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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: janan on Thursday 26 April 07 11:20 BST (UK)
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Hi
Don't know if anyone can help with this one - it isn't a very specific look-up, just a hope of some sightings of these people :D This is what I have so far
Apprentices
1744 CARVER Sam Thos of Southill Beds to Edw Watts of Hitchin Whlw £12
Samuel CARVER (Wheelwright) married Mary PRYOR at Hitchin St. Mary on 15 April 1759.
CARVER John, Thomas, Elizabeth and Mary baptised Hitchin St Mary 25 Mar 1768 children of Samuel and Mary
Given Samuel's occupation and Bedfordshire origin I am trying to tie them in with my Wrestlingworth wheelwright Carvers - so need to establish what happened to them all. If anyone can spot burials, marriages, anything that would be fantastic :D
Cheers Jan ;)
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Hi
Just nudging this back up the board. I've got nowhere with this one. No marriages showing on the IGI in Herts for the children - how well extracted is Hertfordshire?
I did notice this marriage which could be a first one for Samuel
Ippollitts 10 Oct 1754 Samuel Carver to Margaret Walker
but as the NBI doesn't start till 1800 I'm unlikely to find a burial for her :(
Oh well :D
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
There are no entries for the surname CARVER in the Hertfordshire Burial Index 1800-1851.
The Allen Index for marriages in Hertfordshire has seven CARVER entries for the period 1604-1759. The last two would appear to be of interest and from the parish records the details are ...
St.Ippollitts - Samuel CARVER of Hitchin and Margaret WALKER of this parish were married by Banns 10Oct1754.
Hitchin St.Mary. - Samuel CARVER of Hitchin, wheelwright and Mary PRYOR spinster of this parish were married by banns on 15thApr1759. Witnesses Robert DRAPER and William MARYATT (Church official). (No mention of Samuel being a widower.)
A search of St.I burial records revealed - 27Oct1758 Margaret, wife of Samuel CARVER of Hitchin, Wheelwright.
Hope this helps.
Regards ... Peter
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Hi Peter
That is really helpful, thank you. From the occupation and place of residence it does look highly likely that the two Samuel's are one and the same. Margaret's burial date adds weight. I wonder if she and Samuel had any children?
Does the Allen index only cover the period 1604-1759? Just wondering about marriages for the children of Samuel and Mary.
As there are no burials in Herts 1800-1851, Samuel and family (at least the boys and Mary unless she remarried) must have died before this date or moved out of county - nothing showing in Beds though.
Thanks again
Regards
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
There were actually 11 CARVER entries in the Allen Index, the latest four being ...
23Apr1863 Gentlemans Magazine Fred.Charles CARVER of Royston to Kate DANSEY.
Jul1871 Hoddesdon Joseph CARVER Hoddesdon to Hester STUBBINS of Henham,Essex.
03Feb1878 Hodddesdon William CARVER of Stratford Essex to Lucy RANDALL of Hoddesdon
21Apr1879 Ware St.Mary William Adolph CARVER of Ware to Fanny ROBERSON of Ware
Regards ... Peter
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Thanks for that Peter - it does look as if the family may well have moved or all died without marrying pre 1800. Certainly by 1841 there are no Carvers in Hertfordshire. In 1851 however there is a John Carver born Hertford c1805 living in St Pancras with wife Amelia born Maidstone - I have a feeling he could be linked. No baptism or marriage showing on the IGI of course :)
To make things more complicated this family does have non-conformist tendancies - the Southill Carvers were strong Baptists - this wouldn't account for no marriages though.
Does anyone reading this have access to burial records for Hitchin 1768-1800? Any Carvers buried in that time frame would be very helpful. Also I wonder if there was any extra info on this mass baptism?
CARVER John, Thomas, Elizabeth and Mary baptised Hitchin St Mary 25 Mar 1768 children of Samuel and Mary
Thanks again
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
I searched the Hitchin parish burial records and found just one CARVER entry during the period 1768-1800 viz 01Dec1777 Mary CARVER widow.
The mass baptism at Hitchin St.Mary 25Mar1768 records children of Samuel and Mary, wheelwright as ...
1. Thomas born 27Jan1860. 2. Mary 10May1861. 3. John 02Dec1862 and 4. Elizabeth 04Apr1865.
Regret no trace of a John CARVER baptism at Hertford circa 1805.
Regards ... Peter
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Thank you so much Peter. Although much remains a mystery at least I now know Samuel must have died before Dec 1777 and that from his birthdate John is unlikely to be mine.
Cheers Jan ;)
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Hi Peter
If you have the time at some point could you possibly check the Allen Index and Hitchin burials again using the variants Calver, Carvel(l), Carvil(l) and Carvile please?
Thank you in anticipation
Regards
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Regret none of those variants appear in the Allen Marriage Index or Hertfordshire Burials 1800-1850 in the Hitchin area.
Regards ... Peter
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Thanks for looking Peter :D
Jan ;)
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Hi,
I am beginning to think that this Samuel Carver may be mine as I have a John and Thomas Carver who both died in London and the birth dates tie in s well as the link to Southill. However, I would need to find a brother (Half brother) of John & Thomas called Samuel born c1756. Is it possible that he was a son from Samuel's first marriage to Margaret?
Is anyone able to check the baptisms fot St Ippolittes for that period please?
Many thanks
Chris Carver
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There were actually 11 CARVER entries in the Allen Index, the latest four being ...
23Apr1863 Gentlemans Magazine Fred.Charles CARVER of Royston to Kate DANSEY.
This Fred Charles Carver of Royston is one of mine, descended from the Melborne Cambs branch. I had only guessed his marriage from FReeBMD and subsequent census returns, but of the 2 females on that page which fitted I plumped for Catherine Cracknell. There was no mention anywhere of a Kate Dansey, although the eldest child had a middle name of Dansey. Would I be right to change the name to Kate on this evidence wthout getting the marriage cert?
Chris
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Hi Chris
Given the use of Dansey as a middle-name I would take this as the right marriage- but looking on the 1861 census the only match for Frederick's wife is Kate Cracknell born Ludlow ??? So what is going on? Is this one and the same person? I would say more burrowing needed :D
Jan ;)
In 1861 there is a Kate Dansey born Gloucestershire c1836 living in Westminster who could be the one Fred married in Herts. The marriage to Kate Cracknell same qtr 1863 is in St George Hanover Sq. Now I would say you have two different Fred C Carvers here as there do appear to be two different Kates. But your Fred is definitely married to Kate Cracknell from Ludlow in 1871 and has a child with middlename Dansey born Royston ??? ??? My head has now exploded ;D
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Hi Jan,
Perhaps it was Kate Dansey Cracknell. As you say, more burrowing requiredbut I am away next week and may have to wait.
Chris
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Chris
See my modification above - we crossed in the post :D
Jan ;)
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Hi Chris,
I searched the St.Ippolitts PRs for the period 1750-1765 but regret no trace of a baptism for Samuel CARVER.
Regards ... Peter
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Hi Peter,
Many thanks for that. This family still seems to be my best bet, but will have to do a bit more digging elsewhere to try and prove the connection.
Chris
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Hi Chris
Don't know whether you ever saw my extra thoughts on Fred C and the double marriage to Kate Cracknell and Kate Dansey - added to my post of the 17 Jan on previous page. You had gone by the time I posted the modification.
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Yes thanks, I saw it but the Herts marriage does not appear on freebmd, not had a chance to check ancestry yet. Off overseaes again next week, so busy getting ready for the trip.
Will get on the case once we get back - I can see a research trip to Bedford area soon.
Chris
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Hi Jan
With the apparent death of Samuel pre 1777 does this knock a possible Wrestlingworth link on the head? Or is there still a chance?
Regards
David
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Hi Chris
Just checked the complete BMD images for you - there is only the St George Hanover Sq marriage Apr-may-jun qtr 1863 so back to Kate Cracknell/Dansey being one and the same I think. Assume the marriage sneaked onto the Allen Index because he was from Royston ???
Jan ;)
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Hi David
I think I've pretty much ruled Samuel out as direct line but still wonder about some connection because of his trade. Possible my John born (most likely in Dunton) c 1758 was apprenticed to him as distant family?? Still working on it!
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Thanks for the check on BMD.
Samuel from Southill has only ever been a good guess and has always been a shadowy figure, so an early death would not rule him out.
I think I need to find a marriage for Thomas and John to see if the wive's names check and whether they mention a father's name. Might also search for a will for Samuel.
Regards
Chris
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Hi Jan, I am not sure I can help you with your Carvers but you might be able to help me with mine. I have got as far as James and Sophia Carver. Sophia came from Southill Beds.
Cazzanne
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Hi Cazanne
Although James and Sophia are not in my direct line they have sparked my interest, see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,229051.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,248529.0.html
As you can see they are both somewhat shadowy figures but hopefully the above will give you more info for further research.
There is also this very long confusing thread which grew from a look-up to a gathering of the Carver clan - there might be something you can pick out of it which is of use. Certainly James and Sophia do get a mention!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,21720.0.html
Jan ;)
I thought I recognized your name Cazanne - we met before on the Beds board, Scott's Bird family thread :D
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Just found these Chris
John Carver of Hitchin apprenticed to William Estwick, Weaver of Hitchin father Samuel Carver Mar 25 1778
Thomas Carver of Hitchin apprenticed to James Alldred, Silk Weaver of Bethnal Green, Middlesex father Samuel Carver Dec 29 1773
That Thomas was apprenticed in Bethnal Green looks good :D
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Thanks, I did know about them and asked the Herts Archives for a quote to retrieve them. I received an order form and quote for £14 the day before I left to go on holiday, so will order them once I get back unless I decide to wait until my Bedford research trip in Jan - 2 nights in a Travelodge at £9 per night, too good an offer to pass up!
Chris
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Hi Chris
£14 seems a lot and if they are anything like an apprenticeship record I have they won't include anymore info. However it is nice to see the original and I probably couldn't resist.
Have a good holiday
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
As mentioned on the Carver Ramblings thread, I spent a day at Hertford last week. I was trying to find the connection between Samuel Carver of Bowles and Carver Printsellers of London and Samuel Carver of Southill apprenticed to Edward Watts of Hitchin. I was fairly certain that Samuel jnr was a son from Samuel senior's first marriage to Margaret Walker. While I have not found absolute proof, mainly because the Southill Carvers were strong non conformists and therefore no baptisms found, I have found a lot of circumstantial evidence.
First the timeline:
1744 - Samuel Thomas Carver of Southill apprenticed to Edward Watts, wheelwright of Hitchin in 1744 (SOG apprentices) Query was this one or two people, no sign found of a Thomas Carver in Hitchin
1749 - Edward watts living in Bull Street Corner (Poor Rate Assessments)
8 Apr 1752 Carrington Bowles (founder of print company) m Ann Field Hitchin St Mary
10 Oct 1754 - Samuel Carver m Margaret Walker St Ippolytes
1754 - 1756 - Sam Carver resident in Bull Street Corner, "disappears" until 1764, but Charles Bowles "appears" in same location until death, did he own property and was he paying rates instead of Sam? (Poor Rate Assessments)
1756 - Sam Carver jnr born (from obituary)
25 Oct 1758 - Margaret Carver buried St Ippolytes
15 Apr 1759 - Sam Carver m Mary Prior Hitchin St Mary
1760-1765 - 4 Children born
19 Feb 1763 - Charles Bowles gentleman buried Hitchin St Mary
1764-1767 - Sam Carver reappears resident in Tiled House Street, Hitchin. No Bowles in Bull Street Corner - was it sold?
25 Feb 1767 - Sam Carver buried Hitchin St Mary
Sep 1767 - Widow Carver and 3,2 paid various sums in poor relief (Overseers accounts)
25 Mar 1768 - Thomas, Mary, John, Elizabeth carver baptised Hitchin St Mary
Sep 1769 - Widow Carver in Workhouse
29 Dec 1773 - Thomas Carver apprenticed to James Alldred, Silk Weaver, of Bethnal Green, Middlesex for the sum of £5 paid by Mr John Midwinter Treasurer of Mr Kemp's Publick Charity of Hitchin
7 Dec 1777 - Mary Carver buried Hitchin St Mary
25 Mar 1778 - John Carver apprenticed to William Estwick, a Weaver, for a sum of £5 paid by John Midwinter Treasurer of Mr Joseph Kemp's Publick Charity in Hitchin.
Sam jnr eventually went into partnership with Henry Carrington Bowles, son of Henry Bowles.
Conclusions:
The Bowles link is there.
4 children baptised after Samuel senior's death, possibly forced in order to continue poor relief. By this time Samuel junior had possibly gone to London to work for Henry Bowles, but initially after death of father poor relief shows Mary and 3 boys, 2 girls, perhaps the only evidence there was an extra child?
On Henry Bowle's marriage settlement certificate he is described as a citizen of London and his possible brother is a Joiner of London. Sam jnr eventually became a member of the Worshipful Company of Joiners.
What do you think?
Chris
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Wow :D
A good days work all that is lacking is a baptism for Samuel jnr otherwise it is all hanging together nicely. I suppose he could have been baptised as an adult or a Baptist (which would also have been as an adult wouldn't it??)
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
Cracked it! Visited LMA yesterday where I had ordered the apprenticeship records of the Joiners Company:
May 1770 Samuel Carver son of Samuel Carver late of Hitchin in the county of Hertfordshire wheelwright deceased to Carrington Bowles Joiner and Freeman of London for 7 years.
This is a bit of a paraphrase, if anyone would like a copy of the original entry, I will send via email.
Back there again this morning and may visit SOG as well.
Chris
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That's great Chris ;D
Jan ;)