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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: An65 on Friday 16 March 07 18:44 GMT (UK)
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Thomas Gray was born circa 1764 somewhere in Cambridge (supposed not but not essential).
He married Susannah Faben in 1791 at Burwell in Cambridge.
Their children might be familiar with those who have read the likes of Revd George Halls "The Gypsies Parson":
There was Joseph b.1792 at Burwell
Susan b.1795 Burwell married Thomas Gray s/o Foulk/Fowk/Founess & Mary c.1798 Great Shelford Cam
John Budd aka Jack b.1798 March Cam - the much married Jack Gray of folklore who was transported to Van Diemens Land (Tasmania) in 1844 on the Sir Robert Peel along with Elias Boss for horse stealing at Hammeringham Lincs.
Pyramus b.1802 Outwell Cam who married Millia (Amelia) daughter of No Name (Edward) Heron. He died at Louth in 1886.
Maria b.1805 Upwell married Israel Gray she appears on the 1881 census at Queens Court Boston Lincolnshire
William b.1808 d.1808 Upwell Cam
Francis b.1809 d.1812 Outwell Cam
Esther b.1812 married William "Bill" Tansey of Wales. She also lived at Queens Court Boston Lincs.
Contrary to folklore, Pyramus and Jack Gray were not brothers of Oseri Gray. Oseri was the son of an older Ossory Gray who was born in 1777 at Horningsea Cam, the son of Thomas and Elizabeth.
Thomas and Elizabeth appear to have had:
George c.1767 Ashwell Hrts
Obvious links to the family appear with their travelling companions during the censuses and with naming children after apparent relatives. So we appear to end up with a family that looks roughly like this:
Peter Gray b.cir 1745 d.1834 Haddenham (gipsy) age 91
Permessus Gray b.cir 1754 d.1822 Great Marlow Bks
Foulk/Fowk/Founess Gray b.cir 1755 d.1828 St Giles Cam age 91
John Gray b.cir 1750 something, married to Ann and Mary - had children who were known gipsies.
The aforementioned Thomas and Susannah
Charles Gray b.cir 1763 married Aquila Smith
George Gray b.1767 Ashwell Hrts
William Gray b.cir 1775 married Retty/Mretta Smith
Ossory Gray b.1777 Horningsea Cam
Robert Gray b.cir 1779 married Mary Leighton and had known gypsy children
and James b.cir 1780ish who married Sophia Sly.
Sophia Sly was the daughter of James Sly and Sophia Gray... so there must have been an early Sophia as Well.
So please, has anyone, anywhere, come across Thomas and Elizabeth and any of their children? I would be very happy to solve this particular puzzle.
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Can you please tell me where Robert Gray (married Mary Leighton) fits into the picture with Thomas Gray?
I am reasonably confident I am a descendant of Robert (I need a more solid connection from a son Henry born approx 1804 back to Robert but anecdotal evidence so far is strong) and maybe able to provide some information.
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Thomas Gray married Elizabeth
they MAY have had the following children, or they MAY be siblings or cousins -
Peter Gray b.cir 1745 d.1834 Haddenham (gipsy) age 91
he married Sarah King 1782 at Stotfold Bdf
Permessus Gray b.cir 1754 d.1822 Great Marlow Bks
Foulk/Fowk/Founess Gray b.cir 1755 d.1828 St Giles Cam age 91 married Mary
John Gray b.cir 1750 something, married to Ann and Mary - had children who were known gipsies.
Charles Gray b.cir 1763 married Aquila Smith
Thomas Gray b.cir 1764 married Susannah Faben
George Gray b.1767 Ashwell Hrts
William Gray b.cir 1775 married Retty/Mretta Smith
Ossory Gray b.1777 Horningsea Cam married Ann (Hannah) Riches and later Lydia Overton nee Coe.
Robert Gray b.cir 1779 married Mary Leighton and had known gypsy children
and James b.cir 1780ish who married Sophia Sly.
Now Robert Gray and Mary Leighton had the following that I know of:
Robert c.04.12.1799 Isleham, married Sarah Harris,
Mary c.03.08.1800 Isleham,
Henry c.05.08.1806 Isleham.
Robert Jnr and Sarah Harris had:
Urania c.09.12.1827 Little Yeldham Ex
William b.1839 c.01.05.1842 Stoke Ferry Nfk married Sylvester Gray b.cir 1851 Burwell Cam
Margaret c.14.05.1844 Stoke Ferry Nfk
Henry c.14.02.1850 East Winch married 1) Sarah and 2) Lavinia Waterfield
Ellen b.cir 1847 Harpley Nfk
Hope that helps?
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Firstly, thanks very much for the quick reply and the additional information. It is very interesting and most helpful.
As I mentioned, I am pretty sure I descend from Henry Gray (son of Robert Gray and Mary Leighton). Henry married a Mary King and seems to have settled in Mildenhall Suffolk - children of Henry and Mary were christened at the Mildenhall Wesleyan Chapel. It would seem that Mary dies in 1845 and Henry and his children emigrated to South Australia. By any chance can you provide me with the source of info for linking Robert Gray/Mary Leighton as being the parents of Henry Gray?
It also seems that Robert and Mary had another child (William) c 1813. He married an Ann King and he (and his wife and children) emigrated to New South Wales (via Tasmania) in 1858.
At this stage, I have no idea of the other 2 children of Robert and Mary that you have mentioned (Robert and Mary).
Whilst tracking Grays in Mildenhall I have come across a death certificate for Charles Gray - a Tinker - (12 Sept 1847) age 84 years - which gives a YOB cir 1863 - is this possibly the Charles Gray you refer to?
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Robert Gray and Mary had a son Henry bapt at Isleham Cam 05 08-1804 Isleham Cam according to IGI ref www.familysearch.org.
I received the original date as given above from another researcher, apparently a wrong date, apologies for that error" I hate errors for obvious reasons.
I assume without proof that this is Robt and Mary Leighton.
You are looking for similar, and it is reasonable. Certainly Robt Jnr and Sarah Harris had the William who married Silvester Gray, as they are apparent on the cenus. Silvester GRAY was almost certainly a relative, as is often expected of Romany ancesters, being the daughter of dinah Gray and Big Jim Shaw.
She was bapt 1819 at Wickham, Ex, and was known as shaw aka thorpe.
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Whilst tracking Grays in Mildenhall I have come across a death certificate for Charles Gray - a Tinker - (12 Sept 1847) age 84 years - which gives a YOB cir 1863 - is this possibly the Charles Gray you refer to?
yes
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Dear An65
I owe you a response to mail and have not forgotten. Quite a bit on right now (changing jobs, house, location) but will reply in due course - once I get things off pieces of paper and onto computer.
Regards
Grayaust
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Hi An65,
I am a descendent of Robert & Mary (nee Leighton) Gray.
Regarding; Silvester GRAY was almost certainly a relative, as is often expected of Romany ancesters, being the daughter of dinah Gray and Big Jim Shaw. She was bapt 1819 at Wickham, Ex, and was known as shaw aka thorpe.
My research is that the above Sylvester (Thorpe/Shaw/Gray) married Stephen Loveridge, b. 1820 Yowcester, Nothamptonshire, England. This Sylvester being a grandaughter of both Moses & Susannah Shaw as well as, Foundness & Mary Gray. Note Stephen & Sylvester are only around one year apart in birthdates.
I have as the Sylvester (Thorpe) Gray who married William Gray, son of Robert & Sarah (nee Harris) Gray, as being born around 1851 Burwell, Cambridge.
William Gray being born around 1839 Stoke, Ferry, is 20 years older than the Sylvester Thorpe/Shaw/Gray, bapt 1819 at Wickham, Exeter but, he is only around 12 years older than the 1851 Burwell, Cambridge, Sylvester Shaw. The male being 20 years younger than the female sounds a tad unusual even for a gypsy family where as the male being 12 years older than his female partner is more the norm?
I have seen other genealogy research stating what you have, perhaps I may be wrong ? I haven't for some reason got any parents for the Sylvester born 1851 Burwell, Cambridge, so I best look into that.
This same Gray family also had a tendency which is quite well researched to use the surnames of Gray, Thorpe, Shaw, Mobbs, & others regardless of their fathers surname of Gray. Sometimes they alternated throughout their lives just to make it harder & more confusing for us present days researchers & descendents.
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Hi to all Gray researchers,
My paternal g grandparents John Taylor and Sophia Harris (mainly in Norfolk/Suffolk) had 12 children. Their last child, my grandfather, a son called Alger, b 1882 Thetford, she called herself GRAY.
Alger married Beatirce Wilson in 1902 in Bury St Edmonds. Her parents were Mark Wilson and Eliza Thopre, who married at the Parish Church, Eriswell, Mildenhall ,December 1867. They were aged 21 & 18.
The witnesses were William Gray and Sylvester Gray.
I wonder if they connect with any of your ancestors.
Lavina
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Hi Lavina,
Yes, I'm sure there are several relationships to my family of Grays &, I would from what I know already of these families, there will be many more as the family history is unravelled further.
From my data base the following:
William Gray b. Circa 1839 Stoke, Ferry, married Sylvester (Thorp) Gray b. 1851 Burwell, Cambridge.
William was the son of Robert Gray & Sarah Harris.
Robert Gray was one of the sons of my ancestor Robert Gray b. 1775 Cambridgeshire & his wife, Mary Leighton b. 1777 in Isleham, Cambridge.
I am a descendent of another son Robert & Mary named William Gray b. 1812, Dunnagon, Cambridgeshire & his wife Ann King b. 1815, West Row, Suffolk.
It seems that some of my Gray family relocated yo Mildenhall, Suffolk somewhere between 1815 & 1830 or there abouts.
I haven't any parents Williams wife Sylvester Thorpe/Gray as yet or for the parents of William Grays mother Sarah Harris. Interestingly though I have a daughter named Beatrice Gray born 1869, location unknown to William & Sylvester Gray.
In my data I have a Mark Wilson & Eliza Thorpe who had a son named Hiram Wilson. Is this your Mark Wilson & Eliza Thorpe ?From my data Hiram Wilson married Euphemia Harris who was the daughter of John Harris & Abigail Gray. I don't have any dates or other information regarding these people as yet.
I'm very curious & interested to hear your reply.
Regards
Nightmare
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Hi Lavina,
I also forgot to ask is your Eliza Thorpe descended from James Thorpe & Elizabeth Buttress\Buttriss by chance ?
If so she (& yourself) would also be related yet again to the same Gray family by being a descendent of Founness\Foundness\Fowk Gray through his daughter also named Silva\Sylvester Gray b. Circa 1793.
This Sylvester married Stephen (James ?) Thorpe father of James Thorpe who married Elizabeth Buttress\Buttriss.
At one stage I did believe Founness\Foundness etc.. Gray to be a brother of my ancestor Robert Gray b. 1775 Cambridge. But if this Founnes etc.. Gray died in 1828 aged 91 years of age as some researchers have him, this would mean he was being born around 1737 around 40 years before my Robert being born in 1775. It seems a pretty long stretch to me. On that information he is more likely to be in the preceeding generation to Robert Gray 1775 & his siblings.
I'm not pretending to be a Gray genealogy expert at all & I have so much to find, clarify & learn about my relatives but, I feel there is a lot incorrect stuff out there at present owing to the confusion of people with the same names such as the various Sylvester Grays\Thorpe, Foundness\Founess Grays, James (Stephen) Thorpes\Gray etc... & that doesn't exempt my research & the conclusions I have come to in my data. It's a genealogy minefield but, I am enjoying the challenge.
Regards
Nightmare
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Hi Lavina,
Thanks for the PM.
I forgot to mention also that I have in my data a Mark Wilson who married Sarah King, 19 December 1802 in Lowerstoft, Suffolk. Could this be a coincidence or is this Mark Wilson the possible grandfather of your Mark Wilson who married Eliza Thorpe in Midlenhall, Suffolk ?
Again someone from the King family is involved as well but, they are all proving elusive to link together so far.
Regards
Nightmare
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HI Nightmare,
My Mark Wilson's father was William, Horse Dealer. That is all I have on him.
That was the easy one, I'm still thinking about the rest.
Regards
Lavina
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Hi Nightmare,
Yes, Eliza Thorpe descended from James Thorpe & Elizabeth Buttress. I found the baptism of Eliza 14 January 1849 at Foxton, Cambridgeshire with her sister Lucy, aka Holland.
Hiram Wilson, Mark & Eliza's son is buried at Hopton, Suffolk,in the same cemetary as three generations of my Taylor family.
Euphemia, Fammy as she was known, is buried at West Row, near Mildenhall.
We always new there was a connection the the Gray, but didn't know which line to start with.
I'll be back after I've looked through some more notes.
Regards
Lavina
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Hi Nightmare,
My 2 x grt grandfather was James Thorpe bn c 1818.
My grt grandfather was Edmund bn c 1831, James's eldest son.
Some info on data I have re Mark & Eliza Wilson,
Ihave them having 11 children.
Hiram and Euphemia Wilson , I have them with 4 children
Kathleen bn 1910,
Rodney bn 1912,
Mark bn 1914,
Lazurus bn 1917.
Hiram also had a brother called Lazurus bn 1887.
Euphemia had a brother called Rodney bn 1891
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Hi Lavina & Cuxwold,
Thanks for the additional information.
James Thorpe being the grandson of Founness/Fowk/Fawk etc.. Gray. This Founness Gray could be our common ancestor ? I'm sure all three of us are related through the Gray family but exactly how ? I can't answer as yet.
I have him in the same generation of who I have yet to establish the parents for the following. (These may or may not be his siblings or at least his cousins)
Thomas Grayb. c. 1740 married Elizabeth ? who was the father of
Thomas Gray b. 1764 who married Susannah Faben.
Codilla Gray b. 1774
Ossory Gray b. 1777
there were other children
Codilla Gray b. Circa 1740 mother of
Charles Gray who married Aquila Smith
John Gray circa 1750 who married Mary ? & was the grandfather of
Charles Gray b. Circa 1811 who married Lydia Elliot
There are other Grays I have in this generation but the above have well known descendents.
The next generation after Founess would then contain the following Grays who have known descendents but I have yet to find the parents for,
Sophia Gray b. 1764 who married James Sly
Robert Gray b. 1775 who Married Mary Leighton
William Gray b. 1776 who married Henrietta (Retty) Smith
Of course the youngest from one generation could well be confused with the eldest of the following generation, they then may not be uncle & nephew. I'm sure all of the above Grays are closely related but ....... finding out how is the challenge.
Then there are the other Gray strays such as Euphemia Harris's mother Abigail Gray who married John Harris. I have only a reference to her mother being Sophia Gray & possibly being born in Bedford ? Her parents unknown.
The list goes on but then there are the just as numerous Harris strays as yet I am unable to find parents for who have further connections to the Gray family & so on.
It's a tangled web & not helped by our ancestors ...... scant flippancy with names & other details when it suited them.
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Hi Again Lavina & Cuxwold,
In regard to your Abigail Gray who married John Harris.
I have in my data the following which may be of interest to you.
John Gray married Mary Owens on the 12 November 1801, Meppershall, Bedford.
They had a daughter Sophia Gray, christened 21 November 1802 in Meppershall, Bedford. Could this Sophia be the mother of your Abigail ? The dates fit but..... that's all I have to go on so far.
Likewise, could this John Gray & Mary Owens also be the parents of Charles Gray who married Charlotte ? who then in turn had a son also named Charles Gray who married Mary Elliot ? The time frame fits nicely to all of this but I'm only speculating here.
Euphemia's Brother Rodney being born in 1891, that would make him quite a bit younger than his eldest sibling &, his mother would be some age when she gave birth to Rodney ? Perhaps my dates are wrong or have some entered in the wrong generations ?
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Hi , re Rodney Harris ,
I have him bn 1891, and this would make Adigail Harris ( nee Gray ) 43, as I have Abigail bn 1848.
I have Rodney marrying Rhoda Bird in 1916
Cuxwold :)
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To Grayaust I have read your reply on Romany Kent website I am the Terry who is the Grt Grt grandson of Felix gray settled in the Riverton area of South Australia and would like to correspond with you on our family history .
regards
Mr Bish
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John Gray would have been b.cir 1740-50 having Charles in 1783. His supposed wife Mary was reputedly also married to Fowk. (This Mary was Mary Tharp or Thorpe).
There is a marriage at Histon Cam in 1780 of a John Gray and a Mary Carter which might well be worth checking.
John Gray who married Mary Owens in 1801 sounds more like a possible brother of Charles ..... and there is an IGI reference for a John s/ John & Mary c.19.01.1780 Gamblingay.
Similarly there is an IGI reference for a Robart Gray s/o John & Mary c.08.10.1775 Gamblingay which may be worth checking as well, as its possible that this is the Robert who married Mary Leighton.
Now John Gray was apparently also married to an Ann, and tantalisingly, there are two IGI references which could prove to be their children: James Gray c.19.10.1783 Meppershall, and William Gray c.20.10.1779 Flitton With Silsoe Bdf.
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Hi Mr Bish
Have sent a pm to you.
An65 - I need to check my records, but I am pretty sure I have looked at the Robart Gray from Gamblingay as a possible link to Mary Leighton but it seems Robart died quite young. Will check my files to be sure.
Regards
Grayaust
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Hi Grayaust,
Thanks for the Pm but I have not had enough posts yet to receive it , I am descended from Herbert Nathan Gray and Sarah Arthur.
Regards
Mr Bish
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Hi, I am new to this family tree business, but recently I found out that I am related to the Gray family from Isleham, Cambridge. My gt/gt/grandparents were Cornelius Bailey 1800 & Mary Beasant 1813 from Wooton Bassett. Wilts. My gt/grandparents were Thomas Shelton from Wolverhampton.Staffs & Elizabeth Bailey, who was sister to Jane Bailey who married William Elias Gray ( Tinker ) I believe my grandfather on my father's side Charles Oliver from Bridgnorth. Shropshire was a Tinsmith Tinker, so it looks as if 2 gypsy families merged. Is anyone out there in any way related, would like to hear from you.
Verna
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Hi all you Gray descendants I have some information on some of the Grays but a lot of it has been compiled from posts such as these and my own notes, does any one know the correct surname of Elizabeth wife of Thomas Gray c1740 as I have found a Mary wife of Thomas Gray in the IGI records, being that they were Gypsies maybe Mary is the right name you all know how much these Gray's use to change there names the other possibility is Augustine Georgianna Elizabeth Ibry married to Thomas De Gray I know for sure that my g grand father often went by the name William Elias De Gray instead of Gray and so did some of his children
Gypsydescendant
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Hi there,
Thomas Gray 1740 his wife was Elizabeth Cadilla1741
William Elias Gray was married to my great aunt Jane Bailey from Wootton Bassett
Regards Verna
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wooooooooooooooaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh
Thomas Gray 1740 his wife was Elizabeth Cadilla1741
please inform us where they were married/how u got this info please please ?
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Hi,
If you have got as far as Founess Gray 1811 on Ancestry. Go to his profile, go right down on right hand side to where it says search the web for Founess Gray, it will bring up a long list of travelling gypsies. There you will find a load of information.
Verna
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I have now put Elizabeth Cadilla on my tree, unfortunately I am not with ancestry yet, I would love to see what info is there, maybe it could shed some more light on my own Gray's
My g g grand father was William Eias Gray and it has been a hard road tracking him and his family down, I have managed to get a few certificates and records for his family. I wonder if there was a special registry just for Gypsies anywhere does anyone know? I have a sneaking suspicion about lists of couples having 8 to 12 babies making the mother in some cases in her late 50s, I am wondering is it possible that a child being listed as belonging to a couple may well be mothered by an unwed daughter. Ladies can you seriously see your selves having a child in your 50s how many of you would be post menopausal by this age? Sorry to stick a spoke in the wheel
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Hi,
If you have got as far as Founess Gray 1811 on Ancestry. Go to his profile, go right down on right hand side to where it says search the web for Founess Gray, it will bring up a long list of travelling gypsies. There you will find a load of information.
Verna
I have been on Ancestry for some time and wonder how you get a 'profile'?
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a"profile". In this case it refers to the page that comes up for a specific person in a user created family tree. As you are probably aware A* allows people to upload and create their own trees, in the hope of linking them to other people. Its a bit hit and miss as some people meticulously add their source of info and others dont. People can also link themselves to your tree with not much more than a whim, and Ive found myself having to unjoin totally unrelated people that have been linked/added to mine in the past.
If you were to go on the family history/tree page of Founess Gray and scroll down on the right youll find a link to a search facility to find other web references to people of the same name. In this instance almost all refs refer right back to this website (rootschat). And I am afraid I found no ref to an Elizabeth Cadilla. What I did find was ref to a Cadilla Gray b.cir 1741 who may have been the sister of Thomas Gray who married Elizabeth. Im sorry to burst anyones bubble and if I am wrong am only too happy to be corrected with the relevent source info.
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I have a sneaking suspicion about lists of couples having 8 to 12 babies making the mother in some cases in her late 50s, I am wondering is it possible that a child being listed as belonging to a couple may well be mothered by an unwed daughter. Ladies can you seriously see your selves having a child in your 50s how many of you would be post menopausal by this age? Sorry to stick a spoke in the wheel
I could (but wont because of living relatives) name a case where exactly this occurred in my own family (NOT in this case on a romany line I might add!) an unwed daughter was indeed the mother of a child brought up by his grandparents, born 17 yrs after the last of their real children, a fact that went unnoticed for a long long time and created a bit of mess when it all eventually came out.
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William Elias Gray was my Great great Grandfather a lot of the information on this branch of the family has come from my research and has been copied wrongly from my family tree, most of my information has come from Williams granddaughter and great grandchildren so I know it is correct.
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Degray, you should get in touch with gypsydescendant as she too is a gt gt grandchild, living in Australia!!
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Thank you Bigmama60 for the reply, I have spoken to gypsydescendant and passed most of my research on to her.
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Hi De Gray glad we are on the same wave length, like my new nick name ? Did you find that letter from Bernado's concerning Lawrence Gray and I think Elias may have also been mentioned, we will have to line up a meeting in July
xx
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Hi,
I was just reading through the thread and am a little confused. Can anyone tell me how Abigail Gray might fit in? ie John Harris married Abigail Gray 1874 Kings Lynn. She is mentioned as a 'stray'. I have recently got their marriage certificate and from the census have now worked out that her parents are:
Elias Gray and Sophia Smith.
Does this fit in with any of the other Grays you are all discussing?
Some of you helped me out on the Thorpe side of things, I'm directly descended from Abigail and John, their son John Harris married Slyvester Thorpe they are my Great Grandparents.
Any information or pointers would be great.
Cindy :)
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Hi Cindy What date was your Elias married to Sophia and where were they married mygg grand father Elias or William Elias Gray born 1835 Cambridge was married to Jane Bailey 23. 4.1869 and was with her right to 1890 when there last child was born
gypsydescendant
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Hi Gypsydescendant,
I did wonder about your William Elias Gray. But it looks like he is too young to be this Elias. Could Elias be his father though? He would have been born before the marriage, Though Sophia would be rather too young to be his mother, assuming her age is correct. Maybe Elias married before though.
The marriage of Sophia Smith and Elias Gray is in Wisbech (Lincolnshire) March Quarter 1842. I haven't got the certificate yet to check it, but it fits. On Abigail and JOhn's marriage certificate Elias Gray is down as Abigails father 'Licensed Hawker' deceased.
I think he must have died quite early on, as I haven't managed to find Elias generally, but I do have Sophia, as a widow, on the census. The last one has her with Abigail and John Harris. My transcriptions as follows:
1891, Sophia is with her daughter Abigail:
RG 12/1513/23, Sall, Norfolk, Haydon Old Lane Van and tents
John Harris, Abigail Harris, 4 children and 'Sophia GRAY, mother-in-law, Widow, 65yrs, b Cambridgehsire.
In 1871 she is a 'widow' and is in Cambridgshire RG10/1609/108/pg 26 travelling with Abigail aged22 and a son Daria? aged 26.
The earliest I can find them so far is in 1861 RG9/960/94 pg 24, in Bythorn, Huntingdonshire where she is a widow and has in addition to Abigail : Golias, 19yrs, Mandos? son 15yrs, and Walter Gray who is a cousin.
(thanks to Rootschatters who pointed me towards some of these entries)
At a guess, as Abigail is the youngest at 12, Elias must have died no more than 12 years previously.
Cheers
Cindy
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William elias Gray was alive still in the early 1900's
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So I guess 'my' Elias Gray is not William Elias.
May still be a connection somewhere though, I'll post if I find anything (not actively researching at the moment, long story, hoping to resume later next year).
Sophia Gray's other children include Golias, if anyone has spotted him turning up anywhere.
Will watch this line with interest.
Cindy x
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Hi Cindy, they are probably related..........william elias Gray was born 1835, he married in late 1860's...so possible he was married before, he died between 1903 and 1912, his granddaughters are still alive and well.
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Hi Degray,
thanks :) will keep this in my notes.
Cindy
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With regard to Elias Gray b.cir 1820, I have a couple of possible candidates :
Elias Gray c.30.01.1825 Weston Colville Cams, s/o Israel & Maria Gray.
This pair were both Grays, Maria Gray being baptised in 1805 at Upwell, Cams, d/o Thomas Gray & Susannah Faben/Fabin.
The other Elias was c.1808 St Giles Cambridge s/o William Gray & Retty. I believe this Retty is the d/o Fowk Gray & Mary, as a Rittah Tharp or Gray was baptised at Chisall Ex in 1778. I think its important to note that this baptism records her parents as William Gray and Mary Tharp.
This family seem to have closer ties with the Harris family - Elias's brothers Ambrose (married Maria Harris) and Meshack (married Sarah Harris) They are also the reputed parents of Israel who married Mary Gray (above).
With regard to Abigail Siblings, the Golias is quite likely to turn up as Elias on another census - Ive seen that before in another family. The Mandos you quoted, Ive had a look at that census and am pretty sure it says Mandosa.
Mandosa/Mendoza was a name Ive seen amongst the Smiths. I think the Dora Gray in 1871 Census (and Ive looked at that too) says Dosa - and certainly that person is a male. I have also come across a burial in 1821 for a "Dossey" Gray which could be a derivative of Mandoza, so there could well be more than one generation of Grays that includes this forename.
Anyway Hope that helps a bit.
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Just had a eureka moment...
Golias Gray was suposed to have been born cir 1840s Abbots Ripton - and probably went by the name Elias...
Well Elias Gray b.cir 1844 Abbots Ripton turns out to be married to Amelia Hearn/Heron d/o Edward/Eldenham Heron & Christiana Smith. Elias turns up on later census's with alias William Gray and Walter Hearn - but the family are identifiable by a search for daughter Mary Gray who consistently turns up born in 1869 at Halesowen Worc.
Elias & Amelia had:
Abigail 1866 Bordesley Warwks who married Ezra Herring aka Iza Heron
Mary b.1869 Halesowen Worc married Alfred Smith
Mizelli/Marcelli b.1871 Walsall married Billy King
George Napoleon (the census enumerators had fun with this one!) b.cir 1877 Bloxwich Staff c.1880 Cannock Staff, married Jane/Sally Smith
Matilda b.1878 Walsall Staff married Tom Winter and later Rabbi Smith.
What is interesting here, to me personally, is Elias Gray was reputedly a brother of twins Righteous and Cornelius who also married into the Heron family. But his was the one baptism I couldnt find. Now I can see why! Righteous and Cornelius were twin sons of of the Bethania Smith - William Gray - James Mobbs triangle, and this William was s/o Charles Gray & Aquila (Equally) Smith.
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the Sally Smith married to Napoleon Gray was my great Aunt ,my grandad Ben Smiths sister .Their dad was John Smith married to Ann jane Deadman .thanks for the information ,i ve found so much family history reading all the old posts .... Janeo
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..
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not been around recently due to family big issues pls contact private :) x
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Knocking this back up the list for a friend - hope you see this Jim :)
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Just had a eureka moment...
Golias Gray was suposed to have been born cir 1840s Abbots Ripton - and probably went by the name Elias...
Well Elias Gray b.cir 1844 Abbots Ripton turns out to be married to Amelia Hearn/Heron d/o Edward/Eldenham Heron & Christiana Smith. Elias turns up on later census's with alias William Gray and Walter Hearn - but the family are identifiable by a search for daughter Mary Gray who consistently turns up born in 1869 at Halesowen Worc.
Elias & Amelia had:
Abigail 1866 Bordesley Warwks who married Ezra Herring aka Iza Heron
Mary b.1869 Halesowen Worc married Alfred Smith
Mizelli/Marcelli b.1871 Walsall married Billy King
George Napoleon (the census enumerators had fun with this one!) b.cir 1877 Bloxwich Staff c.1880 Cannock Staff, married Jane/Sally Smith
Matilda b.1878 Walsall Staff married Tom Winter and later Rabbi Smith.
What is interesting here, to me personally, is Elias Gray was reputedly a brother of twins Righteous and Cornelius who also married into the Heron family. But his was the one baptism I couldnt find. Now I can see why! Righteous and Cornelius were twin sons of of the Bethania Smith - William Gray - James Mobbs triangle, and this William was s/o Charles Gray & Aquila (Equally) Smith.
Nepolian was my great great grandad and I've only just found out today about the mobbs triangle I was really shocked ! But who was james mobbs ? I can't find anything about him before Amelia ? I think James and bethania also had a son Moses who in one of the census uses the name Moses mobbs but who were the mobbs family I don't think they were a gypsy family ? That's why they took her name well her previous married name or she had a son William Gray and she wanted all her children to have the same surname ? Maybe ? :-\
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Hi, Napolean married my great aunt Sally Smith ,her parents were John known as Jack smith and Annjane Deadman ,my great grandparents I have photos of Napolean and some of his family ..
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Just had a eureka moment...
Golias Gray was suposed to have been born cir 1840s Abbots Ripton - and probably went by the name Elias...
Well Elias Gray b.cir 1844 Abbots Ripton turns out to be married to Amelia Hearn/Heron d/o Edward/Eldenham Heron & Christiana Smith. Elias turns up on later census's with alias William Gray and Walter Hearn - but the family are identifiable by a search for daughter Mary Gray who consistently turns up born in 1869 at Halesowen Worc.
Elias & Amelia had:
Abigail 1866 Bordesley Warwks who married Ezra Herring aka Iza Heron
Mary b.1869 Halesowen Worc married Alfred Smith
Mizelli/Marcelli b.1871 Walsall married Billy King
George Napoleon (the census enumerators had fun with this one!) b.cir 1877 Bloxwich Staff c.1880 Cannock Staff, married Jane/Sally Smith
Matilda b.1878 Walsall Staff married Tom Winter and later Rabbi Smith.
What is interesting here, to me personally, is Elias Gray was reputedly a brother of twins Righteous and Cornelius who also married into the Heron family. But his was the one baptism I couldnt find. Now I can see why! Righteous and Cornelius were twin sons of of the Bethania Smith - William Gray - James Mobbs triangle, and this William was s/o Charles Gray & Aquila (Equally) Smith.
this eliace Gray and Amelia hurn are my great great grandparents I don't know much about them but its definitely them there son Nepolian was my great grandad and my granny Amelia was born to his wife Sally smith I think he was married twice to a Jane smith aswell and yes righteous married sage hurn Amelia hurns sister daughter of Edmund hurn and Christiana smith :)
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Can anybody tell me more about the mobbs / Gray thing please as James Gray / mobbs seems to be my 3 x great grandad he married Bethany/ Britana smith
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My great great grandmother was Amelia hurn Edmund hurns daughter her son Nepolian Gray was my great grandad I thought Amelia's husband was called eliace ? I can't find any birth for him only got him in the census but sometimes he's down as William ? :)
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Could an65 please help with finding the link, gray,smith, lovell
Many thanlks
Wallyg
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Hi an65
I need help to try and link the grays and lovells, ,maybe via the smiths
Many thanks
Wallyg
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well Id need a bit more info than three surnames to be able to help?
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Sorry ann, seemed to have found it via lavinia smith, but my great grand father elias gray who married sarah smith
Who died 1920 aged 77, his father was, i believe a william gray. In the family tree booklet of thomas and elizabeth gray by eric trudgill, there are a few williams,, would you know which is his father.
Many thanks
Walter
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I believe thats William Gray b.1822 Ancaster s/o William Gray & Bethania Smith. He married Salome Ellen (Loangellin at marriage) Boyling, daughter of George Boyling and Joyce Tansey.
Eli/Elias b.2.12.1843 c.3.12.1843 Bucknall Lincs he married Sarah Ann "Sally" Smith 28.6.1863 Doncaster
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Thanks ann65,..
I cant fit these grays in the family tree that eric tridgill wrote, do you know who was the father of william who married bethena smith, maybe he might jump out of the tree, your help is appreciated
Walter
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I dont know what Eric wrote, I make my own trees and deductions. I believe that the elder William was the son of Charles Gray & Aquilla Smith baptised in 1791 at Ashwell Herts, as he claimed to come from Cambridgeshire, not Lincolnshire. His (Williams) more usual wife was Tabitha Smith, Bethanias sister. Bethania went on to marry James Mobbs.
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Thanks an65
Yes i have found him ,he is the one you mentioned, son of charles gray. Charles is the son of cadilla gray who died aged 91 in 1824, it seems she was the sister of thomas and george, you wouldnt know who their parents were.
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at this point, no one knows.
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Just had a eureka moment...
Golias Gray was suposed to have been born cir 1840s Abbots Ripton - and probably went by the name Elias...
Well Elias Gray b.cir 1844 Abbots Ripton turns out to be married to Amelia Hearn/Heron d/o Edward/Eldenham Heron & Christiana Smith. Elias turns up on later census's with alias William Gray and Walter Hearn - but the family are identifiable by a search for daughter Mary Gray who consistently turns up born in 1869 at Halesowen Worc.
Elias & Amelia had:
Abigail 1866 Bordesley Warwks who married Ezra Herring aka Iza Heron
Mary b.1869 Halesowen Worc married Alfred Smith
Mizelli/Marcelli b.1871 Walsall married Billy King
George Napoleon (the census enumerators had fun with this one!) b.cir 1877 Bloxwich Staff c.1880 Cannock Staff, married Jane/Sally Smith
Matilda b.1878 Walsall Staff married Tom Winter and later Rabbi Smith.
What is interesting here, to me personally, is Elias Gray was reputedly a brother of twins Righteous and Cornelius who also married into the Heron family. But his was the one baptism I couldnt find. Now I can see why! Righteous and Cornelius were twin sons of of the Bethania Smith - William Gray - James Mobbs triangle, and this William was s/o Charles Gray & Aquila (Equally) Smith.
Nepolian was my great great grandad and I've only just found out today about the mobbs triangle I was really shocked ! But who was james mobbs ? I can't find anything about him before Amelia ? I think James and bethania also had a son Moses who in one of the census uses the name Moses mobbs but who were the mobbs family I don't think they were a gypsy family ? That's why they took her name well her previous married name or she had a son William Gray and she wanted all her children to have the same surname ? Maybe ? :-\
My gt gt gt grandparents was Bethania & James Mobbs aka James Gray from what I have gathered. (Their daughter Letitia 1845) She can be seen on census with Moses Smith & Eldri Gray in Harby i think it was off top of my head. Not sure but th8nk it was 1861. I see lots about the Smiths..and bit about the alias Mobbs..but nothing much about Letitia. I had a reseracher find the birth which was Hougham...or Hough on hill Lincs. No other children born in the name Mobbs in the area after or before..anything to add would be welcome ☺regards Rosie
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Thanks an65
Yes i have found him ,he is the one you mentioned, son of charles gray. Charles is the son of cadilla gray who died aged 91 in 1824, it seems she was the sister of thomas and george, you wouldnt know who their parents were.
So Cadilla Grey was born about 1733? She would have been 34-ish at the time of Charles' birth?
In the IGI (Familysearch) there is this baptism around the time of Charles Grey's birth:
George Grey
Christening: 25 March 1767 ASHWELL, HERTFORD, ENGLAND
Father: Thomas Grey
Mother: Elizabeth
Is this where the assumption that Thomas Grey married to Elizabeth is the brother of Cadilla Grey that produced a base born son called Charles Grey?
http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=193
Charles Grey
Christening: 26 December 1765 ASHWELL, HERTFORD, ENGLAND
Mother: Cadilla Grey.
Amended I see you have this, When Thomas Grey and Elizabeth were sent to Horningsea parish, they must have had some evidence of some type or baptism for Thomas or Elizabeth, previous residence or a marriage for the poor law people to do this.
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Hi all Gray folk,
I am an Australian descendant looking for information on Henry Gray (b c1804) and children Sarah/Sally (b 1832), Leighton (b 1834), Drusilla (b 1836), Felix (b 1839) and Shadrach (b 1841), who emigrated to South Australia on the Osceola in 1851. I believe Henry is part of the same Gray family discussed in this thread - can anyone confirm?
Also, I'm looking to connect with other Australian descendants of Henry Gray in the hope of exchanging pictures/information on the family after their arrival in Adelaide. Please let me know if you can help.
Thanks
Tegan
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Henry Gray bap 1804 isleham Cambridgeshire s/o Robert Gray & Mary Leighton. Robert Gray b abt 1779 possibly s/o Thomas & Elizabeth.
Henry Gray married Mary King who died in 1845 at Mildenhall Suffolk. She was the mother of his children.
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Hi All. I'm finding this thread very interesting.
My 5th great grandmother was Kitty Gray, her father John Gray from this line and her mother was Mary Smith.
I've seen some people mention another wife called Ann? I have little to no info on Mary Smith. Or this Ann. Does anyone else have more info?
Tony Dixons 4th great grandmother was Kittys sister, Mary. He has written 3 books about Mary's husband William Ayers. They also had another sister Elizabeth Gray who married Anthony Valentino Smith. Who's mother was aquila Smith. They also had a brother who married into the King Family.
I'm very eager to speak to anyone about this family whether it is the Grays, Smith's or this Ann.
Thank you
Pheobe Steven's