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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Westmorland => Topic started by: corinnelisa on Friday 16 March 07 14:17 GMT (UK)
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Wondering if anybody knew anythng about the Hayes family of Kendal and Grasmere aroung 1830's
I cant find any definite information on my ancestors parents.
She was Jane Hayes b 1837 Rydal/Grasmere. On her marriage certificate in 1861 her father John was deceased.
In the 1851 census she was living at the rectory in Grasmere with a John Hayes b c1798 Staveley and Mary Hayes b c1814 Kendal. John isnt with with them on any other census that i can find, however Mary is.
On Family search.org (I think its her) her mother is MargaretHayes and no father is listed.
Can anyone please shed any light on this?
Corinne
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I think there must be two different Jane Hayes's here.
If the one you have the marriage cert for says her dad is John (dec'd) -then she could be the daughter of John and Mary as per 1851 census info OR she could be the illegitimate daughter of Margaret as per info you found on familysearch - but I dont think she can be both!
Even If John was married previously to a Maragaret, then the birth would have been after the marriage for her to be called Hayes, so why would she have not named John as the father?
I think you need to just take a step or to back and try and establish the confirmed facts about 'your' Jane Hayes, and try and find as much supporting evidence as you can about her, before you try to move on.
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In the 1841 census for Grasmere, there is a Jane Hayes, aged four years, in a household with John Dixon aged thirteen and Isaac Pattison, aged 28, a stone waller. All three were born in county.
Jane was mis-transcribed as Jane Hayer.
I don't know if this is your Jane but do either of these two surnames fit in with what you know about your ancestors?
I can see no sign of either John or Mary Hayes on this census.
Cheers,
Jen
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Hi Jen
Yes I have found this on the census. Neither name rings a bell with anything else I found.
I think my next step is to find the parish record at Kendal for her birth and see what that turns up!
Corinne
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Do you live in or near Kendal? Can you get to the Records Office easily because if not, I may be able to help, though can't make any promises as to how soon. Next week maybe if that is any good.
Jen
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I will be able to get there soon. I only live in Ambleside! Thanks for the offer anyway.
Corinne
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That's ok. I live in Kendal but hardly ever have time to get to County Hall and I have only one line in my family from Westmorland anyway - being an offcomer with mostly Yorkshire and Scottish Roots!
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I'm born and bred and none and i mean none of my family has moved out of Cumbria. My dads side were all cumberland and mums side all from westmorland.
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That's amazing. You only have to look at my name list at the end of this message to see how far and wide mine have spread. It all adds to the interest but makes it much more difficult as it is almost impossible to visit the various Records Offices which hold my ancestors' details. I was delighted when I found out that I do actually have a Westmorland branch in my family but even then, they were from the north of the county, around Brough. Why can't I come from Kendal? It makes sites like this absolutely vital to my research and I can't imagine how my father coped when he started working on his family thirty years ago.
Are you Garden Centre Hayes?
Cheers,
Jen
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Well Jane Hayes was my ggg grandmother. There are other "Hayes's" which were born in Grasmere who were nurserymen and gardeners, which is where the garden centre came from. I'm thinking somewhere down the way i am probably related but god knows how as I'm stuck on Jane!
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Don,t think this is directly connected to the above but wonder if any of the following rings a bell. My family flitted back and forth to westmorland over the years.
William Hayes to Wm and Mary 1803 Cheltenham Nothing else.
William marries Mary Camm,of Lancaster, Kendal 1832
Thomas Hay born to above Kendal 1833.
Jane born 1839 Warrington.(also, variously, Richard, Charles and James)
William died in Lancaster.
Thomas was a gardener/ nurseryman in Kendal for yonks, died there in 1906.
William was a gardener. Could be a connection with the Hayes garden centre, but can,t follow that through.
If any of the above rings a bell, or anyone can make a connection between Cheltenham/ Kendal/ Lancaster, it would be good news. Another slightly interesting point is that William gave himself a middle name , Arkley (soundex). Not a family name as far as I know.
Happy days
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I think it must have been quite a common name in the area around their time. I cant find a connection with the garden centre as yet.
None of your names or areas ring a bell with my lot, but have come to a sticking point with that side of my family. If i do find anything more out when i get back onto that side i will post another entry
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Thank you for your interest. James Hayes, son of william, was a groom at angel yard,Kendal, 1861.
I am old enough to be asking them in person shortly. will include your query as well.
Best wishes Happy days
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Hi
I just started researching yesterday so was fascinated to find your discussions in 2007 about Jane Hayes. I have a great great grandmother who's name was Jane Hayes before she married - her married name was Robinson. Family stories say Jane rang the bell at Wordsworth's funeral because the sexton was ill - 1850 - she was apparently visiting her sister and so was young at the time. All this is quite vague but I wondered what you had found out about your Jane just in case there is any link.
Regards
Helen Collier
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Hello,
No, simply cannot find her after the 1851 census in Warrington. Not with her parents on the 1861 (Lancaster).
Don,t think she had a sister. Jane was born 6..3.39, Warrington to William Hay(es)/ Mary Camm of Lancaster.
The family spent most of their life from1850s onwards in Lancaster and Kendal.
Searched high and low to find a marriage or death for Jane but no good.
If anything there interests you please let me know
Will look into what you posted - sounds fascinating anyway.
Might I just add - possibly a co-incidence.- a John dixon is mentioned in an earlier posting. The 1861 census i refer to above has the hayes clan (no Jane) living at the Sun inn,Lancaster, Thomas Dixon being the licensee. Mary Hayes (Camm) 1805 Lancaster, was born to Thomas Camm and Margaret (formerly Dixon)
Best wishes Happy days
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Hello,
I have had a break through with my Jane Hayes who was born in Rydal 1837. In the 1851 census she is with her parents in Grasmere living at the Rectory - latter I found she married Mossop Tomlinson which then fixes her into my other links. So I think we are on two different ones. She was in the right place to toll the bell - although the story that she was with her sister doesn't seem to be accurate.
Helen
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Ho hum. Well done you. I'll keep searching.
Best wishes Happy days
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Helen
Yes my jane hayes married my mossop tomlinson in egremont. from what i can figure out, it looks as though jane was working for the rector of grasmere and living there too. its all very confusing. i havent got my details to hand at the mo but will dig them out!
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Hi
How does she fit with your family?
Helen
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Girls,
I have a very large print out of the Hayes clan, which includes seedsmen.
I am not permitted to give copies but would be willing to look see if any one is on there if you give me a name and approx date.
It is titled"the Lake district Hayes Family and Pedigree" and dates back to the 16 hundreds with the legend that it stems from someone who fled his fathers anger in Glastonbvury.
Happy days
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Hi
I have heard that Jane Hayes who was born in about 1837/8 was related to the Hayes family (garden centre branch) she married Mossup Tomplinson around about 1860 but that she married below her station and so was cut off from the family somehow. This is all based on what my mum remembers hearing from other people. Her father was possibly named John and born in the late 1798 ish
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My chart has the 1851 census Jane with her parents. Seems to go back to John Hayes who married Elizabeth Wilcock. Says she was the daughter of the owner of the Salutation inn, Ambleside.
The line on the chart goes much further back than that, but it's a bit complex to follow.
The line seems to go all the way back to a John Hais 1654 or , James Hais, buried 21.4. 1667, curate of Hescatt and Greystoke.
There are so many different spellings over the years.
Happy days
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hi both
jane was my ggg grandmother, she married mossop 21/03/1861. they were living in egremont at the time. they had 5 children, Mary Jane, John, Margaret, Mossop and Sarah . Mary Jane was my gg grandmother.
1841 shown as jane hayer living in grasmere aged 4 living with isaac pattinson a28 and john dixon a13
1851 servant at the rectory in grasmere with mary hayes a37 b1814 ambleside and john hayes a53 b1798 staveley.
1861-71 living in Church street egremont
1881 living at high mile egremont
1891 living at 44 east road egremont - have visited here.
1901 living at 76 main road egremont which i dont think is still standing. have found 73 and 82 but nothing in between
Corinne
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Hi
I have been speaking to my mum who was delighted to hear that other people were interested and I have asked her to write down any memories she has of Jane or her children which is where our families link Corrine. Mum said she had heard that Jane Hayes was at the rectory because her sister was there. So I was wondering if Mary Hayes could have been her sister.
Do either of you have any info on this.
Harry would your chart have details of who her brothers and sisters were and what there date of births might be?
Corrine have you found any records of Jane's (birth certs, baptism etc) which confirm her age and details if not I will make that my priority for searching. I did find details in 1841 census - the one you have but I also found another ref to a Jane Hayes - dates slightly different but she is living with a John Hayes(unfortunately can't find this ref at the moment)
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Helen
That would be fantastic if your mum could remember something! It is looking more like Mary Hayes being Jane's sister and John b 1798 being the father.
I have Jane and Mossops marriage certificate.
m 21st march 1861
mossop aged 23 bachelor, iron ore miner
jane aged 24 spinster, domestic servant.
both residing in Egremont at the time of marriage.
mossops father John. copper miner (deceased)
Janes father John, farmer (deceased)
witnesses were Robert Youant and Mary Tomlinson.
Mossop signes with an "x" and Jane signed her own name.
i assume jane was born just prior to the 1837 time births had to be certificated. I cant find her anywhere!
i look forward to hearing some interesting news!!
Corinne
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Here are some other notes I made a few weeks ago, trying to make more sense!!
1841 census
Jane Hayes b 1837 living with……..
Isaac Pattinson and John Dixon
Both working for the Black family in Grasmere
1851 census
Jane Hayes b 1837 servant living with…..
Mary Hayes b 1814 (unmarried) and John Hayes b 1798 widower
All working for the Flemings at the rectory in Grasmere
Mary was living with Jane and Mossop in Egremont in 1881.
Also
1841 census
A James Hayes b1827 living with…….a Henry Hayes b 1821 working for the Flemings at the Rectory
And
1851
James again living with the Black family as a lodger!
These two male Hayes’s must be related somewhere, Harry, can you shed any light on this?
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Chart probably doesn,t help much. The remarks may refer to Thomas Hayes/Elizabeth Vickers but more likely John Hayes/ Elizabeth Wilcock. John 1788 Staveley to1856 Grasmere. Elizabeth 2.8.1796 Ambleside tp 27.3. 1838 Crossthwaite.. She was apparently the daughter of the owner of the Salutation Inn, Ambleside. Married 5.6.17 Grasmere.
John farmed at Keswick. Went into the coaching business.
"in 1851 - the rectory,Grasmere. Sir Richard Fleming,John Hayes , widower. cowman, 53; Mary H, housekeeper 37; Jane Hayes, house servant. 13.
The chart seems to focus on the better off Hayes's.
I might add that my Mary (nee Camm) left Warrington in the 50s and re-appeared 1861 in Lancaster (with Dixon) - she had changed from a seamstress to "former house-keeper" - just wondered if she may have followed on from the pre mentioned Mary. Where my Jane got to in the 50s remains a mystery.
The first mentioned Thomas "farmed with William Wordsworth etc
The next section down goes To John Hayes, b 16/12/1832 marriedHannah Atkinson'. And William b 1834; Robert 1842 to 3; Those two just may be related to Mary and Jane subject of the query.
My biggest brick wall of all comes from from Mary,s son William Hayes - he awarded himself the middle name of Arkley or later artley. would love to know where that came from - not his mother i don,t think.
Happy days
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Thanks Harry. Quite a bit of info to filter there.
Where do you fit into all this searching - you are obviously a 'Hayes' are you in the lake district or now further a field and what is your relationship to the Jane you are searching for?
Helen
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I am a Hayes, with variations over the years. I,m in Warrington.
Wm Hayes was born to Wm and Mary, Cheltenham 1803. That is the full entry. Wms and Mary were all the fashion.
The younger William vanishes till he married Mary Camm of Lancaster in 1832 in Kendal. He calls himself
William ARKLEY Hay, later changed to Artley (think soundex) and he is a Hayes again.
He has a son Thomas, also Richard , James and Charles and Jane 1939 - all in Warrington 1841 and 1851. By the 1861 Jane has disappeared off the map and the family are back in Lancaster, with Dixon ( the name of Mary Camms mother) in Sun street.
Thomas is a gardener in Kendal for the rest of his life. James a groom in Kendal. William and Mary are buried in Lancaster. Charles was book-binder in Lancaster. Richard never went far from Manchester.
I can find a marriage for a Jane which fits, but I am fairly certain that one was born in Aspull.
ARKLEY must mean something and would give me a clue as to the brick wall which is Wm and Mary senior. What were they doing in Cheltenham?
To throw in another red herring, there is a Hayes connection through a William and Jane Hayes, 1814 Lancaster, and eventually the Newton family and Charles Hayes as above.
Happy days
An enigma wrapped up in a puzzle.
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helen
i dont think ive asked you what your link to Jane is?
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Hi Corrine
Jane is my great great grandmother. The line goes down through her daughter Margaret, sister of Mary Jane who is your link. Margaret married Mossop Thomlinson and had a daughter called Margaret who married a Pattinson. My grandad was Roger Pattinson (known as dodger) who was a local charachter in Egremont - good at gurning at the crab fair, distilling his own whisky and laying trails for the hounds. My mum's sister Margaret Pattinson (lived in Egremont) unfortunatley died last year taking with her a lot of the family knowledge. At work at moment so will put more on later
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helen
a little confused! margaret married mossop tomlinson?
do you have your tree listed anywhere?
where do you live?
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Hi
Sorry Jane married Mossop! I was at work!
I live in Leeds. My mum was brought up in Egremont as a girl although she left when she was 14. Her sister stayed and still has family there. What about you?
I have only been doing this 1 week so not quite got a lovely tree yet. Would you like a picture of Jane - I can get a copy
Helen
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Hi
Oh my god, i would love a picture of Jane! I have a really nice picture of Mary Jane Tomlinson with her husband John Hodgson and their 5 girls if you would like a copy of that?
So is it Janes daugther, Margaret who is your link?
I live in Kendal, born and bred. Ive moved around the country a bit but ended up back here. My dads side of the family are all from the Cockermouth, Egremont, Workington area and mums side are Ulverston, Windermere. So we havent moved around a lot at all!
my email is (*)
I look forward to receiving the pic.
Corinne
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- Be warned she looks a bit severe!
Yes Margaret is the link - Jane lived with Margaret in Egremont at the end of her life.
My mum asked me to find out more about her - particularly the story that she tolled the bell at Wordsworth funeral. The dates are spot on for this because Wordsworth died in 1850 and we know Ann was at the rectory in 1851. Apparently towards the end of her life she lost her sight and used to send the grandchildren to Grasmere Church yard to put their arms around a tree planted in Wordsworth memory and the grandchildren had to come back and tell her how big it had grown - not sure which tree though!
Mum is going to get copies of the photo and I will get them to you.
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forgot i couldnt show my email on here!
i have seen some very scary photos on my travels of various ancestors, they didnt smile much back then!!
my mum cant remember much at all about the family, she keeps saying "it was never talked about"
It will be interesting to see if Jane has the same characteristics of that side of the family. All the women had long drawn faces and were very thin! Until me!!
corinne
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Girls,
Just wondered if any of you can help. Can,t help feeling there may be a connection somewhere.
My Mary hayes was a dressmaker to 1851. Bewtween there and 1861 when they moved to the Lancaster and Kendal area, she became a ladies maid. Wonder where.
Any William hay (es) in your family trees around 1780? Arkley (soundex mean anything). Newtons / Dixons?. I can find a vague connection between a Wm Hayes/Jane, Lancaster C1800.
Just a thought as I am old enough to be asking them in person shortly
and lastly, the comment above. All my family are tall and thin.
Happy days
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Harry
literally the only Hayes i have is Jane b 1837 rydal/grasmere. i am sure they all must be related somehow though. I have been on a sticking point with her for months.
corinne
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Hi Corrine
Have you any idea how we make contact through email from this site - I can't find the magic button.
I have just found a reference to a christening of a Jane Hayes in 1837 (Rydal) with mother Margaret. It would be really good to find out exactly where you have been and what records you have looked through - so swapping emails would be good for this.
Helen
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i have found that record too from the family search website. i thinks thats where i got confused to start with.
I will see if i can find the magic button and i will send you the pic with Mary Jane Tomlinson, husband John Hodgson and their five girls.
Corinne
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helen
i cant find a place to send a normal email, but have managed to attach my pic to this message.
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Corrine
This is a beautiful photograph.
Thanks
Helen
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Are you out there Harry
More about Jane (my) I don't know whether this is a connection or not but in the 1841 Census there is a 4 year old Jane Hayes(r) who is living/staying with two males neither with her surname. I noticed that one was a 13 year old boy John Dixon (born about 1828 Westmorland). They are in Grasmere
In April you asked if Newton/Dixon names meant anything to either myself or Corrine. Could there be any connection here with this very young Jane Hayes or is it purely coincidental.
Can you shine any light on this?
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helen
have you managed a copy of the pic of jane as yet. Would love to see waht she was like!
Corinne
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Magic Button is a scroll. Look under the name of the person you want to contact and click the scroll. That gives you the option to send a personal message. Those are completely private so you can exchange email addresses by doing that. Do look at the Help button at the top of the page and the tips on the beginners' board and you will learn all the quirks of the site!
Andrea
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Thanks
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Helen,
Couldn,t really ask anyone to follow all this. Lots of connections or co-incidences.
William Hayes to Wm and Mary 1805 Cheltenham
1832 Kendal, Wm marries Mary Camm of Lancaster (mothers name DIXON).
1839 and 49, Jane and C harles born to above. Jane diappears off the map after 1851.
1861 Wm, Mary and Charles together with Dixons at Sun street, Lancaster. Newtons next door.
Moving to an unconnected family? William and Jane Swan, married 2.7.1814 Lancaster. They had Alice who married John Newton in 1841. Also Ellen who married Wm Stewardson . The odd Hayes and Newton appear on various census together with the name Black ; Monks and Stewardson.
The only real connection is the marriage of CHARLES to Ellen Newton in 1875. This is witnessed by William Hayes Newton who is the son of John and Alice. Surely that can' t be a co-incidence.
Ther are other co-incidences and inter-twining but too boring perhaps.
Just possible one of the above names might ring a bell with somebody. Would love to know antecedents about the William and Jane mentioned. He was from what was Yorkshire but right on the boundary.
My William adopted the name variously Arkley; Arteley; Artley - where on earth did that come from.?
Happy days (read just before you go to bed, will ensure a good nights sleep)
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I am descended from Thomas Hayes and Elizabeth Vickers (born 1786 and 1796 respectively).
I believe Thomas' parents were Richard Hayes and Margaret Minikin perhaps from Beetham.
It is intriguing that you have a family tree going back to 1600 and something. Are you able to post something of that family tree before 1800?
And what is the reference to Glastonbury?