RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Sueh2 on Wednesday 28 February 07 11:36 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm trying to find a couple of deaths so that I can send off for the certificates but having searched the complete indexes can only find people of the right name with ages that are quite a lot out. I wonder whether others have found this on certs they have ordered.
My thinking is that the person who registered a death may not really have known the age of the deceased and made a guess.
What do you think should I pay my money and take a chance?
Sue
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Hi Sue,
How much is "quite a bit out"?
Stan
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Hi Sue
If you wrote direct to the Registry Office where the death took place and gave
them as much detail as you have on the person they would more than likely
let you know if it was the right person before having to pay any cost.
My own Mother's death certificate has a lot of errors on it because the informant
thought her details were as they stated.
Best of luck.
Sandy
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Hi,
By "quite a bit" I mean between 5 and 10 years.
Sue
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Sue- 5 to 10 years is really not that far off when you think of the ages people gave on census records (and they should have known how old they were!).
When I was 17 my grandmother died and I remember her 3 sons giving the information to the registrar for the death certificate, They kept asking me for the answers to the questions and when they got to the question 'where was her father born?' I was finally put on the phone. I said 'Liverpool' because I knew his parents had lived there. A few years later I discovered his parents had only moved to Liverpool when he was ten years old and was annoyed I'd given the wrong information. However, more recently I found that my great-grandfather was probably born in Liverpool (at a relatives' house)! Goodness knows who is listed as the informant for my grandmother's death certificate since there were so many of us on the phone that day.
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Do you have the birth certificates for the people in question - I suspect from what you say that you don't. Perhaps because they were born pre 1837? So the estimates of age are based on census information? - which can be misleading.
My thinking is that the person who registered a death may not really have known the age of the deceased and made a guess.
Very true! If the person was good at hiding their real age during their life-time, it's no wonder if the informant gets it wrong. The person most likely to know the truth is the one who has died! One of my 3 x gt grandmother's was most unreliable with her age. She was never 9/10 years older with each passing census and by the time she died she was allegedly older than all previous estimates of actual age by about 5 years!
I think Sandy's approach is a good idea.
Nell
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From "The Times" 21 Jan 1911.
"The Disclosure of Age"
'That is the point where trouble generally arises, if trouble there is. Women who are no longer very young and not yet very old have a traditional and unconquerable objection to saying exactly how old they are. One curious result is that the number of women who return themselves as aged from 20 to 25 exceeds at every Census the number of girls returned as from 10 to 15 at the previous Census.
Stan
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Thanks for that snippet Stan......made me smile and think about those boxes you get to tick on forms. You know the ones AGE 20-25, 25-35 etc and as you pass another birthday you suddenly realise that next time you fill out a form you'll be ticking the next box!! But I'm not saying which one.
Sue
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This could even happen today. I knew of a lady who according to her medical records and her son, was only about 75 when she died in 1998. In fact it turned out she was over 10 years older than that which was not found out until her son found her birth certificate! The funniest thing was that her son was aged about 68, but it hadn't occurre to him that his mother couldn't be only 7 years older than he was.
Liz
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My gt grandmother reduced a few years from her age during her second marriage.
If he had give age at death, it would presumably been wrong.
Is somoen is a lodger or staying with e.g. nieces, or such a person reports death, they may have little idea of the real age.
I have two or three times seen people with the same age at 2 successive censuses, so would never be surprised
Bob
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I have one woman who lowered her age on the marriage cert by 7 years as her husband to be was 10 years younger than her.
Also another one who on 4 consecutive census returns was aged 39, 39, 45, 47, but it was definitely the same person!!
Don't they make our lives interesting....
Bren
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I have one woman who lowered her age on the marriage cert by 7 years as her husband to be was 10 years younger than her.
The menfolk do it too. I take all ages 'with a pinch of salt'! Have just done the research on a certain chap who was born anytime from 1861 (death cert) to 1873 (marriage cert) - eventually found his birth cert 1864 :)
Barbara
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I have a problem finding my g.grandfather, as lots of people will know by now! On the 1891 census he is 31 but on the 1901 census he is 43. Now, from the death certificate and family knowledge, I know my g.gran was actually 49 in 1891 when she said she was 42, so why would g.grandad make himself seem even younger than he perhaps was. Anyone would think that to make the "marriage" if there was one seem more respectable, he would have made himself older to be nearer to g.gran in age.
If he had been 31 in 1891 he would only have been 24 when my gran was born and his 'wife' 42. Some undertaking for a young fisherman. One of the reasons I can't find him is that I have no idea of even his year of birth.
Liz
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Well I think I'll just go for it and order a couple of certs. I do think that as people got old they added on years and were perceived as "very old" so when it came to registering deaths the age given to the registrar was a best guess. Also old people can get muddled and not know themselves their true age.
These days we are so much more aware of the ages of our elderly relatives because it has become the fashion to celebrate in style milestone birthdays ie 70, 80,90, but our ancestors I'm sure did not celebrate in quite the same way.
Sue
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Just a couple of brief points ...
The informant on the death certificate may or may not have know the correct or accurate information about the deceased individual. The individual who wrote up the death cert may have "mis heard" or just wrote down the wrong information.
Ages were not that important. I have several relatives who got younger in later census years.
yn9man
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I have several relatives who got younger in later census years.
yn9man
What a pity we can't get away with it now, too many people know our real ages :D
Bar
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What a pity we can't get away with it now, too many people know our real ages :D
Bar
Age is only a state of mine .... as long as you have your mind you can be whatever age you choose.... ;) ;)
yn9man
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Oh, I'm still 18 on the inside, have been for a few years now ::)
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My family tend to "forget" birthdays once a certain age is reached - used to be 21 it's probably down to 18 now. It's not surprising that death ages can be wrong, I've got my wifes grandfathers d/cert (informant his son) and the date of birth is given together with location but I've been unable to trace a birth cert and other members of the family think he was born elsewhere ???
Also, in the past, people died in the workhouse so the informant probably didn't know the correct age, only what they'd been told.
Tim
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Hi Tim,
have you posted the details so we can help you look for him?
Barbara
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Barbara,
It was a slightly unfair example because he was believed to be adopted, in 1900, one family legend is that he was the son of a Roman Catholic priest ;), another that he came from the Isle of Man (surname Kelly ;D ) I'll dig out what I know when I'm back on that branch.
Tim
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Women who are no longer very young and not yet very old have a traditional and unconquerable objection to saying exactly how old they are. One curious result is that the number of women who return themselves as aged from 20 to 25 exceeds at every Census the number of girls returned as from 10 to 15 at the previous Census.
Stan
Reminds me of some of the profiles on this site :)
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My g.g.grandfather was born in 1846 and died in 1903 however his wife who registered the death, said he was 49 yrs old ;D
As he was 6 years older than g.g.grandmother I suppose she must have just guessed his age as I don't think it would have been a case of knocking a few years off his age. Funny thing for the last three census records he only aged by about 6 or 7 years, haven't worked that one out yet as his children aged the usual 10 years ;D ;D
Jean
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Jean, That is a commonly used device to equalise age differences over a census or two. My grandparents married in 1894, His age was given as 55, hers as 35. Hers was correct, his dob was 1828 or earlier making him at least 66 and probably a little older still. :)
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Well, all I'm telling you is that at my last birthday I removed 5 years from my age and announced my intention never to get any older than that (as long as I can get away with it, that is ;) )
I've convinced myself now. When the opthalmologist recently asked how old I was, I had to think really hard.
I'd not be a good informant for my own certificate ::)
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In "Life with the Lyons" Mother played by Bebe Daniels was always 32. In one episode her own mother appeared, also 32! At least 2 British MPs that I know of have been economical with the facts as to their own ages, one is actually getting younger, while the other is static.