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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: neil1821 on Monday 22 January 07 15:49 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Would be grateful if someone could just confirm for me the rank of the seated chap in this photo.
Both Battery Sergeant-Major and Battery Quartermaster-Sergeant have been suggested to me, and I can't decide which!
Many thanks,
Neil
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I go with Battery Sgt. Major.
You may find this site of interest.
http://www.militarybadges.info/images/brit-com/chart.two.jpg
Jebber
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I go with Battery Sgt. Major.
I think it's the crown that clinches it, doesn't it ???
Wonderful photo neil!!!
Wendi :)
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Thanks folks,
That's confirmed what I thought. It's always good to get a second (and a third) opinion though!
Somebody else muddied the waters by insisting he was a quartermaster sergeant. I'll go with my instincts in future.
;D
Neil
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I would go for BQMS. what date is the photo as the badge is Gun single pointing forward.
Gun, Single, Master Gunner & all senior NCO's
Appt(MGnr) below rank badges 1902 to date both lower arms.
Note SNCO's
SNCO's above rank chevrons.
Master Gunner would be a Warrant Officer not SNCO
The single gun has long been worn by all full sergeants & staff/sergeants of the R.A. above their rank chevrons and has no significance regarding their trade or proficiency in matters of gunnery.
So i would go for BQMS
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Thanks for that Monsstar (I think! ;D)
Still some difference of opinion then.
I'll have to consult some books at the library.
Neil
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neil,i would go along with roy [monsstar]hes a long serving senior NCO himself,he knows his stuff,mack
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You need the date of the photo, if before Feb 1915 he could be BSM RA or BQMS, after Feb 1915 BQMS. Do you know his name(Kew MIC).
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:'( Sorry folks, but he's a staff sergeant RA. Sergeant-majors stopped wearing stripes after about 1881, and even then they had four stripes, not three! As a BSM, I should know!
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Agreed, as BSM says, he is a senior NCO not a Warrant Officer, and his rank is Staff-Sergeant or equivalent. As such he could be the BQMS, but not automatically so.
In fact at some time prior to WW2 BQMS seems to have been a separate rank from SSgt but I can't find any description of a different rank insignia. Both seem to have been "Crown over gun over three stripes". Any ideas, BSM ?
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:)The Quartermaster Sergeant of Royal Artillery wore four stripes on the forearm, points upward, these surmounted by a gun and after 1881 also by an eight-pointed star. After 1915, they were reclassified as WO Class II, and wore the crown on the forearm. So our gentleman of the photograph is definitely NOT a QMS! (or BQMS). A useful source of information is "Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Services" by May, Carman and Tanner, published by A&C Black in 1974 - if you can find it!
BSM
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Strange. A search for "BQMS" comes up with a number of sources stating that it is/was a Staff Sgt appointment, and this is what I would have expected. The BSM is a WO2 and his deputy a SSgt.
The following from the MOD's own site "When in camp, I am the Second in Command (2i/c) of the Bty Quartermaster Store. I assist the BQMS SSgt with the day to day running of the Bty BQMS Store"
Am I getting my wires crossed because of the period of the photograph, which I took to be post-1915 ? At that stage the Regimental QMS became a WO2, as you say, but Battery QMS was one rank lower, i.e. SSgt. and would therefore wear the rank badge as shown in the photo.
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Has this got anything to do with it?
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93285.
Also.
http://www.1914-1918.net/33div.htm.
Scroll down to Divisional Artillery 33 ID CLVI Brigade. Date stated to be important earlier. This (superb) photograph could well be 1914/early 1915. Artillery men still have the cap stiffeners in.
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As an ex-gunner you might find this site of some use, it's the RA Museum:
http://firepower.org.uk/
they have lots of info on Artillery matters and suggestions on how to trace ex-gunners. + in my day the BSM wore the Crown lower down on the arm. By the way as they are wearing spurs would this not indicate RHA (Royal Horse Artillery). I wore spurs, but that was part of a Junior Leaders band.
Davie
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Hi Ayrgenes,
156 Brigade was Royal Field Artillery (you can just pick out the RFA on the shoulder of the gunner on the left). As they were horse-drawn during this period they would wear spurs.
Maec
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:'(Yes, did spot that but missed it off my message. Old fingers and eyes you know.....
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It must be said that rank designations for senior NCO's in the later 19th Century were something of a dog's breakfast. In 1802 both Sergeant majors and Quartermaster sergeants had four chevrons on the upper arm; in 1859 a crown was added over the chevrons (and a gun, for the artillery). In 1869 the chevrons were moved to the forearm, with points up. Staff sergeants continued with three chevrons and crown. In 1881 both the QMS and RQMS ranked as staff sergeants class 1 and had four chevrons, point up, with an eight-pointed star (and gun), but in 1882 senior staff-sergeants were raised to warrant rank with a crown on the forearm. Staff sergeants class 2 still had three chevrons and a crown. The QMS was raised to warrant rank in 1915 and had a crown on the forearm. In 1901 a wreath was added to the crown for WO2's, but the crown without wreath was continued for WO3's, a rank since discontinued. (All these quoted by W.Y.Carman.) Although these were the regulations, there is plenty of photographic evidence to show that there were many variations, presumably either from regimental custom or "time lag" in adopting the prescribed insignia. Hence there are numerous pictures of men with stripes pointing up or down, upper arm or forearm, stripes where there should be a crown, etc etc.
BSM
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A most sensible post from BSM, especially the term "dog's breakfast" and the mention of regimental custom. At the appropriate stage in my own Gunner career I had two different patterns of gun above my sergeants stripes at different times. Haven't any photos but I am sure that if I was able to post pics of both the thread would go on for ages as arguments raged as to whether one pattern indicated something the other one didn't!
Belated Christmas greetings to all.
maxD