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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: stoney on Friday 02 March 07 18:54 GMT (UK)
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Is anyone looking for any Pembertons in the Whitchurch area?
My 2XG-Grandmother was Mary Pemberton, and according to census returns she was born in Shropshire, sometime around 1837 (which also tallies with the age given on her headstone in Carlisle cemetary).
The only Mary Pemberton I can find to fit these details is:
MARY ANN PEMBERTON
Christening: 15 APR 1838 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England
Father: GEORGE PEMBERTON
Mother: SARAH
There was a brother:
GEORGE PEMBERTON
Christening: 03 OCT 1841 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England
Father: GEORGE PEMBERTON
Mother: SARAH
I'm having difficulty tracking down Mary's marriage to a William ROUTLEDGE, c.1853, as he was in the Royal Artillery and they seem to have moved around a lot ! Their children were born all over the place, due to his postings around the country and abroad. Their eldest child (my G-Grandmother, Mary Jane) was born c.1854 - calculated from census returns - in Gosport.
Any help appreciated! :)
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Firstly, check the Surname Interest Table (http://surname.rootschat.com/) You never know what you may find!!
Secondly, You can search the complete BMD indexes, for free, Click here (http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=List&dbid=8965&offerid=0%3a7858%3a0)
You will need to check out every quarter for every year, and although it can take some time, it will be worth it in the end ;)
Good Luck :D
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Hi, Lloydy,
I have trolled through the BMD's on Ancestry and I did send off for a marriage certificate of a William Routledge and Mary Pemberton that took place in St.Mary's, Chester, 1853, which looked about right for dates (given their first child was born c.1854/5) but Mary's Father's name doesn't tally with what I had.
Her age would suggest she was born c.1834 - the only other info I have is her Christening in 1838, which might be possible if not an infant baptism.
Don't think I'm ever going to get further with this, realistically, but I live in hope! ;)
Thanks for your suggestions anyway! ;D
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Mary's Father's name doesn't tally with what I had.
What sources do you have for Mary's father? The IGI entries that you posted in your original post? I wouldn't rely entirely on the IGI as there are known to be errors.
In the census what does it say for Mary's place of birth? Just Shropshire, or is there a town listed?
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Sadly, yes, it was an IGI entry that suggested the parents for Mary.
On the 1871 census, she appears under her married name of Routledge, the place of birth is recorded as Shropshire. It's the only census I can find her on - in 1861 she and her husband and elder children were in the West Indies, as he was in the ARMY. In 1851 I'm assuming she would have been unmarried but I can't find her on that or the 1841 census either. She died in 1873. :(
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Hi,
Not sure how this will help, but here's the birth reference for Mary Jane, in case you wanted to get the cert.
Mary Jane ROUTLEDGE Dec Q 1854 Alverstoke v.2b p.382
Regards
Daisy
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Thanks for that - I'd looked Mary Jane's birth details up but lost them! ;)
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Well done Daisy, you beat me to it ;D
Stoney, you said that Mary's father's name was wrong on that marriage certificate you requested. What name was on there? Was it very different to what the IGI quoted?
I'm sure there would be cases where a middle name may have been used instead of christian name. My Dad is a prime example of that!!!.....he was baptised Richard Brian, but hardly ever uses the name Richard, unless it's for a legal document. I have never heard my Mum call him Richard.
I've found the following in the 1841:
HO107/903/6 Page 8 Line 10 - Dodington, Whitchurch, Shropshire
All Pemberton
John Pemberton 45 Gardener Y
Sarah 17 Y
Mary 10 Y
James 8 Y
Hannah 4 Y
HO107/904/2 Page 6 Line 12 - Burleigh Lodge, Bolas Magna, Shropshire
All Pemberton
Thomas Pemberton 20 Ag Lab Y
Mary 30 Y
Mary 10 Y
Anna 8 months Y
I know that Mary's age isn't quite right, but thought I'd post the details just in case ;)
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In the 1851 I can see:
Mary Pemberton age 18 born Shropshire Astley, working for an Innkeeper and his family in Cheshire.
HO107/2171 Folio 133 Page 18
Mary Pemberton age 18 born Shropshire Whitchurch, working for a Lodge keeper in Chester.
HO107/2172 Folio 280 Page 39
Let me know if you'd like the full details.
I've just re-read one of your earlier replies and noticed that the marriage you mentioned took place in Chester.
Can you post the full details of the "wrong" marriage certificate please?
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For starters I've checked marriages on the complete BMD Index at Ancestry (http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=List&dbid=8965&offerid=0%3a7858%3a0) for years 1852 - 1855 and the only marriage for a William Routledge and Mary Pemberton is:
1853 Oct/Nov/Dec Quarter
Great Boughton 7a 518
which I think is the one you've already got!
Overseas marriages can be searched at Find My Past (http://www.findmypast.com) but unfortunately I don't subscribe to that site so can't check it out. Maybe another Rootschatter would be willing ;)
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Hello, Lloydy,
Yes the marriage at Gt Boughton is the one I sent for :
3/Nov/1853
William Routledge, 24, Batchelor, Labourer, residence: Castle of Chester, Father: John Routledge, Mason
Mary Pemberton, 19, Spinster (no profession given), residence: Castle Street, Father; John Pemberton, Labourer.
The entry for Mary's Christening I found on the IGI is:
MARY ANN PEMBERTON
Christening: 15 APR 1838 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England
Father: GEORGE PEMBERTON
Mother: SARAH
Also a brother:
GEORGE PEMBERTON
Christening: 03 OCT 1841 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England
Father: GEORGE PEMBERTON
Mother: SARAH
.....make of it what you will! ::)
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....just been thinking about Mary Pemberton - the only census return I have with her is 1871 and her age is given as 36, birthplace listed is Shropshire (no town).
This coupled with the MI I have (in Carlisle Cemetery):
"In loving memory of William Routledge who died March 2nd 1906 Aged 80 years. Also Mary, wife of the above who died July 19th 1873 Aged 37 years
Rest in Peace"
Seems to suggest her date of birth c,1835-1836, so the reference to a Christening in 1838 seems logical... doesn't it? Or am I clutching at straws? ???
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Hello again
Sorry I haven't replied to you much sooner...........I must have missed this one.
Will take another look, and get back to you asap!!!
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I've just been re-reading through our replies, and just wanted to confirm that you have in fact obtained proof of Mary's maiden name? (I hate to ask, as I'm sure you have!!!).
Mary Jane ROUTLEDGE Dec Q 1854 Alverstoke v.2b p.382
Do you have your Great Grandmother's birth certificate?
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Ok..............
....just been thinking about Mary Pemberton - the only census return I have with her is 1871 and her age is given as 36, birthplace listed is Shropshire (no town).
RG10/5218 Folio 17 Page 28 - Living at 16 South Street, Botchergate, Carlisle.
If this is the right family, then here they are in 1881:
RG11/5155 Folio 15 Page 22 - 2 Howe Street, Botchergate, Carlisle
William Routledge Head Marr 53 Railway Signalman/Pensioner Royal Artillery b. Cumberland, Hayton
Amelia Routledge Dau Unmar 20 b. Bermuda, British Subject
James Routledge Son Unmar 17 Apprentice Carpenter b. Hampshire, Gosport
Richard Routledge Son 13 Scholar b. Cumberland, Hayton
Emma Routledge Dau 11 Scholar b. Cumberland, Hayton
Susan Routledge Dau 10 Scholar b. Cumberland, Hayton
Jacob Routledge Son 8 Scholar b. Cumberland, Hayton
William surely should be a Widower ???
and in 1891
RG12/4285 Folio 138 Page 35 - 4 Howe Street, Botchergate, Carlisle
William Routledge Head Widr 63 Railway Signalman b. Cumberland, Hayton
Emma Routledge Dau S 21 b. Cumberland, Carlisle
Susan Routledge Dau S 19 Dressmaker b. Cumberland, Carlisle
Jacob Routledge Son S 18 Railway Porter b. Cumberland, Carlisle
This coupled with the MI I have (in Carlisle Cemetery):
"In loving memory of William Routledge who died March 2nd 1906 Aged 80 years. Also Mary, wife of the above who died July 19th 1873 Aged 37 years
Rest in Peace"
How certain are you that this is "your William and Mary"?
According to the census, there does appear to be another William and Mary Routledge in Botchergate - see RG9/3915 Folio 21 Page 35.
I hope you don't think that I'm questioning your information, but we do have to be completely 100% ;)
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Yes, it's definitely "my" William and Mary buried at that location - their daughter Susan Agatha is also buried there - a recently deceased relative of mine remembered her.
I sent for Susan's birth certificate and it gave her mother's maiden surname as Pemberton - so I think we can considered that "proved".
Thanks for having another look, anyway! ;)
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1901
RG13/4869 Folio 81 Page 5 - Elue Torres, Caldwegate, Cumberland
William Routledge Head M 74 Army Pension b. Cumberland Hayton
Susan Routledge Dau S 29 Dressmaker Own Acct At Home b. Cumberland Carlisle
Jacob Routledge Son S 27 Tin Cutter (Factory) b. Cumberland Carlisle
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Thanks, I found this a little while ago. The address should read Elm Terrace - I often remember my Mother and Grandmother talking about the house there. (I think it was absorbed into what is now Newtown Road) Yes, they're definitely all my lot!
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Our replies crossed!!!!
Thanks for the confirmations..........always best to be sure :D
So, I think we can say that in the 1881 the enumerator got it wrong.....William was, in fact, a Widower.
Right, going back to the marriage:
3/Nov/1853
William Routledge, 24, Batchelor, Labourer, residence: Castle of Chester, Father: John Routledge, Mason
Mary Pemberton, 19, Spinster (no profession given), residence: Castle Street, Father; John Pemberton, Labourer.
What do you think of this family that I found earlier?
HO107/903/6 Page 8 Line 10 - Dodington, Whitchurch, Shropshire
All Pemberton
John Pemberton 45 Gardener Y
Sarah 17 Y
Mary 10 Y
James 8 Y
Hannah 4 Y
BUT, without a birth for Mary nothing can be certain......how annoying >:(
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Yes indeed - how annoying! >:(
But that's my lot all over - people pop up from nowhere, get married, have a string of kids and then disappear off the face of the earth! ???
Going back to the marriage in Gt Boughton, William's father is given as John Routledge. As far as I can determine I have this for William's parentage, from the Hayton Baptismal registers:
Bap. 1826 Privately Baptized 30 May // 27 Aug. William, Son of John & Jane
ROUTLEDGE, Hayton, Labourer
(and his parent's marriage:
John ROUTLEDGE of this Parish Bachelor and Jane HETHERINGTON of this Parish Spinster were married in this Church by Licence this 17th December 1818 by John LEACH Assistant Curate.
This Marriage was } John ROUTLEDGE his x mark
solemnized between us: } Jane ROUTLEDGE late HETHERINGTON her x mark
In the Presence of: David WATT, John HALL
So, the William and Mary marriage certificate might well be correct - and the Mary Pemberton christening could be a different Mary.
Oh well, thanks for all your efforts - I expect the missing parts of the jigsaw are out there somewhere....! :-\
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Thing is.........this is really bugging me now ;D
William's baptism looks good, as does his parents' marriage. Just wish we could find the same for Mary :(
In one of your earlier posts you mentioned that William and Jane were abroad during the 1861 census, so I've been looking at the 1851 to see if I can find them.
I must admit that it does seem rather odd that they were married in Chester, doesn't it? I assumed that it was usual to marry in the bride's home town, but maybe I'm wrong.
Have you found out anything about William's time in the Royal Artillery - that may help locate him in 1861.
I shall keep looking........(in the 1851 I've come across 5 William Routledge of the right age, and all born in Cumberland :'( :'( :'( :'( :'()
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Mmmmm...found this in 1841
HO107/168 Folio 3 Page 15 - Stockdale Hall, Faugh, Hayton, Cumberland
Adam Routledge 60 (can't read occupation) Y
Hannah Dodd 20 FS Y
Thomas Milburn 20 MS Y
William Routledge 16 MS Y
and on the previous page, listed before Stockdale Hall:
Heads Nook
Jane Routledge }70 Farmer Y
Joshua Routledge } 40 Y
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Yes, I've seen this - there's a connection - they all inter-bred up there!
In 1861 William was in Bermuda, taken from a transcription of Baptisms for St George, Bermuda:
Amelia Rutledge, father William, Cpl RA, mother Mary, baptised 13 Jan. 1861.
Definitely the right family despite the spelling; Amelia was known in the family as Cassie - quote from my recently deceased aunt " the natives couldn't pronounce Amelia and called her something that sounded like Cassie, and it just stuck!"
So, we know where William and Mary were then! Although Bermuda was a British territory, there was apparently no census carried out!
They had the following children (just so you get an idea of thier movements):
Mary Jane b.c.1854 Gosport
William b.c.1857 Ireland
Amelia (Cassie) b.c.1861 Bermuda
James b.c 1863 Gosport
Jacob Ernest b. 1865 Pembroke Dock SW
(d.1872)Carlisle
Richard b. 1867 Hayton
Emma b.c.1870 Carlisle
Susan Agatha b. 1871 Carlisle
(d.23/11/1904)
Jacob b.c.1873 Carlisle
I expect William may have had postings to different areas, therefore the children were born all over the place!
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This is the Routledge marriage from the IGI;
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NFBL-6KR
This estimated 1834 birth date for Mary Pemberton, and the indication her father was John Pemberton, suggests we're cousins, Stoney! Mary was my gt gt grandfather's sibling, methinks. I have PMd you with my email.
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Hi,
I thinl that I might have found William in 1861,
1861 Worldwide Army Index
William Routledge
Number:148
Rank:Sergeant
Unit:7th Brigade R.A.
Regiment Stationed at:Jamaica; Bermuda; Quebec; Kingston (CAN); Halifax (CAN); Barbados
National Archives reference:WO10 / 2544
Looks like he has been promoted :)
His Army records are on FindMyPast let me know if you can see them or if you would like me to transcribe them for you.
Regards,
Daisy
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Increasingly convinced that this Mary Pemberton was the first child of Martha Pemberton, baptised 5 October 1834 at Myddle, Shropshire. Illegitimate, she is likely to have been raised in the first instance by her maternal grandparents - John Pemberton and his wife Mary (nee Painter) - in Astley, Shropshire. In the 1851 census she is 18 and living as a servant at an inn-keepers in Churton by Farndon, Cheshire. Martha her mother is to be found a mile away at Farndon in the 1841 census but had married (to a Timothy Chaloner) in Wrexham on 4 March, 1850.
Mary's marriage to William Routledge shows the right age but shows her father to be labourer John Pemberton. I think that Mary has substituted her grandfather for her unknown father. The church used is only about eight miles from Churton by Farndon, and whilst someone pointed out earlier in the thread that marriages were and are normally held at the parish church of the bride, I think this was because her father normally paid the costs, which wouldn't apply in this case.
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Is anyone interested in reopening this old conversation?! It's actually the Routledge part of it that I'm interested in because I think William is my gt gt grandmother's brother. The only problem is that in this string of comments the parents of William are (as far as I know) the correct parents for Mary but then... I found a death for that William at the age of 12!!!
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Hi,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
I'm willing to help and other RootChat members might join in, there's nothing better than a mystery to solve :)
Just to clarify your comment, do you think that the baptism of William to John and Jane is the correct one? and where did you find the death of a 12 year old William ROUTLEDGE? Who is your gt gt grandmother and do you know who her parents are ?
Sorry about all the questions but every little bit of info might help us solve the puzzle :)
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi Daisy
Many thanks for your response - I was so pleased to get a reply! :) So... my gt gt grandmother was Mary Lowes, nee Routledge and of that I'm sure. I know her father was John Routledge from the marriage entry in the parish register. According to Family Search there was only one Mary Routledge at that time/place and her mother was Jane. (There is only one marriage for John Routledge that fits and that's to a Jane Hetherington.) The Family Search baptism records look like Mary's siblings were Joseph 1821, Jacob 1823, Frances 1829, Jane 1831 and James 1836. I didn't find William (1826) until I found this thread because he's shown as ROUTLIDGE but that year fits in with the family!! The thing is that this William Routledge died in 1838, aged 12. Looking through the censuses it is possible to follow the family as at one point father John is living with Jacob and James doesn't marry and sometimes lives with his sisters.
Faugh is a small village in the parish of Hayton and I guess there couldddd have been another John and Jane Routledge... Unfortunately I don't have evidence to place William with this family as on the 1841 census father John is living with only the 3 youngest children. (So either I have the wrong parents or this thread has the wrong William?)
One other curious point that is noteworthy - my gt gt grandmother's sister, Frances, had a big family, but basically she named them after all her brothers and sisters, every one of them except that there isn't a William! So either he didn't exist in that family or he was a black sheep!! (I've also just checked and my gt gt grandmother did exactly the same thing and there issss a William!)
I'm happy for you to pick holes in my theory!!!
Regards
Narnie
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Hi,
I you don't mind me asking, where did you find the death of a William ROUTLEDGE aged 12?
This site seems to have transcribed the "ROUTLEDGE - Hayton by Brampton - Baptisms/Marriages/Burials"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01heh/
It shows birth of a William ROUTLEDGE,
1838 18 Oct William s/ Thomas & Eleanor of Corft House, husbandman
and a death,
1838 24 Oct William of Croft House, infant
It is also here,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01heg/
Neither of these sites give access to the image so I can't see if there has been a mistrancription, I wonder if it says 12 days or Inf that looks like 12?
Is it possible that this is the death you found?
Daisy
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Hi Daisy
No, that isn't the William I meant, but in fact it's the second bottom on the second link that I was referring to. The parents are John and Jane, it's the parish of Hayton and the birth year of 1826 slots in a childless slot in the family but it has been transcribed as ROUTLIDGE.
So, if I've got this right, the John and Jane Routledge (that I found mentioned in this thread) that I believe to be my gt gt gt grandparents had a son William in 1826 but he died aged 12 so can't be the same William that was married to the Pemberton lady. Am I making sense? I just think that either I'm wrong that this is my family or the William in this thread has been given the wrong parents.
What do you think? Thanks for your help so far! :)
Narnie
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I think that you are making perfect sense :) It's just an awkward puzzle :)
I just think that it is an awful coincidence for two William ROUTLEDGE/ROUTLIDGEs baptised in Hayton by Brampton to have the same death date 24 Oct 1838.
Have you seen the actual image of the parish record for the death or burial of the Willaim aged 12? I ask because the death date transcriptions from Familysearch are listed under the "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, so I wonder where they are getting the deaths from :-\
The other transcription showing the burial of William ROUTLEDGE,
1838 24 Oct William of Croft House, infant
gives more info than the Familysearch, it is shown as a burial rather than a death and gives the same address as the son of Thomas and Eleanor.
There is only one death registration that fits for a death or burial of a William ROUTLEDGE/ROUTLIDGE on the 24 Oct 1838,
William ROUTLEDGE Dec Q 1838 Brampton 25 19
Personally I would have to get it to see who is the informant, hopefully it would be one of the parents, and then you could be sure which William it was.
Daisy
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I can't believe that I didn't notice that both dates of death were the same!!! :-[
I'm getting confused now lol! I'm not sure how many WR's we have in the mix here!! I'm going to the local record office tomorrow and will report back after I've been.
Do you mean get a death certificate to see who the informant?
Narnie
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Yes, I did mean I'd get the death cert. but if you can get to the local record office and hopefully see the actual parish record then you won't need it :)
Good luck :)
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Hi Daisy
Firstly, am I the only person on here who previews messages then forgets it's in preview mode so when you try to amend something you instantly lose everything you've typed!!!! >:(
Anyway, if I can remember what I'd written...
I've checked the parish register and there is only one William Routledge burial where FS states two. The one I found is for the son of Thomas and Eleanor of Croft House so at least we now know that it wasn't 'our' William and it must be an error. My next problem is how do I prove that William (Stoney's gt gt grandfather?) is the brother of Mary (my gt gt grandmother)? This is important because we have the same parents for them. I believe there were 7 siblings in all. Is Stoney still active on here? There's only one Mary that fits with all the details I have and I have amassed a reasonable amount of info on the family. There only seems to be one William also!
One concern is that it seems that on Wm's marriage record (1853), his father was shown as a mason whereas on Mary's (in 1842) he was a labourer. He was a labourer on all his children's baptism records apart from Jacob (b1823) where he was 'Asst Overseer of the Parish of Hayton'. Also, on Wm's marriage date he is shown as aged 24 which would mean he was born c1829 and not 1826. The date of baptism for the Faugh, Cumberland William Routledge was 30.5.26. I know we have to take a few years here and there but the date of baptism is from the parish record.
Where do I go from here? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! :)
Narnie
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Hi,
Sorry not to get back to you sooner but every time I try to help solve this I only seem to go round in circles :P
I'm glad that you were able to sort out the burial, one less piece of the puzzle to sort out :)
I think that William could have lowered his age for his marriage to make the 10 year age gap look less. Calling his father a mason? Perhaps he just wanted him to sound more than just a labourer?
If you can see the parish registers can you see what the other children said was John's occupation? Maybe he worked for a mason?
Is John dead by the time of the marriage? Just because it doesn't say deceased on the certificate doesn't mean he was alive, I've seen many certs that done mention that important fact!!
If you click on Stoney's name you will be able to see whether she has been online recently.
Sorry not to be able to help more.
Daisy
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Hi
Thanks for all your help and you've been more than helpful! I thought I'd thought of everything but then you've given me an idea. I checked the children's baptism records and it says labourer but I never thought of looking at their marriage records! I shall do that next.
Also, I'm now in touch with Stoney so we can compare notes.
Thanks again
Narnie
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There must have been a fair few Pemberton's in the Whitchurch area. My Grand father came from Pree's left there about 1896/7. His name was Joseph.
Ron Pemberton