RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: LucyLu82 on Thursday 01 March 07 09:08 GMT (UK)
-
I'm looking for any Bachellier's, originally from SW France 1650 ish and from after that Bethnal Green
ANy info greatly appreciated
-
Lucy - can you tell us what you know already in terms of census/IGI data etc?
-
Hi Lucy
Ive found 3 marriages on Boyds if it helps,
1706 Paul Bachellier - Esther Saumon
Westminster (Spring Gardens Huguenot) Middlesex
1742 Paul Bachellier - Mary Finett
Stepney (St Dunstan) Middlesex
1753 Nic Bachellier - Marie Bunouf
Westminster (Spring Gardens Huguenot) Middlesex
Regards Alison.
-
Simply entering Bachellier in Ancestry.co.uk brought up a large number for the name .
Meliora
-
Am delving deeper and deeper. i only started this morning. have discovered grandfathers mother and father i think-Selina and Albert and his parents Thomas and Mary. However, can not find anything other than death cert for my grandfather. So, far Albert has 2 sons, Albert Edward and Leslie W. But no record of Leonard-my grandfather. Maybe I'm not on the right track
Thank u for your kind help
-
Is your grandfather Leonard Victor Bachellier born Bethnal Green 14 July 1912, mother's maiden name Gigg (Bethnal Green1c 334 Q3 1912 )? If so you'll have to wait some years to see him in the 1921 census (we haven't got open access to 1911 yet!).
Other Bachellier's born 1901-1920 (all I have time to search for just now):
Bachellier Arthur Bethnal Green 1c 110 Q4 1906
Bachellier Edwin William Bethnal Green1c 137 Q4 1908
Bachellier Ernest R Woolwich 1d 170 Q2 1911
Bachellier John Bethnal Green 1c 155 Q2 1905
Bachellier Leslie Walter Poplar 1c 550 Q4 1902
Bachellier Mary Ellen Bethnal Green 1c 136 Q4 1909
Bachellier Rose Bethnal Green 1c 134 Q3 1903
Bachellier Samuel Bethnal Green1c 136 Q4 1901
-
Lucy there's a huge amount of information on the LDS site - a lady in Australia has clearly done a lot of work researching the Bethnal Green Bachelliers and has submitted a pedigree resource file.
http://www.familysearch.org
-
Hi Lucy,
If you go to www.automatedgenealogy.com (free site) you will see that Albert, Selina and the two boys are living in Quebec for the 1911 Canadian Census. They list their year of immigration as 1911, so they must have just come for a bit then went back to England when your grandfather Leonard was born in 1912.
Karen
-
Hi Lucy,
Just to let you know that I have a Paul Bachelier in my tree married to Marie Magdelaine Finet in 1742, Stepney. My family line, on my mother's side, follows down from their youngest daughter Elisabeth Bachelier who married a Gilbert Goullee in 1777. Unfortunately I couldn't get back any further than Paul's parents, Paul and Ester.
Good luck,
Val
-
Hi Val
I have Paul's parents as Nicholas Bachelier 1645 born Villeparisis, Eure et Loir, France. His mother was Marie Rossignol 1650 born also in Villeparisis, Eure et Loir, France. I don't have parents listed for Esther Saumon yet. My Bacheliers are spelt with one L.
I hope this is of help
MabelLucy
-
Hi Lucy,
That's strange as I definitely have Paul's parents as Paul Bachellier from Paris and Esther Saumon from London. The son Paul married Marie Madelaine Finet on 29/5/1742 and my line is from their daughter Elizabeth who married Gilbert Goullee.
However, there is another Paul Bachellier b. 1709 who married a Marianne Gaucheron, so perhaps that is your Paul who had a father Nicholas and my Paul's father was his brother also called Paul.
I haven't looked at what I call my French Connection for a few years so am a bit rusty but if you come across Gilbert Goullee on your travels, please let me know. I still can't find his parents.
Good luck
Val
-
Hi Val
You said in your previous post that you couldn't get any further back from Paul and Esther. Paul (who was married to Esther) had a father called Nicholas Bachellier and his wife was Marie Rossignol. I don't have Esther's parents recorded but may have them in my papers somewhere. As we know Paul also had a son called Paul, which is the one you are talking about. I also have the other Paul (married to Marianne Gaucheron) on my tree.
I was just trying to help by getting you one generation further back with Nicholas and Marie. I hope this is a bit clearer this time.
MabelLucy
-
Hello Val and Mabel Lucy,
Esther was born in Canterbury, on 8 April 1682 and was christened at the Walloon or Strangers Church there 16 April 1682. Her parents were Antoine Saumon and Marie Godran.
Nicholas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol were from Villeparisis, just outside Paris. They used the Huguenot temple at Charenton, and fled to London not long after it was demolished by Royal Decree in Nov 1685.
I am decended from Judith Bachelier who married Antoine Deverdun 1704 in Stepney. She is sometimes put down as a child to Nicolas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol, and certainly she named a son Nicolas, and members of the Saumon family stood as godparents to her children, so a relationship existed.
However, unlike the other children of Nicolas, absolutely no evidence exists to her being in London before 1704, and she gives her own birth place as Meaux rather than Villeparisis. A Jean Bachelier and Judith his wife came to England from Harleem Holland in Aug 1701. Antoine Deverdun also came from Haarlem Holland around the same time, and many of the couples who later stand as godparents to their children did so too. So I think perhaps more likely she was actually a daughter to this Jean and Judith, and Nicolas and Marie were extended relations, perhaps Uncle/Aunt.
Re tracing the family further back, to do so would require examining the Charenton Huguenot Temple records. As I understand it these are in private hands in France, and the one researcher who I found with access willing to do research quoted hundreds for just a 'look up', and much more for a full research. So my own research remains frustratingly stalled at that!
Regards
Richard
-
Hi Lucy,
That's strange as I definitely have Paul's parents as Paul Bachellier from Paris and Esther Saumon from London. The son Paul married Marie Madelaine Finet on 29/5/1742 and my line is from their daughter Elizabeth who married Gilbert Goullee.
However, there is another Paul Bachellier b. 1709 who married a Marianne Gaucheron, so perhaps that is your Paul who had a father Nicholas and my Paul's father was his brother also called Paul.
I haven't looked at what I call my French Connection for a few years so am a bit rusty but if you come across Gilbert Goullee on your travels, please let me know. I still can't find his parents.
Good luck
Val
Val
Gilbert Goulle applied to the French Hospital July 1, 1837 age given as 82, and his ancestors as being refugees from Normandy. He was baptised 27 Mar 1734 at St Dunstans Stepney eldest child to Pierre/Peter Goulle and Marie his wife. Pierre was the son of Timothee Goullee who left Normandy as a refugee sometime between 1683-88, going first to Holland, before coming to England from there in 1698, joining the Threadneedle Street Church with a Testimonial from the Huguenot congregation of Amsterdam on 11 September of that year.
-
Hi Richarde,
Thanks a lot for adding that information on Gilbert. I did find that French Hospital report in 1837 which gave his age as 82 which fits in with the census returns making his birth year around 1754/55. However, Peter and Mary's son Gilbert was baptised in 1734 so we have a 20 yr discrepancy. This is why I never thought it was the same Gilbert although it's not a name that appears very frequently in any of the records.
Do you have any ideas on that?
Thanks for your time,
Val
-
Hi Lucy,
Thanks for clarifying that - I said I was rusty but more than I thought!
Val
-
Hi Richarde
Thanks so much for all that fascinating information about our shared ancestors. I too am descended from your Judith who I have recorded as having been born in Meaux and who is listed as Basley with Bachelier in brackets (I'm not sure if that was her maiden name or if that is a derivative of Bachelier). Mary Deverdun was the daughter of Thimotee and Susanne Bachelier and she married the mysterious Samuel Feecham, but you will know all that anyway. I am beginning to wonder if he (Samuel) did indeed come over from America and marry Mary as seems to be recorded on some American family trees. Other Feechams I have been in touch with seem to have concluded that the name was Fauchamp but I don't know the basis of that belief.
I have Anthoine as having been born in St Quentin, Picardy, France 1684 - death Bethnal Green 1762.
The info you gave Val and I about the Charenton Huguenot Temple records is fascinating as well. It must be very frustrating for you not to be able to get any further back, when you know where all that knowledge is stored.
One further question for you - do you have Andre Du Verdun 1655 -1731 as the father of Anthoine Deverdun and if so do you know where he came from and do you have any parents or a wife for him?
All family trees I have seen for this family seem to come to a halt at Andre, so I suspect your answer will be no - but no harm in asking.
I do really appreciate your help.
Many thanks
MabelLucy
-
Hi Mabel Lucy
Judiths surname was recorded as Basly on the marriage at St Dunstans Stepney, but I tend to think this was just a mistake by the English clerk attempting to record the unfamiliar French surnames he was hearing. Very common at the time.
I have seen trees floating about with Andre as Anthoine's father, but I have never seen any evidence of that, and think it might have been wishful thinking. Andre and Anthoine certainly arrive in England around same time summer/autumn 1702. Andre was a master weaver and belonged to the London Weavers company. I'm more inclined to think he and Anthoine were brothers, they both married soon after arriving in England and stand as godparents to eachothers children, which seems more like brothers to me. Andre's death and burial in 1731 does not record an age for him, and I have not found his age given anywhere, so again I think the 1665 d.o.b for him is likely a bit of creative guess work by somebody to try and make things 'fit' their prefered scenario.
I have examined the existant records of the Huguenot Temple in St Quentin and unfortunately found no trace of the De Verduns (the records are though very incomplete and fragmentery). They were in Haarlem Holland before London, so the records of the Waals Kerk there may yet provide info on them, I have not yet had opportunity to properly examine these.
Nice to meet a new cousin on this line BTW!
Regards
Richard
-
Hi Richarde,
Thanks a lot for adding that information on Gilbert. I did find that French Hospital report in 1837 which gave his age as 82 which fits in with the census returns making his birth year around 1754/55. However, Peter and Mary's son Gilbert was baptised in 1734 so we have a 20 yr discrepancy. This is why I never thought it was the same Gilbert although it's not a name that appears very frequently in any of the records.
Do you have any ideas on that?
Thanks for your time,
Val
Hi Val
Quite right I'd not noticed the age descrepancy..see the problem. I'll have a further look and let you know if I find anything.
-
"The info you gave Val and I about the Charenton Huguenot Temple records is fascinating as well. It must be very frustrating for you not to be able to get any further back, when you know where all that knowledge is stored."
Re that Mabel Lucy, yes is frustrating. He said the Huguenot Charenton records did contain over 60 Bachelier marriages and the same baptisms, so the answers are no doubt there to be found. The Bacheliers of Meaux were among the earliest followers of the reformed faith in France, in fact Meaux was where the faith was first established in France. A Bachelier, possibly a relation of ours, was head of the congregation there when an attempt was made to kidnap the Dauphin in the French Religious Wars, an event which contributed to the St Bartholomews Day Massacre. There's signs of an interesting story for us there waiting to be dug up in detail one day.
-
Hi Richarde
It's been quite a while, but here I am again. I'm now struggling with Judith Bachelier, married to Anthoine Deverdun, your's and my ancester (my 6 x great grandmother). I know you wrote that you thought she might have come to England via Haarlem, Holland fro Meaux and that Anthoine came via Haarlem. You thought she might possibly be the daughter of a Jean Bachelier and Judith his wife, who also came via Haarlem.
I have a problem in that I have some recorded notes from the Hackney Union Workhouse Archive (unfortunately not complete as I copied them in a hurry from those that my cousin had when I visited her place in England two years ago). The notes refer to James Feecham - son of Samuel Feecham and Mary Deverdun, who was in turn the daughter of Susanna Bachelier and Timothy Deverdun - son of Anthoine Deverdun and Judith Bachelier. The notes, however are typewritten so easy to understand. James was applying for admittance to the workhouse. It is recorded as follows:
" James Feecham, unmarried, son of Samuel Feecham of Woods Close aforesaid; iii. On mother's side, whose Great Grandfather was a French Refugee from Normandy in France - left a great deal of property thereof. His Great Grandmother was very young at that time, was in the family way with his Grandmother. His Great Grandfather's name was Samuel Bachellier. His Grandmother married a Mr Diverdine a French man, they both had French Committee money and their son Timothy Diverdine (his uncle) was deaf and dumb and received both his father and mother's money as long as he lived".
As you see, this doesn't quite fit in with the family tree I presently have, as I have Susanna's parents as Paul Bachelier (1680) and Marianne Gaucheron (his second wife, the first bing Esther Saumon). That makes Paul Bachellier his great grandfather - not Samuel Bachelier as written above. I know you will be interested in this as it is your history as well. If you have any thoughts on it I would love to hear them.
Many thanks
Jenny
-
Hi Jenny,
I hope you don't mind me contacting you only I received an e-mail from Roots with the message you sent to Richarde, as it was in connection with the Bachellier family in which I had registered my interest.
I haven't played around with my 'French Connection' for a while so had to read up on it again and was interested to read that Paul Bachellier married a second time to Marianne Gaucheron. I had always wondered how she fitted in. Also, there seems to be 2 Paul births registered to them, 1709 and 1711 - have you assumed this was a clerical error? I take it the mother of Paul (above) and Marie 1713 was Esther, and the other 9 or 10 were Marianne's.
I am directly descended from Paul 1711 who married Marie Magdelaine Finet on 29/5/1742, 7th child down Elisabeth Ann b. 6/10/1754. She married Gilbert Goullee 5/11/1777 and I have been mostly interested in the Goullee family of which there are hundreds, probably the same for the Bachelliers. Do you happen to have come across Gilbert on your travels through the records as I have had a real problem establishing a baptism for him. I think his grandparents were Pierre (Peter) Goullee (his father Timothee - refugee from Normandy) and Marie (Mary) Gilbert, and his parents were Gilbert and Frances ?.
I look forward to hearing from you even if you can't help - it's always worth a try.
Best wishes
Val White
-
Hi Val
Nice to hear from you. I have Gilbert on my tree and I have one extra wife besides Elizabeth (Mary Rising - married 15 May 1814 at St Giles without Cripplegate) and another lady (Hannah Leech) with whom he had banns read on 10 April 1814 at St George the Matyr, Southwark. Unless there were two Gilbert Goullees around that area at the beginning of 1814, he sure was a busy boy! Elizabeth's death date is January 1814!! He was listed as a widower for both ladies and they were listed as widows. You may well know about those, or I may have it wrong and he may not be the only Gilbert Goullee of that age around at that time. I have realised that his probable father was Gilbert as well, so it could well have been him that was connected to one or other of these women. I'll try and do a bit more detective work.
I haven't been able to find anything else for him, but I didn't know his parents' names or grandparent. I doubt I will be able to find anything if you can't, but will keep looking and certainly let you know if I come across anything.
I sorted out the Esther Saumon/Marianne Gaucheron plus the two Pauls problems with the help of someone I came across from the same family. It certainly makes sense that that is where Marianne fits in. I have the two Pauls and Maria as the children of Esther - the rest are Marianne's. The first Paul (1709) is thought to have died about 1710. That leaves Paul 1711, who married Mary Finet.
That all makes sense as well and has set to rest a troublesome mystery with regards all those Pauls and what to do about the two wives. All I have to resolve now is the ongoing problem of Judith Bachelier's parentage (mentioned before here) and man of mystery Samuel Feecham - my grandmother wrote that the French family name was FeChamp - which ties in with Feecham, but I can't find any FeChamps around at that time (Samuel was a weaver so it probably follows he was Huguenot as he was connected with them and married one of the Deverduns). My grandmother went to the French Brothers School, 233 Shaftsbury Avenue when she was 10 until she was 16. If you come across anything that may be connected I would be grateful for your input.
Best wishes to you also
Jenny Young
-
Hello Jenny
Apologies for the slight delay in getting back to you, been away over the weekend.
There does indeed seem to be question marks over the the parentage of both Judith and Susanne Bachelier.
Susanne's marriage to Timothy Deverdun at Saint Dunstan, Stepney 23 July 1749, does not give any possible indication of her parentage. However Susanne Bachelier, the daughter of Paul Bachelier and Marie Gaucheron, baptised 13 August 1727 at Threadneedle Street, would seem the only obvious candidate to be her, and this seems to be given some weight by Paul Bachelier appearing as the godfather to the only child the couple themselves had baptised at Threadneedle Street, their second daughter Susanne Deverdun in 1753.
However as you rightly point out when the couple's grandson James Feecham applied to the French Hospital London in 1856, he gave the following, rather different, account of his descent:
On Mother's side, whos[e] Great Grandfather was a French Refugee from Normandy in France -Left a great deal of property thereof. His Great Grand Mother was very young at that time was in tha Family way with his Grand Mother. His Great Grand Father's name was Samuel Bachellier. His Grand Mother married a Mr. Diverdine, a French Man, they both had French
Committee Money and their Son Timothy Diverdine (his Uncle) was Deaf and Dumb and received both his Father and Mother's Money as long as he lived. He died the 12th of March 1813 and his aunt Susan Hollett had the Cocoa (Coqueau) money and the money from the French Church every Christmas. She died November 1847 and his mother's name was Mary Diverdine who married a Mr. Samuel Feecham. She died April 6 1829.
This seems to be the same account later fowarded to the Hackney Union, when he was transferred from the Hospital to the Workhouse.
Incidently a year earlier another grandchild of the couple, James's first cousin, Susanna Reynolds, (daughter of Peter Hollet and Susanne Deverdun, born 1778 Wheelers Street, Spitalfields) had also applied to the French Hospital giving a similar account:
[French Decent] On Mother's side who was a Daughter of Timothy Diverdine who married Susan Bachelier, which Susan Bachelier came from Normandy in France with her Father (my Great Grandfather) when she was 2 years of age.
These accounts then seem to have been copied over and again for later family members own subsequent applications to the French Hospital.
The problem I have with these accounts are they suggest Susanne was born in France and came to England with her father, Samuel, in what would have been around approximately 1730. I can find no evidence whatsoever of any Bachelier's coming to London from France at this sort of date, or indeed, a Samuel Bachelier coming from France at ANY date.
This raises the question of just how reliable the grandchildren's accounts are?
It must be taken into account that they appear to have been made from memory, in old age, and wern't supported by any documentation in either petition. James did not even give his own account himself, his application notes "Petitioner labours under an impediment of speech and in appearance seems helpless - was attended by his Sister when he presented". Susanna also states the family was from Normandy, but all other accounts trace them from the Paris outskirts and Picardy, so that, at least, would appear to be a mistake. Also it seems unlikely either ever met the grandmother in question, she almost certainly died before both were born. I do not have an exact date, for this, but she had her last child 1761, and her husband Timothy was having children with his second wife Elizabeth Cooley from at least 1774, (who he eventually married in 1789 two years before his own death, being noted as a widower at time of the ceremony).
I wonder if in fact the identification of 'Samuel' Bachelier is just then a simple mistake, especially as the name was so prominent on their Feecham side?
Also they were of course both great-grandchildren of Judith Bachelier, their grandfather Timothy Deverdun's mother. She was born about 1683, and did likely flee France (whoever her parents ultimately were) at the time the Charenton Huguenot Temple was destroyed, Nov 1685, when she was indeed two years of age. Therefore I rather suspect the grandchildren have unwittingly meshed together the details told to them, by their respective parents, of their Bachelier great grandmother (Judith), and Bachelier grandmother (Susanne), into one tale, common enough in family lore passed down orally, and perhaps understandable as they had same surname, and they would never have met either, both having died well before their births. Can't be certain that is the case of course, but it seems quite plausible.
Regards
Richard
-
Hi again Jenny
Just realised I had neglected half your query, ie. in regards Judith Bachelier.
I am not 100% of her parentage yet either, but more certain than I once was.
I do not think she was a daughter of Nicolas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol. That couple certainly fled direct from France to England after the Charenton Temple's destruction in late 1685, and in the first year alone in England 1686, they appear in the charity records of the Threadneedle Street Church serveral times, including one instance where Nicolas claims for himself, wife and three children. Unfortunately the children are not named in the document, but if the numbers are accurate, this alone seems to rule out Judith as a a daughter as his three children are accounted for in later records:
Nicolas Bachelier Jr (born France circa 1674) married Madelaine Deshayes London 1697
Marie Magdeliane Bachelier (born France circa 1679) married Abraham Pottier London 1701 rem Paul Boucher 1721
Paul Bachelier (born France circa 1680) married Esther Saumon London 1706, remarried to Marie Gaucheron 1725
After arrival the family seemed to almost exclusively use the Threadneedle Street Church London, Nicolas, his wife, and all three of his children appearing as godparents there on ten occasions between 1687-1701. (There is just one exception in 1697 when Nicolas stands as a godparent at the smaller St Jeans Chapel in Spitalfields.) It would seem strange Judith not appearing if she were indeed part of that immediate family.
In addition Nicolas's children, at marriage, where they do state place of origin, always give Villeparisis or Paris, never Meaux en Brie. On the only known occasion Judith gave her own place of origin (Son Timonthy's baptism 1729) she gives Meaux en Brie.
The couple I instead favour for her parents, Jean and Judith Bachelier, arrived in London in the summer of 1701, joining the same Threadneedle Street church used by Nicolas and family on 31 August that year. They had a testimonial of faith from the Huguenot congregation at the Waals Kirk Haarlem.
Exactly a month to the day later Nicolas's daughter Marie Magdelaine Bachelier got married at the Threadneedle Street Church, however, perhaps significantly, six days before this she also publicly announced her intention to marry at La Patente Huguenot Chapel, Spitalfields:
1701. 25 Sep
POTTIER & BACHELLIER
Abraham Pottier, weaver, residing in Ouyle (Wheeler) Street, Stepney, born of Nanteuil, Meaux en Brie, Son of Abraham Potier and the deceased Magdelaine Cadet, - and Marie Madelaine Bachelier, born of Paris, and daughter of Nicolas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol; together announce their intention to be married publically in the Church of Stepney, in unity, and without opposition.
Statement witnessed and signed by: J.Bachelier, N.Bachelier, Paul Bachelier, Marie Rossignol, Pierre Nepueu, Jacob Pottier, Jean Robert, Louis Robert.
Minister: Balguerie
This is the first time the Bacheliers are on record as ever using this chapel, and the first time a 'J.Bachelier' ever appears on any London records. This must surely then be Jean Bachelier who had joined Threadneedle street a few weeks earlier?
Also this is the same chapel Judith Bachelier uses to baptise her children to Antoine Deverdun 1705-1729. I suspect then the J is likely Jean Bachelier, and he is Judith's father, and that the family joined this congregation on their arrival in 1701 as well as Threadneedle Street which their relatives Nicolas and family were already using.
This would neatly explain why Judith Bachelier/Deverdun calls a child Nicolas, and why Marie Bachelier and Marie Saumon, Esther Saumon/Bachelier's sister, appear as godparents to her and Antoine's children at La Patente.
To add weight to this Jean and Judith appear on the 1709 Royal Bounty accounts and the following info is giving for them:
Jean Bachelier, 52, of Meaux en Brie, Weaver, and Judith his wife, 65, residing at Pheonix Street, Spitalfields were paid 15 shillings.
This would make them 26 and 39 respectively at about the time Judith was born in France circa 1683, and of course the place of origin matches exactly with that Judith gives, unlike Nicolas and Marie Bachelier. Also, Antoine Deverdun and Judith Bachelier's daughter Elizabeth Deverdun/Mourgue recorded her adress in 1763 as the exact same place Pheonix Street, Spitalfields. Could be pure coincidence but worth mentioning none the less.
Again lacks concrete proof, but particularly in light of the fact Antoine Deverdun also came to London from Haarlem at this same time, 1701-3, as did most of the other families who act as godparents to their children and use La patente with them, hopefully you'll agree a good case can be made all the same, again not certain, but very plausible scenario.
Regards
Richard
-
Hi Jenny and Richard,
I hope you don't mind me joining in your discussions on the Bachelliers etc. - I had forgotton how fascinating it was when I was researching my line which is as above, Paul b. 1711 who married Marie Magdelaine Finet. I only wanted to mention, and you probably are already aware, that most of the Ancestry Tree Members think that Judith was the dau. of Nicholas Bachellier and Marie Rossignol. One of them lists 6 children as follows:-
Daniel b. 1/11/1672 Nanteuil, Les Meaux, Jean 10/7/1674 Ville Parisis, Nicholas 10/7/1674 - 1739 (twins or an error) VP, Marie Magdelaine 1679 VP, Paul 1680 VP, Judith 1683 VP.
Also, Richard, I don't think I've come across anyone who has so much information on this family as you do, I really am impressed, so don't think me cheeky if I ask if you have come across my 'brick wall', Gilbert Goullee, who married Elizabeth Ann Bachellier, dau. of Paul and Marie. They married on 5/11/1777 and I believe Gilbert was the son of Gilbert Goullee and Frances ?, his first wife, after she died he married Eleanor Terrerre on 23/2/1780. I also think that his parents were Pierre Goullee and Marie (Mary) Gilbert who married on 15/5/1733, Fleet Prison and Rules of the Prison, his father Timothe from Normandy. My problem is that I can't find a baptism for my Gilbert (1754 ish) although I have traced him through all his life. If you have any ideas, I would be more than grateful and I know Jenny, you said you would look out for him as well.
Thanks very much and kind regards,
Val
-
Hello Val
Please feel free to join in. Your additional information on the Bacheliers is most interesting. I am always a bit wary of Ancestry trees, but the birth dates and the two additional elder sons for Nicolas and Marie does suggest their might be something in their info, it would be interesting to know their source on those.
Unfortunately in regards Gilbert Goulee born circa 1754 still unable to find anymore than my previous posts to this thread, he seems a real mystery man, I can find no trace of his baptism at all, though of course he appears in old age as a French Hospital applicant. It does seem strange.
Regards
Richard
-
Hi Richarde,
Thank you for the welcome and I found that information under the Member name of 'My Family Tree' - Owner: starflyergirl. I clicked on 'Show siblings'. I agree, it would be interesting to learn where he/she obtained those details.
I appreciate you having another look for Gilbert - it is so annoying to think that is the one link I can't find and so important as well to the Normandy connection. I just wondered if having access to the French Hospital records where so much information was held, there was some mention of his baptism as was the case with other Goullees of the same family. All his siblings have some sort of record, albeit the name was corrupted more often than not, why not him? Oh well, one day perhaps!
Nice to have your contact anyway,
best wishes
Val
-
Hello Val
I think looking at his record (Gilberts) the problem is he was never actually an inmate of the French Hospital, rather a group of nine local people just sent a short petition for him to be considered as a possible applicant giving just bare bones information of his case, but for some reason it never went any further than that. Had he gone through the official registration process and/or become an inmate the file would have contained greater information, including usually documentation, enclosures such as baptism, parents wedding, etc and anything else he could supply to verify who he was and his credentials as a genuine Huguenot decendant qualifying for relief from the institution. Unfortunately this never happened, why it does not state, though at 82 and in poor health, the obvious thought is he may have sadly died before things got any further along than that initial step.
Regards
Richard
-
Hi Rcharde
I'm sorry I've been so long with this, but I work very long hours and have to travel as well Monday through Thursday, so I don't get much of a chance for this sort of thing until Friday. Thanks so much for your very long and detailed responses to my questions. Like Val I am amazed by your knowledge of the family and the Huguenots. Your logical thinking sorted out the hazy mess in my mind regarding our mutual ancesters and it all makes much more sense now. I had suspected myself that it might be a case of mistaken memory and a simple case of wrong name (Samuel). Also I can see that it also could be the family story getting currupted (a la Chinese whispers) as it was used for admittance to the French Hospital etc for one family member after another.
Also I like your ideas on Judith - it sounds very feasible that Jean and Judith were Judith's parents. It is good to have possibe answers to these knotty problems. I think I might have to invest in some of the French Hospital CDs one of these days - they must make interesting reading.
Once again thankyou for your very well thought out answers to my questions. No doubt something else will pop up to bother me in the future and I will, in turn, have to bother you again.
Many thanks
Jenny
-
Hi Richarde,
Hope this is not a bother for you but I'm afraid I am in need of your expertise again. I have come across this baptism record on Ancestry for a Gribert (this should read Gilbert) Goulden, this seems to have been correctly transcribed. The problem is that every detail apart from the surname (the all important factor I know) fits my Gilbert i.e. baptised 5/5/1756 St. Matthew Bethnal Green, parents Gilbert (a Weaver) and Frances. My Gilbert and Frances had 9 children, and 8 were baptised so I am convinced that Gilbert would have been as well but his record has obviously been the victim of clerical error somewhere along the line. I know this entry is from the parish records and am wondering whether it could have been entered incorrectly but I believe there was another source also which maybe I could check it against. Is it the Bishops' Transcripts and if so, do you have any idea how I could access them please?
I would really appreciate any help you can offer.
Val
-
Hi Val
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-dl_3-2&cid=1-1#1-1
The St Matthews Bishops Transcripts are held at the London Metropolitan Archives, same place as the originals of the parish registers.
I agree I'd be inclined to think Gilbert Goulden is your man if all the other info fits. The original register may have been recopied at some point into another ledger, and misread, though even if not, its quite usual to find these Huguenot surnames spelt a variety of ways in the English registers. At that point 1750's the Huguenot community was still fairly self contained and many of them were not English speakers, so there was a language barrier between them and the Anglican parich clerks. Earlier in the thread this was referred to with Judith Bachelier, who was recorded as Judith 'Basley'. I imagine the clerk though he heard Bach-A-LEY as Bas-A-LEY. Shows how easy these mistakes crept in. I have seen even weirder examples than that whilst researching these East End French families!
Regards
Richard
-
All I have to resolve now is the ongoing problem of man of mystery Samuel Feecham - my grandmother wrote that the French family name was FeChamp - which ties in with Feecham, but I can't find any FeChamps around at that time (Samuel was a weaver so it probably follows he was Huguenot as he was connected with them and married one of the Deverduns).
Hello again Jenny
I have had a look at your mystery man Samuel Feecham.
His burial records his surname as 'Peacham'
12th November 1820 St Matthew Bethnal Green " Samuel Peacham, aged 63 of Woods' Close"
This is definitely him as we know this was the family adress, from his son James Feecham, who gave for his date and place of birth in his 1850's French Hospital petition as "January 6th, 1799, Wood's Close, Bethnal Green"
This then is almost certainly Samuel's baptism spelt similarly:
9th August 1752 St Mary Whitechapel "Samuel Peacham, son of Ambrose and Elizabeth Peacham, Bell Yard"
To confirm this the couple had a n elder son John baptised at same church a few years previous and did spell their name 'Feacham'
This variability of spelling was noted as late as the late 19th century by the French Hospital who remarked that due to illiteracy the family had spelt the surname three different ways Feecham/Feacham/Fetcham on the same single petition.
Samuel's father Ambrose does seem to have been baptised as "Fetcham":
Baptised 9th August 1719 St Leonard Shoreditch, Middlesex "Ambrose Fetcham son of Ambrose Fetcham of Hollywell Lane"
I see Valda had already found much of this info in a previous thread here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,518666.msg3741094.html#msg3741094
I cannot find a baptism for Samuel's grandfather Ambrose Fetcham in London, though presumably he would have been born circa 1680-1700. It may well be he moved from elsewhere in England to find work in the East London weaving trade. (There is an 'Ambros Feachom, son of John Feachom', baptised 8 July 1689, Romsey, Hampshire which could well be him). I am fairly satisfied he was not Huguenot. There was just as many natives working in the industry as French at the time, and this also fits with all my prior research which as a general rule at this time saw the French weavers clustered in and around Spitalfields and Bethnal Green, whilst the English weavers tended to live together particularly in Hollywell Lane, and New Inn Yard in Shoreditch and the surrounding courts.
Nevertheless, I double checked anyway and no sign of Ambrose in the French churches, or even the surname (or any possible French deriviates such as FeChamp or Feauchamp) in use amongst the Huguenot refugees in London, who were fairly well documented at every turn by the support and church systems set up for them here and external sources such as the Royal Bounty records.
Certainly by the time Mary Deverdun married Samuel Feecham 1777, the French community had become very Anglicised, particularly second and third generation English born members such as Mary, and marriages with the outside community were increasingly common, probably even accounting for the majority of marriages by that point, whereas just a generation or so before 1730-50 this was by no means yet the case.
In fact logically the petition to the French Hospital of James Feecham alone itself indicates this as the case. The preferable way to trace your French heritage for admission to the Hospital was through the paternal line, and certainly if he had been French through both maternal and paternal lines he would have very much stated so, as it would have added considerable weight to his case for admission there. The fact he only claims through his mother's line and her decent from the Deverduns and Bacheliers, seems to confirm the above and that he himself was aware there was no French roots on his father's Feecham/Feacham/Peacham family.
The surname database appears to further confirm this with both Feacham and Peacham having native English origins:
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Feacham
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Peacham
Hope that is of some help.
Best Regards
Richard
-
Hi Richard,
I've just been advised by the LMA that the Bishops' Transcripts for St. Matthews Bethnal Green for around 1750 haven't survived so it looks like I don't have that cross check on Gilbert Goulden's baptism after all. I understand that you have bought cd's covering the French Hospital entries but am wondering if there are any which cover bmds or individual family records which might include the Goullee family and if so, could you recommend one in particular, please.
This is a last ditch attempt to finally connect my Gilbert born approx. 1755 to possible parents Gilbert and Frances, and even their marriage around 1754/5 would be a bonus.
Thanks and hope I am not being a nuisance.
best wishes
Val
-
Hello Val
That is a shame about the BT's for St Matthew's. Apart from the original register itself, which is the one on Ancestry, I don't believe any other copy of the baptism would exist. Sometimes the family did get an extract from the register for other purposes, for example with the French families to gain entrance to the French Hospital, but aside from the fact that any error may well have been copied anyway, this was not the case for the Goulle family.
There doesn't appear to be any other baptism's at St Matthews, or the surrounding churches, for a Gilbert and Frances 'Goulden' so that lends weight to it being an error for Goulle.
Regards
Richard
-
Hi all,
I'm new to this but have currently traced my Mum's family back to Bethnal Green via her paternal grandfather George Batchellier (via the Oxfordshire Light Infantry).
This thread has been most helpful in explaining where they were and why!
Thank you for the info.
Kev
-
Hi All,
Is anyone still interested in the Bachelliers? Trying to trace a family tree for a friend I have a hand written letter by Sarah Elizabeth Haley outlining her family. Sarah also gives her 2xgreat grandfather as Samuel,and mentions the cocoa plant in Normandy.
Many thanks
Lou
-
Hi Lou
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
This is an old topic.
Depending on profile settings, people may or may not receive email notifications that you have posted here.
If they do get a notification and are still interested, I'm sure they will come back again.
Dawn
-
I know this is a long shot, and rather than necroposting after four years I ought to start a new thread, but I am hoping to catch the attention of the people who posted before. The records for the Charenton temple, which were referred to in this thread were destroyed in a fire in 1871. There are trwo sources of information deriving from those records. For names beginning A-F there are some typed records here http://lecegd94.hautetfort.com/saint-maurice-temple-de-charenton/ (http://lecegd94.hautetfort.com/saint-maurice-temple-de-charenton/) which were derived from the originals before destruction.
That site also refers to notes made by the Haag brothers from the originals, which are apparently available at the Val de Marne archives. The link they provide is dead and I have been unable to find the records on a simple search and have therefore contacted the archives on their contact form. Their website is here: http://archives.valdemarne.fr/r/6/archives-mode-d-emploi/ (http://archives.valdemarne.fr/r/6/archives-mode-d-emploi/)
The strange thing is that although someone referred to 30 marriages for Bachelier in the Charenton records, I can't find *any* in the notes for the registers from A-F. I was wondering if they might be under Le Bachelier or maybe those records are incomplete in themselves? I am researching Nicholas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol, for a friend descended from them.
-
Hello Caliandris. I havn't read back through the thread, but it may have been me who mentioned the 30 marriage records at Charenton. I have had a look through my Bachelier file and can't find what that refers to, but there is a list of surnames appearing in the contracts of marriage in Meaux between 1536-1708, which lists 28 Bacheliers. Maybe it was a confusion for that. I do have a vague memory of another site though, in France, specifically relating to Charenton, which did list Bacheliers, though the records wern't online. It seems weird the B File on the link begins with surnames at BAR, perhaps it is missing an earleir page with Bacheliers?
-
hi there Richarde,
Thank you for replying so quickly on such an old thread. I think is *was* you who mentioned that Nicholas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol came from Charenton, and you also said that your ancestor Judith was unlikely to be their child as she was baptized at Meaux, whereas they were from Villeparisis. That does seem to be true according to the registers. So that seems a bit odd if the Bacheliers in general came from Meaux? The records from the Charenton Temple were destroyed and the notes may be incomplete, but I am wondering if you can possibly find the reason why you originally decided that Judith and the other Bachelliers were not together, and why you concluded they were from Charenton, as I can't find anything that confirms this at the moment, except for their births being at Villeparisis and not Meaux. Thank you!
-
Hi it's been a while since I did this research so not very fresh in my mind. This is the notes from my own research file. If this has all been covered already in the thread, I apologise for the repetition, but perhaps there will be something useful for you there:
Judith is claimed on several online trees as a daughter to Nicolas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol. Nicholas's son Paul married an Esther Saumon, and members of the Saumon family act as Godparents for Judiths’ children. Judith also named a son Nicolas, so a close relationship between her and his family likely existed.
However, unlike the other children of Nicolas, no evidence exists of Judith in London prior to her marriage in 1704. Nicolas and his family consistently give their place of origin as Villeparisis or Paris. On the only known occasion Judith provides her own place of origin (Son Timothy’s baptism 1729) she provides Meaux en Brie.
Nicolas fled direct from France to England after the destruction of the Charenton Temple in late 1685. In the first year in England 1686, his family appear in the charity records of the Threadneedle Street Church several times. On one instance Nicolas claims for himself, wife and three children. The children are not named, but if the numbers are accurate, this alone seems to rule out Judith as a daughter, as three children, born prior to 1686, are accounted for in later records:
1. Nicolas Bachelier Jr (born France circa 1674) married Madelaine Deshayes London 1697
2. Marie Magdeliane Bachelier (born France circa 1679) married Abraham Pottier London 1701 rem Paul Boucher London 1721
3. Paul Bachelier (born France circa 1680) married Esther Saumon London 1706, remarried to Marie Gaucheron London 1725
Nicolas, his wife, and all three of his children appear as godparents at Threadneedle Street Church London, on ten occasions between 1687-1701. They also appear at the smaller St Jeans Chapel in Spitalfields in 1697 when Nicolas stands as a godparent there. It would seem strange Judith not similarly appearing in these records prior to 1704 if she were indeed part of that immediate family.
The couple I instead favour as her parents, Jean and Judith Bachelier, arrived in London in the summer of 1701, joining Threadneedle Street church on 31st August that year. They had a testimonial of faith from the Huguenot congregation at the Waals Kirk Haarlem.
A month later Marie Madelaine Bachelier, Nicolas's daughter, got married at Threadneedle Street. Six days earlier she publicly announced her intention to marry at La Patente Huguenot Chapel, Spitalfields:
1701. 25 Sep POTTIER & BACHELLIER Abraham Pottier, weaver, residing in Ouyle (Wheeler) Street, Stepney, born of Nanteuil, Meaux en Brie, Son of Abraham Potier and the deceased Magdelaine Cadet, - and Marie Madelaine Bachelier, born of Paris, and daughter of Nicolas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol; together announce their intention to be married publically in the Church of Stepney, in unity, and without opposition.
Statement witnessed and signed by: J. Bachelier, N. Bachelier, Paul Bachelier, Marie Rossignol, Pierre Nepueu, Jacob Pottier, Jean Robert, Louis Robert. Minister: Balguerie
This is the first time the Bacheliers are on record using this chapel, and the first time a 'J. Bachelier' appears on any London records. Significantly, this is the same chapel Judith Bachelier uses to baptise her children to Antoine Deverdun 1705-1729.
If Judith were a daughter to Jean and Judith, and Nicolas and Marie instead extended relations, perhaps Uncle/Aunt, this would explain why Judith Bachelier/Deverdun calls a child Nicolas, and why Marie Bachelier and Marie Saumon, Esther Saumon/Bachelier's sister, appear as godparents to her and Antoine's children at La Patente.
When Jean and Judith Bachelier appear on the 1709 Royal Bounty accounts the following info is giving for them:
Jean Bachelier, 52, of Meaux en Brie, Weaver, and Judith his wife, 65, residing at Phoenix Street, Spitalfields were paid 15 shillings.
This would make them 26 and 39 respectively at the approximate time Judith was born in France, circa 1683, and the place of origin matches that Judith gives, unlike Nicolas and Marie Bachelier. In addition to this Judith Bachelier's daughter Elizabeth Deverdun/Morgue later also records Phoenix Street, Spitalfields, as her address, in 1763.
Judith’s marriage to Antoine Deverdun, also fits this scenario better, as he too came to London, from Haarlem or Amsterdam, 1701-3, as did most of the other individuals and families who act as godparents to the couple’s children at La Patente.
-
Hello Richard
It's been many years since you sent me the results of your research on my man of mystery Samuel Feecham - 10 years to be exact! I do apologise for my lack of response over such a long period. I'm afraid life intervened and I've only very sporadically been able to get back to the family tree. However even though it's been such a long time, I still want to thank you so much for the time you spent looking up those details for me. i did have a breakthrough with Samuel's parents, Ambrose and Elizabeth Penny and their two marriages, 10 years apart at the Fleet. I haven't quite been able to work that one out yet. I have the grandfather Ambrose on my tree from Romsey and a possible father, John for him. I did get back a long way from Elizabeth Penny via Martha Smedmore and John Penny who came from East Lulworth in Dorset and that family traces back to the Turbervilles who were apparently the family that Tess of the D'Urbervilles was based on.
I hope you're keeping well and survived the pandemic. I've been back to the UK since our last correspondence - I spent a year over there with my daughter and left to come home to New Zealand just a couple of months before the pandemic struck.
Thank you once again Richard, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help.
Jenny
-
Hi All,
Is anyone still interested in the Bachelliers? Trying to trace a family tree for a friend I have a hand written letter by Sarah Elizabeth Haley outlining her family. Sarah also gives her 2xgreat grandfather as Samuel,and mentions the cocoa plant in Normandy.
Many thanks
Lou
Hi Lou,
I am a descendent of Sarah Elizabeth Haley, through her daughter Sarah R Dunn, and would love to see a copy of the letter you mention. Would you be able to share somehow?
Many thanks,
Gary
-
Hi Richarde, I am a Rootschat novice so not sure if I'm getting this right but I too am descended from Bachelier/de Verdun via Susanne Margueritte Cordon, Marie Ann Pashley, Edwin Davis, Christopher William Davis and so on. Regarding Anthoine de Verdun's birth, have you had a look at a baptism record from La Flamengrie, Vervins, Aisne, France on 22 March 1679? Is it possible they were travelling to the Netherlands at that time? I read the entry to say that "Anthoine Verdun, illegitimate son of Anthoine Verdun and of Marie le Roi [was baptised]. The godfather was Anthoine Verdun and the godmother was Marie (the mother?)." Ancestry has the mother's family name as Leron. Thanks for your thoughts on this if you see this message some years later! Pamela in Sydney