research and again you devotion is an inspiration..my sincere thanks for that.
Good luck..good health and God bless you all.
Derek.
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My Mum went to school at St Margaret's Anfield .... ( I wonder if she knew our Robert ? :) )
I don't know if things have changed ..... but when I was trying to get records a few years ago they didn't have any .... except teacher records .... but I'm wondering if there would be any pupil records for other schools in the area ? ...... ( of course I realise he mightn't have gone to school there ....... it was just a thought ! )
Does anybody know ??
Annie :)
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hello Annie
st margarets building is still there it changed to a nursing home some years ago I worked there for 2 years, but I think it has changed again now , will have a look next time I go past
Doreen
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I told Brian I hoped I wasn't impatient ................. ::) ::) ::) ::) this was the reply !!
Impatient never!
Hi Annie,
I passed all your information on to Dawn Collinson our deputy features editor for the Liverpool Echo and I am assured it will be appearing as soon as soon as they have space.
Sorry for the delay.
best wishes
Brian.
Brian Johnston
Editorial Library Supervisor
Trinity Mirror NW2
PO Box 48
Old Hall Street
Liverpool L69 3EB
................. we're getting there ! :D :D :D
Annie :)
-
YIPPEEEEEEE
Doreen
-
wow,
what a good new !!!!
Michel
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What an apt title to this thread Annie ... It's been a real journey this has and no matter what the outcome I know you have touched the hearts of many with your wonderful efforts to trace an heir to Michels find all those years ago. It gives me inspiration to keep on with my research despite the brick walls that we all encounter .
The dogged way in which you have been so determined to find information that would lead to a living relative of our Robert ( yes he does feel like he belongs to us doesn't he ?)in a way epitomises the spirit that bound these brave souls together during that terrible time . Well done to all of you ! You are all an absolute credit and inspiration to us all.... Awesome :-*
Poll
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What an apt title to this thread Annie ... It's been a real journey this has and no matter what the outcome I know you have touched the hearts of many with your wonderful efforts to trace an heir to Michels find all those years ago. It gives me inspiration to keep on with my research despite the brick walls that we all encounter .
The dogged way in which you have been so determined to find information that would lead to a living relative of our Robert ( yes he does feel like he belongs to us doesn't he ?)in a way epitomises the spirit that bound these brave souls together during that terrible time . Well done to all of you ! You are all an absolute credit and inspiration to us all.... Awesome :-*
Poll
Annie -
I have been following this thread since the beginning and have waited until now to post my comments. I am in awe of you and all the other Rootschatters (too numerous to mention here) that have pursued an heir to Michels find so many years ago.
You and the other Rootschatters have inspired me to continue to research my family and not to give up.
Thanks for starting this thread and I sincerely hope for a good result.
yn9man
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Annie got me hooked at page 5..what seems like ages ago now.
I am now hoping we get the right result for Michel as he has looked after it so well .
Roll on Monday we may get news from the Echo...Annie...is it downloadable so we can all grab a peek?
Tazzie
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Annie got me hooked at page 5..what seems like ages ago now.
I am now hoping we get the right result for Michel as he has looked after it so well .
Roll on Monday we may get news from the Echo...Annie...is it downloadable so we can all grab a peek?
Tazzie
Seems like ages but in reality just over two weeks. It still amazes me as to what fellow rootschatters can do. Imagine and look at all the research that has gone on.
yn9man
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I keep popping in this thread to see what is going on
I too think the rootchatters that have helped you Annie have done well
Even going to look to see if the houses are still around
Good Luck
from Elizabeth
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The Machine Gun Corps
No military pomp attended its birth or decease. It was not a famous regiment with glamour and whatnot, but a great fighting corps, born for war only and not for parades. From the moment of its formation it was kicking. like old soldiers it simply faded away in 1922
A total of 170,500 officers and men served in the MGC, of which 62,049 became casualties.
Well done ladies, i even stopped watching the football over the weekend to read these threads ........... for a while anyway!
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I nipped to Liverpool records office to do some research and looked up some details (or not as it turned out) for liverpoolannie
Well I tried...
They hauled upteem books out of the archives for me and me and my dusty fingers searched them but I couldn't find him. I checked the following
Liverpool Collegiate School admission registers 1904-1938
Liverpool High School
Liverpool Commercial School 1905-1918
Liverpool Commercial Achool 1904-1909
Liverpool Commercial School 1906-1910
Liverpool Commercial School Middle School 1902-1906
Commercial School Vol C V (as in roman5) 1904-1907
all of the above were listed under Liverpool Collegiate.
Where did you get the info from? I wondered if someone had given you info from an index with no dates/ages.
There was one entry for a Robert John Stead at Liverpool Collegiate School but his father was Edwin Jas Stead a storekeeper. He was admitted 11/09/1929 and left 19/12/1933 with a date of birth 1/11/1917.
There was also a John Stead father William Stead a farmer DOB 20/01/14 entered school 18/09/24 and left 18/07/31
Sorry not to have more info.
The marriage certificate was easy to find although again not on microfilm so had to access the original archives. have taken a photo on my daughters camera and once I work out how to post it will do so. But the details are as follows.
Robert William Stead 25 bachelor 66 Arkles Ave Liverpool father William Stead (dec'd) master mariner
Elizabeth Neil Grant 26 spinster 47 Victoria Rd Tuebrook father James Grant schoolmaster
Witnesses Percy Alex Bingham and Nora Evelyn Tompkins
Date of marriage 1st Dec 1921 at St Simons and St Judes
Don't know if any of this info is any help though :'(
Donna
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Thank you very much Donna !
What a big job that turned out to be !! :D :D :D
Hope you got home all in one piece ...... and not too tired !! :)
It will be great to see the marriage certificate ...... always seems to bring you closer - to see the actual document !
Everything and anything - is a wonderful help !! Thanks again !!
Annie :) :)
PS Liverpool Records Office said to look there !!
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/leaflets/schoolrecords.html
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aah I didn't look in any other schools only Liverpool Collegiate School. it took them long enough to get them out as you can only ask for 5 items at a time and they only get archives out every 15mins. They were saying they were very busy today for the time of year and they were shortstaffed as well. It didn't help that I was looking at court indictment records which are in massive boxes and there some rumblings about how many I was requesting ::)
Donna
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Hi Donna, How kind to do all those searches!!!
I was looking at court indictment records which are in massive boxes and there some rumblings about how many I was requesting ::) Donna
Sometimes that really does get on my nerves, go there with a plan, limited time, and there is a certain :-\ and sigh that only the staff can do!!!
I just give 'em my Biggest grin, as I'm sure you did - and we keep on looking 'cos we is on a quest ;)
Good hunting
Wendi :)
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Hello all,
What a deep quietude, I hope that it is only “calms before the storm”
Michel
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Oh Michel ;) I love the way you say things... it describes what we are all feeling at the moment ... a quiet anticipation .... almost too hard to bear !! ;)
Polly
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Arthur Edward Dobell
Birth Date: 7 Oct 1907
Death Registration Month/Year: Nov 1986
Yeovil Somerset vol: 23 page: 1567
I asked if I could find a newspaper obit for Arthur Edward Dobell .... and this was the reply ! :-\
Thank you for your email.
Unfortunately, due to a lack of storage space, we are only able to keep copies of the Western Gazette for about seven years.
However, copies of the newspaper are put onto microfilm and stored at the Yeovil Reference Library, second floor.
I am afraid we do not have the staff available to undertake research projects on behalf of readers, but I am sure, if you contact them directly, you will be able to make an appointment to view the microfilm for November 1986 and get a copy of the obituary you require.
They can be contacted on (01935) 421910.
I am sorry I cannot be of further assistance.
Yours sincerely
Rebecca Byrne
Editorial Assistant
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So ....we need someone in the area to be kind enough to go there... :-\
Do we need to start another thread to look for a volunteer then ???
Poll
I see you have enlisted some help for tracing this obit from the Somerset board originally .... maybe they can help again Annie ... ....?
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Thanks Poll !
I've posted on Somerset board ....... let's see what happens ! :-\
Wish the Echo would hurry up ...... I'm soooooo impatient ! ::)
Annie :)
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Well you and the gang have done so much work on this one ... we all want it to have a happy conclusion ... so fingers crossed .. ;) :)
Poll
PS I 've been reading the echo online evey day ...waiting ... just like hundreds of others probably ! ;D ;D
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I assumed they'd let us know before they did it ..... so I haven't been looking !! ::) ::) ::)
What's the addy Poll please ??
Annie :)
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Here it is ...
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/
Poll :)
I haven't checked this weekend !! ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Just had a longer look ...would this link be of any use do you think ??
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/peoplesarchive/
There's a message board ....?
:-\ Poll
-
Poll !
As I have talked to them all ....... including the Editor ::) ::) ::)
I think I'd better leave it in their capable hands !! and just WAIT !! ..... but that's soooo hard for me to do !! ;D
Annie :)
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Annie!!
There has been a reply to your request on the Lookup Board
In 1926 Kelly's Directory of Liverpool there was a Robert Stead of The Croft, Grange Lane, Gateacre
Wendi :)
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Hi Wendi !
Wonder if that will make a difference to us ... the address is different ! I was thinking "The Cot" was similar to Cottage !! ::) or did you guys know all along - it meant "Croft" ....... maybe I've been away too long !! :P
National Probate Index 1858+
Date of Probate 18 Nov 1926
Document Probate
Name Robert William STEAD
Occupation
Abode The Cot, Grange Lane, Gateacre, Liverpool, LAN, England
Date of Death 7 Oct 1926
Proved by Elizabeth Neil Stead, widow
Where Proved Liverpool, LAN, England
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Did anyone wonder as to why..Elizabeth wife of R.W.Stead had the middle name of Neill...the following may give a pointer..some of this as already been mentioned...probably all..my fingers are too swollen to find out..here goes.
1901 census.
James Grant b 1864 Halifax..NS...Schoolteacher
Margeret b 1870 Liverpool.
Jeannie.G. b 1894 ? (G) =Graham
Elizabeth.b 11.8.1895 ?
James.P. b 1899 (P) = Peterkin.
Catherine.P. b 1872..sister..(P)= Peterkin.
1881 census.
Elizabeth Grant b 1831 Scotland.
Jane b 1857...Liverpool.
Mathew. b 1862..Halifax.
Catherine, b 1872..Liverpool.
1871 census.
George Grant. b 1825 Stoke.Staffs..Joiner.
Elizabeth b 1831 Scotland...( see 1881)
William b 1855 Liverpool.
Jane. b 1857 ???
Mathew.b 1862 Halifax.
James.b 1864.Halifax.
George Grant married Elizabeth Begg Neill..Dec qtr 1852..Liverpool.
1851 census.
Mathew Neill.. b 1800 Scotland..Sailmaker
Catherine b 1802 Scotland.
George.b 1827 Scotland...Joiner..Cabinet Maker.
Catherine b 1829 Scotland.
Elizabeth b 1831 Scotland.....!!!!!!!!!????
Patrick McFarlane Neill b 1833 Scotland.
Mary Ann. b 1835 Liverpool.
Jean. b 1843 Liverpool.
Christina. b 1845 Liverpool.
1841 census.
Catherine Neill. b 1802 Scotland.
Catherine.b 1826 ???
Elizabeth.b 1831.???1829!!!!! Scotland.???
Mary.b 1836..???
Elizabeth Neill b 11.8.1829..Old Parish Church..Glasgow(I think) Renfrew..daughter of Mathew Neill and Catherine nee Peterkin.
Mathew Neill b 17.4.1799..Port Glasgow.Renfrew..son of Mathew Neill and Catherine nee Brown.
Derek. ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Hi everyone, I've been away for a while.
Just been looking in the old telephone directories - this confirms the address as "The Cot":
1926: Gateacre 64 RW Stead The Cot Grange Lane
I don't see anything for Elizabeth in the later years
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retiringtype - Warhoo!!!!
I am indebted to you - I held out 'cos I didn't think that Annie's first instincts were wrong - PROOF at last !
Thank you
Do you know, geographically where "The Cott" was?
Thanks a million
Wendi :)
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Hi Wendi, I'm a long way from home and don't have access to my 1938 Kellys but I recall that "The Cot" is listed there (I mentioned it in an earlier post). Maybe we could deduce its location from its place in Kellys listings for Grange Lane. I can check this when I get home (middle of next week) if still not resolved.
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Checking modern listings on the OS "Old Maps" site, there is "The Cottage" in Grange Lane at L25 5JX - which per Streetmap appears to be close to the junction of Grange Lane and Gateacre Brow - could this be "The Cot" I wonder?
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Retiringtype...if you look on the Lookup board the request from Kellys directory as already been answered...and just out of interest the estate of R.W.Stead amounted to 1306 hundred and six pounds.
Derek.
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Derek, both the probate record and the 1926 telephone book have Robert Stead at The Cot. I know there was a habitation called "The Cot" because I found it in 1938 Kellys. The reference in your post (re 1925/6 Kellys on the Lancs Look-Up board) to "The Croft" is a bit of a puzzle. Perhaps they moved to The Cot after being at The Croft.
NB I know about the value of the estate !
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Well..retiringtype..a puzzle maybe..but the info and address was straight out Kellys for the year 1926..I answered the thread with what I read from Kellys..full stop.
Derek.
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Perhaps you are also aware that COT is sometimes an affectionate spelling for "Cottage...take care.
Derek.
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Derek, Indeed - hence my earlier post. If you have the opportunity could you take another look at 1925/6 Kellys ? It would be interesting to know whether there is an entry for "The Cot" listed in addition to "The Croft", and whether there is also an entry for "The Cottage".
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Ok..no problem..anytime..won't be till next week though..that info came from Birmingham central library...but I also know someone off another board who as the Kelly's disc...see how much time I have...take care.
Derek.
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Sorry..should have thought...just looked in my saved email..the person who sent me the 1926 info...mentions..."The Croft"..but it could also be "The Cot"..he said the print was badly faded but the address..Grange Lane was clear...must admit.. the directory in the library was faded too..take care.
Derek.
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Per my 1938 Kelly's, The Cot was on the north side of Grange Lane. Here is the order in which the various named properties appear:
Grange Lane Right Side
(Belle Vale Road)
Thornside Dairy
Gateacre House
Grange Lodge
Grange Farm
(footpath to Huyton and Roby)
Grinton
Clapham
Threeways
Inglenook
Chartley Croft
Cremona
Placet
The Cot
Dalegarth
Rough Grange
Elmsfield
Cockshead Farm
Gorsey Cop
Gorsey Cop Farm
(Childwall Lane)
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Have you plans to write a book at the end of all this - or at least an article for a magazine or newspaper?
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Maybe do a write up for an article in the Lancashire Family History Society Journal?
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Hi Kaos and Wocky
thank you very much for your message and excuse me please for my late answer, I am particularly occupied these times.
I yet precisely do not know what Iwilldo at the end of all this, in fact especially, I think, the time I will do will miss more.
A thing is however certain, it is that I will try to leave a trace of the formidable dash of solidarity from which I profited, in my search of passed of Robert (with the incredible starting impulse of my very dear Annie friend whom I will never thank enough).
Friendly
Michel
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WOW! I've just spent..... way too long.... reading through this thread, and reaching the end I'm left wondering, what happened next?
Did the Echo ever feature the story? Did the tag reach Robert's (well extended) family in the end? Is it still with Michel or now in one of our museums with the story you have all contributed to?
Please, somebody, tell me there is a happy ending to this beautiful tale?
Thanks!
Lynne
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Funny I was just thinking of this thread the other day
How did it all come out
Elizabeth
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It certainly feels like there is unfinished business here ... ??? ??? :-\ :(
Poll
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I also came back to this thread.
I think Annie was still waiting for the paper but none of us knows if the article was printed.
To have got so far to see this to the end would be brilliant.
Tazzie
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I've wondered if anything ever came of this too :)
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Sadly haven't seen much of Annie, not sure if she is still "doing" roots.
I am sure you are all aware of her sons passing! It would be great if an ending that was satisfactory to Michel could be found!
Annie and crew worked so hard on this it would be wonderful to have a result
regards
tisgrannie
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Has anyone got an update on this subject yet? I have just read the whole story. It would be great to hear of a happy ending. Maybe Michael can up date us? I can't believe the amount of work that has gone into this. I have an old family bible that was left to my father, it would be great to reunite it with the family. It was to do with the slave trade. I would not know where to begin, I was even having thoughts of giving it to the William Brown library. it is only sitting in the bottom of my wardrobe in a carrier bag. Please someone update us on this wonderful tale. Take care all, Lynn
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Hi scouse mouse , There is an old Bible section on here. Link to that someone may help.
regards
tisgrannie
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I don't know if I'm allowed to bring this subject back to the surface, but it was just so fascinating I wondered what the final result was.
Has anything else been found out, I'd love to know.
Barbara
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Hopefully you giving the subject a nudge may arouse some interest again. Thanks, it was a fascinating journey we followed. Hopefully we could get a successfull finish for all concerned.
regards
tisgrannie
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its just taken me 1 1/2 hrs to read this thread,and i found the dedication of so many fascinating..a big pat on the back to you all..but surely its not been shelved has it??..seems a long time since all those concerned posted....regards...allan
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Sorry you guys to have been so lax with this .... I haven't had any notifications :P
Plus I have to admit - it was on the back burner for a while !! :-\
OK there is no update I'm afraid ..... we just can't seem to get over the hump !! Everywhere we go ... there's a dead end !!
The very first line of the first post I said this .... and it's still true !! ::)
Most people know how I go gaga over WW1 soldiers .......... but this soldier is an enigma ........
I'd love to be able to give this a happy ending for Michel .... I know it's very dear to his heart ..... but I'm all out of creative ideas .... the Echo never did do anything to my knowledge ..... and we kept running out of family to research .... I just wish that "some little clue " would turn up that could make us off and running again !!
I know people have been reading it .... but if you guys have any bright ideas .... "lay 'em out " as sometimes it just takes one thing - to spark everybody off !!
Annie :)
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Oh Annie :'(.......its been blood and sweat (ok and a few tears) over this and I would just love to see the finish I think it deserves.
The echo have lost out on this as I feel we could have made some ground.
I really dont know where to try as we seem to have covered every possible line.
Did we try local radio? So many pages I cannot remember.
Do any of the names appear on Friends re-united? Possible younger family members ...ok maybe clutching at straws but !
Tazzie
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I keep looking at this and thinking we just have to keep trying.... Annie did the ECHO ever publish an article ? ...I looked online for weeks and never saw anything .. what about writing to Liverpool Football club to publish a letter in their programme ...knowing how proud a people they are they may be prepared to give us a bit of publicity to find the rellies of one of their own !! Just a thought !! :-\ ??? ???
Poll :-\
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Can they do that Poll ? put it in the program I mean !
Good to see you by the way !! you too Tazz ! :)
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Hi Annie....
What about local TV ie BBC local. Would they cover a special issue like this. I know our Look East cover out of the ordinary things and one off's. Tonight was a lady who every time she switches on her kettle the street light goes off. Ye Gods this is more entertaining than that surely...if not 'll eat my hat...I bet they'd cover that as well ;D ;D
Will rack my brain and see what falls out with new ideas.
Back soon all.
Tazzie
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Can they do that Poll ? put it in the program I mean !
Good to see you by the way !! you too Tazz ! :)
Dunno Annie ..... bit theres only one way to find out !! :o :o :o We should maybe start a thread with a title
Liverpool People we need your help
( linked to this one maybe with a summary so people dont have to read all of it (not everyone has retired like me !! ) Liverpool fans are the best in the world as far as passion for their own go so if there are any ardent fans on RC maybe they can suggest something ....worth a try dont you think? :-\ ;)
Poll :-*
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I followed the thread and thought that after so much effort there should be some answers. Lately, I E Mailed the Echo and they stated that the story had never been published and was told that the request should come from the person who wanted to pass on the wrist tag.
Why was this not stated long ago?
Any local TV is a good bet
Gatacre
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Just read this through!!! Ha s anyone tried Billy Butler on Radio Merseyside? My mum tells me he loves things like this....
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Gatacre - at least you got a reply then.
I tried months ago by phone and e mail and did not get anywhere. At least we now have the reason why nothing was published even if it is a pretty weak one!
Jude
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Well they just ignored me after my first couple of contacts ... I was passed to the person who dealt with that section and she never replied !! ::) ::) ::)
Anyways the Echo is a non starter now I think ! .... we'll just try other avenues !! :)
Who's Billy Butler ? .... does anybody know where or how we can get in touch with him ?
Thanks for keeping tabs on this thread .... lovely to see you all again !! ;D
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Hi Annie,
Who's Billy Butler ? .... does anybody know where or how we can get in touch with him ?
Billy hosts a radio show on Radio Merseyside every weekday afternoon from 2pm, and every Saturday from 9.30am-12pm.
he can be contacted via the links below
www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/
Purlin
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Well here might be another way in, but I still can't see a "contact me" button....???
http://www.rootschat.com/links/020j/
Wendi :)
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Hi Wendi !
freddiebean sent me an email address .... I think I'll try there ... unless somebody else can make a phone call maybe !!
We should do it on a Wednesday when Raymond the Astrologer is there !! to guide us through the numbers game of life with his amazing mathematical insights into metaphysical matters !! ;D ;D
Annie :)
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Great .....Looks like maybe we have kickstarted this one back into action ... ;) ;)
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Hi Poll !
We need some ideas to get us going again .... I'll try anything once ... I'd love to bring this thread to a happy conclusion .... !!
Annie :)
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OK ! Fingers crossed ..... I did it !! :) ...... I sent an email to Billy Butler !!
Oh please let it work this time !! :-\ .............. !!
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Hello Annie,
I too hope to see a happy ending here would'nt be great
Elizabeth
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Hi Annie, I am sure there is a great sigh of relief from all the people who get notice of new posts on this topic. (From all around the world) Well done for getting it back off the ground. You deserve a wonderful end to this topic both you and Michel! Not forgetting all the many people who have contributed to the massive task. My prayers and good wishes are with you to see the end result.
tisgrannie
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Go for it Annie. I hope BB is the star my mum thinks he is!!
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Well done Annie ...I think someone just may take more notice of an email sent from outside the uk .. I t would make me curious anyway ;D ;D I f you dont get a reply / acknowledgement ... we'll inundate him with requests !! ;D ;D ;D
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You know what Poll ? ... I would be so satisfied just to find his grave !! ....
I can't understand why we can't find that ?? :-\
Annie
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I tried to refresh my memory on this thread and found that there are a number of messages missing. Messages posted by Retiringtype for instances are referred to but are not there, also I think maybe some by "Julia".
Can anybody tell me why would this be please since there is a definite loss of continuity? Maybe a moderator could give an explanation.
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The reason why you can't find posts by "Retiringtype" is that a while back I decided to be a bit less retiring and I changed my user name . The posts should still be visible but will now appear to be from "ShaunJ".
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I noticed that earlier this morning also. Was that on another topic or a different area of conversation on site?
In fact on reading it I have sent it to a family friend who is a Stead by marriage but they are from Yorkshire. They have done their family tree so will be able to check it. They will get back I am sure.
Hopefully BB will take it somewhere. Get the listeners in Liverpool talking.
regards
tisgrannie
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Thank you for clearing that up.
I wondered whether there was a family grave rather than a new one in 1926 - maybe Anfield or somewhere near where his parents used to live.
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Has someone checked the persons name and date of death ( Do you have them? I can't remember.) with all the Cemetery Offices in the area. I have to ring my local office on occassion as I do War Graves and that shows the amount of names sometimes that you find in one grave. You may be looking at Smith and then also on the headstone there could be up to any amount of names. I have found my local office extremely helpful. Plus I took some American Friends to the Grandparents graves in Newcastle. I actually via mobile phone was guided to the unnumbered grave it didn't have a headstone either. People are fantastically helpful at times. Regardless whose grave he is in if the dates are there they can look it up for you and ring you back. They may even suggest if you have the info someone may go in and look through the books they have for each Cemetery,
Its just a thought,
tisgrannie
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Unfortunately I know from previous experience that the look up service for a burial in Liverpool Cemeteries costs £10 per cemetery per year.
-
Just so you know ... I've been through every single tombstone named on this site .... twice !!
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/Merseysidegraveyards.html
The list on this site is tremendous ...... and if you really look into the site - very involved !! lots and lots of hours by a lot of people at the Liverpool Records Office - walking graveyards this summer has been a pastime of a few people also !! :) even over the water and outlying areas !! - many people and hours have gone into trying to find this soldier ....
We were never able to find his Mum and Dad's grave either !
Annie :)
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Group photos of soldiers in many regiments were taken during WW1. I wonder if the photographic department of the Imperial War Museum would be able to trace any photographs of the soldier's regiment. I have forgotten if the regiment was known. Some photos have captions naming both the officers and men.
Perhaps there is a slim chance that the officers names on photographs are indexed or is this wishful thinking?
Gatacre
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I'm sorry to say - it's wishful thinking Gateacre !! :)
The MGC Assoc have been looking - The Liverpool Kings Regiment have been looking and WW1 experts have been looking ... so far all the details we have - are on the thread .... it's really weird that the family fell off the radar ! .... with his Dad's middle name being "Harley " .... unusual for Liverpool ...... ::) you'd think he would be easy to find !!
Annie :)
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Silly question did they have cremations then?
tisgrannie
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Hi Tis !
Not silly ..... yes they did ! .....
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/liverpoolcrematorium.html
Annie :)
Edit ....... Thought I'd tell you I started a thread in Common Room - a little easier maybe ??!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=260482.new#new
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Hello All,
Many - many - messages ago reference was made to an 'event' in Bucklow (Registration District) in Cheshire. Was this a line that it was deciided not to follow up?
I've just read the whole thread and it's taken a long time. It is amazing what you started Annie on behalf of Michel. It is also amazing how everyone has chipped in and how it has stirred everyone's imagination and emotion, Well done everybody.
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver !
I think we kind of let it go because we were going around in circles ... why ? do you see something there by any chance ?
Annie :)
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Annie.......
Going over it all again and again but nothing any clearer. It did however google Robert Stead Liverpool ....and ....some one on curious fox is looking for details on his grandfather William Stead of Liverpool but no dates are given....clutching at even tiny straws now... ???
Tazzie
I agree we all email if you do not get a response prehaps someone will get the message..
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Hi all
I'm sure I remembered a reference to Bucklow - but cannot remember where I saw it. It wasn't referred to again. As I live in 'Bucklow' I just thought there was maybe something I could pick up on.
Reiver
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I've found the reference to Bucklow.
Mary A noted that Elizabeth N Stead had married Frank Hurst in Bucklow im Sep Q 1940. Am I right in that this was Robert's sister? It would appear that she moved to Liverpool and she died there aged 94? Am I completely off the track? No children have been found for Frank Hurst and herself. Perhaps not surprisingly as she was 45 when she married.
Have I got the right picture?
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver
Elizabeth N Stead was Robert's widow
Everybody was trying to find more extended family and we kept getting dead ends !!
Thank you so much for that though .... if you happen to find something out about that family we'd love to hear it !
Annie :)
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The fact we know the quarter and year does that narrow it down in any way. As regards looking it up? Surely between the genius' found on here it should be a doddle!!! If he was cremated would there be a record?
Not a grave record particularly.
regards
tisgrannie
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Per the Probate record, Robert died 7 October 1926. Has anyone checked the local press for the following few days for a death announcement and/or funeral notice?
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Anfield crematorium opened in 1896. I've sent them an email asking if he was cremated as we know his name and date of death. Will let you know the outcome.
Dawn
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Have just had a phone call from Chris in the Cemeteries and Crematoria dept of the council. (that was quick and no charge for the look-up)
Robert wasn't cremated or buried at Anfield, nor buried at Everton, Toxteth or Allerton.
The records for Kirkdale and West Derby cemeteries are at Central Library, I'll give them a call.
If he's not there Chris suggested a longshot of Yewtree but that's a Catholic cemetery.
(Springwood Crematorium didn't open till 1970 so that's out of the equation)
I'll keep you informed.
Dawn
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Wow Dawn....that was a quck response well done.
Annie I know we tried the Echo but what about the Post they are on line?
Tazzie
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Could I suggest the Bolton Evening News as they do a regular "Looking Back" article, they might just be interested.
Barbara
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Hey you guys, your cooking!!! Good for you. I do think you are on the right track. Elimination is good. Narrows it down considerably. Now to think laterally we know where his death was registered has to be the place he died. Did he live there? Do we have have him on the electoral rolls in 1926.
That would change the Cemetery possbly, he was C of E, is he in a Church yard Cemetery?
tisgrannie
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Robert was living in Gateacre when he died ....where would be the most likely cemetery?
He and Elizabeth were married at St. Simon & St. Jude Anfield so presumably they were C of E.
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Well Mary A used a tank of gas driving all over Gateacre and Woolton .... ::)
He's not at St Stephens Church ... He's not at Childwall Abbey .... He's not at Woolton .... or Allerton .... not in Speke ..... not at any of the cemeteries in between !! :-\
Good possibility he was cremated ..... but I've I tried Widnes and Warrington also ! but nada !! :-\
Annie :)
PS .... I went through every cemetery on that list I posted earlier .... checking all the MI's ... twice ... ( in case I missed him ! ) and there's a LOT of names on there ! .... of course he could be in an
unmarked grave ..... but I doubt it !!
PPS .... the original dog tag said C of E ...... !!
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Do you think there could have been a Coroners Report ? :-\
-
Quite possibly there was an inquest but I'm not sure what records would still be in existence. Perhaps someone could check the inquest register and see if he's listed ?
http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-82111.pdf
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I didn't try Runcorn or St Helens ..... :-\
I bet there's a family plot somewhere .... knowing our luck ... it's probably in Wales ... or Ireland !! :)
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Phoned Central Library then sent a request email and received this reply
Thank you for your enquiry.
We will answer your enquiry as soon as possible but please bear in mind that we receive a large number of enquiries in Record Office which we have to answer in order of date receipt.
We answer a first enquiry free of charge if it will take less than fifteen minutes but for any subsequent enquiries we will ask you to use our Research Service. A form is attached to this reply for any enquiries you wish to make in future.
They did say that because of the postal strike they aren't getting any postal enquiries but can't give a reply time.
However if anyone is near to Central Library the registers are on microfilm and on open access and can be searched in person.
Sorry can't help with that bit, I'm in NW London and don't think I can make it there and back between the school runs ;D
If not I'll let you know if I get a reply.
Dawn
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Thanks Dawn ! ..... are you really sure you can't get there ?.... wouldn't take THAT long ?? ;D ;D
Shaun ... if he died in the hospital ... they may have had a post mortem ..... but if he died at home .... probably his own GP signed the death certificate ...... don't you think ?!
Michel .... any chance you can you give us a copy of the death certificate do you think please ? ... I can't remember what it says !!
Annie :)
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I don't know what the rules were in those days Annie - it might depend on whether the death was an obvious consequence of injury or illness for which he'd been receiving treatment, or if it was sudden or suspicious.
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Hello Annie ;), Hello all,
as I said to Annie you few minutes ago, I do like that activity around our Robert, I am delighted of this new departure...
Thank you very much
Here is Robert's death certificate
Michel
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Hello Michel.....
We are still trying...... :)
So it was in the infirmary.....his father in law was named as informant...
Ah! can anyone read cause of death ...as there is a date there for September ..so following an illness! or operation!
Tazzie
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Brain tumour 5 months ... nature unknown ?
Water on the brain because of the tumour ?
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Looks as if he had a couple of operations to relieve the pressure on his brain. poor chap :(
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Exact Transcript:
(1) Cerabral Tumour, 5 Months
Nature Unknown
Operation: Decompression
10th September & 4th Oct 1925
(2) Hydrocephalus due to
the Tumour
P.M.
Certified By:
R.M. AINSWORTH M.B.
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Thanks.....I have got to get my eyes tested...too many lates on here and Parish register reading!
Tazzie 8)
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So Elizabeth's father lived in Blundellsands, and we know that Elizabeth lived in Blundellsands in later life. I wonder if she went back there to live with her father after Robert's death, and whether Robert might be buried in or near Blundellsands/Crosby. Was Thornton Garden of Rest open back then, or is that a little later?
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Crematorium in 1963 in the one on Lydiate Lane
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Bootle cemetery opened in 1913 and it lists an entrance off Lydiate Lane.
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Thinking of Chuch Graveyards from experience I have had to contact the Clergy to find who is buried in them. You could walk around and there not be a headstone.
have heard from Church wardens etc on family tree searches.
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Is this useful? - A list of Liverpool cemeteries
EVERTON CEMETERY, Higher Lane, Fazakerley NOT THERE
ST JAMES'S CEMETERY, Upper Duke Street
ST MARY'S CEMETERY, Walton rd, Kirkdale (Opened 1837, closed for Interments)
LIVERPOOL CEMETERY, Anfield Park NOT THERE
WALTON CEMETERY, (Parish of Liverpool), Rawcliffe road, Rice Lane, Walton
CEMETERY, Smithdown Road, Toxteth Park NOT THERE
LIVERPOOL CATHOLIC CEMETERY AND CONVENT OF THE GOOD SHEPHERD, Ford NOT THERE
JEWS' BURYING GROUND, Deane Road, Kensington and Green Lane, Stoneycroft
KIRKDALE CEMETERY, Longmoor Lane, Walton NOT THERE
WEST DERBY CEMETERY, Lower House lane, West Derby NOT THERE
BIRKENHEAD CEMETERY, Flaybrick Hill, Tollemache Road, Birkenhead
LIVERPOOL CREMATORIUM Anfield NOT THERE
YEW TREE (CATHOLIC) NOT THERE
BOOTLE CEMETERY (SEFTON COUNCIL)
n.b. Charge £22 for a look-up! if nothing else turns up I may turn innocent of that fact and phone them to see if he's there (unless someone else volunteers). They do have a war graves section, don't know if Robert is eligible though
Dawn
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He died too late for a CWGC grave the cut off yr is 1921 I think. I would think he woudnt be in the Catholic or Jewish Cemetery. At my Cemetery office they charge you if they look up but let the public look up them selves. I found that also over in Dukinfield. Its easy knowing the date you just get the book for the year and whip to the month. They only have the Town Cemeteries listed though, Church ones are in the Churches own records. If you went to the liverpool Record Office they would be on micro under Parish Burials!
tisgrannie
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I thought somebody did that for us already :-\ - and they couldn't find anything !!
at the Records Office I mean !! :-\
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So that is the obstacle!
tisgrannie
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have you seen how many hits this topic has had. Amazing!!! Surely somebody knows where this chap is.
tisgrannie
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It would appear that records for
BIRKENHEAD CEMETERY, Flaybrick Hill, Tollemache Road, Birkenhead
are at the Wirral Archives. They charge a £5 search fee if they do the work on our behalf
Can anyone get there to check this out if the other outstanding requests don't turn up anything?
Just can't manage another day-trip ;D
Dawn
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I am more than happy to pay the 5 pounds ... if they take credit cards !! :)
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Annie.....
How about the Liverpool Daily Post maybe able to get it on their online edition.
They are asking for local stories.
Anyone know what their coverage is like?
Tazzie
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Go for it Tazzie ! .... maybe you will have " the touch " !! ;D ;D
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I am more than happy to pay the 5 pounds ... if they take credit cards !! :)
Annie
I know how eager we all are but suggest we wait to see if the Central Library contact me back with any findings at Kirkdale or West Derby.
Dawn
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I know Dawn !! ...... the voice of reason !! ;D
.... it's just that - I'm at the point where I'll do what needs to be done - to get our results !! :)
And I know Michel will too !!
Annie :) :)
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Annie.....take more water with it...
I know how you feel girl ::)
Well have e-mailed the Post ...fingers crossed everyone..
I directed them to the site and told them about our quest all we can do is wait AGAIN!
Tazzie
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I was just laughing to myself .... wouldn't it be funny if the Echo and the Post and Billy Butler
........... all did it at the same time !! :) :) :)
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I did mention the Echo not taking up the story.
Stranger things have happend :o
Tazzie
Back later ...2 small people to go to bed now homework all done!
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I was just laughing to myself .... wouldn't it be funny if the Echo and the Post and Billy Butler
Just the way !
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I think the reason I had a reply from Mary Murtagh , a reporter, on the Echo was because I quoted the thousands of people who were interested in this story from around the world and that it was a real news item. Then I was told that the person who had the tags had to write to them.
Reading the posts it seems that the Bootle cemetery or one of the churchyards in Blundellsands may be the a resting place for Robert Stead
Gatacre
Unfortunately I.too, found that a local cemetery charged £23 for information but it could well be that the local library in Blundellsands or Crosby have cemetery record interments.
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Hi It looks like Michel will have to contact them! Can you get the link to him.
Can someone ask the office that has Blundellsands Records if someone can take a look intstead of being charged with having the date it should take minutes! Do you know the number of the Office there Is Blundellsands a district in Liverpool. I'm over in Oldham I'd be happy to make a call to them. Then post results of conversation on here.
Somone has to give something here. Maybe if BB gets on the case He may be given the info on the location of the Grave!
We can hope I guess.
Its going to come to a positive conclusion I'm sure.
We are just coming to the top of the hill I think!
tisgrannie
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I do not live near to Liverpool but could look to see if the Blundellsands Library has an E Mail address and make an enquiry. I think it would be Annie who would be the most likely person to be the contact with Michel.
Gatacre
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Hi Gateacre I agree about Annie. i'm sure that will be fine with her. I tried looking for Blundellsands and it came up as Sefton? Not sure about that not familiar with that area.
well done so far!
tisgrannie
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The nearest library to Blundellsands is the College Road Carnegie Library http://www.sefton.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=5768
The main library for the area is Crosby Library http://www.sefton.gov.uk/page&5947
Not sure which would be the best starting point for this - probably Crosby
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I have E Mailed the Blundellsands library and asked about churchyard registers and the nearest publiic cemetery and if the records could be found in a library without having to ask the cemetery office. Also, I gave the name, age and date of death of Robert.
I am not familiar with this area except that I had to report to the Blundellsands Hotel when I joined the W.R.N.S in WW11. and was promptly sent to Scotland.
Gatacre
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The Blundellsands Hotel is no more, I'm afraid - it's been redeveloped as a retirement apartment complex
http://www.francisfrith.com/search/england/merseyside/blundellsands/blundellsands.htm
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It was good to see the Hotel again but as we know, it is a mistake to take sentimental journeys. Nothing remains the same.
The thought ot trying to drive thru Manchester these days is horrendous and it would be like a foreign country!! :(
Gatacre
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Good afternoon all
First.
Re: Elizabeth's marraige to Frank W Hurst in 1940 Registered Bucklow. Thought I'd spend an hour in Trafford Library to check Directories for an address around that time. But no success.
Second,
A question. Would it be possible to identify the Funeral Director(s) maybe via the Executors?
Maybe the home where she was always used the same ones? Maybe this has already been tried?
Reiver
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.... it's just that - I'm at the point where I'll do what needs to be done - to get our results !! :)
And I know Michel will too !!
Annie :) :)
Hello Annie ;), hello all,
Oh yes ! I will too....
Michel
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Hi Reiver !
How are you ? :) .... thank you so much for taking the time to go to the library !
I can't remember whether we checked out the funeral directors .... but I'll look and see if I can find if we did .... :)
I need to find a way to summarize this thread ... you all know what a dufuss I am :P ..... but I'll try and work on it - while you guys are all sleeping !! ;D ;D
Annie :)
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It's way past my bedtime, but I have only just found this thread and I have read it through...
May you have all the luck you need. You are a marvelous crowd and once more I am proud to be on this messageboard.
Paula
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I read through it yesterday and know many of the places mentioned in the thread but what happened to the person who lived in Southport did you follow up that lead I could not find out if you had.
I am in Southport myself if you come up with anything I may help with.
I also knew people with the surname Stead who would be in the seventies by now if still around and lived in the Netherton area of Bootle in the 1980s
They had a son who was a journalist and at one time worked for the Bootle Times where he did his training.
Exciting stuff I hope you return the nametag to the family I will follow the rest of the story.
Edna
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Hi Edna !
... glad you enjoyed the thread .... do you remember the name of the person in Southport that you are refering to ??
The summary will be worked on tonight ... but if you can give us a clue ... we can give you a good answer !
Annie :)
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Been absent for 5 days but this looks as if we have a new lease of energy on this thread :o ;D ... One thing about rootschatters .... they just never give up !! ;) Poll
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I think it's called "sticktoitivness" Poll ! ;D ;D
Hope you're better !
Annie :)
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Thanks Annie ...yes loads ..now justgotta get sorted for a meet in Glasgow Travelling 320 miles to it so I 'd better check the map !!! I'm gonna be 4 days without a pc !! Wish I had a laptop too now ... ::)
Good luck though with your summary .... Poll ;)
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Another lurker leaps into the fray..... ;D
Post by: enoch on 18 January 2007, 14:21:49
Nora May Dobell
died aged 88 on 8 Dec 1981 at home 5 St Peters Close Heswall (formerly of
Bramerton Meols Drive West Kirby) widow of George Galloway. Service and
cremation at Landican Crematorium Monday Dec 14 11am.
Flowers to T. A. Ball Funeral Service Woodchurch Birkenhead.
If this is RW's sister, then what about a call to that Funeral director - they may have soemthing on file of the family names and locations - all we need to do is get hold of one person who knows a bit of the family history - doesn't matter how far away from Robert they are.....Robert dying young like he did, it may be a thing that is known to wider family, who may know a cousin that sort of thing........
T A BALL:
http://www.touchchester.com/business/list/bid/2529471
Weekend coming up! Anyone local can make a call ??
Also, I wondered if a Death notice (as opposed to an Obit, which as has been said before here, is unlikely) could be searched for for him in the local paper (the Echo?) - forgret the modern Newspaper themselves - but does any Library have microfilm of old newspapers back to at least 1926? A Death notice may have been placed by the Funeral Director on behalf of the family...and if we can get the name of the Director, we might be able to find out where he was laid to rest.
Just a thought ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
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clematised and ambly. Great thought shaking stuff. Firstly is the journalist still around. Sounds just the thing for them!!
ambly well found!! After reading so much it can get confusing. You've done a great job. Maybe someone close will take this thought on.
regards
tisgrannie
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Elizabeth died in 1990 at Abbermeade, 14, Victoria Road, Waterloo, Liverpool (See page 11). I googled for Funeral Directors in Liverpool L22 and the following three came up:
Barringtons
44 Hougoumont Av, Liverpool - 0151 928 1139
David Clegg
77 Bridge Rd, Litherland, Liverpool - 0151 928 6665
McCallum & Tritton & Sons
46 Mersey View, Brighton-le-Sands, Liverpool - 0151 931 2002
I could try my charm from here in South Manchester but someone who knows the area may have more charm :) Presumably all we would ideally like to know was whether they were the ones who undertook the funeral and if so, where it took place?
Any volunteers? :)
Reiver :)
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Enquiries under way -
David Clegg didn't open until 1993 so not them
Barringtons wasn't open then
One of the biggest - Humphreys don't keep those sort of records.
R S Cape doesn't hold records that far back
McCallum & Tritton & Sons constantly engaged - apparently only one phone line
St Luke's apparently holds the records for every burial in their churchyard and they are supposed to be the biggest in the area. Answerphone, message left.
Thornton Cemetery - out to lunch
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Don't forget Capes
R.S Cape Ltd
18 South Rd,
Waterloo
LIVERPOOL L22 5PQ
Merseyside
0151 9283488
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Thanks Wocky
I only seemed to put out the message out about half an hour ago :)
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Guys....
Fingers all crossed.....nothing back from the Liverpool Post yet.....
Tazzie
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The address in Eshe Road is haunting me.
Could the beneficiary have arranged the funeral and therefore connection questionable?
Quick thought before work !
Mair
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Elizabeth Neil Hurst - date of death 19th January, 1990 - was cremated and her ashes scattered in Thornton's Garden of Remembrance.
So no leads to any family grave there.
Thornton wasn't open in 1926 so no good checking there for Robert William Stead.
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Does anyone know if Mary's gedcom for the Stead family is still viewable ? if so could they please post the URL.
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OK I don't know how much time I have before I have to go out but this is what I have found so far.
The files from the Solicitors in question are held in the Law Society Archives and I have their phone number.
The two partners are still working for other Solicitors in the Liverpool area, one of which I don't particularly want to contact because of the firm he's working for but maybe as a last resort, I'll try the other one first, but wonder whether the archives would be better......
Avidly watching this thread, all my family from that area of Liverpool as you know Mary, please may I know the contents of the will, you will gather that I am only on page 12 so far!
Rabbit B
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Rabbit B, I have a copy of the Will which I can email to you if you send me your email address by PM.
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*UPDATE*
I have received the following back from Central Library :( :( :(
Quote
Hello Dawn
Thank you for your enquiry.
I have searched both Kirkdale and West Derby Cemeteries for the burial of Robert William Stead without success. I also tried Ford and Yew Tree Cemeteries with no luck. It is possible that Robert was buried in a churchyard, but as we have the records of several churches that include burials, this could involve an extensive search. I have attached details of our research service to this message.
I am sorry not to have been able to help with your enquiry.
Janice Utting
Liverpool Record Office.
I'll update the cemetery list (see reply #537)
Dawn
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Further to my earlier posting re Bootle, I've sent an email to Thornton crematorium where the records are kept apparently. I did phone but they finish at 4.30pm and didn't answer the phone.
I'll let everyone know the outcome.
Dawn
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Further to my message on previous page I was refering to the Lulworth Rd Southport address page 4&5 but it isnt clear if this was followed up or not.
I lost touch with the Steads years ago but they may still be in the Bootle area if anyone has a Bootle Liverpool phonebook to look them up I know the names but not sure if allowed to post them on here.
Edna
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I just realised that we have definite proof of Robert's religious persuasion. He was Church of England - it's engraved on the wrist tag that started all this !
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Hi Edna !
Do any of these ring any bells? (click on the link below should bring up a listing of BT's Steads listed with phone numbers)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/021h/
Wendi :)
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Hi Wendy none of those are the ones I knew and they would have been L20 and L30 areas
I have just found this if it may be of help http://www.stead-steedons.co.uk/newsletters.htm
I am just reading through it now.
Edna
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I was browsing those linking to my site and read the request for Robert William STEAD, he married
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1921
STEAD Robert W GRANT Elizabeth N Anfield, St. Simon & St. Jude Liverpool 2003WD/3/88
They are not In the directories I have 1938
Find my past show a
STEAD Robert 44 M 1926 Southampton New Zealand Auckland
STEAD Elizabeth 47 F 1926 Southampton New Zealand Auckland
Regards
Jane
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/
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Hi Jane and welcome to RootsChat :D :D
I don't understand about Find my Past ::) what does that mean - New Zealand ?? Is that immigration ? ( though the age is off !! )
Annie :)
PS Edna ... don't worry about the One name study .... that's where we found his will and nothing else I'm afraid !! :-\
EDIT .... Jane .... I went through all the cemeteries on your site ... terrific site by the way !! ;D
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I found the name of a bob Stead-Steed and have sent him an e mail with the link to the thread and is contactable via the one name study I gave in my above meaasge.
Edna
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Thanks Edna !
Hi Jane and thanks for joining us ;D
Elizabeth Neil Hurst - date of death 19th January, 1990 - was cremated and her ashes scattered in Thornton's Garden of Remembrance.
Hi Wocky !
Were you able to ascertain if they had any info regarding next of kin?
I know they probably would not give you the info, but perhaps they would forward a letter from us to the last known address ???
Wendi :)
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Find my past have passenger lists searchable free but pay to view
His medal card is on the NA but I presume you have his military history, what is his year of birth Annie
Many thanks all for the welcome and the kind words
Jane
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Hi Jane !
Yes ... we have his army records !!
Birth of Robert William Stead June qtr 1896 West Derby 8b 451
and his death Robert William Stead age 30 registered in Liverpool 4Q 1926 8b p73.
This has gone on so long Jane .... but it would be wonderful to find where he was buried or where his ashes are scattered ..... !
Annie
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What a great group of people you all are ;D this topic so facinating . It ought to be on the tele!
Dear Genealogy Fairy!
We want to find where he is buried.
We want to find a relative , his wife's side (even though she remarried), his sisters, aunts, cousins , even his brother in law - anyone! SOMEONE will have a box of photos under a bed SOMEWHERE and in it will be an annonated Photo of cousin R W STEAD , very possibly in his WW1 Uniform. Someone - we hope - who may be guardian of the family photograph album.
Although I have only posted on topic once, I have been following the thread for a long time ;D
I still suggest - if it's possible - for someone look for Robert's death or funeral notice in the paper archives ;D
If the Funeral directors are seeming to not hold records as far back as 1926, then what about the FD who officiated at his wife Elizabeth's (in 1990) and at his sisters (BALL in 1981)?
Thornton's may hold a Book of Rememberance, or similar for Elizabeth. It may be able to be consulted and may reveal the name of someone who can be contacted.
All we need is one living person who knew the family to start a chain reaction! Elizabeth may have remarried, and has died (after living to a grand age) - but that death was relatively recent. It may be easier to find someone conected to her? Even a friend. Someone who can lead us to said box of memories, which surely would include something of her young first husband.
some thoughts ;D
cheers
AMBLY
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Thornton Crematorium does hold a book of rememberance as I used it for my own mother but you need the date of the death and if the family had it recorded in there for Elizabeth and also the local paper for Crosby is The Crosby Herald and I think they belong to the same group as the Liverpool Echo.
Edna
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I have a hunch that cremation was not a popular option in 1926.
If I am wrong I stand corrected, but I did not ever hear any of my Dad's family mention cremation. They were all that vintage. I reckon that a burial is most likely.
How about everyone in Liverpool and surrounding area asking about among their friends, and how about something on the local radio or TV channel to find any relis!
They would have to prove their relationship of course!
Rabbit B :D
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That's great to hear Edna - and of course we do have Elizabeth exact DOD ( Reply #577 Today )! Not going up that way by any chance ;D ;D ;D
Hi Rabbit B
Quite agree - I would not expect Robert to have been cremated, not in 1926 (I don't believe Edna was referring to him though, but to Elizabeth!)
Word of mouth does fantastic things - and I think a lot of effort has gone into trying to get it into the Echo (or more recently Daily Post?) (see earlier in topic) (I can't understand this not working out - My Aunt had articles printed in the Echo and they had a great result)
Yes I believe Robert was buried, and very possibly a death notice was placed in a newspaper, possiby several notices - and pssobly a notice would have been placed up to 10 days or so after the funeral - a thankyou from his wife.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thornton is an interment cemetery as well as cremitorium and I was talking about Elizabeth who died more recently not Robert and it covers the area of Crosby where she last was known to be living.
AMBLY just been past it at the weekend but not due again just yet to go that way.
Edna
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Thanks Ambly,
I thought, but was not sure that I was right about that!
Rabbit B
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http://forums.icnorthwest.co.uk/index.php?c=15
This is the forum for the Liverpool Echo,Daily Post, Crosby Herals ect.,
If anyone wants to join and add the questions from this thread.
Edna
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Now that does look worth a try ... I'm off to bed now or I would do it but off to Glasgow in the morning for the RC meet ..If no one has done it before I get back on Monday I'm happy to do it ... Annie is doing a summary so she may have all the salient details to hand ... Sorry Annie :'( :' .....but will happily do it when I come back .. G'night all :)
Poll
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So far as Thornton Cemetery is concerned
The Book of Remembrance will only have the details of Elizabeth Hurst and maybe a verse which was chosen at the time.
The details of who organised/authorised the funeral are not allowed to be divulged.
HOWEVER, I've managed to get the lady at the crem interested enough to investigate with their electoral rolls whether this person is still at the address they have for them (actually it's a him but that's a bit of a secret), and if he is she can try to contact him and ask him to phone me. She may not be able to look into this until tomorrow so we may have to wait in patience.
Yes I did throw some of the names found on here at her, also the beneficiaries name and witnesses, but it doesn't appear to be any of them, nor is it Hurst.
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Yahoo Wocky ;D 8) 8)
As tis said
Someone has to give something here.
Perhaps this lady is the one!
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I have the marriage certificate for Elizabeth and her second husband Frank Hurst, It took place at Altrincham Register Office on 8th August 1940. I've checked the local paper (Altrincham Guardian) for the next two issues but no report . Elizabeth was 44 amd a widow which is what we would expect.
She was a Maternity Hospital Nurse at an address in Timperley, Altrincham. I'll find this address shortly but I'm pessimistic about finding anything further. Frank's address at time of marriage was 6, Irlam Road, Sale. I'll find this address too. I think Frank died in 1959:
Death Frank W Hurst Mar Q 1959 age 57 (He was 38 when ne married Elizabeth) Registartion District was Barton - which borders Bucklow.
Thinks: Do we have any earlier or even later knowledge of Elizabeth being a Nurse?
Reiver
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Oh my goodness Reiver - that's great - thank you ! :D ;D you've been busy !
A Maternity Hospital Nurse ..... I don't remember seeing that before ! wonder where she worked ? Altrincham ? is there a big hospital there ?
Will you let us know about the addresses then Reiver ?
Oooh are we nearly there yet ?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Annie
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You know, this is like a new mystery every day .. . . . can't wait to get my 'fix' every morning.
After all your work I do hope you manage to sort everything out.
Barbara
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What a fascinating thread. I have taken over 2 hours to read it.
What a smashing lot you are to give so much time and effort to trying to locate this man's rellies.
Michel, I do hope that there is a successful outcome to this search.
Kesannah
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Perhaps we are getting beyond this now but Blundellsands library sent my request re the burial of Robert William Stead to the Crosby library and I have received the following:
Thank you for your e-mail which was passed onto me here at Crosby Local
History Unit. I am sorry for the delay in replying; I am working on
your query and am trying to find an obituary for Robert William Stead in
the local newspaper, the Crosby Herald, because that would presumably
tell me where he was buried. When I have got more information I will
get back to you.
Yours faithfully
Andrew Lee-Hart
(Local History Librarian, Crosby Library)
Norah
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Hopefully we can get some replies now...I know this one has got us all itching again to resolve it.
I did try ringing the Post but got stuck on a loop so may try a second e-mail.
Tazzie
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Annie asked about the addresses on the marraige certificate for Elizabeth and Frank Hurst.
Elizabeths address was Timperley Lodge Nursing Home where she was a Maternity Hospital Nurse. It is a large Victorian building in large grounds. Been there this afternoon but no one answered. May now be a private house. I'll try and find more.
Frank Hurst was a Chief Job Time Clerk at an Aircraft Works. (Trafford Park? ) He lived at 6, Irlam Road Sale.
Been there this afternoon as well. Now divided into 6 flats/apartments. No knowledge from an 'older' gentleman of a Hurst but of some sisters called Bell in the 90s who 'owned' the property.
All now deceased.
I'll try and follow addrresses post war via Electoral Roll . They may have moved later. As I said I think Frank died in 1959 and registered in Barton (next door Registration District to Bucklow) so they may have moved into Stretford or Barton, which is not far away.
Could Frank have left a will? If he did, it could name relatives of his - and Elizabeth's.
Reiver
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The Hursts moved to 24 Cressingham Road Stretford sometime before 1950. FW Hurst is listed at that address in phone books 1950-59.
Mrs E N Hurst is there in 1963.
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Wow Reiver ! what a lot of information you have ... that's terrific ! ;D ;D
Maybe this will give us the impetus we need .......
Stretford is still in Manchester though ... isn't it ?
Annie :)
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Not me :) It was Shaun :) Thanks Shaun.
So Frank and Elizabeth were in Sale in 1940. Probably at 6, Irlam Road. Frank Hurst was living there when they married. Apparently Frank had been divorced.
They moved, as Shaun says to Stretford before 1950. Their new address is 24, Cressingham Road. Apparently they are both there till 1959 - when I think Frank died. Elizabeth was there in 1963.
IF my assumption is right and that the Airctaft Works where Frank worked was in Trafford Park (Metrovicks?), then it could be moving nearer to where he worked.
Is Stretford in Manchester?? Stretford is north of the Mersey, was in Lancashire and part of manchester. Sale is south of the Mersey, was in Cheshire, was not in Manchester They are now both in Greater Manchester and both are in Trafford, a borough of GM.
Why do you ask, Annie?
Cressingham Road may warrant a visit.
Reiver
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I asked - because I kept thinking we were supposed to be looking "over the water "
and that's Cheshire ... ::)
But maybe we should be looking in Manchester for clues .... is that right ?? :-\ now I'm all turned around !!
I found houses for sale in Cressingham Road !! ;D
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Annie
Strictly speaking Sale is in Cheshire but is on a Manchester post code/zip code of M33 and its local govt is Trafford, which covers parts of Mcr too!
Too confusing!
M
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What a fascinating thread. I have taken over 2 hours to read it.
What a smashing lot you are to give so much time and effort to trying to locate this man's rellies.
Michel, I do hope that there is a successful outcome to this search.
Kesannah
Good evening Kesannah,
Also I hope with all my heart, that would be really wonderful, God can hear you.
Michel
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I received the following from Crosby Library which may be of some help:
Thank you for your two e-mails. Unfortunately I have been unable to
find out where Robert William Stead was buried.
The two Anglican Churches in the area with graveyards are St. Helen's
Church in Sefton & St. Luke's in Crosby, we have the index for both, but
he is not listed. Nor is he listed in the Roman Catholic Cemetery at
Ford or Ince Blundell.
If he was Roman Catholic he may have been buried at S.S. Peter & Paul's
Church, Crosby. I think the church has its burial index you can contact
them on
0151 928 3456 or ssppaul[at]aol.com
The other possibility is Bootle Cemetery, you will need to contact
Thornton Garden of Rest 0151 924 5143.
Another way of finding out where he was buried is to try and find an
obituary or a death notice in a local newspaper. If you contact
Liverpool Record Office the staff their should be able to tell you which
local newspapers would be worth looking at for Gateacre in the 1920s.
0151 233 5817
recoffice.central.library[at]liverpool.gov.uk
This maybe a long shot; but in Crosby in the nineteenth century there
was a Stead family many of whom were pillars of the Methodist community
in the area. It is possible that he might be related to them, and
therefore connected to a Methodist Church in Gateacre.
I hope that this has been of help and I hope you are able to find the
burial place of Robert William Stead.
Yours sincerely
It was good to receive such a helpful reply
Norah
Moderator comment: emails amended to prevent spamming and other abuses. Please replace [at] with @ to make them work
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I'm so glad this thread started up again, I've been reading it since it was only around 20 pages long.
He seems to be exteremely elusive in death! Maybe his family did bury him as a methodist :-\
Well done everyone, you're doing a brilliant job, he can't hide forever!!
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Hello All
Shaun found Frank and Elizabeth at 24, Cressingham Road, Stretford. (Frank died in 1959?)
Elizabeth was on her own at 24, Cressingham Rd in 1963. She moved to 'Liverpool to be with her sister' in January 1965.
Timperley Lodge Nursing Home, where Elizabeth was a Maternity Nurse in 1940 is now and has been for some time a private house. No records available.
I'll PM other details to Annie because we may be affecting living people.
Regards
Reiver
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Well I'm here for a minute ... I have to talk quick - in case I get knocked off again !! ;D ;D
Norah .... that lady was very helpful .... thank you so much for getting that ! :D
He could have been Methodist couldn't he ? .... you know how men are ( I'm ducking as I say that !! ) .... he probably said "yes" to C of E because it was easier !! ..... can we try the Stead family in Crosby ? ...... nothing ventured nothing gained as they say !! :)
Reiver ..... I got to read your PM - but couldn't reply as I can't turn pages .... I have to keep getting in through the back door so to speak ....... but you did a nice job .... thank you for going to the trouble !!
As soon as I can get on here and STAY on here ... I will be !! ....... I feel like Mr Grace .... "Carry on "..... without me !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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She moved to 'Liverpool to be with her sister' in January 1965.
Her sister ... that would be Jeanie Graham Grant born 1893 ... now what do we know about her?
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J G Grant was still living at the family home ("Ardlui" St Andrews Drive Blundellsands) at least until 1960 per the phone book
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I E Mailed the Liverpool Record Office giving Robert's details and also asked about newspapers which may contain his death notice.
Perhaps there are others who may be able to find later Steads of the Crosby Methodist family.
I am not yet familiar enough with a computer to look at web sites which can give addresses and telephone numbers.
Norah
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Robert's ancestors back to 1801 on the Stead side were born in Leicester - I doubt there's a Crosby connection on that side of the family.
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From the phonebook listings it looks like Jeanie Grant moved to 39 Ilford Avenue in Crosby in 1960 and was there until 1972.
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There is a Registration of Death as follows:
March Quarter 1978 Liverpool Registration District
Jeanie Graham Grant born 27th August 1893
Was this when sister Elizabeth Hurst moved into Sheltered Housing? She would have been 82/83 years old.
Reiver
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Reiver, yes that looks right for Jeanie, and 1978 therefore probably was the time that Elizabeth moved into sheltered accommodation.
Elizabeth and Jeanie Grant had a brother James P ( I think it was James Peterkin) Grant born 1898/1899 - I wonder what became of him?
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Shaun
I wonder whether James Peterkin Grant b 1898/99 ought to go on the back burner for a while. It would mean trying to track him through to current days like you were able to do for his sister.
My thought now is that we perhaps ought to establish for certain Robert's brothers and/or sisters. They and any younger generations are more akin to him that perhaps his wife's family.
I don't know what you and others think? Have we any facts?
I had a track back though on the 1901 Census investgatiosns very early on - but found it awkward to resolve who Robert's family were.
Regards
Reiver
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Reiver, as far as we know the only sibling of Robert Stead was Norah (1893 -1881) who married George Galloway Dobell.
The feeling of the team back 9 months or so ago was that we ought not to spend time pursuing the Dobell line, but it may be the only one left to pursue.
Will send a PM re the Stead/Grant tree.
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I bet you any money .... he's with his Mum and Dad !! :-\
but where ???? ... and I'm sure he'd have a headstone .... I keep going back to Anfield ... I really have a strong feeling he's there !
Ooooooh ... I wish he'd come out !!!!!!!!!!!!
I bet when we do find him .... we'll all say ... now why didn't we think of that ! ::) ::)
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Hi everyone
Great leaps being made ! it's so great!!
My humble opinion? Without losing track of the main hunts happening (Shaun and Reiver currently with the baton ;D) I don't think it can hurt to try and contact ANYONE at all who knew or is descended from any member of the family on either Robert's or Elizabeth's side. We just never know who knew who or how well! Or who might have that precious photograph! The worst that can happen is to find someone, only to be told "I haven't a clue!" But in my expericence? With a leading question of two, they might add on "But, you can try...."
Hopefully, Gatacre's emails will unearth a death notice. And not to forget Wocky's very promising line of enquiry, that may turn something up too!
But if there is a Dobell descendant who can be found (or is ???was there not a chap somewhere in business?) or descendants of Elizabeth's brother....worth a go, I'd say.
Cheers
AMBLY
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I've been thinking that collectively we have so much data on this family now that we should put it up on a website - not only as a resource for our Robert Stead quest but also as a point of call for the family should a cousin start researching the family history. I'd be happy to co-ordinate that - might the RC powers-that-be let us have some free space for it? Mods please advise.
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Hi Shaun
You already have the data on a website, lol!
Seriously, there are issues with putting info about living people on a website without their permission.
If descendants of this family begin to research, they will surely find this thread.
Meanwhile Annie is working on summarising the info you have so far and highlighting what needs to be done next (only you lot keep moving the goal-posts with your wonderful discoveries!) ;D
Bear with us and we will do our bit to help you organise what you have and hopefully you are nearly "there" by now?!?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Arranroots,
It's a big, big, long thread and the thought was that if we could set up a site that has the key data - it would certainly help newcomers to get up to speed if we had the central family data in one place...
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Hi Shaun
;D
It is long, isn't it - I get to abt page 8 and my eyes go wonky, so I skip to page 37 and hope I haven't missed anything !!
We quite agree on the length of the thread and as Arran said, I also happen to know our dear Annie is working on the very thing you have suggested - great minds and all that.
The idea is to summarise and start I believe a new topic with that summary. (linked to this one for those with a couple hours to spare for reading it) I think the content of the new topic may be controlled as to what goes on to it to keep it succint and manageable.
I think it'll be as good as a 'real' website too, for family researchers to find.
Certainley this thread comes up with bells if I search his or his father's name - so I'm sure that a new 'topic' would do too.
Annie's having bother with her PC at present and keeps disappearing, but I'm sure she'll appreciate a PM if you have some ideas for a summary or can give her a hand wading thru the 210+ pages of Word document pages this topic generates ;D ;D ;D
Kindest Cheers ;D
AMBLY
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I will second that Shaun and Ambly, the thread is now far too long!
I propose that the person who started this thread, abbreviates, it down to the facts that we now know are correct!
Rabbit B ;D
PS are there writers out there who could make these stories into a book?
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Is there a way that the in-irrelavent messages such as this can be removed from the thread to shorten it down to those messages that are helpful as many of us add to the thread to get feed back for e-mails from rootschat but we can access it through the Lancashire pages to keep it shorter.
Also if anyone has any information for this thread that is in another area outside of Lancashire can they add to the area with a reference to this thread if thats helpful
Personally I thought it worthwhile to spend the two hours reading the thread throughout but a concise version would be helpful for the research.
Edna
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Liverpool Annie - who started this topic after taking up the challenge of Michel's Quest - is actively working on the very thing , a concise Summary version of this topic - that will cover both your ideas/proposals, Rabbit B and Edna ;D ;D
Won't be long now, I shouldn't think!
Cheers
AMBLY
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For those that don't know, here's a tip for reading this (and any other) thread offline, which I only discovered a few days ago.
At the end of the last post at the right hand side of the page is a "print" button.
Hit that and the whole thread appears in a new window.
Then go file..save as, then save as type.
I use web archive, single file, with the suffix .mht
Then save it to your pc. You can then open it up in internet explorer as one very very long page.
I don't know whether it works in Firefox.
Peter
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As most letters to newpapers seeking descendants of families are published could anybody tell me where the sister of Robert Wm Stead was found to be living?
I have researched for 30 years without a computer and have had phenomenal success from newspaper letters. Perhaps our luck will strike with this Stead family if their name is printed in a local paper.
Norah
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Norah,
Robert's sister Norah M GallowayDobell died in December 1981 at 5 St Peters Close, Heswall.
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"Nora May Dobell
died aged 88 on 8 Dec 1981 at home 5 St Peters Close Heswall (formerly of Bramerton Meols Drive West Kirby) widow of George Galloway. Service and cremation at Landican Crematorium Monday Dec 14 11am.
Flowers to T. A. Ball Funeral Service Woodchurch Birkenhead."
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Thank you Shaun. I will write to the newspaper for descendants of Norah.
I will also send to the Libverpool papers.
Norah
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I bet you any money .... he's with his Mum and Dad !! :-\
but where ???? ... and I'm sure he'd have a headstone .... I keep going back to Anfield ... I really have a strong feeling he's there !
He's not at Anfield according to the chap at Liverpool council see #537, he would still have a separate listing somewhere even if he was interred with his parents.
I've had no reply yet from Thornton but I think we are going to have to turn our attention to chuchyard burials rather than municipal cemeteries as we are running out of options.
I'm 'out of the area' in London and have no local knowledge, sorry
Dawn
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Norah,
We are pretty certain that Norah Stead/Dobell has no descendants. In her Will she makes bequests to her gardener, her housekeeper, her Crease cousins, and various other individuals, but the bulk of her estate was left to her brother-in-law Arthur Dobell. No mention of any children.
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That is a problem, Shaun, her Crease cousins could be anywhere other then on the Wirral.
Perhaps it would be a good thing if anybody has Ancestry they could find the person in the Stead family who married a Crease but then they may be on her mother's side.
I do think it is necessary to investigate the family of Robert now that the information about his wife Elizabeth
has been found.
Norah
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It's already known, Norah.
Norah's aunt Alice Richards married Miller Crease. They had 3 children that we know of, Alice 1901, Emily 1902 and Robert Miller Crease 1907 (d. 1984).
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Norah's aunt Alice Richards married Miller Crease. They had 3 children that we know of, Alice 1901, Emily 1902 and Robert Miller Crease 1907 (d. 1984).
Shaun, without reading all this thread , were the Crease family in the Liverpool district?
Norah
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Norah, I'm afraid there's no alternative at the moment to reading through the whole thread. I just had to go back to 22 January 07 to remind myself of the research that was done on the Crease family.
See Reply number 355, where MaryA reports on the conversation she had with Robert Crease's widow.
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See Reply number 355, where MaryA reports on the conversation she had with Robert Crease's widow.
Thank you Shaun, I was on page 3 when you mailed. It has saved a lot of time. Will read what is said.
Norah
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Shaun
After eading the preceeding pages to post 355 I think I agree that as much as possible has been done to trace relaives of Robert Wm. Stead. I do not want to sound defeatist but if Robert Crease's widow could not help it makes one wonder who could.
Norah
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Well for something completely different ..... I found out that before WW1 our Robert worked at Parrs Bank Ltd Market branch Liverpool and was bonded .........
Annie - where did that information come from ? Did you find out anything else about Robert's pre-war days ... any reference to his school for instance? ( If we can't find any family, his school might like to have the wrist tag)
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I've had no reply yet from Thornton but I think we are going to have to turn our attention to chuchyard burials rather than municipal cemeteries as we are running out of options.
Dawn, please refresh me on what you are waiting for from Thornton. Are we duplicating things here?
I posted details about Elizabeth's cremation and scattering of ashes.
Thornton wasn't open at the date Robert died but it seems unlikely that he would be buried in the Thornton area unless there was a family grave somewhere.
He died in Garston so if he isn't buried in the southern end of Liverpool then I think a private grave might be likely, possibly with his parents? but where?
To clarify what I am waiting on from Thornton is contact from the person who arranged Elizabeth's cremation. This depends on whether they are still at the same address after all these years and secondly whether they are interested enough to make contact anyway.
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No Wocky we aren't duplicating.
Please see my post 537 on page 36.
I published a list of minicipal cemeteries/crematoria. I made contact with Liverpool council and Chris there very kindly told me free of charge where he wasn't and suggested Central library for more info.
Central library told me, also free of charge, where he wasn't.
Sefton council look after Bootle cemetery but the records are held at Thornton, but they make a charge for look-ups so I've sent an email to Thornton to see if Robert is at Bootle, acting innocent of the look-up charge.
Dawn
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Good afternoon all.
Can I just check with those who have been following this very closely. please? :) :)
We know that Robert's father was a William Stead who m Emily Richards. She married a Mr Crease, She is being followed up I believe. We are therefore looking for a cousin of Robert to whom the wrist tag could be passed on.
Are there any other sisters or brothers of Emily who ought to be worked on?.
If we are following up on Robert's aunts and uncles on his mother's side, ought we not to do the same on his father's side? I've been doing some digging but wanted to know how much had already been done?
Reiver
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Reiver - I'm experimenting with ways to make the key facts available and have just sent you an email with a link - please let me know if the link works and if you can access the site.
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quote
Dear Edna
Thank you for your email regarding Robert William Stead. I am still looking through the records that we hold, at the moment I have drawn a blank.
I will try and included this search in our next Newsletter which will be published in December in the hope that our members may have some info.
I have to admit that I have not had time to read all 44 pages of the thread! if you are able to summarise the search for me it would be a great help.
Regards Bob Steed (Stead-Steed ONS)
----- Original Message -----
This is the reply from Bob Stead (mentioned by me on page forty) at the one name study of Stead-Steed shall I send a summary of what the thread is about or would anyone else like to reply to Bob.
Edna
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sorry about the multiple posts but each time I tried to post I got an error message up so did not know it had posted
Edna
Moderator Comment: No Problems, repeat posts deleted :) :)
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I had earache last week but I'm not deaf now !!!!lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Everybody !
OK ! lets all just stop for a minute and take a breath !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
The people who have been with this thread from the beginning ... pretty much know ( in general ::) ) where to look for information
The new people to the thread - have too much to read - therefore are asking questions about things that have already been addressed and we're using up valuable space by going over the same things !
The "powers that be " ( whoever they are ::) ::) ::) ::) ) will be complaining in the very near future !
So ... if you wouldn't mind just holding on .... till we can get this summary thing up to date .... so then we're all on the same page ..... I'd really appreciate it !
I don't want you guys going off " the boil " ... because this is a pretty REMARKABLE thread but if you can hang onto your hat just a little bit longer .... we'll get this thing up and running again !!
Thanks you guys !
Annie :)
PS Shaun ..... his service papers !! :)
Well for something completely different ..... I found out that before WW1 our Robert worked at Parrs Bank Ltd Market branch Liverpool and was bonded ......... it that too far back to pursue ??
In 1913, the bank formed a subsidiary, London County and Westminster Bank (Paris), which opened branches during and after World War I in Bordeaux, Lyons, Marseilles, Nantes, Brussels, and Antwerp. The bank itself also established offices in Barcelona and Madrid during the same time. In 1917, bank officials decided to acquire the Ulster Bank (which continued to operate separately), with 170 branches throughout Ireland, and in 1918 bought Parr's Bank, with over 320 offices throughout England. These purchases made London, County, Westminster & Parrs (which became simply Westminster Bank Ltd. in 1923)the fifth-largest bank in England.
http://www.answers.com/topic/national-westminster-bank-plc
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Wise words from Annie.
As an interim solution I can offer (with Annie's approval) access to the Stead family data that was brought together from this thread by MaryA, who did some wonderful work on the project in the early days. I can make this data available to interested researchers but you'll need the URL and the password. PM me if you are interested.
At present the data is as it was around 6 months ago but I will be updating for newer information over the next few days.
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Hi everybody - you have been ( and are ) all terrific !
As has been said - this topic is getting so large it has become unmanageable ! and I've been wracking my brain ( and other peoples ! ) to think of ways to make it easier ... and I'm hoping this will work ..... ( if not ... we'll try something else !! )
We also have to continue to be aware that although the people being researched on this topic are all deceased and were born over 100 years ago we must be careful about getting to close to identifying living persons who may not wish to be identified and of identifying private residences of people who have no connection to the people in this topic. In our eagerness to solve the mystery, we just may have on accasion come too close to the boundaries here. We have no wish to upset anyone in this, our Quest - which is when all is said and done, is intended to Honour a WW1 veteran who was born in 1896
Please see the continuation topic here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,261805.0.html
I hope you will all continue to help solve the mystery of " The Tag " and my Friend's deep desire to reunite it with the family
Anyone who has new informnation - ( completely new ) - or as the result of enquiries you have made and told us about ..... please don't be put off - please PM me as we will also try and co-ordinate a summary of lines of enquiry made and to be made ............ !!