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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Aley on Tuesday 23 January 07 02:34 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone give info about this Coat of Arms? I was told it is the Ross Coat of Arms.
I read it was William de Ross of Ross the had the 3 Loins Rampant. Where did the rest of the design come from? What are the colors?
Aley
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The middle part is Ross of Ross. "Gules, three lions rampant Argent", which means 3 silver lions on a red background.
Where did this come from?
Heraldry permits the amalgamation of the arms of two families in certain circumstances and the addition of the checked pattern could be something like that. It's very difficult to tell what the colours are without knowing as they could be anything. This could be a legitimate family arms or it could be a "made up" coat of arms put together by someone who liked the idea of their own coat of arms and drew one up. The 3 lions may be coincidence and nothing to do with Ross. The wolf or fox looks a little lost also.
If you don't get a reply I'll send it to my Dad he's a bit of a heraldry buff but won't be at home for the next 6 weeks or so.
Louise
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Louise, I might have one to send for your dad to take a look at too, if he wouldn't mind. I received a coat of arms a while ago on my Warwickshire Collins line. Not sure exactly what time it came about for the family, but one was Shakespeare's lawyer, one was involved in the building of some places in Warwickshire (Cathederal, castle) and from these came William Job Collins and Edward Treacher Collins. I would love to know what it means.
Kath
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I cant tell you anything about you actual coat of arms but this is how they came in being.
Surnames were first introduced by the Normans in the 11th century and were divided roughly into four classifications... Locations, taken from places of origin...Occupations, from trade or profession.. Nick names, describing physical and mental character... Patronymic, taking the first name of of the father as the surname of the son... At about the same time, the Crusades began and with so many men gathered in body armour, recognition was very difficult
So the private Armies began using brightly colored symbols on shields and banners... Later these devices were displayed on Coat Armour, a loose coat worn over the armour... To avoid duplication the Knights Heralds began to record the different shield designs and painted them on rolls of parchment called Rolls of Arms.
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The shading on the checked background implies that the colours were red and white i.e. gules and argent. However, the motto is blank and the crest is not that associated with the Clan Ross coat of arms. Theirs is a hand holding a laurel wreath.
The way this is put together is a little odd. A coat of arms may be placed on top of another like this to indicate marriage between two families. In this case the Ross arms would be of the wife and she is an heiress in her own right. So maybe the crest (i.e. the wolf/fox) comes from the husband's family.
Mr Al Fayed bought Balnagowan Castle, which had originally been a Ross stronghold centuries ago, and put the coat of arms of the castle gates. He got into toruble with the Lord Lyon King of Arms and had to remove them because he wass not entitled to them. He was allowed to leave any coat of arms which had become an integral part of the castle decorations e.g. carved in the masonry.
Beware!
Nell
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Surnames were first introduced by the Normans in the 11th century and were divided roughly into four classifications... Locations, taken from places of origin...Occupations, from trade or profession.. Nick names, describing physical and mental character... Patronymic, taking the first name of of the father as the surname of the son... At about the same time, the Crusades began and with so many men gathered in body armour, recognition was very difficult
So the private Armies began using brightly colored symbols on shields and banners... Later these devices were displayed on Coat Armour, a loose coat worn over the armour... To avoid duplication the Knights Heralds began to record the different shield designs and painted them on rolls of parchment called Rolls of Arms.
Thanks for your explanation. I have been wondering about how or why coats of arms came about.
My paternal grandmother has a coat of arms with 3 boars (possibly elephants). Must be from the character classification ... stubborn and bull headed. :)
yn9man
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Thanks Louise,
I sure would like to know what your Dad can tell me about this.
So it might be or not a Coat of Arms associated with the Ross Clan.
It just could be that someone made it up, don't know.
Aley
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Aley,
I'd really like to know what it came from - was it in a book, printed on something? And how did you come by it? Was it related to a particular family line that you already know of?
thanks, Louise
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The crest of the fox could come from any one of about 19 families, which do not include the Ross family.
The border could arise in a number of ways.
In the 13th century or earlier as the result of the marriage of a Ross female with who ever owned the chequered arms. After that it could only happen if the male Ross line died out and the wife as a result was entitled the arms.
The other possibilty is that it is a Scottish coat of arms and the border shows cadency. In this case it would be a son younger than than the fifth son as the border doesn't indicate any of the first five sons, but this is a guess.
David
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Hi Louise,
It was found in an attic. The owner of the house traced down the other owner
before her and they didn't know it was there (never used the attic). So I was asked to find info on it. She said on the back had, Ross Coat Of Arms. That's all I know.
Aley
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Spent a short time at a library and found this under the name Ross.
Motto; Rosam ne Rode, a Fox issuant with a rose in his mouth. [ Charles Ross son to Ross of Kildace 1672].
Motto; Caute non Astute, A Fox passant.
Motto; Spes Aspera Levat, a Fox head.
Found in, The General Armory of England, Ireland, Scotland , Wales.
Fairbairn's Crests Family.
Aley
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Motto; Caute non Astute, A Fox passant.
Found in, The General Armory of England, Ireland, Scotland , Wales.
Fairbairn's Crests Family.
Aley
The above is of course a better description of the fox in your illustration although not quite the traditional "passant". Sorry I missed this one when I consulted Fairbairns I used the wrong fox (the running one) when I searched. The only other information is that it is a Scottish crest.
David
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Still looking for more info on this Coat of Arms.
Aley
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Aley,
I sent it off to my Dad last week so I'll let you know what he thinks when he gets a chance to have a look at it. Right now he tells me he's sinking under months of mail!
L
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Hi Louise
I can wait for your Dads thoughts on it.
Aley
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OK, well here's my Dad's reply. I will quote him directly, but the thing he doesn't spell out, but which I discussed with him is that even though the picture is in black & white the way it is shaded does indicate colours.
Here's what he says:
"This is undoubtedly a Ross coat of arms. The arms of the chief of the clan are the white lions on the red shield in the middle and in scottish practice junior descendents have his arms altered by a border of one or other design according to a set of rules which I don't know much about.
Essentially these appear to be the arms of the senior member of the Ross family of Kindace who may or may not exist today. These arms were entered in the Register of Scottish Arms, Vol I, page 405 on which page also appear the arms of Ross of Pilkerie.
The Kindace arms are:
Gules 3 lioncels rampant argentwithin a birdure countercompany of the second(argent) and first(gules). The crest - above the helmet is "a fox passant proper". The motto (missing on yours) is Callte non astute"
In plain English:
Red with 3 little white lions up on their hind legs with a border of 2 rows alternately white and red. The crest is a fox in his natural colours passing by. The motto means, Cautious not treacherous.
I use the word "essentially" because in fact the illustration you sent me has a border alternately red and white (ie it starts with the wrong colour in the first square), which could be an artists mistake or could ba a further variation of the family arms for a younger son.
The laws of heraldry in scotland are quite strict and still capable of legal enforcement under and act of the Scot's Parliament in 1672. Only one person can use any one coat of arms so if a man has more than one son the younger one must take out a new grant of arms. This is commonly done even today."
He then goes on to caution about anyones right to use the arms unless they can prove your the direct descendant of the original owner etc.
He further says,
"There is still a chief of Clan ross using the plain arms of the 3 white lioncels on a red field. He is the senior male descendent of the Earl of Ross who died in mediaeval times and used those arms. Ross of Pilkerie which I mentioned above, is almost identical to Kindace but with border alternately gold and red."
Hope that goes some way to help you understanding what this is. Wouldn't it be great to discover that the finder had the right to use it!
Louise
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Louise,
I thanked you in an email but I wanted to thank you (and your dad) here also. Louise's dad also took a look at a crest from some branch of my family and I appreciate the time he put into it and his response (and hers).
Thanks a lot.
Kath
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The Scottish use of borders to denote relationship to the main line is very complicated. For the first generation.
The eldest son uses a red label until the death of his father. His eldest son using the fathers shield without the label.
The second son a gold bordure (border)
The third son a blue border
The fourth son a red border
The fifth son a black border
These borders are passed as are the following on to their respective eldest sons and so may be repeated in later generations. In the third generation the borders become more complex, being engrailed for the second son of other than the first son, invected for the third son, indented for the fourth son etc. In the fourth generation the border is split in two vertically (per pale) for the second son using the colour for the next son (above) in the sinister half. Thus the second son of the first son of the second son will have a border which is gold in the dexter half and blue in the sinister half, while his brother the third son will be red in the sinister half.
The border used in the shield we are considering would seem to come from an even later generation showing a fairly weak link to the main line. I would guess a line from the second son to the sixth generation where it would be the arms of the second son. That is a fourth cousin of the main line.
The direct line beyond the second generation use the family coat of arms with male siblings using the same brisures as used by the English but usually placed centrally instead of in chief. The second third and fourth children of the eldest son use line variations within the shield which correspond to the border variations of their first cousins mentioned above (engrailed, envicted, indented)
CORRECTED to correct the colours and expand the explanation.
David
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Hi Louise
Could you give your Dad a big Thank You from us and thank you too for the help.
And David, thank you for the info on the Scottish use of borders.
Aley
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3 LOINS rampant ? What a perfectly delightful idea ! (Sadly, no address provided!)
Coral
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Hi,
the enclosed picture is from an application for nobility in 1819 in Finland from Herman Ross, where he claims a descendance from the Rosses of Balnagowan and/or Kindeance/Kindeis. In the application also the Ross of Pitkerrie descendance is mentioned as one possibility. The application did not succeed on those grounds as the genealogic tracing to those Scottish families were not satisfactorily described. He was however nobilised but on his own merits.
In my opinion the colours in the checkered bordings are gold and red, definitely not white and red. I would need to go to the archives again and see again it with fresh eyes and not only from my photograph in order to verify this.
In the application there is no explanation on wherefrom that coat of arms has been obtained. The application only includes the wish of Herman Ross to be granted the right to use the coat of arms of his ancestors, and this picture is an enclosure.
I would highly appreciate any further comments on how to interpret this differented Ross coat of arms.
rostebe
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How interesting.
I see the border of the 1819 is of three lines deep rather than 2 - would this indicate another generation down the line maybe?
I could be wrong, but I always understood that "argent" was silver rather than white?
I wonder again whether the gold colouring with the red in the border and also the lion appear to be gold as well, instead of silver or white, is also indicative of this being of another generation?
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In Scotland the "bordure compony" that is the alternating squares in a single row round the shield is usually reserved to indicate illegitimacy. The triple row may be a difference from a shield originally having a single row or simply a difference incorporated from a "chequy" that chequered shield of an intermarriage.
David
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In colour illustrations silver (correct heraldic term: argent) is generally depicted as white, while gold (correct heraldic term: or) is generally shown as yellow.
Nell
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Hi Aley, I was just sent the same picture by my cousin, I'm also looking for any information available
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The Scottish use of borders to denote relationship to the main line is very complicated. For the first generation.
The eldest son uses a red label until the death of his father. His eldest son using the fathers shield without the label.
The second son a gold bordure (border)
The third son a blue border
The fourth son a red border
The fifth son a black border
These borders are passed as are the following on to their respective eldest sons and so may be repeated in later generations.
Something that many folks appear to have missed in looking at the potential origins of this modified coat is that under the Stodart system of differencing (quoted above), while the fourth son would normally use a red bordure around the paternal arms, you can't place a red bordure on a red field (it would basically disappear visually). Under the Stodart system (of which there's a good explanation, and an illustration, of all this at http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/lordlyon6.htm), as applied to these arms, the fourth son would use a bordure "checky gules and argent", the bordure used on the arms originally posted here.
David