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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: C_Bishop on Friday 12 January 07 09:31 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Is there anyone out there who can find a 1871 Census for a Thomas Bishop? He seems to have 2 different birth years on the 1901 and 1881 Census's, one says 1844, the other 1840. I think i found him again in 1861 living with his mother Mary Bishop. And an unexplainable Edward Bishop who is a lodger, thought it may be related in some way yet have traced back further and can't find any link. Thomas was born in Ticehurst, Sussex.
In 1901 and 1881 he is living with his wife Elizabeth, and 4 kids (1881) then 3 kids & grandchild (1901) If anyone can help i'd really appreciate it.
Thanks
cat.
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Hi again Cat,
More information from the 1861 census would be helpful as I can only find a Thomas G Bishop with a mother Mary but no lodger. Give the 1861 ref. number please,
jane
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Have a look at the 1891 RG12 778 F8 p10 His wife is called Anne but the children fit very well. I think his age ends with 7 on every one if you look at the originals rather than the transcription.
I can't find the lodger either!
Andrea
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FreeBMD has a marriage for a Thomas Bishop in Oct-Dec 1871 in Ticehurst when one of the possible brides is Elizabeth Ann Smith.
Andrea
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The 1851 census has a Thomas Bishop age 6 b Etchingham with parents Joseph and Mary and living with them is Edward age 56 - a widower. There is a strong chance he is Joseph's father. H0 1071639 F50
Etchingham and Ticehurst are next door to eahc other.
Andrea
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Hi everyone
I am so sorry it was 1851 census with the lodger. Can't believe i made that mistake :'(
Yes you all have the right census's but i don't think Edward is Josephs father as i have been lead to believe that his father was a man named Joseph, born 1781. Yet on another msg board there is some confusion with this man...but i don't think we should go there as it is a little messy! :-\
Wouldn't Edward be classed as father on the census and not lodger? Could be a uncle possibly.
Maybe Thomas isn't on 1871 census as he may have been on honeymoon with his new wife ;D I have just found that they married in 1871.
Thanks
Cat
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Edward is not described as anything in 1851. It does not say lodger. When in 1871 did Thomas marry? The one I suggested may not be the correct one. You would have to get a child's birth certificate to get the mother's maiden name to be sure. He is most unlikely to have been out of the country on honeymoon. In fact he is most unlikely to have had a honeymoon! Most working people had one day off for the marriage and that was it.
Please do not make the mistake of relying on information given on message boards. Whereas we do try to be as accurate as possible you must look at original sources to check all information you are given. Looking for a marriage for Joseph and Mary will help. If you can get a certificate then that will say who Joseph's father was.
You may spend ages chasing the wrong line if you do not have a bit more postive information.
Andrea
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Hi Cat,
Firstly, if you go to the Sussex Family History Groups site,
http://www.sfhg.org.uk/newmap_of_parishes.html
You will get a printable map of Sussex parishes. I printed all the sections out then carefully stuck them together to get a full picture of all of Sussex.
The parishes you are researching in are in EAST sussex. On that note, Burwash, Salehurst & Etchingham are all in the registration district of TICEHURST.
Looking at the 1851 census for the family;
Oasthouse Cottage, Burwash
Joseph Bishop 28 ag lab b. Etchingham
Mary 32 ditto
THOMAS 6 ditto (1845)
Edward Bishop wid 56 ag lab b. Salehurst.
I would take the age of Thomas as about correct on this census as his parents would be more likely to know & give the correct information. The younger they are the more likely the age is going to be right.
There is an extracted baptismal record on familysearch for THOMAS GEORGE Bishop, 28/2/1844, Etchingham.
It doesn't give a relationship for Edward to Joseph. As it's not his father (see below) it could be an uncle.
So far so good. The marriage of Joseph Bishop, Ticehurst reg. district, Q3 1843 (7 581) also has Mary NEWICK on the same page.
Taking it back even further for the parents of Joseph, I found the only likely candidate;
1841 - Dorset St. Kemptown, Brightelmstone (old name for Brighton) HO107/1123/4/11/15
Isabella Bishop 55 Fisherwoman
JOSEPH 20
Mary 15
Isabella 15
Thomas 10
All born Sussex (ages rounded down)
It's very likely that Isabella's husband was out on the high seas earning a living on the night of the census, so to identify him I looked on the SMI...his name was Benjamin
Brighton, East Sussex, 13 Mar 1803:
Benjamin BISHOP, bach
Isabel PAIN, sp botp (B)
I'll look for Thomas George on the 1861 & 1871 later unless someone gets there first , but I think I did spot him yesterday. He wouldn't have been on his honeymoon as he married later in that year & the census was taken in April so he should be a single man.
Hope I haven't forgotten anything & that sorts things out a bit ;D
jane
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Hi Andrea
Yes i do realise that i cannot depend fully on the info yet it is something to work with, i was only kidding with the honeymoon as i know that this line i am working with would not be in the position to do that.
Jane, thank you for that info, i will see where it leads me, as Andrea has pointed out i will need to get some certs, thank you for the time you have spent on my family it is very appreciated. :)
Cat
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Hi Cat,
1861 - Northbridge? St. Salehurst RG9/571/40/4
Mary Bishop head wid 42 b. Etchingham
Thomas G. Bishop son 17 ag lab
Two death registration for Joseph Bishop,
Q3 1853 Ticehurst (2b 42)
Q1 1860 Ticehurst (2 b 55)
Can't find Thomas or Mary in 1871 :(
jane
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Hi Jane
Yea its a bit of a mystery to his where abouts in 1871, I found 1 possibilty yet can't be 100% sure, and that was a census for the Royal Navy in Bombay Harbour. Not sure as his birth is recorded as 1844, Brighton, and its a little different to a agriculture labourer. He is classed as a leading seaman. not sure but maybe possible.
thanks
Cat
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Yes, I saw that one too but the dob didn't fit. If you get his marriage certificate it will give his occupation & being only a few months before his marriage might confirm or otherwise.
I suppose you could look on the National Archives site to see if there is a seaman's record in his name...worth a try!
jane
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Hi Jane
Yes i think your right it would solve it getting a marriage cert. I have been trying to avoid getting certs as i am 24 y/o and on a tight budget! Am i able to order british certs from New Zealand? i haven't really looked into it, pounds to NZ $ is a ridiculous cost! Yet i do realise to take on your family history it isn't cheap!
Thanks alot for the help :)
Cat
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Hi Jane
Could you advise me on the best ways to pursue researching before 1837. I would like to learn more about Benjamin Bishop and his wife Isabella. I have a few lines that have just got to the pre 1837 generation and have been stumped as to where to go from here. Any advice would be great.
Thanks
Cat.
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Cat
If you are a member of the NZ Society of Genealogists you can obtain English certs through them. Check out their website for the costs. $23 each from memory, with reference.
Ian C
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hi Ian
Thanks, ;D had no idea about that site being new to all of this! have just had a look and looks very reasonable! now i just need to get my printer up and running to print a app form!! ::)
Thanks
Cat
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Cat
Some info I found.
Joseph Bishop married Mary Newick at Etchingham, 21 Aug 1843, he was 21 she was 24. His father Joseph Bishop, her father Thomas Newick. Extracted entry on IGI.
Thomas George Bishop baptised Etchingham, 28 April 1844, parents Joseph and Mary. Only one on the IGI.
Submitted entry Joseph born Etchingham 30 Jun 1822, parents Joseph Bishop and Philadelphia Willard. Also has a burial date for this Joseph of 9 Jan 1860. An extracted entry has Joseph baptised 30 Jun 1822, parents Joseph Bishop and Philly. Another extracted entry, Hannah bapt 7 Feb 1819 at Etchingham. Quite a few submitted entries with parents as Joseph and Philadelphia.
Banns for Joseph Bishop and Philadelphia Willard at Salehurst, 21 April 1811. She was from Hawkhurst. Has a burial date for her of Sep 1859 at Etchingham.
Philadelphia was his second wife. There is a submitted marriage entry for a Joseph to Sarah Collins at Etchingham 28 Oct 1803. There is a burial at Etchingham 21 Apr 1810 for Sarah. Joseph was son of John Bishop and Ann Bean, born c1781 at Etchingham. Burial date also for Joseph 21 Sep 1853 at Etchingham. Three children on IGI to Joseph and Sarah. Quite a few children for John and Ann also.
John married Ann Bean 12 Dec 1782 at Salehurst. Burial date for John at Salehurst 10 Mar 1803. John's parents Henry Bishop and Ann Marshall
There is an Edward on the IGI born 1794 at Salehurst, parents James Bishop and Mary Mudge. This James was a son of above Henry and Ann, so Edward the lodger was related.
Ian C
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Hi Ian
Thanks for that, thats the trail i followed to begin with yet there was a problem with the marriage between joseph and Philadelphia. So i'm not so confident on it. But it does explain Edward doesn't it. hmm i'm unsure now of where to go ??? i've got my mother to print off that app form for NZ Society and will try to get that sorted asap and will get certs as this is bugging me now!
Hopefully i will get NZ Society sorted soon and will post my hopeful success!
Thank you
Cat
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Mary Newick possibly daughter of Thomas Newick and Sarah, as there are IGI entries for other Newicks at Etchingham. Possible siblings Thomas, Henry, Jane, William, Sarah, Anne, and most married at Etchingham or Ticehurst in 1840s.
1851 census has Joseph and Philadelphia at Etchingham, but gives his birthplace as Surrey, not known. Her birthplace as Sandhurst, Kent.
1841 has Joseph and Philadelphia at Hurst Green, Etchingham, neither born in county. Daughter Hannah aged 20 was born in county.
Philadelphia could have been a widow as well when she married Joseph. It would be worth getting the parish films from the FHC when they open again and checking the source, for Salehurst and Etchingham.
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1841 at Barden Etchingham
Thomas Newick 50 Ag Lab
Sarah Newick 45
Mary Newick 20
Jane Newick 15
William Newick 15
Ann Newick 13
Henry Newick 11
All born in county. Ages tie in with those on IGI.
Sarah Newick possibly born Sarah KEMP. Only entry in 1851 for Sarah Newick in age group is with two Kemp brothers William and Richard, at Sedlescombe as their sister. Same in 1861 and 1871. In 1841 William and Richard at Beech Cottages, Sedlescombe with their widowed mother Mercy. No Thomas Newick in 1851.
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Hi Ian
Thank you for all that info. The Newick family seems to be good. Yet i am not to trusting of the submitted entry for Philadelphia married to Joseph Bishop as Jane (other postings) has tried to sort that one out and Philadelphia had married a Joseph yet not a Bishop, by memory i think she married another fella too. It was in another board. So i think that submitted entry may be wrong. If i get a cert it should suss that one out. It all seems to fit so perfectly though doesn't it. The fact that Edward fits in too tends to make me lean towards this info too.
O well, have recorded all this info and will put it aside for when i have some certs, will definitely let you know if you are right!
Thank you very much
Cat.
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Thomas Newick son of Henry Newick and Susannah Barham, born c 1790. Henry and Susannah married at Etchingham, 5 Oct 1779.
Thomas Newick married Sarah Kemp 16 April 1816 at Sedlescombe. She was daughter of George Kemp and Mercy. She died 1878 Etchingham.
Thomas Newick died 1844, buried Etchingham 31 Oct 1844.
Mary Bishop nee Newick married William Gallop 22 Nov 1862 Ticehurst. She died 1881.
Came from Eve Finch Tree
1862 Dec qtr Ticehurst 2b 166 Mary Bishopp married William Gallop
1871 census
William Gallup 54 AgLab born Ticehurst
Mary Gallup 52 born Etchingham
1881 Mar qtr Mary Gallop death aged 61 Ticehurst 2b 63
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Hi Cat,
Looking through all these red herrings, one thing that's a bit troublesome is the fact that amongst all the member submitted dross on the IGI there is an EXTRACTED marriage for Joseph Bishop to PHILIS WILLARD 20/5/1811 at Ewhurst, East Sussex but it doesn't show on the Sussex Marriage Index (SMI) which I find very odd :-\
I did spot this as I was trawling through. Could be yet another red herring but keep it just in case :)
Hawkhurst, Kent, 12 Aug 1811:
Philadelphia BISHOP, otp
Samuel RUSSELL, Salehurst
Witness wits: Thomas BISHOP; Duke BROOK
jane
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Hi Ian and Jane
Wow this is very overwhelming, if you were me what would your way be to get around it all? (bearing in mind i live in NZ). I have only been researching my family for not even a month, so am very new to it all! Had no idea in fact that i could achieve what little i do know. lol. I have just learnt that i cannot get birth certs for pre 1837 so i'm gutted as that could have proven Josephs parents!
Cat
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:) You're doing very well Cat for one whose just starting out ;)
I think it's time to re-cap.
If you've proved conclusively all the information before this date;
Q. You're looking for confirmation & parents of Joseph Bishop, allegedly born/baptised ETCHINGHAM Ssx 1822?
A. One EXTRACTED IGI record for Joseph Bishop, 30 June 1822, Etchingham s/o Joseph & Philly Bishop.
Problem. One EXTRACTED marriage on IGI between Joseph Bishop & Philis Willard, 20/5/1811, Ewhurst, Ssx, NOT shown on SMI.
Course of action: As the name is fairly common I would get the marriage certificate of Joseph (1822) this will give his age, occupation & father's name. Without this confirmation you could be running around all over the place!
There are some people researching the Bishop name on the Sussex Family History Group http://www.sfhg.org.uk/ext/ES8.HTM you could try contacting a few of them.
Rootschat has a very good beginners page with many great links http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,290.0.html
Pre July 1 1837, when Civil registration came into being, you have to rely on parish registers & any other documentation you can find, this is where it gets really interesting ;)
jane
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hi jane
thanks, haha this is pretty addictive, alot of time dedicated in a month! i had a 2 week free trial with ancestery uk, so that helped alot, yet only really for the census's. so i didn't carry through with the subscription. very expensive.
It seems pretty difficult now i'm up to pre 1837, i'm researching 3 family lines that are up to this now, the other 3 direct lines i have not had as much luck with. Then of course maiden names etc, never ending isn't it? a lot of fun though.
I'm a bit tight when it comes to certs yet this Bishop line is one of my most important lines so i'll do as much as i can to have everything right, so i am definitly going to get that marriage cert once my membership with NZ society is sorted. i am a very impatient person so i'm feeling agitated that i can't have it right now! lol.
Will let you know when i get it so that we can finally figure this all out! :D
Thanks
cat
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Cat, there is another line of pusuit that you might like to consider. See if there is an LDS centre near you (go to the Familysearch web site to find a list of their world - wide centres) & see if you can order the film (ref nos. are on the bottom of the entry) for that marriage in Ewhurst in 1811. It's very troublesome that it's not on the SMI.
You could also see if they have Etchingham parish registers on film, that way you could check for Joseph's baptism & confirm at least his father.
jane
Sorry, this got posted twice due to gremlins ;)
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Cat, there is another line of pusuit that you might like to consider. See if there is an LDS centre near you (go to the Familysearch web site to find a list of their world - wide centres) & see if you can order the film (ref nos. are on the bottom of the entry) for that marriage in Ewhurst in 1811. It's very troublesome that it's not on the SMI.
You could also see if they have Etchingham parish registers on film, that way you could check for Joseph's baptism & confirm at least his father.
jane
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Cat
Was in A2A today looking for updates for any of mine and put in Joseph Bishop to see what turned up. Eight references from south east of England, only one of which is of interest I would think.
From the ESRO Parish of Ewhurst and was a removal order from Ewhurst 10 Nov 1812, of Joseph Bishop, wife Philadelphia, children Thomas (6) and Elizabeth (1) to Etchingham.
The IGI has a submitted entry for the birth of a Thomas in Salehurst in 1807, with parents Joseph and Sarah. There is also a submitted entry for the birth of an Elizabeth in 1811 at Salehurst, parents Joseph and Philadelphia.
So it looks like Joseph did marry Philadelphia. This should be checked via the parish films through the LDS FHC. The Ewhurst records should have the removal orders as well.
Ian C
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Hi Ian and Jane
I followed your advice Jane and sussed out where the closest LDS centre near me and ends up there is one 10 mins away! So when i have a spare moment i will pop down there. You guys are great, thanks for all the advice, will keep you updated to my findings!
Cat
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That's great, Cat. Good luck!
jane
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Samuel Russell the witness at the marriage was my gggg grandfather, I have several Kemp’s in my tree and some birth and marriage certificate, if you find any Russell’s in your tree I have a lot of info about them going back to 1700 they were a very large family.