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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: poppysmum on Monday 23 April 07 18:43 BST (UK)
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Hi
My father is researching the history of his house and the local area. He lives near Toward Point near Dunoon, in a parish called Inverchaolain. We have some info about the residents of his house but we would love to hear from anyonw who is researching in this area.
I don't want to give the name of his house for privacy reasons but we are interested in learning more about the entire area anyway!
caroline
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hi,
replying to my own post!
I just wondered if anyone knew of any other sites i could post this question on, maybe one which would be more specific to this area?
thanks, caroline
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Hi Caroline
Dunnoon actually has a family history centre in the town centre but the only sue way of finding out who louved there before your dad is to ask to see the deeds.
Am assuming he has bought the house and therefore the deeds will be with the lawyer that did the conveyancing work.
Ann
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Hi Caroline, if you contact the archivist for Argyll and Bute Council, now probably Jackie Davenport, archives[at]argyll-bute.gov.uk (replace [at] with @) you may obtain some information through the county Evaluation Roll which was updated every few years. I have gone this way to obtain information about my gr.grandfather´s situation and employer and been given good service.
See:
http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/content/leisure/localhistory/introductiontoarchives
Guid hunting,
Thrall
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Might be able to help you with some detail but certainly with an overall and detailed description of the area . I also have at home a very early photograph of the original houses.
Castle House Museum Dunoon.
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I'm sorry if I'm doing the wrong thing here. This is my first entry and I'm not sure of the procedures. I can't help on the original topic but was interested in the reply from the Castle House Museum. (Should I be addressing my query here or somewhere else?)
My gg-grandparents were on a croft at Stronyaraig, just out from Inverchaolain.
Archibald Brown and Jane Weir had seven children: Duncan 1810, Mary 1811, Archibald 1813, John 1815, Janet 1818, Alexander 1821 and Jane 1824. John came to Australia in 1854 and he is my great grandfather.
Archibald's parents were Archibald Brown and Mary Mackellar (various spellings) and Jane's were Duncan Weir and Janet Harkness.
I am researching anything I can find on the family and am interested in information about Inverchaolain and Stronyaraig. Any images of these areas would be like a goldmine for me.
Heather
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I do not have a lot of time to give you a fuller reply but you have a famous ancestor. Janet Harkness was the first born child of Thomas Harkness and the first of his 3 wives Mary Iver "a native of nether Cowal" Janet was born 22nd. February 1755.
Thomas commonly called "An Gall Ruadh" the Red Stranger came to this area in the early 1700's. There was an article about him in the Scots Magazine as far back as 1808. He was the first person to winter sheep on the hillsides. He amassed a fortune. His remains are in Kilmun churchyard and he has relatives still in Dunoon. I have quite a bit of information about his very extensive family in a rare book called "the History of Cowal"
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Janet and her husband Duncan Weir of Invervegan had a family of 6 sons and 6 daughters.
In 1808 Thomas had " 67 descendants now living"
If I get time I will try and scan the three pages that refer to this large family.
Thomas's policy, which made him a wealthy man was to " to sell a' and buy nane"
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Thank you Museum Man 2!!
I can't believe how fortunate I am that you have that sort of information available on my family going back so far. It opens up so many more pathways for me. I went to Scotlands People tonight and found the will of Thomas Harkness.
Once again, THANK YOU.
Heather
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On a loosely related subject, does anyone have experience of surname changes in Inverchaolain parish around 1760?
I am researching a family more recently named Brown for whom there is circumstantial evidence accumulating of a posible family name change from McGilmichal around 1760. For the best example I have two children born to couples with matching husband's forename and wife's full name about two years apart from Kilmichael. I understand that Kilmichael is a very small locality in Glen Fyne which does not exist any more so it is a very large coincidence.
There are several other couples in the same general area that exhibit similar matches either side of the 1760 line.
Also,
Regarding place names, is there likely to be any relationship between what appears to be Goistan-Ionfarge in an 18th century register and the current Goranansaig Farm?
Regards,
David Bailey
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Hello David and others
On the subject of similar place names around Loch Striven, I, too, had been considering Goirtan..asaig and first wondered whether it could be the same place as Goirtanlaois(t)ge. However, I have since realised they are different settlements in the same area.
Goirtan...asaig is close to Kilmichael as you say, while I think Goirtanlaoisge is what showed as Gartan Laoisge on an 1832 map. I now think that must be further north, between Invervegain and (cnoc) Lecknagall, so definitely two different settlements. Gone from view now, though there is still a Garden Wood on almost the exact spot.
So is your GoirtanIonfarge another settlement altogether, or merely yet another spelling /interpretation of Goirtanlaoisge, am wondering now.
Trying to trace ancestors of Archibald McKellar and More NcEwn who raised their children at Goirtan Laoisge in the 1750s and 1760s, the family migrating to Troustan on the other side of Loch Striven by the 1780s.
After examining the local McEwns, I'm now considering whether More might be an unrecorded daughter of Duncan McEwn from Kilmichael who married Mary Ferguson on Bute in 1735. They had children at Goirtan..asaig and Kilmichael.
Hence my trail of these Goirtan settlements.
Hoping to hear more of the history of this area, particularly migration and or clearances of the population.
Katie
The Netherlands
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David again,
I, too, would be interested in hearing more about possible name changes between McKilmichal and Brown. My 4 x great grandmother Janet McKellar was from Loch Striven and her brother Duncan McKellar married a Margaret Brown in 1784 who is hard to find in earlier documents. Your suggestion might explain that.
Katie
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Hello Museum Man and others
I quite understand your time's at a premium, but I'm interested in what you say. You mention Thomas Harkness, his daughter Janet and her husband Duncan McNuiar in Invervegain.
When my 4xgreat grandmother Janet McKellar married Patrick Cl(e)ark, in 1781, he was said to be from Glendaruel, but presently servant to Duncan McNuiar tenant in Invervegain.
If there is anything on McKellars in the Loch Striven area, I should be interested to learn where I might find out more.
Thank you,
Katie
The Netherlands
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I also have relatives from Inverchaolin. John Munn who married Mary Leitch. She was from Kilmodan and her father was Alexander Leitch and mother Mary McNuir/Weir. John died in Greenock in 1856 his parents were given as James and Ann Carmichael Munn. There is a marriage for an Ann Michael which could be his mother I think his father was James Munn and marriage about the same time for an Ann Brown whose children fit in with the age of John Munn. I wonder if there could have been a mistake in the records.
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David, Hoping I could reply to you via email as I have a lot of info on the Kilmodan link and your Browns. We may be distantly related. If you know how to connact me, then please do so. I am new to this site and can't work out how to do any more than this link. Heather.
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Hi
I am researching my husbands family history. We still live here in Colintraive, but even for us the old place names can sometimes be confusing. I found several of the ancestors children born in Kilmichael but baptised at Inverchoalain in the 1700's. There was a Kilmichael House/Form at Loch Striven which I found on the Lamount-Young website as follows:
quote
Throughout 1753 Colin Lamont of Knockdow was more usefully employed in negotiating the purchase of the farm of Kilmichael, on which the present mansion-house of Knockdow stands.
unquote.
Gortonansaig is a farm close to the Nato refueling jetty at Loch Striven.
Our family is Clark, but lots of Brown's, McLean, White etc ... all from Dunoon or Inverchaolain....
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Hi
I read this with a great deal of excitement and interest as I am also descended from Janet Harkness and Duncan Weir. I am descended through their daughter Janet who married a Turner. The Turner family eventaully came to Victoria Australia where quite a few stayed. However, some went up to New South Wales and it is through them that I am descended (we eventually ended back up in Victoria as my Grandpa was in the Navy and married my Grandmother who lived here. I am more than happy to share what I have with anyone related or interested. I am just miffed I didn't find this link 6 months ago when I was living in the UK!
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Hi,
Firstly, great information. I have been looking at the Mcgilledonich, Mcildonich, Mcgildonie, Mcildonie, Donie and Downie families in Inverchaolin area and in particular along the western shore of Loch Striven. I noticed a few of the different surname as the wives of some of the names I have been researching. There is too much information to post here, so I have included a url http://downiesurname.yolasite.com/mcgildonie-donie-and-downie-in-inverchaolain.php.
Some example are of the information on the site:
Balliemore:
1750 – Mcgildonie 28/01/1750 MCGILDONIE ARCHIBALD FINLAY MCGILDONIE/JANET NCKILLAR
Stronyaraig:
1698 – Mcildonich Mclldonich, Meldonich, in Stronyerraig, par. of Dunoon, d. Mar. 1698; Mary Ochlerech, relict; Dougald, Archibald, John, Alexander and Katherine, children 27 Feb. 1699. Argyll Register of Inventories 1693-1702 and THE COMMISSARIOT OF ARGYLL. Register of Inventories (Ref)
1740 - Mcgildonie 22/07/1740 MCGILDONIE ARCHIBALD JOHN MCGILDONIE/MORE NCP.
1747 – Mcgildonie 20/08/1747 MCGILDONIE FINLAY JOHN MCGILDONIE/MORE NCPHATRICK
1748 – Mcgildonie 27/11/1748 MCGILDONIE DUNCAN JOHN MCGILDONIE/MORE NCFATRICK
For the Brown surname I have come across a couple of M'Ilduin families, but mostly from Stillaig Mor. If there is anything I can assist with please let me know.
Regards
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Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the monumental inscriptions in the Kilmodan Churchyard. I am particularly interested in those of the Buchanans and the Blacks. The Blacks are on four massive stones in an cast iron enclosure towards the back of the yard. The Buchanans or MacChananichs are to the left of the door, clustered in a group. Thanks. These families were connected by marriage, at least once, when Archibald Black married Janet MacChananich in 1785.
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Hi
I am living in Colintraive and lately went to the graveyard at Kilmoden and saw the enclosure with the Black family headstones. There are no inscriptions available but if you want, I can go one day and make pictures for you. Just let me know which stones (I know the Blacks and the Buchanans, but I do not know if there are any others ...
The stones of the Black family are badly damaged in some places, but I will make closeup so that you can decipher them easily
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Thanks for the offer. I had a go at doing that, but arrived minutes too late. The best time it seems for photographing inscriptions such as these is when the sun is shining at a steep angle across the face of the monument so the letters cast a shadow. I only realised this the last day I was in the area and got to the graveyard to watch it happening. I have had a close look at my photographs, taken just moments later, and I can make out some of the lettering. What interests me about this particular set of graves is the provenance, and the detailed family business inscribed. Since a lot of that is now missing, I was hoping someone would have a copy of the inscriptions before the ravages of time had done their damages. I was wondering whether any of the Black money from Australia had financed the building of the monuments, their is reference to Australia in the name of Capt. Thomas Charles Addis of the Australian navy at the bottom of one of the 4.
Thanks again.
Kevin Brewer
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Kevin
Tomorrow I will go to Kilmodan graveyard (need to look for some graves myself) and transscribe the Black family stones. I remember there was mentioning of Australia on one. Here in Colintraive, we have Roderick Neil Black, one of the descendants, living. Next time I see him I will ask if he knows more or ... may be he still has aunts etc living who know more! If you contact me by email at danielle at clark hyphen debisschop dot co dot uk then I will email you back as soon as I have spoken to Roddy (that's how we call him) and also what I did transcribe
Besdt regards from Colglen (Colintraive - Glendaruel)
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Is this the same family that had property in the early 19thC at Garrochoran which is now just off the B836, the single track road that goes up the side of Glentarsan?
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In the early 1800's Garrochoran was still owned by James Currie (it belonged to the Curries or MacMhurrich family for several centuries and was the seat of the Curries in Cowal together with Coraichaive.. better said the whole glen!. Their property stretched from the Holy Loch to Loch Striven). James Currie was the one who built the new house of Garrochoran there the same as is still standing today!
James Currie's wife was a former French Countess. There is the story that recounts how a young french girl who was her personal maid, got lost in the surrounding hills and met a cold and lonely death. It is her ghost that returns to Garrochoran House seeking comfort. Each time we pass Garrochoran, my husband tells how the children living there in the 1970's told them about the ghost living in the house but they did not know the story!
The who of Clachaig and the glen belonged to that James Currie. It were the Curries who feud Dalenamonie to the Downie's for distilling and also Gortan Dhu to Robert Sheriff to erect the powder mill. Only after the death of James Currie in 1849 the land got parcelled off bit by bit.
Anybody wanting to learn more about the Cowal Curries, an excellent book is With Sword and Harp by W.M. Currie of Balilone ... excellent!
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I was last week at the Inverchaolain Manse. They have there a book about the place names of Inverchaolain written by Amelia (I think it is Amelia) Lamont, who was the last of the Lamont's of Knockdow, for the Gaelic Society of Inverness. I only photographed a few pages of it. Kilmichael is the name given to the whole Lamont of Knockdow estate at Loch Striven. Originally it was the piece of land on which Knockdow mansion now stands.
When somebody finds Breingortan or Brainaghoirtan of Kilmichael in the OPR's ... she describes this as the 4 fields behind Kockdow House with the numbers 245 251 254 257 on the 25 inch os map.
She also describes Gortanansaig which was the same as the early Gortanasick, Gortan Ionsaig. She mentions there are a few other spelling variations such as Gortanionsaig etc. Gortanansaig farm is the large farm just at Knockdow House.
Kilmarnock is the hill behind Knockdow House. She also describes the two Brackleys (beg and more) .
It is really an excellent booklet but unfortunately very rare! I might go back to the manse and make pictures of every page as to help with the placing of old names on the Inverchaolain map!
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I have a document or two from the SNA in Edinburgh that suggests the Harknesses were at Garrochoran on 29th March 1809. The Thomas Harkness the document refers to was a Factor loco tutoris for the children of Archibald Black who died October 1806. I have also seen the will of Thomas's father which has him as a Tacksman. Looking at the map there are two houses in close proximity, one either side of the B836, one is now on the OS 25000 map called Woodside, the other is Ardtaraig. Balliemore is farther up the road at the head of Loch Striven. Tarsan Burn is now the dam Loch Tarsan, but there used to be a farm in the Glen called Glentarsan. Was it inundated? I don't understand who the landlords of these places were, who held them from the Duke of Argyll?
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By the way, there are two Braingoirtan's in Inverchaolain, one on each site of Loch Striven. The parish records make the difference by stating Braingortan of Kilmichel or Braingortan of Troustan.
Please note that when used of Kilmichel or something else, this still means in this parish ... else it is mentioned it is in the parish of .... ! As long as it does not say it is Kilmichel in the Parish of Bute or in thr Parish of Kilmichell Glassary then it is in the parish of Inverchaolain! The same with other localities ...
These rules are applicable to all old parish records ... if the location was not in the parish it mentions in which other parish it is!
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The Currie family owned Garrachoran and lived there part of the year. Around the main house were many more houses were servants lived and also farmers, working on the estate. The village of Clachan did not exist at that time. That came only into existance with the Powder Mills. Many of the Garrochoran buildings no longer exist. Some are now part of the Clachan village, from others one can only see the remains of foundations, walls etc or even nothing!
A tacksman is a middle man, who rents himself from the landlord a part of the estate and rents it to others. Sometimes a tacksman does not even lie on the estate he is tackman off!
At the time of the Powder Mill, there was even an Inn at the start of the road to the main Garrachoran House! Of this Inn, nothing can be seen today. There is a nice story of how a funeral procession stopped at this inn for refreshments. They let the horse pulling the cart graze while they drank a few drams before continuing to Kilmun to bury the deceased. When they finally arrived in Kilmun they discovered they had forgotten the coffin at the Inn at Clachaig ...
There was indeed a settlement at Glen Tarsan. Most of it got inundated when the dam was built. Only the remains of what looks of a sheep-pen is visible today.
I have an old map of Loch Striven ...
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Thanks for the info gc1660. Did the Curries hold the land from Argyll? Argyll held his land from the monarch of the time, but did it extend as far as the places we are talking about? There seemed to be Campbells under every stone; they held Glendaruel in the early 19th C, one dying in about 1803, his successor in 1812. Would you have any idea whether the tacks for this land still exist and where? Did the Curries send any one to Australia, there are some who were squatters in the Port Phillip district of NSA(now Victoria).
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Hi
Most of the land in Cowal did belong to the Lamonts at first. They were the main clan here. No need to say the Campbell's tried to get hold of the land of the Lamonts throughout the centuries … you even had the Lamont massacre in Dunoon in the 1600's upon which the Campbells appropriated all the Lamont lands but after the trials, the Lamonts got most of it back but not everything.
The Curries were originally the bards of the McDonalds. At first they received the lands of Kilberry from the Lord of the Isles and that is where there Bard School was located (back in the 1300's!). At that time their lands were mainly Knapdale and naturally Islay area. Then they received some land in South Kintyre all close to Dunaverty from the Lord of the Isles. That was in the 1400's. No need to say that James IV gave the Earl of Argyll charge of the territories of the Lord of the Isles in 1499 ... after the abolishment of the Lordship of the Isles in 1493. The MacMhuirrich being on the wrong site they lost the lands in Kintyre as well as in Knapdale.
Donald McMhuirrich held land in Bute from the Socttish King from 1496. That is when they got know as the Barons os Bute or Balilone. Gilchrist MacMhuirrich held Balilone on Bute by Feu Farm directly from the King. (Balilone territory is from Loch Fad till the end of the peninsula in the North as well as Achamor next to it). Even when the Stewarts started to rise in Bute, it continued and both of them were the main owners of the lands in Bute. Both of them however tried to resuscitate the Lordship of the Isles and by 1539 Donald McMhuirrich thought it safer to go to Kintyre and in 1541 he rented the lands of the Duke of Argyll which had previously belonged to his father John.
In 1545 they again tried to resurrect the Lordship and together with Stewart from Bute who was also on the wrong site they got outlawed for their part in the affair and Mary Queen of Scots granted to Colin Campbell of Ardkinglass all the lands in Bute. Both of them fled to Ireland and MacMhuirrich established an estate there also called Balilone.
One of the Clan MacMhuirrach however lived with the Clan Lamont in Cowal from 1472 onwards, when Agnes McDonald married John 8th of Lamont. He was the bard of the Lamonts and became the father of all the Curries in Cowal. On 10 September 1618 Duncan McGorrie Lamont of Garrochoran transferred the land to Gilliepatrick McClugas a member of the sect of the clan Lamont . It was John 1st of Garrochoran (714-1772) who bought the Glen Lean estates of Garrochoran and Coorachaive) from Gilliepatrick McClugas. The principal territories of the Curries were Garachoran, Corrachaive, Stuckgowan, Balmichael, Glen Tarsan amd Garvie.
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this is the second part of the message ... you can only have 5500 characters!
I went through the familie tree in the book and just found something interesting ….
He had 4 children, Ann of Garrochoran who married John 13th of Balilone), Duncan the 2nd of Carrochoran, John 1st of Coorachaive and Archibald of Garvie. John the 4th of Garrocharan died at the Battle of Helde in Holland in 1799 and his sister Jean inherited Garrocharon upon the death of her brother. James of Balilone became her guardian and executer … she married Thomas Harkness of Clachaig! It remained her property but was past on to their children after her death!
Jean of Corrachaive who was born in 1782 was engaged to her cousin John Currie of Garrocharan who was killed in 1799. She was a great beauty and was the heroine of the Gaelic lovesong “Clachan Glendaruel” (no need to say the composer of this was also a Currie!)… she eventually married Commander R.N. Black!
This explains the occurance of the Blacks and Harkness at both properties!
Did you know there is even a song “The Ghost of Garrochoran” which was composed by Murdo Currie of Balilone?
I came across the book “With Sword and Harp” in the Dunoon library and took it to read as I thought it might be of the Lamonts (after all they have a harp as one of their symbols!). Once at home I discovered it was about the Curries … provided however interesting reading!
As far as Glendaruel is concerned, that belonged also to the Lamonts … it was only later that the Campbells came in. Need to look into the details on how it became Campbell land, it could be through marriage as well as … after the Lamont Massacre!
Most of the families here in Cowal have members who emigrated to Australia, New Zealand, Canada or the USA …
Shona McKellor (born McIntyre) has done research on the McIntyres of Kilfinan, Kilmodan, Inverchaolain and Bute … She wrote an article about her research for the Colintraive Heritage Centre. She talks about Donald, Alexander and Peter who went to NSW and Victoria in Australia. Peter emigrated in 1852 and went to work for Neil Black … apparently Neil Black came home a couple of times between 1843 and 1850 reporting and looking for likely immigrants and on a second trip he stayed in Scotland for several years while looking for a suitable wife to take out. He had obviously impressed some of the McIntyre boys who followed him! Of the Clark family apparent John Lamont Clark followed him as well … am trying to find him back … all we know is that he died in Australia and had no children … we do not know when he emigrated nor if he ever married!
I do not know if Shona has email, but I am bound to see her next week at the Colintraive fete and will ask her ... She might have some more details about the lands in Glendaruel ... I know that Lochgilphead archives as well as Edinburg archives have lot of documents but will need to verify what they have available ....
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Good so far. Who held these lands in the 19thC? Also have come on a place called Benbuy and have no idea where it could be. Have you heard of it? Also Eligmore, which I think is Glen Shira. Pigot's 1837. Is there any source for the namesof all the farms around the place? Thanks
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Hi
About Benbuy I found this
These notes come from Origines Parochiales Scotiæ, 1855, vol. ii, part i, pp. 85-90. The northern portion of the MacVicar lands is traversed by the valleys of Glenshira and Glenaray (Fig. 1). Its highest mountain is Benbuy, 2,800 feet above the sea (853 m). All of this area is understood to have once belonged to the MacNaughtons, who accept the MacVicars as a sept (the MacVicars could be descended from a MacNaughton who was a vicar). This section, on page 61, goes on:
In the year 1403, Margaret, the daughter of Gyllecrist, called Macgillegeachin, with the consent of her son and heir, Fynlay Macawaran, resigned to Colin Cambell Lord of Lochaw, her overlord, the sixth part of the lands of Glenserw (Gleann-sìora) and of other lands which heritably belonged to her, and which had formerly belonged to Alexander McNeachden, lord of the same lands.
Angus Macnaghten [13] on page 19 tentatively identifies this Alexander as a Chief of our Clan. This seems to refer to Glen Shira.
In 1596, Archibald, Earl of Argyle, appointed Alexander M’Nauchtan, the son and heir of John Macnauchtan of Dundaraw, keeper of the forest of Benbuy for 19 years, for the yearly payment of £80 and on condition that he not keep “oversoumes” in that forest. [p. 64]. There still exist the remains … of the castle of the Macnaughtens on the Dùloch … A standing stone on the castle lawn is said to mark the old march between the McIvers and M’Vicars. [p. 65].
A march can mean a boundary; there are no decipherable marks on the stone [Fig. 2] nor any indication when it formed such a boundary. The McIvers are not listed as a sept of the Macnachtan Clan in The Red Banner
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As far as Eligmore is concerned, in which parish records did you come across them and what is the exact text ... That can help finding that back ... Benbuy is easy as it is one of the well known mountains here in Argyll and indeed Glen Shira area!
The McNaughtans had all the lands around there with their castle at Dunderaw which is still standing today at Loch Fyne.
Pity our neighbour who was a McNaughtan is no longer alive because he could have told us more about that!
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I think the Eligmore must be the Elrig More (you also had an Elrig beg) in Glenshira (correctly writen Eileirig). Was once part of the McNaughton lands as well ...
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follow this link and you find some more info on Elrigmore
http://nz.mcneur.com/inverary/invlettr.htm
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and here again http://mcneur.com/the-inverary-mcneurs/
more om Elrigmore
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gc1660, thanks a lot. The Eligmore reference comes from Pigots commercial directory 1837-8 for Argyll. I found it in Google books. I am researching a man named Neil Black who came to Australia, but who held lands in Glen Shira and I have seen docs in the SNA in Edinburgh where are mentioned Benbuy and Glen Shira, and farms at Ardentraive, Couston, Glenmassan, Glentarsan, and others. I am trying to identify these places on the current OS 25000 for the area, and on the old 25 inch and 6 inch maps available on line. When he was born in 1804 his father farmed Kilbridemore and Kilbridebeg near Glendaruel, a lease his brother Duncan inherited and which ended with a lot of nastiness between the family and Duncan Campbell in 1812. Campbell died soon after, and I have lost the certain track of DB. I am trying to reconstruct a 200 year old landscape at the Tacksman level, in other words who owned the land and who leased it, down through the layers of sublease to the farmers. Thanks again for your help.
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Hi
That's the same Neil Black who came back to try to entice others here in the Glen (that's how we call Glendaruel) and Colintraive to follow suit and emigrate to Australia.
Shona McKellar (nee McIntyre) has done a lot of work on the McIntyres who went to Australia and actually went at first to work for Neil Black there. Please confirm he is the Neil Black born in 1804 at Kilmorebride in the Glen and who established himself as a much respected sheep manager partner of the Neil Black & Company with other partners in the company being William Stuart of Glenormiston Peebleshire, Alex Findley of Castle Toward in Argyll and Thomas Glasstone, 1st cousin of the prime minister. Apparently Peter McIntyre went to work for Neil Black at Glenormiston which is now an Agricultural College. Shona went in 2007 out to Australia to find the McIntyres and states that thre is still a Peter McIntyre with a son Donald and family living at Mount Pleasant.
When I see her next week at the fete I will ask her what she knows about him .... Shona, although born here in Colintraive married a McKellar from the Glen. The McIntyres goe back to Colintraive, Glendaruel and also Kilfinnan. Roderick Neil Black here in the village of Colintraive if one of the few Black here in the area descending from that line but ... he is not interested in familyu history ...
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I just now discovered you also mention Couston. The clark family were tenant farmers of Couston from 1840 till the early 1900's. Till the end of the 1700's it belonged to the Lamonts but then, through marriage, it became the possession of the Campbells of South Hall Estate here in Colintraive. The South Hall Estate got sold I believe in 1923 (we have copies of the sale papers here in Colintraive) but just prior to that the Clark family left Couston and bought Achaderlie here in Colintraive.
Ardentraive Farm also belonged for a long time to the Lamont Family ... that's where Shona's father farmed (and her brother still farms today). Ardentraive farm is just here at the back of our house. They started farming there around 1917. Before that branch of the McIntyre's were farming at Milton and Altgaltraig here in Colintraive. Actually at the end of the 1800's, one of the McIntyre family farmed at Kilbridemore!
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I forgot to mention that the archives in Lochgilphead as well as in Edinburg have the rental papers of the South hall estate from I believe 1777 .... I intend to visit Lochgilphead next month to see when the Clark family started the rent of Couston farm and ended it ...
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By the way, I think we can better correspond through normal email ... please email me at (*). Some of the properties you mentioned, belong till at least 1770 completely to the Lamonts be it the Lamonts of Kilfinan, Glendaruel or Inverchaolain ... Unfortunately the Clan Lamont does not have the estate papers going back to that period! They however received from the Duke of Argyll a compilation of all sassines etc with regards to the Lamonts. Knockdow estate is for sale now. In Knockdow house are still papers concerning the estate as well as other Lamont papers and the clan is now trying to get hold of these before the estate sale goes through (they would love to buy Knockdow House but the asking price is around GBP 1.7 million!). I am hoping they will succeed and I hope to find out more about Duncan Clark who farmed at Gortanansaig farm in the 1700's!
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
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By the way, one more thought, the present owner of the Knockdow Estate, Peter Blacker, also owns the Glenstriven (Ardtarig) estate ...
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GC1660 and Themeda 99 - Thank you for the lively exchange during July which was most interesting. Particularly appreciate the information on the paper on Place Names of the Knockdow Estate by Augusta Lamont read to the Annual Meeting of the Gaelic Society of Inverness 28 January 1927 and printed in the Transactions of the Society 1926-1927 published in 1932.
Thanks to your in formation and the good offices of a dealer in Fort William, Royal Mail and Australia Post, I now have a copy of the book. Contact me off line if you are interested in a scan of the 22 x A5 pages making up the article.
This article has certainly cleared up large parts of my query posted in Feb 2009.
I am persevering slowly with search for the roots of the Brown family of Inverchaolain and recently have received independent confirmation of the name change from McGilmichal in the mid-Eighteenth century, not far removed from when the Lamonts purchased Kilmichael farm.
Rereading the Old and New Statistical Accounts in conjunction with Augusta Lamont's paper highlights the extent of depopulation of Inverchaolain that came with the change to sheep farming and led to the major lifestyle disruption of the poorer people of the parish.
My Brown ancestor made the career change to fisherman around this time and moved to Rothesay.
Thank you again,
David
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Thanks. I would appreciate a copy of the paper. I am very grateful to gc1660 for her knowledge of the area. She is a fantastic source of info which is hard to get 15000 kms from Cowal, and simply hard to get.
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Thanks for the compliments. That's what you get when researching the family history here and when the main branch never moved away but stayed here!
Naturally living here in Colintraive helps ... many placenames still exist today, some ruined, others however totally disappeared almost except for some stones in a field or wood. Augusta Lamont's little booklet which I found at Inverchaolain Manse helped me finding the rest.
Those of you wanting an old map of inverchaolain with lots of place names on it, just let me know ...
I hope to be going back next week to Inverchaolain as this week we have a visitor over ... if anybody wants any pictures of any particular graves, let me know ... I might already have them, else I can look and if they exist make them
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Danielle, today I posted that book I promised you. You should get it next week. Kevin
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Thanks very much Kevin. I will let you know when I receive it
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GC1660 and Themeda 99 - Thank you for the lively exchange during July which was most interesting. Particularly appreciate the information on the paper on Place Names of the Knockdow Estate by Augusta Lamont read to the Annual Meeting of the Gaelic Society of Inverness 28 January 1927 and printed in the Transactions of the Society 1926-1927 published in 1932.
Thanks to your in formation and the good offices of a dealer in Fort William, Royal Mail and Australia Post, I now have a copy of the book. Contact me off line if you are interested in a scan of the 22 x A5 pages making up the article.
This article has certainly cleared up large parts of my query posted in Feb 2009.
I am persevering slowly with search for the roots of the Brown family of Inverchaolain and recently have received independent confirmation of the name change from McGilmichal in the mid-Eighteenth century, not far removed from when the Lamonts purchased Kilmichael farm.
Rereading the Old and New Statistical Accounts in conjunction with Augusta Lamont's paper highlights the extent of depopulation of Inverchaolain that came with the change to sheep farming and led to the major lifestyle disruption of the poorer people of the parish.
My Brown ancestor made the career change to fisherman around this time and moved to Rothesay.
Thank you again,
David
I was most interested to read your comments regarding the Brown family and the name change. It may help me in my search for Archibald Brown and Mary McKellar who had a son born in 1780, also by the name of Archibald. I haven't found any of his family and so was interested in the name change but, other than this discussion forum, was not aware of any corroborating resources.
What particularly caught my attention was your reference to a Brown ancestor who moved to Rothesay. My Archibald Brown and family from Stronyaraig also had a connection to an Archibald Brown of Rothesay who was a merchant there and I was wondering if this is just coincidence or if there was a possible link.
I have a little information on this man, who I know was living in Rothesay circa 1860, so if you think this sounds like a possibility I may have some more information for you.
Regards,
Heather Jean
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I have just read this thread with considerable interest. My grandmother was a Brown (married name McDougall) who lived in Dunoon, although born in Kinning Park in Glasgow. Her grandfather was Daniel Brown born in 1811 in Point of Towart. His parents were John Brown and Margaret Harkness. Does anyone know how Daniel Brown and his wife link into this thread?
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HI; new here; my great-grandfather is Finley (or Finlay) Brown born in Inverchaolian, Argyyll in 1863; his mother is Janet Turner; he had a sister Jessie Brown b. 1853 and a younger brother Robert Mitchell Brown b. 1871; I believe Janet Tutrner married a John Brown b. 1808 and that he adopted Finlay and Jessie; John is the son of Alexander brown (1777--1862) who is the brother of the Archibald Brown that has been talked about on here; I'm trying to see if anyone has any info on Finlay/Jessie or Janet as I think John is Finlay's step=father; thanks :)
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Hi gc1660
I am very interested in your comments concerning the Curries. I have Sir Williams "Sword and Harp" but am trying to locate my line.
My family legend says that my Great-Great-Great Grandfather was named Nathaniel Currie. In 1790, my GGG Grandfather emigrated to Belfast to apprentice as a tailor and then moved to County Armagh. I have detailed information on his sons and the succeeding generations. His eldest son (my ancestor) emigrated to Ontario, Canada to found the village of Glencoe. However, I have been unable to verify any information concerning his existence and/or other information about the family in Scotland.
Would you have any information or places to look that might be helpful?
Thanks
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Hi Colesville - and welcome! :D
I see you have also posted here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,480981.msg3397420.html#msg3397420
It might be best if you could clarify where your ancestor came from - Kirkudbright or Argyll - and we should keep in mind not to duplicate information across the two threads.
Thanks.
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Malevich,
Your post re Finlay Brown caught my interest due to the reference to my ancestor Alexander Brown (1777-1864)(brother to Archibald)
Checking through the data I have collected so far on the Inverchaolain Browns unfortunately identified that John born 1808 appeared to be the son of another Alexander Brown and Mary Cameron, not Alexander Brown and Mary Currie.
It has taken a few days to prove it but I can confirm everything else in your post: Some notes follow:
Alexander Brown (son of Finlay Brown and Mary Turner) of Brackley beg married Janet Turner 19 January 1846 and had at least five children - Margaret 1846, Donald 1848, Catherine 1854, Janet (Jessie) 1858 and Finlay born at Knockdow on 10 November 1862. Alexander died a pauper aged 80 on 5 October 1863. I have not found a second marriage for Janet but she was with John and their 6 month old son Robert Mitchell in 1871. John's death certificate 25 June 1885 confirm his mother was Mary Cameron and he is listed as the widower of Janet Turner / Brown.
I will contact you later off list.
Regards,
David Bailey
Brisbane AUS.
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Danielle,
I recall you mentioned that you had some Brown connections?
To all readers of the list, may I solicit details of your Brown (or Broun) connections predominantly in Inverchaolain but extending into Dunoon & Kilmun, Kilmodan, Rothesay and Greenock where a connection can be shown.
I am trying to make some sense of where all the families fit together based on baptisms and marriages from ScotlandsPeople - unfortunately no burials appear to exist before 1855 and I am unaware of any useful MIs.
Central to my search are the links to the previous surname of McGilmichal (and its derivatives Gilmichael, McMichael, McMichal, Michael, Michal, Michel - all represented in Inverchaolain and/or D&K and sometimes with more than one variant in one family)
Any assistance will be appreciated - also if you have a Brown query, ask as I am starting to collect quite a few baptism printouts from ScotlandsPeople.
Regards,
David Bailey
Brisbane AUS
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David, my great x2 grandfather was Daniel Brown, who was born in 1811 in Point of Towart, which is south of Dunoon. His father was John Brown from Stronsaule (not sure when born) who married Margaret Harkness in 1806. she was the illegitimate daughter of Adam Harkness of Glen Lean and Ann (looks like) McKellor and was born in 1784; her father was Duncan (again looks like) McKellor. John Brown's father was also John Brown, but I have no further info on him. I don't have any other connections but all of these people are in the Dunoon/Inverchaolain area and so it would be great if you can shed any further light on the Brown and related lines in this area.
Alex.
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I have a John Brown who married Jane Leitch. He was from the Dunoon/Inverchaolin area. His children all appear to have been born in Kilmun. I also have a John Munn who married Mary Leitch from this area also. John lived a Knockdow at the time of his marriage to Mary at Inverchaolin. The Leitch Family were from Kilmodan although on of the sons was Gamekeeper at Castle Toward. Helen
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Do you know when your John Brown was born? A quick check has shown that he married Jane Leitch on 16 January 1833. My great x2 grandfather Daniel Brown had a brother John born on 15 March 1809 in Dunoon and Kilmun, probably at point of Towart (I haven't accessed the certificate). Could he be the father of your John Brown? Alex.
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Helen,
Based on the naming pattern of his children and the age on his 1897 death certificate, your John Brown appears to be the John baptised at Dunoon and Kilmun 23 April 1806 to Donald Brown, cottar in Ardnanslaite(?), and Mary Kennedy.
This couple baptised a number of children both in Dunoon and Inverchaolain so the family obviously moved around quite a bit - also partially explains why John may have married in Inverchaolain rather than Dunoon.
Your Jane Leitch from her 1895 death certificate was the daughter of Andrew Leitch from Kilmodan (Glendaruel) and the marriage to John is recorded both in Kilmodan and Inverchaolain som days apart. This double ceremony is not all that unusual for the time where the two participants came from different parishes.
Regards,
David Bailey
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I need to correct posts I have made here regarding my greatx2 grandfather Daniel Brown. His place of birth was actually Stronsaule (usually now spelled without the "e") on 3rd April 1811. His parents were John Brown and Margaret Harkness. Although he is referred to as Daniel in all documents the one exception is the parish record of his birth which lists him as Donald; apparently Donald and Daniel were interchangeable names at this time.
The Daniel that I had previously thought to be my relative was also born to a John Brown and his mother was also Margaret. It is quite a coincidence that the Dunoon area had two such similar records within two months of each other and is a classic example of how easy it is to jump to the wrong conclusion.
Full acknowledgement is due to sonofcam, who also posts on this board, for drawing this to my attention.
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John Brown died 1897 at the age of 92 at Finnarmore. His death cert. does not give his parents names (the info given by grand-daughter Lizzie. I have only found info on two of the children Adam Duncan died 29 Dec 1872 age 18 (the earlier Duncan must have died young) and Jean/Jane married her cousin Colin Fletcher son of Colin Fletcher and Elizabeth Leitch. One of the reasons I was on this site was to find the parents of John Munn. His death cert. gives his mother's maiden name as Carmichael. I came across a marriage record for an Ann Michael to a James Munn and one for an Ann Brown with the marriage dates close togerther on in Kilmodan and one in Inverchaolin. I thought perhaps the 2 Ann's could be the same person but each record is clear as Michael and Brown. The children of Ann Brown and James Munn would match up with the approximate age of my John. I have info no the Leitch Family Alexander Leitch was ground officer in Kilmodan. He was married to a Mary Weir/McNuir (another one of those name changes). Thanks for the information on John Brown. Helen
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forgot to add to my note, John gives his birthplace as Dunoon on the census and one time as Kilmun. His children were Donald, Alexander, John, Duncan, Janet, Mary, Agnes, Adam Duncan, and Jean/Jane. Agnes was the mother of Lizzie who was the informant on John Brown's death cert. Most of t he childfren were born in Kilmun. I once lived in Kilmun before I came to the USA of course that was before I started doing my genealogy. Helen
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John Brown died 1897 at the age of 92 at Finnarmore. His death cert. does not give his parents names (the info given by grand-daughter Lizzie. I have only found info on two of the children Adam Duncan died 29 Dec 1872 age 18 (the earlier Duncan must have died young) and Jean/Jane married her cousin Colin Fletcher son of Colin Fletcher and Elizabeth Leitch. One of the reasons I was on this site was to find the parents of John Munn. His death cert. gives his mother's maiden name as Carmichael. I came across a marriage record for an Ann Michael to a James Munn and one for an Ann Brown with the marriage dates close together on in Kilmodan and one in Inverchaolin. I thought perhaps the 2 Ann's could be the same person but each record is clear as Michael and Brown. The children of Ann Brown and James Munn would match up with the approximate age of my John. I have info no the Leitch Family Alexander Leitch was ground officer in Kilmodan. He was married to a Mary Weir/McNuir (another one of those name changes). Thanks for the information on John Brown. Helen
Helen,
I found your reference to the Ann Michael / Ann Brown marriages very intersting - thank you.
Have you sighted the actual register entries as they make it reasonably certain that the two events are linked?
In Inverchaolain James Munn of Glendaruele registered his intention to marry Ann Brown on 19 June 1789 and they were married on 24 June in Inverchaolain.
In Kilmodan (Glendaruele) the registration of intention for James Mun(n) and Ann Michael of Inverchaolain was one of the two for19 June and the reference goes on to state that this couple were later married in Inverchaolain.
I have taken this as further supporting evidence of the name change from Michal (and related variants) to Brown and by extension as an indication that efforts may have been advisable in Inverchaolain (Lamont territory) to distance oneself from the Michal connection that may not have been necessary in Kilmodan (nominally Campbell territory!)
Regarding James Munn of Kilmodan, his children (all baptised in Inverchaolain) in order appear to have been Niell 1790, Archibald 1792, Isobell 1796, John 1799 (born at Tighnuilt just south of Inverchaolain township) Mary 1801 and Donald 1804.
These names in turn make it quite probable that James can be identified with the James baptised in Kilmodan 14 October 1764 to Archibald Munn and Isabell NcLugas.
Unfortunately I have been unable yet to come up with any supportable identification of a Ann Michael / Brown born probably about 1770.
This all highlights the difficulties of making clear cut deductions of ancestry in Scotland due to arbitrary name changes, damage to registers, etc and we are obliged to go with probabilities and a judicious application of Occam's razor!
Considering the Carmichael reference. it does not appear to have been a name much found in the area but it is possibly a factor of a poorly remembered name by the grand-daughter probably long after the event. It is more credible because I have struck something similar with another contact with a similar memory of an ancestor's name as Carmichael or something like it. I am happy enough that Gilmichal and Carmichael could easily be confused.
Hopefully this may be of some use to you.
Regards,
David
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Thanks for the info on the Munns. I noticed several mentioning a McKellar connection. John Brown's wife Jane Leitch had a sister Janet Leitch who married Duncan McKellar. They went to Australia on the ship of a Duncan McKellar (Uncle to the first Duncan) Janet was apparently murdered there and her husband Duncan died in 1838 . Their is a Brown connetion out there also. Helen
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To be updated.
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To be updated.
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Malevich,
Your post re Finlay Brown caught my interest due to the reference to my ancestor Alexander Brown (1777-1864)(brother to Archibald)
Checking through the data I have collected so far on the Inverchaolain Browns unfortunately identified that John born 1808 appeared to be the son of another Alexander Brown and Mary Cameron, not Alexander Brown and Mary Currie.
It has taken a few days to prove it but I can confirm everything else in your post: Some notes follow:
Alexander Brown (son of Finlay Brown and Mary Turner) of Brackley beg married Janet Turner 19 January 1846 and had at least five children - Margaret 1846, Donald 1848, Catherine 1854, Janet (Jessie) 1858 and Finlay born at Knockdow on 10 November 1862. Alexander died a pauper aged 80 on 5 October 1863. I have not found a second marriage for Janet but she was with John and their 6 month old son Robert Mitchell in 1871. John's death certificate 25 June 1885 confirm his mother was Mary Cameron and he is listed as the widower of Janet Turner / Brown.
I will contact you later off list.
Regards,
David Bailey
Brisbane AUS.
Good morning (David) sonofcam. I have just been introduced to this site. This being my primary post, I hope you will receive the message. My Gr/great grandmother was Margaret Brown (b.1799), the daughter of Finlay Brown and Mary Turner, and according to my calculations would be the sister of Alexander Brown noted in your post from 07 Sep 2010. As we are located on different parts of the Globe, I would be interested in providing what-ever information I might possess to help complete your research and expand my own knowledge .
Regards
L. McLean
British Columbia, Canada
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Ho all
By now I have done a lot of research into the Brown's of Inverchaolain and have a spreadsheet with all births till 1780. I also reconstructed most families, inclusive the one of Finlay Brown and Mary Turner, John Brown and Mary Turner, John Brown and Margaret Harkness/Helen White (Kilmun), James Brown and Elizabeth Banatyne (Kilmun) etc.
Anybody interested just give me a message ...
Best regards
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Hi
I have printouts of all marriage records of Inverchaolain parish till 1855 as well as births till 1780 and have also a list of all Clan Lamont related births at Dunoon & Kilmun (Brown/White/Turner/Black/Lamont) for period 1770 to 1819) and hope to extend this list to include also the births up to 1770.
As far as the Brown's is concerned I enetered all info in a spreadsheet and grouped them into families.
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Hello gc1660
I am interested in the information you might have concerning Margaret Brown's parents, Finlay Brown and Mary Turner. I have a marriage date of 26 Feb 1784 at Inverchaolain, but haven't been able to confirm date(s) of birth for either parent. I have 7 children listed of which Margaret (b.1799) is the sixth. I have enjoyed reading the data posted on Inverchaolain.
Best regards
L. McLean
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Finlay Brown and Mary Turner got indeed married 26 Feb 1784 at Inverchaolain. The entry states: Finley Brown in Brackleybeg and Mary Turner in Uig in the united parish of Dunoon and Kilmun.
Their children are:
Donald born 2 Jan 1785 (Donald Brown, son of Finlay Brown with Isobel Park daughter of Adam Park married 24 Jan 1815 at Dunoon and Kilmun)
Alexander born 17 Feb 1787 (Alexander Brown of Bracklybeg with Janet Turner there on 19 Jan 1846 at Inverchaolain)
Margaret born 12 Jan 1791 (must have died young)
Janet born 31 Dec 1792 (Alexander Campbell Joiner in this parish with Janet Brown in Brackleybeg married on 29 Jul 1813 at Inverchaolain)
Mary born 26 Feb 1797 (have not yet been able to trace a marriage for her ... might have died young)
Margaret born 7 April 1799 (Archibald McLean in Clachaig formerly of this parish with Margaret Brown in Brackleybeg on 22 Jan 1827 - marriage also registered in Dunoon & Kilmun)
Isabella born 11 Jul 1804 Inverchaolain (have not yet traced anything for her ... might have died young)
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It is clear that Finlay Brown is the son of Alexander and Margaret Borwn born 20 August 1750 at Milton Inverchaolain. Mary Turner is the daughter of Donald Turner Senior of Uig as Mary, the daughter of Donald Turner Jr of Uig married John McLean, a widower, on 28 April 1781 (this Mary was born 23 Sep 1760 and her mother was Jennet McIntyre). I am still trying to define to whom Donald Turner Sr of Uig was married.
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Mary Turner is still alive in 1841and living with son Alexander at Brackleybeg which is clear from the 1841 census of Inverchaolain
Address: Brackley Beg
BROWN Alexander M 45 Farmer Argyllshire
TURNER Mary F 80 Argyllshire
MCLEAN Mary F 10 Argyllshire
WIER David M 13 Male Servant Argyllshire
BELL Mary F 15 Fem.Servant Argyllshire
Mary McLean aged 10 must be Mary Ann Campbell McLean, daughter of Archibald McLean and Margaret Brown born 19 Oct 1831 at Inverchaolain.
Hope this helps
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in 1841 we find Alexander Campbel and Janet Brown back at Ardislate Dunoon & Kilmun
1841 vensus Dunoon & Kilmun
Address: Ardinslate
CAMPBELL Alexander M 45 Joiner Argyllshire
CAMPBELL Janet F 45 Argyllshire
CAMPBELL Alexander Junior M 20 Mason Argyllshire
CAMPBELL John M 10 Argyllshire
CAMPBELL Helen F 8 Argyllshire
CAMPBELL Isabella F 5 Argyllshire
twe houses further you find the other children of Archibald McLean and Margaret Brown back
MCLEAN Archibald M 6 Argyllshire
MCLEAN Findlay M 4 Argyllshire
MCLEAN Donald M 4 Argyllshire
TURNER Nancy F 35 Fem. Servant Argyllshire
I suspect Margaret Brown died in 1837 soon after given birth to the twins Finlay and Donald on 27 April
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daughter Margaret and son John McLean lives with sister Isobel Brown at in 1841
Address: Brackleymore
WHITE Donald M 45 Farmer Argyllshire
BROWN Isabel F 30 Argyllshire
MCLEAN Margaret F 8 Argyllshire
MCLEAN John M 12 Male Servant Argyllshire
WIER Catherine F 14 Fem.Servant Argyllshire
I just discovered Isobel married Donald white on 21 March 1833 at Inverchaolain: Donald White in Knockdow with Isabel Brown in Brackley
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Thank you gc1660.
You have confirmed the connection between Finlay Brown and Mary Turner for me, as well as established a birth date for Finlay. I had also previously suspected Donald Whyte and Isabell Brown were married (via census) however your efforts have now confirmed this for me as well. You are correct with your thoughts that the Mary McLean is Mary Ann Campbell McLean, daughter of Archibald McLean. She stayed with him into his old age, and I don't think she ever married. Thank you again for your assistance.
Regards
L. McLean
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I just discovered who daughter Mary Brown married to ... On 30 April 1821 Malcom Black in Dunoon married Mary Brown in Brackleybeg (entry Inverchaolain OPR)
Might I find more, I will post it
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It seems likely Finlay Brown and Mary Turner also had a son Peter as on 16 December 1816 in Inverchaolain you have a Peter Brown of Brackleybeg marrying a Flora McMillan of the parish of Kilcalmonel. Unfortunately, I cannot find any of the children born to them between 1816 and 1832.
The 1841 census gives them at Inverchaolain at Portlamont
Address: Portlamont
BROWN Peter M 54 Ag.Lab. Argyllshire
BROWN Flora F 46 Argyllshire
BROWN Archibald M 15 Ag.Lab. Argyllshire
BROWN Peter M 12 Ag.Lab. Argyllshire
BROWN Margaret F 9 Argyllshire
BROWN Flora F 7 Argyllshire
BROWN Jane F 2 Argyllshire
On 9 October 1847 an Isabel Brown at Portlamont marries a Peter Rankin. Must be one of the children born to them in the missing period of 1816 - 1816
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Hello,
My name is Damian Downie and I am one of the administrators of a Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/downey/
The FTDNA project has been running for a number of years and is very interested in males bearing the Brown surname who can trace their line back to the Inverchaolain area, in particular around Loch Striven. The FTDNA project is willing to pay for two tests, which are done quickly and easily by taking three swabs from inside your mouth. The tests are free and will benefit our overall understanding of families in the Parish of Inverchaolain. If required, participation in the DNA project can be anonymous. Through this type of testing (the male yDNA) we are able to help various families trace their lines back once the paper trail gets cold.
So, if you are a man who has the Brown surname, or if you are a female and have a father, brother, uncle who can trace their line back to Inverchaolain area who wishes to participate please send me an email at the address on the FTDNA site, many thanks.
If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to email me.
Regards,
Damian Downie
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It is clear that Finlay Brown is the son of Alexander and Margaret Borwn born 20 August 1750 at Milton Inverchaolain. Mary Turner is the daughter of Donald Turner Senior of Uig as Mary, the daughter of Donald Turner Jr of Uig married John McLean, a widower, on 28 April 1781 (this Mary was born 23 Sep 1760 and her mother was Jennet McIntyre). I am still trying to define to whom Donald Turner Sr of Uig was married.
I came accross this Inverchoalin posts via google. Like L McLean I reaserch Finlay McLean and Margaret Brown. I did not have much on their parents.
Thank you
L Doran
Alberta, Canada
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My pleasure. I am glad to be of help.
Best regards
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Really enjoyed reading your postings on Glen Lean and Garrachoran. I saw that you cited "With Sword and Harp," did you work from any other source material? I manage the Clan Currie(MacMhuirich) Society and have been looking for other data to support William Currie's text. He was a wonderful writer but sadly did not cite sources for much of his material.
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I read a wee book about the Powder Mill at Clachaig but by memory is failing ... I am going back to the library today ... if it is still there I will look and see what it states as the owner Sheriff bought the land from.
I have not looked further into hte Curries ... difficult to go back here before mid 1700's without looking at all the sassines.
The Bornws however I studied. There is indeed a strange name change from McGilmichael/McIldonie etc into Brown starting at the very start of the OPR's ... sometimes it reverts back which makes it difficulf for anybody with the name Brown to research their ancestors here.
At present I am studying the Harkness family. Thomas Harkness was not alone ... there was also a John and a Margaret Harkness who came here probably late 1740's early 1750
Please be more specific in your questions ...
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Monica who is a Global Moderator placed a portion of this Forum into an answer on my Brown Family.
I have a connection with John Brown and Jane Lietch/Leitch who are mentioned on this forum topic. My information is as follows:
I am researching the BROWN family and have Donald BROWN marrying Mary KENNEDY at Stralachlan, Argyll, Scotland on 29 May 1799. Children from this marriage are:
Donald born 1802 Dalilongart, Dunoon, Kilmun
Ann born 1804 Inverchaolain
John 1806 Ardnaslate, Dunoon, Kilmun
Duncan 1808 Dergachy, Kilman Parish, Dunoon & Kilmun, [my direct descendant who came to Australia in 1838 with his wife Margaret nee MITCHELL and 3 sons - my GG Grandmother and her twin being born at sea 3 days out of Sydney]
Mary 1810 Dergachy, Dunoon, Kilmun
Angus 1812 Dergachy, Dunoon, Kilmun
Janet 1814 Dergachy, Dunoon, Kilmun
Agnes 1816 Garachoirain, Inverchaolain
Margaret 1818 Dergachy, Dunoon, Kilmun
Alexander 1820 Dergachy, Dunoon, Kilmun
Dugald 1823 Dergachy, Dunoon, Kilmun
I have the Baptism certificates for the children and also the Marriage certificate for Donald and Mary.
May I please ask if anyone is researching any of the above? Are you able to help me at all please.
My reply to Monica's message was:
Thank you very much for your reply, yes this is the right John. Sadly I do not have a huge amount of information for him or Jane, only a year for her death, a year for his death. His Baptism certificate gives a birth date of 22 April 1806 and Baptism 23 April 1806 at what looks like Ardnanslaite but I cannot find this area at all.
And then by way of follow up:
I have now purchased the Birth for Jane Lietch (it is actually spelt this way), daughter of Alexander Lietch/Leitch and Mary nee Weir and also her sister Mennie Lietch (again spelt this way) who was born 8 December 1808. Jane's birth has been put as 1 January 1809 but at the top of the page it has 1808-9. Now I am wondering if Jane was born in 1808 and not 1809 as it states, would Mennie be delivered and then nearly a month later Jane. On the birth register (no baptism date mentioned) it clearly has 1809 against some of the dates and not others. Does this mean that she was born at the beginning of 1808 then? Anyone come across this before please?
I have also purchased the Marriage Register for John Brown and Jane Leitch. With this marriage I do not believe they married twice but only the once on 16 January 1833. On 12 January 1833 he went to the Parish Registrar/Church to request his intention to marry Jane to be duly published in form in law.
I have also found their death register records and have purchased these as well. Both John and Jane passed away at Finnartmore.
May I please ask if anyone else here has done further investigations into the Brown family from the names mentioned above?
Cheers
Judi
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I wonder if I may follow up Balilone's query with a rather more specific one. That was a question about whether enyone had followed up any of the With Sword & Harp references. Mine is whether anyone has any independent record of the James (Mc)Currie referenced?
Incidentally, the Harkness connection was the marriage of Thomas Harkness 30.12.1799 to Jean Curry in the Parish of Inverchaolain. I assume this was the same Jean Curry of Coirechavive who, on 17.8.1813, also in Inverchaolain, married Lieut Archibald Black of the Parish of Kilbride in Arran so that marriage did not end with his death in 1806.
Thanks for any help anyone can give,
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Jean Curry of Garrocharon married Thomas Harkness.
Jean Curry of Corrachaive who was born in 1782 was engaged to her cousin John Currie of Garrocharan who was killed in 1799. She was a great beauty and was the heroine of the Gaelic lovesong “Clachan Glendaruel” (no need to say the composer of this was also a Currie!)… she eventually married Commander R.N. Black!
You are talking about 2 different Jean Curry's!
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I have just seen reply no 6 on this topic which states that "Thomas commonly called "An Gall Ruadh" the Red Stranger came to this area in the early 1700's." Thomas is Thomas Harkness and I am of this line on my mother's side. However what is particularly interesting is that the writer James Hogg wrote of the earlier Thomas Harkness of Locherben in Dumfriesshire, Thomas the Martyr, and referred to him as Red Tam; see the Hogg short story "A Tale of the Martyrs. While much in the story is a fictionalised account this does seem to suggest that red hair was a feature of this family. Another small piece added to the jigsaw of family history!
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This is my first time on the board, I am stuck with finding the wife of one Alexander McGilmichal born 1720, father of Archibald Brown or McGilmichal born 1748 Inverchaolin, married 15 April 1773 in Inverchaolin to Mary McKellar, born 1749 and died 25 February 1798. I also am hoping to find her father, Archibald Mckellar, born to my knowledge in Gortanloist, Scotland, the rest of his vitals and whoever his spouse was, the mother of Mary McKellar. IMPORTANT Side note, Mary and Archibald Brown had a son named for his father, and there is a marriage record for that boy to a spouse named Mary Mckillar(sic) date of 24 March 1800, 2 years after the death of his mother. Please do not let that throw you. I would appreciate the help so much. Also, if someone could explain the name change reason from McGilmichal to Brown, I would be very grateful.
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Hello everyone,
This is my first forum post here, and I was wondering if anyone may have some information or clues for me. I know this is quite a long post (sorry!) as I am at a brick wall!
I have been deep in research, exhausting everywhere I know of, trying to find ancestors of an Archibald Black (died 1808) and his wife Janet (MacChananich - in various spellings) /Buchanan, their marriage being in Inverchaolain in 1775 and I have found only two sons though have heard of there being more children but with no solid evidence; Walter Black (1797–1878) and Niel Black (1804–1880).
As far as I can tell, they and their descendants lived in Inverchaolain, but I just cannot find solid evidence of their parents! Or even their siblings. I am wondering at least for Janet if it is due to her surname being recorded differently, so I can't get the right spelling or version matched. For Archibald I found a possible parental connection but can't tell if it's correct, which would put his birth in Cowall, 5 JAN 1767 - Walter Black and Anne/Ann McLean. Even if anyone knows locations of the area as I'm not from Scotland myself, to say that Cowall may be nearby or not. There appear to be a lot of Archibald Black's from Inverchaolain born around the time I am searching for.
I have read through this thread and saw that there is mention of them from some time ago, which was very exciting but I haven't found much more.
So, if anyone has even tidbits of information or any sources I may be able to look into. I am desperately trying to find Archibald's birth year and parents, and the same for Janet.
The family line stopping at 1808 would be rather disappointing, as I have found further back in all of my other lines. Any help would be greatly appreciated (more than you know!). If anyone knows anything at all, please don't hesitate, any and all info is great.
Thank you Kindly
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Hiya!
This is my first post, so please bear with me :)
gc1660, you posted on this thread (reply #68) that you have a list of Clan Lamont related births at Dunoon and Kilmun - I am researching my Lamont ancestors and would be very interested in this information.
I started with my GGrandfather, Alexander Lamont b.25 FEB 1870 in Kilfinan, d.26 APR 1927 in South Africa, and have been working back.
>Coll Lamont b.1837 m. Elizabeth McNicol
>Coll Lamont b.1803 m. Sarah Black
>Hugh Lamont b.1772 m. Catherine McLachlan
>Archibald Lamont (McPhorick?) b.1725 m. Marjory/Mary Baxter
>I'd like to check if I've correctly identified Archibald Lamont (McPhorick?) b.BEF 12 FEB 1769 • Dunoon and Kilmun as son of the above Archibald Lamont? (this second Archibald married Marrion Lamont/McPhorick b. BEF 17 NOV 1767 • Dunoon and Kilmun).
Thanks very much!
Kathy
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Hi Kathy, and welcome to RootsChat.
You haven't said where you have found your information, but if it wasn't at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, may I recommend that you check there to verify the various connections you have listed?
If the information came from anywhere else, it is not to be trusted unless it is an image of an original document.
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Hi, coming late to the discussion.
Archibald Black and Janet McChannich or Buchanan are my 3rd great grandparents.
I believe their children were Duncan (1785 Kilmodan) Mary (1787 Kilmodan) John (1789 Kilmodan) Jean/Jane (1791 Kilmodan) John (1793 Kilmodan) Janet (1795 Kilmodan) Walter (1797 Kilmodan) Archibald (1799 Kilmodan) and Niel (1804 Kilmodan). I have the OPRs from Scotland's people for all of these children (the spellings of Janet's surname do vary somewhat).
Janet herself I believe may have been born in Kilmodan in 1761, the daughter of Duncan McChannich and Jane or Jean Smith. If this is correct, she also has two sisters Margaret (1762 Kilmodan) and Jean (1767 Kilmodan). Again the OPRs are available on Scotland's People.
Archibald is more problematic, but I believe he has a brother named John who married Isabel McIntosh. The reason I believe these two are brothers is that the Black gravestones in Kilmodan are in a group of four similar stones, grouped together within a small fenced in enclosure. Two of the stones are badly eroded but one still clearly has Janet Buchanan, whilst the other has John Black and (just visible) Isabel McIntosh. The two other, much less eroded stones have members of Archibald and Janet's family, whilst the other has John and Isabel's descendants.
A further clue may be that just in front of the group a very badly eroded stone appears to say "The burial place of Archibald Black and Elizabeth..." There are OPRs of two children born to Archibald Black and Elizabeth Smith, Duncan born in 1765 and an unnamed child in 1772. Perhaps John and Archibald are also sons of Archibald and Elizabeth, but if so I can find no confirmation on Scotland's People.
@Sapienta Inverchaolin, Kilmodan, Glendaruel and Cowal are all close together, indeed the whole peninsula is known as the Cowal Peninsula. I have not found any marriage for Archibald and Janet McChannich, so I would be interested in where that comes from.
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Hi, first post so bear with me if need be! Ancestors traced back to a John Turner born in 1781 from Inverchaolain, married Susanna McPherson. Struggling to find his parents - might be Duncan who married Catherine Wilson but cannot confirm. Wondering if anyone can assist!
Thanks!
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Hi, first post so bear with me if need be! Ancestors traced back to a John Turner born in 1781 from Inverchaolain, married Susanna McPherson. Struggling to find his parents - might be Duncan who married Catherine Wilson but cannot confirm. Wondering if anyone can assist!
Thanks!
Welcome to RootsChat, Marj62.
How did you find out that he was born in 1781 in Inverchaolain?
I see that John and Susanna were married in Dunoon in 1807, and there are two baptism records, both in Greenock: Dougald, 12 March 1813; James, 30 December 1825. That's a long gap, and I would be surprised if there are not several children missing from the baptism records.
There's a family at Sir Michael Street, Greenock consisting of John Turner, 60; Susannah Turner, 60; Duncan Turner, 25; and James Turner, 15. Adults' ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so John and Susannah could have been anything from 60 to 64, Duncan from 25 to 29, and James 15 to 19. That means that, assuming their ages had been accurately calculated, they would have been born between 8 June 1776 and 7 June 1781 (because the census was taken on 7 June 1841). Are these your John and Susannah?
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I am working on my family tree, found my great,great Grandfather, Malcolm Mc Lean 1794 - 1874 he was born in Inverchaolin, also married there and I believe he his buried in the local church yard there, I visited the burial site quite recently but sadly I could not find him as the old headstones are covered in moss, any info that I can find would be very helpful
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Hello - I am new to this so apologies if I haven't got the posting protocol right. I am looking for anyhting on Archibald (John) Campbell born 1753 who married a Barbara Turner in 1769.. His mother was Ann Ker (b 1725). There is a later connection with Bute. I also think Archibalds father may have had a connection with Ireland but not sure. It seems the Campbells were a prominent family so would be really grateful for any details. Thank you
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Reply to: sonofhelaman4817
Reply #88
[IMPORTANT Side note, Mary and Archibald Brown had a son named for his father, and there is a marriage record for that boy to a spouse named Mary Mckillar(sic) date of 24 March 1800, 2 years after the death of his mother.]
Archibald Brown and Mary McKellar, m 1773 whose son, named after his father and born in 1780, are my ggg grandparents and gg grandfather. Mary died in 1798 as you said but her son Archibald didn't marry til 1809 to Jean Wier.
Archibald and Jean are buried in the Inverchaolain Churchyard, beside a headstone marking the burial of Archibald's mother in 1798.
The two headstones are beside a table-top stone but I haven't, at this stage, discovered whose burial that marks.
Just as clarification, there are two Archibald Brown and Mary McKiller/McKellar marriages. They are quite separate. The couple that married in 1800 had two daughters between 1801 and 1803. Their grand daughter married the son of the other Brown/McKellar in 1860 in Australia.
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Hi everyone, I am researching a large armorial stone tablet that is reputedly associated with the Clan Currie, Balilone and Garracharan. I'm desperate to understand the significance of the symbols, text and it's historical origin. Any information greatly appreciated.
Regards
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Hi,
I'm new to Rootschat and stumbled across this website whilst researching my late mothers family, Currie. I seem to have got back as far as my sixth great grandfather, Archibald Currie, who married a Mary B? (annoyingly the documents only show the first letter of her surname. I know they had a son called Malcolm Currie (my fifth Great Grandfather) who was born at Inverchaolain in 1748 but am struggling to find out much more or trace much further back. I’ve read all the posts on this thread and it would seem the Curries were quite important around these parts. I was wondering if anyone has any further information on their history to help me trace further back please?
I live in Dunfermline so may head over to the graveyard at Inverchaolain soon to see if i can find anything there.
Thanks in advance for any assistance
Kind regards
Gary
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David again,
I, too, would be interested in hearing more about possible name changes between McKilmichal and Brown. My 4 x great grandmother Janet McKellar was from Loch Striven and her brother Duncan McKellar married a Margaret Brown in 1784 who is hard to find in earlier documents. Your suggestion might explain that.
Katie
I am new to Roots chat so bear with me if I've got it wrong. The Duncan McKellar married to Margaret brown in 1784 is, I think,my 4 x great grandfather. I have reached a block in finding his parents names to allow me to research a bit further back. I would be grateful for any help.
Also Janet the daughter of Duncan McKellar and Margaret Brown is said to have 6 siblings. I believe Archibald McKellar who married Isobel McNicol in 1809 my 3x great grandad, is her brother but cannot find a birth record. Does anyone have any information re his birth circa.1790
Neil McKellar
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Hi Neil
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Is this Archibald's death reg?
ARCHIBALD MCKELLAR
Age 75
Mother's maiden name BROWN
1862
557 / 1
North Bute
If so, this would let you confirm his parents' names.
Monica
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There are certainly gaps in the OPRs for the births of children to Duncan McKellar and Margaret Brown:
1785 - Mary
1791 - Jannet
1796 - Sarah
1798 - Margaret
1800 - Elspa
1804 - Duncan
Monica
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Thank you Monica
Yes I think that is Archibald's death certificate and would put his birth in 1787. If his age is correct he would have been born between the two sisters Mary and Janet.
Thanks for your help.
My next challenge is finding the parents of Archibald's father Duncan McKellar married to Margaret Brown in 1784👍
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Hello, I am trying to find out who commissioned Glenstriven House. I have found lots of information but it is not consistent, Some says it was the Berry family and some a Douglas Cameron. Any pointers from you experts much appreciated.
Kind regards, Tora
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Hi Tora
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Not seeing anything for a Douglas Cameron connected to Glenstriven House so far.
Some notes here from 1858:
OS1/2/58/93 GLENSTRIVEN
Glenstriven House
Revd. [Reverend] Mr McTavish James Clark D.G. Kennedy Esqre. Propr. [Proprietor]
A fine Mansion-house, with offices and garden &c adjacent. The name of this place was formerly Gortenloist, but since the present proprietor, Mr Kennedy, puchased the estate from Sir J. Fife, it has become very well known by the name Glenstriven
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/argyll-os-name-books-1868-1878/argyll-volume-58?display=transcription
The 1861 census for the address shows:
Duncan C Kennedy 42 Head Landed Proprietor b. Kilmonivaig Argyll www.findagrave.com/memorial/192699375/duncan-cameron-kennedy
Jamima Kennedy 30 www.findagrave.com/memorial/192699921/jemima-kennedy
Grace C Kennedy 5
Williamina I Kennedy 2
Angusina Kennedy 1
Jane Cameron 59 Mother-in-law www.findagrave.com/memorial/193958190/jane-cameron
Address Glenstriven, Inverchaolain, Argyll
Monica
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Walter Berry is showing as owner by 1872-3 https://electricscotland.com/history/Scotland_Owners_of_Lands_and_Heritages_1.pdf
Walter Berry showed in Edinburgh in all the censuses up to his death in 1905. In 1891, he showed as Consul - General for Denmark.
The index to his Will gives this info:
Walter Berry
21 / 2 / 1905
otherwise Walter Oliphant Berry, Glenstriven, 11 Atholl Crescent, Edinburgh, d. 02/12/1904 at Edinburgh, testate.
Monica
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Thank you so much! I have also been going through different databases to try to find out who was the architect who designed the house. Would you have any tips regarding where to look? I havent been able to find anything so far. Thanks again for your help much appreciated.
Tora
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Two screenshots attached, from the First and Second editions of the six-inch Ordnance Survey map. You can see that the footrpint of the house is similar in both.
The First Edition was surveyed in 1865.
So it would appear that the house was built before 1865.
However it's not as simple as it would appear.
The valuation rolls for Inverchaolin do not list Glenstriven until 1895, when the proprietor was Walter Berry. Before this, he is listed as proprietor of Inveravigan (which is almost certainly the Invervegain of the maps) and of Woodlands in 1875 and 1885. He is not listed in 1865.
Inveravigan/Invervegain isn't listed in 1865, but a Col Duncan Campbell (not Cameron) is listed as a proprietor of Woodlands, and Patrick James is also listed as a proprietor of Woodlands.
You would need to get access to the Abridgments of Sasines to find out exactly what property was sold when and by whom to whom. These are not available online so you would need to get someone who is going to the National Records of Scotland or a library that holds copies of the Abridgments to search them for you.
But it looks to me as if Glenstriven House must have been built before Kennedy sold it to Berry.
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Can anyone help with the location of Annait in Inverchaolin ?
I have Inverchaolain church records for births 1785,1804 and 1813 of McKellars with the place of birth "Annait"
I also have a marriage in 1784 of Duncan McKellar to Margaret Brown from "Annait".
I have searched the old maps and although there is a tobar na t Annait in glendaruel but I'm not convinced that is relevant
Neil