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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: swa on Thursday 19 April 07 02:07 BST (UK)
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Is St Patrick's Church of Ireland, Ballymacarrett in County Down?
I am told Ballymacarrett is in East Belfast - doesn't that then make it a part of County Antrim?
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
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Is St Patrick's Church of Ireland, Ballymacarrett in County Down?
I am told Ballymacarrett is in East Belfast - doesn't that then make it a part of County Antrim?
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
Hello Sarah,
You are quite right. Ballymacarrett is in East Belfast which qualifies as Co. Antrim these days.
Chris
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Thanks Christopher,
Do you know which County it would have been a part of in 1888?
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
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Thanks Christopher,
Do you know which County it would have been a part of in 1888?
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
r
It's mentioned in Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Ireland, 1837, Sarah. BALLYMACARRETT, a town and parish, forming part of the suburbs of BELFAST
(Co. Antrim), in the barony of UPPER CASTLEREAGH, County of DOWN
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This is all very confusing for an Aussie girl! ???
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
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Sorry to put a spanner in the works!
I have just looked at the Rainey/Robb marriage on Emerald Ancestors and here is what it says
2/2/1888 Robert Rainey/Annie Robb
in St. Patricks Ballymacarrett Church of Ireland
PARISH: Knockbreda
Civil District: Belfast
COUNTY: Down
Most of my family births in East Belfast say Co. Down.
Best wishes, Rosemary
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P.S. You can see a photograph of St. Patricks church on Ros Davies site in Knockbreda Parish.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rosdavies/index.html
Rosemary
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Thank you very much to both Christopher and RosemaryJoan...
I think I can now safely reference Ballymacarrett as being a part of County Down in 1888.
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
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My Great grandparents were married in 1893 and my grandfather was born 1906 in BALLYMACARRETT and on both of these certificates were from civil district Belfast, County Antrim.
The change in county must have occurred between 1888 and 1893.
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Thanks for your help,
You must be right that the change-over occurred after 1888...
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
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This is all very confusing for an Aussie girl! ???
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
It's confusing for this Scottish boy too! My 2 x great-grandmother Agnes Petticrew and her siblings were brought across to Scotland from the Belfast area in the 1830s by their widowed mother Jane Petticrew, née Murray, after the death of her husband Archibald. I thought I had found every member of the family in the various Scottish censuses, where their place of birth is given simply as "Ireland", but now I've discovered that Agnes had another sister I didn't know about, called Jane Petticrew, who gives her place of birth in various Scottish censuses as Co. Antrim, Ireland.
At about the same time as I discovered Jane's existence, I finally managed (after about 20 years of looking!) to find their mother Jane Murray's death-certificate, which gives her parents as William Murray, stonemason, and Nancy Howat. I have a copy of Martin's 1841 directory of Belfast, which lists a William Murray, "stone-cutter", in Scotch Row, which to judge from my Belfast map is in Ballymacarrett. Looking for Howats on the IGI, anywhere in Ireland, I got 8 hits, nearly all of them in "Ballymacarrett, Co. Down". I suspect Ballymacarrett was where my Petticrews lived before my 3 x gt.grandfather Archibald Petticrew died and his widow Jane Murray brought the family over to Scotland. And the fact that one of the daughters, Jane, gives her place of birth as Co. Antrim rather than Down, just seems to show that even the locals were unsure whether they were in Down or Antrim.
Harry
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Hi Sarah
Just wanted to add to the confusion. My mother was born in Ballymacarrett. She and two siblings came to US in the 1920s and 30s. They always said they were from County Down tho they did join the County Antrim Society in NY. (I don't even know if there was a "Down" group).
As to current designation, the Irish Times Ancestor site and Ulster Ancestors places Ballymacarret in County Down.
Good luck with your search. S
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Maybe this will help.
The town of Belfast was established on the County Antrim side of the Lagan river,many moons ago, and all Belfast addresses then and now are County Antrim (ie Tulycarnet Library Kinross Avenue Belfast, County Antrim, BT5 7GH Tel 028 90485079)
Even though Tillycarnet Library is located in County Down by a few miles, it's POSTAL ADDRESS is County Antrim.
Hope this helps
OTTO
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Trying to find out exactly where Ballymacarret is, I came across this site.
According to Matier's Belfast Directory 1835-6 which I'm trying to catalogue, it was at that stage (at least) a suburb of Belfast and Belfast has always been in Co. Antrim to my knowledge
Billyblue
Brisbane, Australia
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Part of Belfast is in Co. Down and if you read back through this thread it looks as though Lewis' Topographical Dictionary (1837) mentions this.
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Its an area at the bottom of the Newtownards Rd. in East Belfast - Dee Street, Templemore Avenue etc. & is quite close to the docks. Alot of the shipyard workers would have lived there
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Your issue here is that Belfast is classed as County Antrim so any reference to anything happening at any time after the 1880s in Ballymacarrett will state it as County Antrim. Prior to that Ballymacarret was a village in its own right and not part of Belfast. However the county boundary for Antrim/Down is the river Lagan which seperates East Belfast from the rest of the city. Ballymacarrett, although part of Belfast is County Down and its citizens would regard themselves as County Down.
The boundaries of Ballymacarrett traditionally would be the railway line, heading east until it meets the river Connswater which provides the east boundary travelling south until it meets the Beersbridge Road heading west onto Castlereagh street and then Mountpottinger Road, which heads north and stops just short of the Bridgend flyover, which then meets the railway and completes the perimiter. The spine of the area is the Newtownards Road. This can be easily viewed from Google maps.
Until the 1960s the business of the area and shops, pubs, offices, churches and schools allowed the area to be self sufficient with the vast majority of the citizens of the working in the Shipyard, ropeworks and various other local factories and shops. The area went into steep decline in the 1960s through various factors. Most of the heavy industry which employed the community closed down, the affect on the local economy hit the Newtownards Road businesses which began to suffer, the onset of the troubles further isolated the area and large numbers of younger families in the community left for better work, housing and general social conditions in the surrounding towns. The money in the area moved out and the emergence of Shopping centres all but killed the area commercially by the 80s. The population that remained were largely ageing or low income. The last thirty years have seen much of the old Victorian housing bulldozed and replaced while the turn of the century saw plans for a Titanic quarter, providing luxury apartment blocks along the Lagan and improved housing and social conditions in the streets off the Newtownards Road in a bid to try and bring more affluent familys back to the area. To date this has been only marginally successful and the area remains largely down at heel in appearance.
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It's confusing for this Scottish boy too! My 2 x great-grandmother Agnes Petticrew and her siblings were brought across to Scotland from the Belfast area in the 1830s by their widowed mother Jane Petticrew, née Murray, after the death of her husband Archibald. I thought I had found every member of the family in the various Scottish censuses, where their place of birth is given simply as "Ireland", but now I've discovered that Agnes had another sister I didn't know about, called Jane Petticrew, who gives her place of birth in various Scottish censuses as Co. Antrim, Ireland.
At about the same time as I discovered Jane's existence, I finally managed (after about 20 years of looking!) to find their mother Jane Murray's death-certificate, which gives her parents as William Murray, stonemason, and Nancy Howat. I have a copy of Martin's 1841 directory of Belfast, which lists a William Murray, "stone-cutter", in Scotch Row, which to judge from my Belfast map is in Ballymacarrett. Looking for Howats on the IGI, anywhere in Ireland, I got 8 hits, nearly all of them in "Ballymacarrett, Co. Down". I suspect Ballymacarrett was where my Petticrews lived before my 3 x gt.grandfather Archibald Petticrew died and his widow Jane Murray brought the family over to Scotland. And the fact that one of the daughters, Jane, gives her place of birth as Co. Antrim rather than Down, just seems to show that even the locals were unsure whether they were in Down or Antrim.
Harry
Hi Harry
I have an Elizabeth Pettigrew (Petticrew?) who I think was born in Scotland c1800. I just wondered if there was any chance she was connected to your family? She married William McCrae and they had a daughter Mary c1826.
Jane
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My father was born in the Ballymacarett area in 1917 and so too were all his siblings. St Patrick's was the family church, and as a child I spent most of my summers there. I always understood that this part of Belfast, i.e. the Newtownards Road was in County Down.
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Hi there! My two greats grandparents came out to Queensland in 1863, with 7 children and despite a measles epidemic all of them survived the trip! They were on the "Montmorency" and my great grandfather was born here. All the children were baptised in St Patrick's Ballymacarret Co Down. We are assuming that Samuel and Elizabeth (nee Roseman) Reid, were married there in 1840. Can anyone help me with finding out more!! I live in Queensland Australia and it is really hard searching from this end of the world!!
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According to the PRONI website they hold copies of St Patrick’s parish records. Baptisms 1827 – 1893 and marriages 1827 – 1900 (with a small gap 1872-73). Perhaps someone will look them up for you, but if not you can order copies of most of the microfilm parish records in to your nearest LDS library, for a small fee.
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Here's a conundrum for all you Ballymacarrett experts. In 1915 a young man keen to serve his country enlisted in Belfast. His daddy found out and 59 days later he was un-enlisted as he had only been born in 1898. His records show he was born in Ballymacarrett in August of that year and that his father lived at 20 Campbell Park Avenue, Belmont.
He had given his name as Samuel Haire Pentland and his father's as William John. You might think that with two censuses on-line during his short life he would be easy to trace but you would be wrong. There is no trace of any Samuel of the correct age in either 1901 or 1911 and neither is there a William John who fits as his father.
It may be he was less than honest with his name, as he had been with his age. Perhaps he was not even a Pentland but one might have expected the authorities to note any discrepancies on his record as they did with his date of birth but none were noted.
Clearly, I would be delighted if any of you good folks can produce an answer but my reason for posting here was to add to the boundary debate. there has already been one correct answer - The Lagan was the boundary between Down and Antrim. It did not change in the 1880s, however as this chap was born in 1898 in Ballymacarret, Co. Down. No surprise since the borough of Belfast would then have been very much smaller and parts of modern day Belfast governed as a part of either Antrim or Down. Postal addresses are very modern and bear little relation to the boundaries recognisable from the nineteenth century.
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Hi
1918 street directory on Lennonwylie has a W.J.Haire (fitter)living at 20 Campbell Pk Avenue
jim
and an A McMordie(school teacher) living there in 1910.
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Hi
perhaps they wernt living in Ireland at the time of the census?(in the army?)
Theres a William J Haire who signed the Covenant and gives his address as 13h Ramsdens Dock Rd,late of Seaview Street Belfast,(if thats of any help?)Do you know what Williams wife was called?
jim
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I think this is your Samuel
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Grampian_Street/1222117/
and here he is in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Hollywood_Urban/Spencer_Street/233475/
Rosemary Joan
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Here is William John in 1901. Note he is a widower
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/St__George_s_Ward_Belfast/Gay_Street/955692/
RosemaryJoan
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William John Pendleton labourer,father George, painter13 Cullingtree Place, married Ellen Marshall, father Samuel,ropemaker 10 Skipton Street on 8/3/1889 in Mountpottinger Methodist Church. This is in Ballymacarrett.
Samuel Pendleton
Registration District: Belfast
Event Type: BIRTHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1898
Estimated Birth Year:
Age (at Death):
(this is from LDS)
RosemaryJoan
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I think this would be Samuel's mother
Ellen Pendleton
Registration District: Belfast
Event Type: DEATHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1898
Estimated Birth Year: 1867
Age (at Death): 31
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and lastly, here is William John, remarried
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/St__George_s/Teutonic_Street/156699/
Rosemary Joan
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DETECTIVE ROSEMARY SOLVES ANOTHER MYSTERY!!! :D :D
Hi
theres a record on rosdavies site for a George Pentleton aged 21, Knockbreda, son of John Pentleton,married a Sarah Corbett, 15th Feb 1866 ,Ballymacarrett, which may be of interest to you.
jim
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Well, what can I say other than thank you - once again the value of local knowledge (including that of how the records work) wins the day. that information gave me three generations of the family and takes me back to the mid nineteenth century.
Just to make things more interesting, however, here's another bit to add to the mystery which I have only just found:
Ireland's Memorial Records lists
PENTLAND, WILLIAM. Reg. No. 9080. Rank, Rifleman, Royal Irish Rifles, 1st Batt. ; died of wounds, home, August 26, 1916 ; born Ballymacarrett, Belfast.
whose servcie number connects him to
Rifleman Service No: 9080 Date of Death: 26/08/1916 Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Rifles Grave Reference B. 638. Cemetery CANTERBURY CEMETERY, KENT
It would be hard to believe that he is not a brother of Samuel but the censuses don't suggest it.
I tried checking the Ulster Covenant but there appear to be no male Pentlands (although there are two females) in East Belfast, i also tried wild card searches but it seems the search engine isn't up to it.
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There are plenty of male Pentlands from east Belfast that signed the Covenenant.
eg
Samuel Pentland Chatsworth Street
Samuel Pentland Portallo Street
Robert Pentland Portallo Street
Valentine Pentland Portallo Street
W Pentland Clonallon Street
Thomas Pentland Hornby Street
Most are recorded as South Belfast as that was where they signed it.
Many men were not in their own areas on that day as they would have been taking part in organising the signing.
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I don't know if this will show - a map of County Down 1851-91 clearly showing Ballymacarrett within Down. http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/oirthear/downmaps.htm
I am happy to see this as having ancestors in Belfast including Ballymacarrett - I was becoming extremely confused.
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The county boundaries have not changed since that time. The county used for the postal address is were the delivery office usually is. For instance if you look at the map you will see that boardmills and Drumbo are clearly in County Down buy as they are delivered from Lisburn delivery office in County Antrim they are classed postally as County Down, another one is, Aghalee County Antrim, Magheralin County Down, and Lurgan County Armagh, these are all delivered by the Craigavon office and therefore all get a County Armagh postal address. Belfast is different for some reason, most of Belfast is delivered from an office in County Antrim but East Belfast is delivered from an office in East Belfast county Down but still gets a County Antrim postal address.
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:)sorry, guess I got to the dance a bit late. But in 1860 according to Griffith's valuation published at that time Ballymacarret (spelled that way) was in co. Down, in Knockbreda Parish. I am interested in David Galbraith, b 1811 of McMillan's Lane of that town.
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Yes, it's Co. Down- http://www.townlands.ie/down/ballymacarret/
Welcome to Rootschat, billpg :)
Best to start a new topic looking for your Galbraiths on the ANTRIM board- all Belfast queries are under Antrim even though a small portion of Belfast is in Co. Down.
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Except I am looking at Galbraiths who crept up (or down) to Kilkeel.
Posted on behalf of Bill who had clicked on the "report to moderator" button in error ;)
Sarah
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Bill started a new topic yesterday on DOWN board looking for his Galbraiths-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745497.msg5926322#msg5926322
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Hi
Been reading this with interest as I'm am researching my husbands grandmother who was a bertha Pendleton and her mother was also Bertha maiden name McCourtney.
On finding information I see she married a William john Pendleton who was widowed and finding him when I looked up his first wife he had 3 girls and one son.
It looks like his daughter Elizabeth had a son George out of wedlock and liked in Gaye street
In the 1911 qq census bertha Pendleton is living with her daughter in the McCourtney house hold but the name on the census is wrong
Any help in working this puzzle out would be great as my husbands grandmother led us to believe she had no siblings at all
Hils
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Hils, not sure what your post has to do with this thread but best to stick to one topic per subject to avoid confusion. Here's the new topic for Bertha that you started yesterday-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=823450.msg6866746#msg6866746