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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: mich b on Thursday 22 March 07 13:30 GMT (UK)
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A marriage certificate has arrived this morning for my 4xgreat aunt and I've searched the records on ancestry and familysearch (I'm not the best searcher though) and I can't find any trace of them. I've found their marriage on freebmd.
They are: Sophia PINDER (nee BINI) b.abt 1845
Albert Lucas [PINDER b abt 1846/b]
They were married at St Maries RC Church in Sheffield. His occupation is listed as a Tile Cutter (it could be something else, may be pile or file cutter?) Prior to their marriage they lived next door to each other on Canning St. (46 & 45)
Sophia's dad my 3xgreat grandad is on her marriage cert as Figure Maker (deceased). Albert has no father listed. Does anyone know why this might be?
I would appreciate any information at all on this couple or any suggestions why I am unable to find them. ::)
Thank you.
Michelle ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Michelle,
My bet is on File Cutter for the occupation.
If Albert hasn't got a father listed then he's likely to have been illegitimate.
When did the marriage take place and what was Sophia's father's name?
Tanja :)
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Wow Tati that was quick,
Sophia's dad was Giovanni BINI (often misspelt) and the marriage took place 19th May 1872
Wouldn't Albert have given his fathers name even if he was illegitimate?
Thanks for any help.
Mich
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Hi Mich,
It is common for illegitimate children to have no father on a marriage certificate. Most likely he did not know who is father was. Sometimes people will put a stepfathers name, if their mother married and they consider this man to be the equivalent of their "father". Sometimes people, especially women, will make up a father, often using the first name of an uncle or other close relative, to hide the fact that they were illegitimately born. Knowing he was likely illegitimate could help you find him in previous census records. He could be hiding under a different last name if his mother married and he has his stepfather's surname in the census.
Anyway, for a start, here is Sophia (I think) in 1871, before her marriage. Sorry if you already have this...
1871
RG10/4678/37/18
5 Canning St, Sheffield
A G Binn, Head, 27, Telegraph Clerk, Wolverhampton Staffordshire
Austin Binn, Brother, 19, Plaster Figure Manufr, Sheffield Yorkshire
Caroline Binn, Sister, 32, no employment, Manchester Lancashire, Lame not from birth
Sophia Binn, Sister, 26, House duties, Sheffield Yorkshire
William Binn, Nephew, 3, School Boy, " "
MJP
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Just to clarify Michelle - are you looking for them in the census before or after their marriage, or both? Do you have then in any census?
MJP
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Here she is in 1891, still at 5 Canning Street
RG12/3815/100/17
5 Canning St, Sheffield
Sophia Pinder, Head, Widow, 45(?), Sheffield
Albert G, Son, 18(?), Silver Finisher, Sheffield
Arthur, Son, 10, Scholar, Sheffield
Thomas Horton, Lodger, 43, Rearea soilari (??), Sheffield
I will try to find 5 Canning St in 1881 to see who is there. I can't find her on the name index in 1881...
MJP
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I now have a feeling we are looking for them afterwards.
There is a possible Sophia Pinder born ca. 1845 Sheffield on the 1891 and 1901 - 2 children, Albert G Sheffield ca. 1873 and Arthur Sheffield ca. 1881.
Just can't spot them in 1881, or even see the children's births ??? :P
HUH ??? - Sorry for echo, my message took ages to load ??? :P
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AHA! She is hiding as Mary in 1881.
RG11/4643/57/23
5 Canning Street, Sheffield
Mary Pinder, Head, Widow, 36, Sheffield
William, Son, 13, Warehouse Apprentice, Sheffield
Arthur G, Son, 8, Scholar, Sheffield
Elizabeth Schardel, Boarder, 19, Servant Domestic, Barnsley Sheffield
So.... it seems that 3-year-old William, the nephew, in 1871 is Sophia's illegitimate son.
MJP
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Well done, MJP 8)
Birth Albert George Pinder Mar 1873 Sheffield 9c 356
birth Arthur Pinder Dec 1880 Sheffield 9c 388
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Death reg for:
Albert Pinder
Age 30
Dec Qtr 1876
Sheffield
9c 233
MJP
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Sorry if you have this stuff already. I'm having trouble finding anything on Albert Pinder before his marriage, but here is more on the Binis:
1861
RG9/3478/37/22
151 Devonshire St, Sheffield
Geovanni Bini, Head, 57, Plaster Figure Maker, Lucea Italy
Sophia Bini, Wife, 57, Dublin Ireland
Caroline Bini, Daur, 22, Manchester Lancashire
Teresa Bini, Daur, 20, Liverpool Lancashire
Angelo George Bini, Son, 19, Pupil Teacher, Wolverhampton
Sophia Bini, Daur, 16, Sheffield
Austin Bini, Son, 10, Scholar, Sheffield
MJP
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1851
HO107/2338/526/11
48 Trafalgar St, Sheffield
John Biney, Head, 45, Plaster of Paris Figure Maker, Itlay (Br. Sub)
Sophia, Wife, 39, Ireland
Andrew, Son, 7(?), Scholar, Staffs Wolverhampton
Caroline, Daur, 12, Scholar, Manchester Lancashire
Teresa, Daur, 10, Liverpool Lancashire
Sophia, Daur, 6, Yorks Sheffield
Austin, Son, 4 months, Yorks Sheffield
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1841
HO107/557/7/33/18
North side of Orel(?) Street, Liverpool, Lancashire
John Benney, 40, Figure m, F (=Foreign Parts)
Sophia, 30, I (=Ireland)
Caroline, 2, Yes
Theresa, 6 wks, Yes
Thomas Jones, 65, Smith, No
MJP
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Hi sorry to take a while coming back to you, I had to take a phone call.
Wow MJP and Tati,
You've found so much.
I did have quite a lot of info on the BINI's (My maiden name) including all the misspellings, but it took me months (years) to find all that you've just come up with on them and I've only just found my family under BINN in 1871.
I had absolutely nothing on the PINDER's until the marriage cert arrived this a.m. I knew William BINI was Sophia's illegitimate son as his birth cert came on Monday.
I could find nothing for PINDER on 1881 census (that's all I have free access to) and I found nothing anywhere else. You're amazing to come up with all that so quickly.
I wonder how poor Albert died just four years after their marriage? I guess I'll have to apply for a death cert to get the answer.
What does Rearea soilari mean MJP?
Why would someone change their name to Mary, any ideas?
Thanks again soooo much. ;D ;D ;D
Michelle :-*
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Isn't it odd that the newly married PINDER's moved in to Sophia's address and not into his address?
On the marriage cert it says she lives at No.5 and Albert lives at No.6 . I thought it said 45 and 46, but with your input i realise it was the abbreviated form of "number". The certificate is quite faint and difficult to read in parts.
So many answers, still more questions. :P
Michelle :D
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What does Rearea soilari mean MJP?
I have no idea Michelle! ;D ??? That's just what it LOOKS like it says for that guy's occupation. It's probably something else really obvious, but I just couldn't make the squiggles into anything else.
I've been doing some more searching for Albert, but without knowing either of his parents names or his birthplace, it is pretty difficult. There is an Albert Pinder of about the right age born in Ecclesfield Bierlow, but he is a soldier in 1871, so that would probably not be him.
The name Mary could have come from anywhere, for example a) it could be a complete mistake by the enumerator b) perhaps her full name is Sophia Maria and that ended up as Mary somehow. I don't think its a case of her "changing" her name - just one of those wierd census flukes.
It would be good to get the death certificate for Albert, although I don't think it will contain any information about his parents or birthplace. But you never know?
MJP
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I think I'll have to get Albert's Death Cert, just to satisfy my curiosity, but there's Caroline BINI's Death cert. in line before his. You may have noticed that it says Caroline was "lame not since birth" on the 1871 census, I only discovered this the other week and I already knew Caroline died aged 35 in 1873. I'm dying to know (no pun intended) whether her lameness contributed to her death.
Genealogy is like an addictive story that is both frustrating and rewarding. The worse frustration being, when you know you'll never find the answers.
One of my biggest wishes is to find a shared history with someone. The BINI's on our line will end with my brother, unless he produces a son.
I wonder what happened to William (do you think he took the name PINDER as in 1881)? ???
Is it possible to look for Albert PINDER's address prior to his marriage (i.e. No. 6 Canning Street)? :-\
The plot, as they say, thickens.
Thanks for your continued help and interest (I'm learning a lot)
Michelle ;)
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Hi Michelle,
I have checked No 6 Canning in 1871, and there is no one named Pinder there.
It looks like William stayed with the name Pinder (he would have been only 3 or 4 when his mother married, so probably never knew himself as Bini.) No official proof of name was required in those days, so he could call himself whatever he wanted.
1891
RG12/3793/102/4
20 Vestay Street, Nether Hallam, Yorkshire
William Pinder, Head, 23, General Silversmith, Sheffield
Mary Ann Pinder, Wife, 22, Yorks Masbro
Elsie Pinder, Daur, 2 mos, Sheffield
Possible marriage:
William Pinder
Sep Qtr 1890
Sheffield
9c 571
On the same page: Mary Ann Savage
Birth:
Elsie Pinder
Mar Qtr 1891
Ecclesall Bierlow
9c 423
1901
85 Eldon St, Ecclesall
William Pinder, Head, 33, Silversmith Opeur(?) al(?), Sheffield Yorks
Mary A Pinder, Wife, 32, House duties, Masbro Yorks
Elsie, Daur, 10, Sheffield
Persy, Son, 8, "
Amy, Daur, 6, "
Marie (or Maisie?), Daur, 4, "
Mary Ann's birthplace is likely Masbrough, a part of Rotherham, very close to Sheffield: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Rotherham/index.html
MJP
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What does Rearea soilari mean MJP?
I have no idea Michelle! ;D ???
Could it be Retired Soldier? :P
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Yes (retired soldier) that seems like a possibility, but I haven't seen the text. May be MJP could have another look - please?
Hey, did anyone notice the extremely long incubation period Arthur PINDER? His dad died in 1876 and Arthur was born in 1880? That's got to be something like the gestation period for an elephant? :-\
Who on earth would name a child Percy Pinder? My relatives, thats who! ::)
Michelle ;D
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Hi all,
Retired soldier is a possibililty, but it would be a bit of a stretch. I have tried to post an image, but for some reason Rootschat is not giving me that option today. (When I click on "Attach a photograph or image", all I get is the three check boxes about notifications and smileys - no box to enter file name of the attachment or browse button :( I've had this problem on other threads, not just here.)
Anyway, if you are really dying to know, another option is to post a new request in the common room asking for someone to help decipher. Give his name and details, and the full reference of the census page so that others can look him up and offer their suggestions.
And here is Sophia in 1901 - I think we missed posting it earlier:
(I would assume that George and Clifford are Arthur and Emma's children, not Sophia's ;D )
RG13/4361/128.27
5 Canning St
Sophia Pinder, Head, Widow, 55, Grocer, Sheffield
Arthur, Son, married, 20, Silversmith, "
Emma, Daur, married, 26, Sheffield
George A, Son, 3, Sheffield
Clifford, Son, 8 months, Sheffield
(Marrying the older woman now isn't he!)
And good point about Arthur's birth date! Never noticed that one :o
BUT: if Arthur is born in 1880, where is he in 1881? Why is Albert G called Arthur in 1881 (I double-checked - it does say Arthur)?
MJP
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I have tried to post an image, but for some reason Rootschat is not giving me that option today.
It's because we are on a look-up request thread, I believe :) :)
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I have tried to post an image, but for some reason Rootschat is not giving me that option today.
It's because we are on a look-up request thread, I believe :) :)
Really?? So that you can't answer a look-up with a picture of a copyrighted image? Wow - I never woul have thought of that. Good to know! ;D
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That's brilliant MJP,
So now Sophia is a grocer and her baby boy has married an older woman. I wonder did they really have their first baby when he was just 17 or is the first child someone else's? :o
I wonder, as you found very definite birth dates for both Albert G.- 1873 and Arthur 1880, whether the enumerator misheard Albert G and Arthur and turned the two into one child?? (I'm getting inventive now :o)
Michelle ;D
I often struggle to post anything (I'm a bit of a techno-phobe) but it usually says I've got rename my file and try and do this, than give up and don't attch anything. Lol.
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Good evening folks,
The following are buried in grave N13 in St Michael's RC Cemetery in the Rivelin Valley in Sheffield:
26 Aug 1873 BINI Caroline 35y Cannon St
14 Aug 1870 BINI Giovanni 66y Carney St
12 Dec 1869 BINNEY Joseph 59y Cannon Street
13 Apr 1875 PINDER Elizbeth 5 mths Attercliffe
18 Jan 1889 SCOTT William 13 mths Trafalgar Street
31 Jan 1864 SMITH Catherine 68y Solly Street
19 Apr 1867 SMITH John 4y Hollis Croft
The burial database is searchable at http://sheff-indexers.thewholeshebang.org.
My particular interest is St Mary's, the protestant cemetery next to St Michael's. Here there is this entry:
BINI Ellen 28 Feb 1923 Tillotson Rd. 70 G326
[name/date of burial/address or place where death occurred/age/grave]
Also in G326 are people called FURNISS, FLETCHER, HENSTOCK and ANDREW (this is not a public grave). I don't know how she might fit in with the other BINIs. There are a few other PINDERs in both cemeteries but none that seem to link to the names listed in this thread.
The Sheffield FHS transcription of the 1891 census agrees with 'retired soldier' for that lodger (I haven't seen the original).
Hugh in Sheffield
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Oh my goodness Hugh,
I'm filling up - no kidding :'(. Ellen BINI was my great-great grandma. I wondered what happened to her and my g-g-grandad Austin BINI. Giovanni BINI is his dad, Caroline his sister. I know this sounds odd, but could Joseph BINNEY be Sophia BINI? She died aged 59 in 10 Dec.1869. There seems to be a contradiction with the certificates as they all say CANNING St. I know we've looked at the maps and they're all very close together.
I don't know who the others would be. Do you know why there would be so many people in one grave? Is Ellen BINI is the protestant side then? (sorry so many questions) Family anecdotal evidence suggests that there was a "fall out" with the Catholic Faith. We're all protestant, so was Ellen and Austins son; Frederick Austin BINI.
I'd only found where Caroline and Giovanni were buried, so you've all helped knock some holes in the proverbial brick wall. Thank you all so, so much ;D :-* ;D
Michelle x
I've no idea who SCOTT, SMITH, FURNISS, FLETCHER, HENSTOCK and ANDREW are.
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Hi.
This looks like the burial at Fulwood Christ Church.
17th December 1876 Albert PINDER aged 30 of Canning St.
There is also a Sophia PINDER aged 6 months buried 4th March 1877 at the same church.
Kind Regards
Tuppie
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Thanks very much Tuppie,
Imagine losing your husband just four years after you got married and then losing your baby daughter within months too. Life was certainly tough for our ancestors. Sheffield life spans certainly seem shorter than my country relatives.
Do you happen to know where Fulwood Christ Church is, whether its still there and is it a catholic church?
Thank you
Michelle :)
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Hi.
Fulwood Christ Church is Anglican
I also found Albert Lucas PINDAR(sic) in the 1861 census. He is an apprentice to Christopher Smith at 28 Regent St Sheffield and was born Crabtree which would possibly come under Dore/Totley in Derbyshire.RG9/3477 folio 110 page 9
For Christ Church see http://www.fulwoodchurch.co.uk/directions.html
Regards
Tuppie
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Thanks Tuppie
You're a star! 8)
You also found Albert with PINDAR spelt with an "A" instead of an "E". When you say, "...was born Crabtree", is that a name or a place?
Thank you very much it means so much to have your help and to put the jigsaw pieces into place (at least some of them).
Michelle x
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Concerning that grave in Walkley Cemetery... there are 6 burials listed - not an unusual number. It's perhaps less common to have so many names represented when the grave is not a public one. (t is aways possible that errors creep in with either the original record keeping or the transcription, leading to people being assigned to the wrong grave.)
If this is your Ellen, I wonder where Austin is buried? Do you know when he died? Do you know about these burials?:
Parish of St Philip’s, Sheffield (burials in Wardsend Cemetery)
BINI Agnes 4 Aug 1878 Canning St 2+
BINI Teresa 4 Aug 1878 Canning St 4
BINI Edith 8 Sep 1891 Channing St 11m
BINI Jessie 3 Dec 1892 3 Canning St 7m
All listed as daughters of Austin
Like Walkley this is an Anglican Church Cemetery (with Protestant non-conformists also buried there)
Hugh
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I found an Austin in White's 1911 Directory (online at http://www.historicaldirectories.org).
38 Nettleham Road
BINI Austin (j) mason [=journeyman]
There is also:
16 Rushdale Road
BINI Frederick car conductor
These addresses are in the Heeley/Woodseats/Norton area not far from Tillotson Road, the address in Ellen's burial entry. This is also the area where Angelo BINI lived according to other directory entries I have seen.
Hugh
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Sorry Hugh, what's Walkley? Is that the protestant side of Rivelin Valley Cemetery?
My goodness all those little girls were Austin and Ellen's daughters? I never knew. Edith was the twin of my dad's great Aunt, Blanche. They were born in Holborn in London.
Agnes was born Ecclesall Bierlow1876, There was also a Clara Eveleen BINI she died aged 5-years, I'm not sure who's daughter she was. Austin had an elder brother, Angelo George b.1844 in Wolverhampton (again many misspellings of his name inc. Angels and Angela BINN)
Teresa and Agnes appear to have died together. How tragic. My children are so precious it makes me wonder what those poor parents went through.
Do you know what "non-conformists) means? Austin and Ellen were married in a Catholic Chapel in Nottingham. I wonder what could've made them fall out with their church? Mind you I imagine losing so many children would shake your faith somewhat.
Thank you again.
Michelle xx
Just got your next post. How on earth do you find all this stuff? It's beyond my expectations!!!
Frederick is my G-grandad. I have his medals and photo's of him from the Boer War and WW1.
Do you know what a "car conducter" is (is it waving a red flag in front of car)? My grandad (Fred's son) always said he was born in Norton.
I've never found a record of Austin's death (mind you after what you've found in such a relatively short time - no surprises there ::)). I've never found a record of Fred's death either. We know the family lived at Shireoaks and dad and I have walked around the cemetry there and found nothing for him or his wife Florence Charlotte BINI (nee BINGHAM).
I couldn't find anything for Fred on the 1901 census (when I had 3-free days last month) Maybe he was away fighting in S.Africa?
So now we know Austin was still alive in 1911 and I know Fred was still alive in 1927 because my G.Uncle met him and Florence then when he began courting my G-Aunt, buit that's it.
Re; Austin what does the (J) mean and what's a journeyman?
Thanks lots.
M x
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Sorry, I mentioned St Mary's before...this is the church cemetery for the parish of St Mary's, Walkley.
Although the cemeteries are adjacent they are completely separate entities. St Michael's was opened in the 1860's while St Mary's was not opened until 1880. There is also a small Jewish Cemetery in the angle between them which was also opened in 1880. There is no access to the protestant cemetery on Rivelin Valley Road as there is for St Michael's.
'Non-conformist' refers to protestants who do not 'conform' to the established church (that is, the Church of England). So that will include Methodists, Baptists, Congregationalists etc.
I think a car conductor must mean a tram conductor (collecting fares and issuing tickets).
Finally, this must be the GRO reference for Austin's death:
GRO Deaths MAR Qtr 1927 [from the original image at Ancestry.co.uk]
BINI Austin 76
Sheffield 9c 831
and, while I'm at it the same for Ellen:
GRO Deaths MAR Qtr 1923 [from the original image at Ancestry.co.uk]
BINI Ellen 70
Ecclesall B. 9c 474
Hugh
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and finally final...
GRO Deaths MAR Qtr 1931
BINI Frederick A. 50
Worksop 7b 44
Hugh
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Oh Hugh,
Thanks for all that information. My dad will be pleased too. We're hoping to visit the cemetries soon. Dad always travels by train, but I'll have to come by car. Do you know if there's easy access for parking etc?
Goodness, so Fred ended up in Worksop (or would Shireoaks be classed as Worksop?) I don't want to take advantage of your generosity, but I don't suppose you could find Florence Charlotte BINI's (Fred's wife) death could you? And...again I don't wish to take the mickey, but is there a way I could find out where they're buried, so we can take flowers? :-\
Once again many many thanks.
Michelle :)
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Shireoaks is in the Worksop Registration District, according to thie Nottinghamshire gazeteer at GenUKI:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NTT/Gazetteer.html
I think you can drive into the Catholic Cemetery, but in any case you can park along the other side of Rivelin Valley Road, next to the paddling pool.
I can't help you with a burial place for Fred and Florence. You could ask on the Nottinghamshire page on this site.
If you want to visit Ellen's grave in our cemetery (St Mary's) there is a small area for parking close to the gate which is in Nichols Road (access via Waller Road). I don't think the grave has a gravestone so you will need a plan which I can supply if you send me a private message with an email address. I will check the grave next time I am there, just to see if I'm right about a gravestone. This grave will be under trees and probably covered in ivy.
Finding a burial place for Austin may need a visit to Sheffield Archives. He is certainly not buried at Walkley (I double checked now we know the quarter). He could be buried at Wardsend where those children are buried. The published index only covers up to 1905. At the moment it is very difficult to find particular graves at Wardsend which is in a very dilapidated and overgrown state. I have it mind to work on improving the plans to make it easier but that will take time. There are published MIs for Wardsend which I checked but there are no BINIs in the index.
Beyond that the indexes for the municipal cemeteries will need searching. They are on microfilm in the Archives.
I will take a look for Florence but that will have to wait as it is long past bedtime!
Hugh :) :)
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Hugh You're a gent,
Thanks very much for everything you've done, I'm so grateful.
Michelle ;) :D :) ;D :-*
P.s. will now PM you.
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Hi Michelle,
Here is the 1861 census entry for Albert Pindar that Tuppie found (good eye! I could not see him at all ::) ). Crabtree is his place of birth. With this info, I will have a look for him in previous census records...
1861
RG9/3477/110/9
28 Regent Street, Sheffield
Albert Lucas Pindar, Apprentice, 15, File Cutter, born Crabtree Yorkshire
Living in the household of Christopher Smith, File Cutter, with his wife and 6 children.
MJP
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Brilliant MJP
Thanks for that. I'm relieved he's a file cutter as I'd misread on the marriage certificate as a possible "Pile" cutter. I din't fancy that as an occupation! Phew. ;D ;D ;D
Michelle ;)
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Well, I can't seem to find a likely candidate for him on the 1851. ??? But I did find out that Crabtree is a little part of Brightside Bierlow, on the outskirts of Sheffield. See this http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Sheffield/index.html
MJP
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Goodness, all these unusually named areas in Sheffield. My dad says there were lots of small, but defined places very close to one another with odd titles. Brightside, Crabtree, Crooks, Neeps End, Hills etc
I may have to apply for a birth certificate for Albert PINDER to see whether he was known by any other name at birth. He's a fair way down the list though and I can afford about one or two a month.
Thanks again MJP
Michelle ;)
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Hi.
The 1851 census has an Albert PINDER aged 7 HO107/2336 folio 355 page 6
with a father Edward.
Have to dash now as going out, if no one has posted it for you I will check it when I get back
Tuppie
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1851 census
HO107/2336 folio 355F
address: Totley
Ecclesiastical District: Dore & Totley
Edward PINDER Head M 38 sawyer DBY Hol___field?*
Sarah Wife M 30 DBY Beeley
Emmaly Dau 10 scholar DBY Dore
Louasia Dau 12 scholar DBY Dore
Edwin Son 9 scholar DBY Dore
Albert Son 7 scholar DBY Dore
Walter Son 4 scholar DBY Totley
Salena Dau 1 DBY Totley
*Holmsfield in 1861 index, but one or two extra letters in the middle here.
Emmaly and Louasia as written. I looked for another 'Emmaly'/Emily to compare in the e.d. but this was the only one!
Dore is a long way from Crabtree, so probably not a good candidate :-\
Hugh
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Thanks Hugh and Tuppie,
So as Dore is a good distance from Crabtree and the "father" is still around when Albert's 7-years old, I would've thought that Albert would've put his father on his marriage cert. (if this was our Albert). I'm with Hugh, I don't think it's a good candidate.
Never mind a good try. Thanks again.
Michelle ;)
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Hi All
I'm back from shopping and I agree with Hugh...maybe not as Albert didn't put a fathers name on the certificate.
The 1861 looks a definate as he is listed as Albert Lucas PINDER.
Oh well back to the drawing board.
Tuppie
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Thanks Tuppie,
Yes I'd forgotten, momentarily about the "Lucas" bit - good point.
I ought to be concentrating on his "adopted" son William PINDER too as he was born BINI and will link back to my ggg-granddad.
On a side topic, I've just had contact with a new "relative" on my maternal side. It's my first discovery of someone with a common link. I am so excited I've put a posting on the General Board.
Thanks again.
Michelle ;D
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Hi. Just joined, being about to re-start my family tree after a 30 year break (when I left Sheffield) & noticed this chain of emails.
Giovanni Bini was my GGGGrandfather, via his daughter Sophia Bini (later married Pinder), her son William Pinder, his daugher Maisie Pinder (later married Stones) & her daughter (& my mother) Doreen Vivian Bucklow Niesielski. My notes on him are (the bits in "" are from family stories & possibly incorrect/exaggerated):
GIOVANNI BINI. A Catholic born in Lucca, Italy. Said to be "a Tuscan vineyard owner and sculptor who was said to left Italy to evade war-time military service. His older brother had been killed in the War" Became a British Subject (before 30.3.1851). Occupation in England: Plaster of Paris and artificial stone figure modeller and caster ("Some sculpture is in the Botanical Gardens, Sheffield"). Illiterate -1838.
Also known as: Beni 1838; Beney 1843 and 51; Binney 1845; Benney 1845;49,52; Beany 1852.
Residences:
Oct. 1838 Warwick St, Manchester.
1841 Oriel St, Liverpool.
1843 Wolverhampton.
1844 Sheffield, On Burgess Roll/Electoral Register of Sheff 1852 to at least 1865 and Oct. 1870; qualification: house, shop not mentioned (worked in home).
l845 36 Little Pond St, Sheffield (rented)
1847 Turner's Yard (between 55 and 57), Silver St Head, Sheffield (rented).
1849-52 48 Trafalgar St, Sheffield (demolished, similar to
Canning St). Rented.
1852-6 Court 11, 7 Orange St, Sheffield. Rented.
1857-8 90 Devonshire St, Sheffield. Rented house and shop.
1859 N\T
1860 11 Broomhall St, Sheffield. Not mentioned in Elec.Reg.
1861-2 & 1864-5 151 Devonshire St, Sheffield. Rented.
1863-4 79 & 79 1/2 Division St, Sheffield. Rented house and shop.
1863-8 no79 or 1865-8 no 80 Division St. 1867 no 80 1/2 (Canning St. 79,8O 1/2,81 Trafalgar St). Rented house and shop.
1868 5 Canning St. Rented.
Buried in Grave N13 Rivelin Cemetary, Sheffield.
Married SOPHIA KENNY (born in Dublin, Ireland. Said to be "an Irish doctor's daughter") at St Nicholas Chapel, Copperas Hill, Liverpool. She did not work, but did v fine embroidery with her hair. Buried Grave N13 Rivelin Cemetary?
They had 5 children.........
I have loads more on his descendants & after I have got used to this website shall see if I can post the whole family tree.
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The rest follows:
She had the following children:
WILLIAM
ALBERT GEO Bap 29/l2/1872 at St Marie's Church, Sheffield.
1891 self-employed silver finisher living at 5 Canning St
1913-15 journeyman buffer of 131 Pearl St, Sheffield. Enlisted in 4th Hallamshire (Territorial) Battn, York & Lancs Regt, Sheffield. Served in S Africa 1901. Awarded Volunteer Long Service Medal (for 20 yrs) in 1909. Attended Regimental Dinners, singing at Battn ones. Died of Pneumonia in the 3rd Northern Base Hospital, Ecclesall Rd, Sheffield. Buried in grave 666 Christ Church, Fulwood.
Headstone reads: 39 SERGEANT, A.G.PINDER, YORK & LANCASTER REGT., 14.2.1915.
Married Emma
They had at least 4 children:
Albert of 5 Canning St. Buried in grave 666 Christ Church, Fulwood.
George Arthur. (one son served in 3rd Battn Y & L in WW1?).
ELIZ Bap 9.12.1874 at St. Marie's Church, Sheffield. Died aged less than 1 year. Buried in Grave N13 Rivelin Cemetary?
SOPHIA Bap 1.10.1876 at St. Marie's Church, Sheffield. Died aged less than one.
ARTHUR born 4 yrs after ALP died. Bap 20.7.1881 at St Marie's Church, Sheffield. Silversmith, married Rhoda Waite, lived at 5 Canning St. Arthur died at Netheredge Hospital and buried in common grave 14407Y City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
WILLIAM Born 4 yrs before his mother's marriage. Probably not a child of ALP. In infancy looked after by Giovanni Bini. He became a silversmith (1891 general silversmith(employed)) and worked for Dixons and later Levesley Bros both of Sheffield. In 1920's he started his own business in, or just off Howard St, Sheffield, later entering into partnership with Walter Thickett, after son Percy Pinder left the business. William was RSM York & Lancs (1914-18 attached to Green Howards?). Attended Regimental Dinners which he organised and was Master of Ceremonies, sang at Battalion dinners, dances etc. 19.6.1906 was in escort of five who collected new colours from the King. Awarded Coronation (Geo v and Mary 22.6.1911) Medal & Long Service Medal.
Residences:
Until marrying 5 Canning St.
1891-93/4 20 Vestry St. Sheffield.
1893/4 43 Chester St, Sheffield (demolished).
1893/4-99/1900 8 Canning St,
1899/1900-03/4 85 Eldon St, Sheffield (demolished, terraced house).
1903/4-10/11 42 Slinn St, Crookes, Sheffield (rented).
1910/11-55 32 Melbourne Rd, Crookes, Sheffield (rented).
Died at The Northern General Hospital, Herries Rd, Sheffield and although a Catholic, cremated at The Crematorium, City Rd, Sheff. Left £202 all to his wife (probate Wakefield 16.10.1944 to Mary Ann Pinder).
Married MARY ANN SAVAGE at Darnall Parish Church, Darnall, Sheff. They had six children:
I have a photo of William Pinder in his WW1 RSM's uniform, but no earlier photos. I have a few photos of houses in Sheffield & street plans showing where they lived in Sheffield town centre.
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This bit should be my second post:
CAROLINE Bap. 4.11.1838 at St. Chad's, Rock St, Manchester. Lame,
not from birth. Died single. Buried in Grave N13 Rivelin Cemetary.
TERESA Bap 26.7.1840 at St Nicholas' Chapel, Copperas Hill, Liverpool. Died single. Buried in Grave N13 Rivelin Cemetary.
ANGELO GEO Bap 16.4.1843 at Church of SS Peter & Paul, North St, Wolverhampton.
Occupations: 1861 pupil teacher; 1881 telegraph clerk(Civil
Service) 1871-96 telegraph clerk; 1898-1901 telegraphist;
1902-7 no occupation; 1909 householder.
Residences, probably all rented:
1871-74 5 Canning St, Sheffield. Rented. Demolished.
1876 43 Pear St West, Sheffield (Wm Johnson occupier, AGB rented part?). Demolished small terraced house.
1877-78 20 Bennett St, Sheffield. Demolished, small terraced.
1879-85 51 Woodhead Rd, Sheffield. Demolished, small terraced.
1885/6-87 59 Wolseley Rd, Sheffield.
1887-88 13 Sharrow St, Sheffield.
1887/8-93/4 37 Sharrow St, Sheffield. Rented.
1893/4-96/7 313 Abbeydale Rd, Sheffield.
1896/7-1901/2 78 Sharrow St, Sheffield. Rented.
1901/2-02/3 29 Khartoum Rd, Sheffield.
1902/3-05/6 22 Khartoum Rd, Sheffield.
1905/6-07/8 43 Wadborough Rd, Sheffield.
1907/8-09/10 50 South View Rd, Sheffield.
1909/10-16+ 69 Wake Rd, Sheffield-only AEB. Rented.
Married Ann Eliz Ley of Washington Rd, Sheffield, at St. Marie's RC Church, Norfolk Row, Sheffield. She died at a daughter's home at 33 Harwood St. Sheffield, leaving £209 to be split equally amongst her three daughters.
They had 3/4 children:
Annie Elz married Herbert Farnsworth, journeyman bookbinder of 33 Harwood St. Sheffield.
Forence Louisa married Harry Tazzard Wigfield.
Ellen Beatrice married Frank Wetten piano tuner of 34 Holland Rd,
Sheffield.
Clara Eveline died aged 5 (uncertain whether connected).
SOPHIA
AUSTIN bap 22.12.1850 at St Marie's RC Church Sheffield. Took over his father's business, "but as a result of his drinking the business was lost to a Manchester firm".
Residences:
1874 Division St, Sheffield.
1876 Milton St, Sheffield.
1877-78/9 6 Cross Hunt St, Sheffield (street demolished, small
terraced houses).
1878/9 8 Canning St, Sheffield.
1879/80 8 Gross Hunt St, Sheffield.
Married Ellen Marsh in Nottingham.
They had at least 2 children:
Theresa Bap. 10.6.1874 at St, Marie's Church, Sheffield.
Agnes Bap. 12.1.1876 -do-
Sophia Bap 30.3.1845 at St Marie's Church, Sheffield. Educated at Notre Dame School, Sheffield?
Residences:
1867-8 8O 1/2 Division St, Sheffield.
1872 5 Canning St, Sheffield (rented). She was a shopkeeper there
from at least 1879 until her death. Buried in grave 666 Christ
Church, Brookhouse Hill, Fulwood, Sheffield.
Married Albert Lucas Pinder (birth not reg.) file cutter (and
lodger?) of 6 Canning St at St Marie's Church, Sheffield. He died of Phthisis (T.B. especially of the lungs) at 5 Canning St.
She had the following children:
WILLIAM
My 2nd post follows from here
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Wow, how do you know all this stuff?
Giovanni is my 3 x G.grandfather and Austin BINI (b.1852) was my 2 x great grandfather. I have always wondered why he and Ellen were living separately in 1911, he is only a mile away (in Sheffield), I guess drinking heavily would explain this.
I would love to talk to you more about our shared ancestry.
Michelle
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By the way,
Austin and Ellen (m. Nottingham 1873) had 10 children, only 4 survived into adulthood. Clara who you mention above, d. aged five, was one of their children. At some point they 'fell out' with the Catholic church. My grandmother told me that my "Italian great grandfather, did marble carving in Sheffield town hall". Due to Giovanni's death and the building of the town hall, I assume this must have been my 2 x g.grandfather, Austin.
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Hi Michelle.
I was fortunate that my great aunt, Ivy Pinder (born in 1905) was alive when I started getting interested in the family tree in the 1970s. My late mother knew quite a lot & both had lived in Sheffield for a long time. I was a student in Sheffield with long holidays & had loads of time to spend at the Local Hist Library & wander around taking photos.
From Wiki the marble carving may be a reference to Sheffield Old Town Hall extensions in 1866 (later the High Court) New Town Hall completed in 1896. There is a plaque in the entrance to the present Town Hall to those who served in the Boar War & A Pinder & F Bini are on it.
I am in Sheffield a bit & see on Genes Reunited there are about 18 references to Sheffield newspaper notices for Giovanni & Angelo G Bini between 1850 and 1909; 5 for deaths & the rest for Giovanni selling his products by auction. I shall take copies when I am next there. I think Giovanni had a reasonably successful business at times. All his Sheffield addresses were within the one block & I wonder if some of the slight changes in house numbers were not really moves at all.
Would you mind posting what you have in the way of text from our common ancestor Giovanni to recent times?
Cheers, John
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I have death certs for Giovanni and Sophia (I think for Sophia). I have a birth cert for Caroline, and her death cert. I have a birth cert for Fred (my great grandfather).
Fred BINI and William BINI (Pinder) were first cousins. Fred also made RSM in WW1 and he served in S.Africa, he was called home for the Kings coronation, which was delayed due to appendicitis.
I have Fred's medals and a swagger stick. I have some photos of him too and a comprehensive obituary for him.
Austin and Ellen BINI (nee MARSH), had 10 children, but only 4 made it to adulthood.
Albert Lucas PINDER was born in Crabtree (a village in W.Riding) 2nd March 1846. He was baptised 29th March 1846 at the Anglican Cathedral Church of St.Peter and St.Paul (W.Riding?). His mother was Ann PINDER (b.1829 Ashton-u-Lyne), Ann's mother was Martha PINDER. Ann later married Christopher SMITH (20 years her senior) and they had a further 5 children (Ann, Eliza, Loveney, Margaret and Thomas). I believe Christopher had a daughter from a previous marriage.
Albert and Ann were both listed as File Cutters and Christopher was also a File Cutter.
I private messaged you.
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I shall sort out my documents as soon as I can.
I have a few birth, marriage & death certs, some WW1 soldiers' files from PRO Kew, copies of 1901 & 1911 Census entries, transcriptions of earlier Census entries, photos of as many houses as were standing in the early 1980s, copies of street maps showing the position of individual houses, a copy of the death announcement in the Sheffield papers in 1915 with a photo of Sgt Albert George Pinder.
If Fred Bini was then service no 7076 in the Hallamshires, he is listed on the Town Hall plaque. He is mentioned in the "Tiger & Rose" York & Lancs Journal as attending the annual Sgts' Mess dinners pre WW1 with the Pinders. In the late 1970s I saw in the Sgts Mess at Endcliffe Hall, Sheffield group photos of pre WW1 Sgts & I think Bini & Pinders were on it. It is still a TA Regt HQ & I shall see if I can have a look at it, but it was in a frame so probably wont copy well. Many years ago the York & Lancs Museum in Rotherham had not fully sorted out their papers, but a copy may be there.
Just checked my inbox & have not received your message, possibly because I have not made enough entries on the site.
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I have tried again to PM you and it says the message was sent successfully. Fingers crossed.
Michelle
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P.S. Fred was indeed service no. 7076 One of his SA medals states:
7076 CORPL: F. BINI. VOL. Coy Y. & L. REGT
On silver “pins across the medals it says from top one : SOUTH AFRICA 1902
SOUTH AFRICA 1901
TRANSVAAL
ORANGE FREE STATE
CAPE COLONY
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Hi All,
Albert Lucas Pinder would be my GG grandfather. My mother was a Pinder before her marriage. How confident are you that he was a file cutter, not a tile cutter? I can remember in the 1960s my mother pointing out an old Sheffield shop doorway which had the name in mosaic tiles and my mother saying that someone in our family had made it.
Kind regards, D
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Hi Dinah
I have ALP's death certificate & am sure he was a file cutter who died of a disease of the lung. File cutters were a fairly common occupation during his working life, with the problem of inhaling the dust. The tiles may have been made by Giovanni Bini, his father-in-law or perhaps Austin Bini (Michelle B may be able to help with Austin).
I shall now post on the Kenny string.
Cheers,
John Bucklow
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Hi Dinah and John,
I also felt the Albert Lucas Pinder was a File Cutter, but only from deciphering records/censuses etc. I'm happy to discover more, or that he followed a different profession.
WRT Giovanni BINI, I have only found evidence to support him being a plaster figure manufacturer, despite terrazzo tiling etc being a common profession among the Italian artisans. As far as I am aware Austin (Giovanni's youngest son) was a marble mason, but he did take over Giovanni's Sheffield business after he died, running it down according to anecdotal evidence.
My grandmother told me my Italian 3 x great grandfather did some of the marble carving on Sheffield town hall, but dates prove this could not be the case, so its more likely to have been Austin.
Michelle
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Hi All
Just arrived at this thread because I'm researching all the WW1 casualties in Fulwood Graveyard or Memorial (some are on both.) I've lived in Sheffield for 40+ years.
What follows is what I've found. It's mostly covered in the thread above, but worth repeating as confirmation.
Albert George Pinder (b 1873) was baptised at St Marie's - the Roman Catholic cathedral for the RC diocese of Hallam. This because, Sophia Bini - his mother - was of Italian descent.
Albert Lucas was file cutter creating the edges on the flat of files so there was lots of dust in the environment. He died in 1876.
Sophia is in the census for 1881 - but indexed on Find My Past as 'Prider'. Correction sent to FindMyPast
Interesting that Fred Bini & AG were Territorials together. were they cousins? I'd also picked up the Boer war service
Crabtree is a district in Sheffield near the Northern General Hospital
There was a picture of AG in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph of 20 February 1915 Page 12 of AG with a brief caption.
Does anyone know the cause of death?
SS Peter and Paul church was the Sheffield Church, but with the town's expansion, other parishes were created. It is now the CofE Cathedral
Interesting that Canning Street was associated with the family for many years.
The grave at Fulwood has a CWGC headstone, so can be viwed onthe CWCG website. If anyone wants an original JPG of the grave, please ask
Hope that helps.
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Hi
Thank you for all the information.
John Bucklow has information about AG PINDER. Yes, he was Fred BINI's cousin. Sophia PINDER (nee BINI), was Fred's Dad's sister.
Albert George PINDER died of Pneumonia in the 3rd Northern Base Hospital, Ecclesall Rd, Sheffield. He is buried in grave 666 Christ Church (Anglican), Fulwood.
Headstone reads: 39 SERGEANT, A.G.PINDER, YORK & LANCASTER REGT., 14.2.1915.
I know that Fred BINI (my great grandfather) was Anglican and although his parents were baptised and married as RCs it appears they fell out with the church at some point.
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One of the other PINDER brothers, William, also served alongside Fred and Albert in the Hallamshire Battalion (1/4 York and Lancasters).
John and I have photos with both Fred and William on.
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Hi Kep54,
I'm Albert George Pinder's great grand- daughter. Thank you for confirming the information. I also have his War death letter addressed is to his wife Emma, the memorial plaque and scroll.
AG Pinder had 2 sons & a daughter. His daughter Beatrice Sophia had no children. His son George adopted a child and his other son Clifford had just one daughter, who was my mother.
I didn't know anything about the Pinder Bini family history at all until I came across this website and started communicating with Michelle & John! It's very interesting. I would still love to trace the Bini family back in Italy.