RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: ankerdine on Wednesday 02 May 07 21:33 BST (UK)
-
My husband's grandmother, Mary Ann Hawker nee Davies was born in Aston, Birmingham in 1874. Her parents were George Davies (Grocer) and Ann Davies both of Wales (Not Known). She was married to Alfred Theodore Hawker and I have their wedding certificate, which is where I found the information about her parents. How do I go about researching the Davies connection and where her parents came from in Wales. Ann Davies died in 1929 aged 79 and is buried in St. Matthews Churchyard, Duddeston, Birmingham.
-
Hi Ankerdine
I would have a go at the 1881 census which is free and which states the occupation of the head of household - grocer should be relatively easy to spot!
I will try to remember to come back & see how you get on, so post here...
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
-
In 1881 she is showing as the Grandaughter of a Peter Davies who was born in Shrewsbury Shropshire in c 1814,and his Wife Martha.unfortunately this couple are not showing in 18611,but in 1851,they do have a son George aged eight,but his Birthplace is not clearly showing.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
-
This looks like Mary Ann in 1901
No 1 Back of 104 Willis St
Aston Birmingham
Ann Davies Head Widow 51 Wales NK
Alfred T Hawker son in law 26 Cycle Stamper
Mary Ann Hawker daughter 27
Gertie Hawker Granddaughter 3
Edith Ethel granddaughter 2
Alfred Frank Hawker grandson 7mths
Samuel Herbert Boarder 21 Brass Finisher
all except Ann b. Birmingham
RG13 2870 90 1
Problem is the only Ann Davies I have located is in 1871 where she is 21 unmarried b. Wales NK and working as a servant in Birnmingham
Does the marriage cert say George was deceased?
Who were witnesses at the marriage-may give an extra clue if they were family
Suz
-
Thanks to you all for your replies. I will sort out additional information and post. Yes, the 1901 census info is accurate. George was deceased on the wedding certificate but I will have to check the names of the witnesses to see if it helps. We just remember husband's father saying "the family (don't know which one, whether mother's or father's) came from The Malverns on the back of a cart". Ever heard that one before, eh?
-
Whilst it was not perhaps ideal transportation Ankerdine,at least there were very little Carbon emissions!
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
-
Needless to say I just hope this story was true. It's the country which is beyond the Malverns which is ellusive!
I had a quick look on the 1881 census but couldn't locate any George Davies who could be the one. Perhaps I will have another look.
Mary Ann married on 19 April 1897, aged 23, in St. Saviours Church, Saltley, not St. Matthews, Duddeston, as I quoted before. Witnesses were listed as Charles Humphries and Martha Astbury, neither of whom are known in the surviving family.
On Ann Davies' death card dated January 14th, 1929, she was Aged 79 years so, possibly was born in 1849. No talk of any siblings either I'm afraid.
More research must be done on this one.
-
With apologies to William Russell Jones. I hadn't taken in what you posted earlier. Upon searching LDS I came across your findings (1881 census) and they make very good sense, although Ann is daughter not daughter-in-law. You say that you found George on the 1851 aged 8 - do you think you can possibly find anything further for me please?
-
It is extremely difficult to get any sort of angle on it.I have been trying to find George in 1871 but to no avail.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
-
William Russell Jones
Do you think that Mary Ann was illegitimate as there is a "U" against Ann? However, George Davies is clearly stated as her father on the MC. Ann is also a widow on the 1901 census. What could Fanny's proper name be? Mary Ann was known as Polly in later years. I have been searching LDS for ages and it's given me quite a headache! Thanks for your continued persistance.
-
The entry for Ann in 1881 could be an error by the Enumerator,but in any event this Ann was not with with the Family in 1871.Fanny could possibly be short for Francis.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
-
I have decided to "have another go" at this family.
I have ordered Mary Ann Davies birth certificate but the Registrar (Genealogy) telephoned today to say that he couldn't find the one naming George as the father. In all other respects another one he found was the match (even correct birth date) but this one had no named father!
I have still requested this certificate as I am sure it's the right one.
I have done a bit of detective work and wondered if someone could find these entries for me on the 1861 Census.
Place: Wolverhampton East.
Peter Davies, Martha Davies, Martha (Jr), George, Ann, Mary and Fanny.
If this is the same family then perhaps brother George was the father! I wonder how I could find out if he did become a grocer or perhaps I am on the wrong track?
OH says that there was a mystery surrounding his grandmother so this could be it.
Judy
-
1861 5 Gt Francis St, Duddeston cum Nechells RG9/2180 folio 27 pg 47
Peter Davis head mar 49 bricklayer b. Shropshire, Church Pulverbatch
Martha Ann wife 49 b. Northants, Yardley Gobion
Mary dau 15 b. Northants, Northampton
Ann dau 12 b. Shropshire, Shrewsbury
John son 9 b. Wolverhampton
Fanny dau 7 b. Wolverhampton
Peter James son 4 b. Birmingham
1851 Stafford St, Wolverhampton HO107/2019 folio 139 pgs 23 - 4
Peter Davies head mar 39 bricklayer journeyman b. Shrops, Wentan (? Wrentnall?)
Martha wife 36 b. Northants, Yardley Gobion
Martha dau 10 b, Northants ?
George son 8 B. Northants
Mary dau 6 b. Northampton
Ann dau 2 b. Shrewsbury
The pob for George & Martha is not clear but could be Deanshanger. However, that doesn't tie in with the possible birth regs I found for them both in Potterspury. Reasonably sure about the marriage reg
Peter Davies sept qtr 1840 Potterspury vol 15 pg 476 with Martha Ann Wise on the same page
Potterspury covers Yardley Gobion
The George Davies on the marriage cert could just be there instead of having an embarrassing blank. It doesn't mean he was her father.
:-\
-
Hello Ospsrey
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply to my request. The information contained in the 2 census records is very useful and some of it I certainly didn't know before.
Peter was born at Wentnor just slightly north-east of Bishop's Castle, sheltering behind the Long Mynd, depending which way the wind comes! However, I have just looked at my map and found Church Pulverbatch (Wrentnall) isn't near Wentnor so I must have got it wrong! Sorry.
Deanshanger is actually a couple of miles due south of Potterspury and Yardley Gobion so that reference could be correct.
The Registrar (Genealogy) of Birmingham did say the same as you that the reference to George Davies could be just a falsehood to hide the truth.
"Suzard" on a previous post below said that in 1871 she found Ann (born Wales, NK) as a Servant in Birmingham. Is it possible that you could give me any further details of this entry please?
It's funny that eventually Mary Ann married into the "Hawker" family many of whom were bricklayers and builders by trade too.
Thank you once again for all you have done for me so far. I attach a photo of Ann Davies for your interest.
Judy
-
that's a lovely photo and in such good condition as well! :D
Anyway, here's the 1871 as asked for but given that Ann Davies is a very common name, I wouldn't like to say if it's the correct one
12 Wood St, Birmingham St Thomas RG10/3100 folio 63 pg 25
Horatio Heptinstall head mar 51 file manufacturer b. Birmingham
Eliza wife 58 b. Stafford, Milwich
Eliza dau 21 b. Glos, Bristol
Joseph A brother 50 file cutter b. Birmingham
Caroline sister 52 assistant housekeeper b. Birmingham
Ann Davies 21 general servant b. Wales NK
The only birth reg in Northampton that seems to fit the daughter of Peter & Martha is
Ann Davis june qtr 1845 Northampton vol 15 pg 313
I spotted that possible baptism for Peter in Wentnor and did wonder. The IGI batch for Church Pulverbatch ends in 1812, and he may have been baptised after that. That's all you need - a Davies who gives different places of birth every census. At least it's not a common first name. If he was the one baptised in Wentnor, you might expect a William or Sarah among his children.
As for George, I haven't spotted him for certain in any census after 1851. There are a couple of possible death regs for a George Davies in Aston - sept qtr 1856 and june qtr 1859.
I can't spot the family on the 1841 census when they may be in Deanshanger.
-
This is a really interesting project. You have given me some more information to work on. Thank you once again.
I think that the 1871 census details you have given me in Birmingham are the correct ones. As stated previously I have Ann Davies's Death Card which states her age as 79 in January 1929 although that's no guarantee either!
I suppose a disadvantage of picking up part of your tree which has been left dormant is that you are liable to forget detail previously found. I will recheck Mary Ann's marriage certificate and see if I missed something.
Strangely enough, I have never requested a Death Certificate, thinking that there's not that much useful information on them. Is this true, do you think. Oh, my mistake I did request a couple of Scottish ones but they do give much more information, don't they?
Where are you in Scotland? Anywhere near Dumfries and Galloway?
Yes, the photo is rather clear. I was surprised when I posted it how well it came up. She does look rather serious. I ought to repost it on the Photograph Restoration Board and ask how old she is. What do you think?
Judy
-
death certs are a bit hit and miss. It could say widow of.., but the info would only be as good as the knowledge of the person registering the death. So, if it was Mary Ann registering, it might be interesting to see if she remembered what she said at her marriage and repeats George Davies, grocer. But if Mary Ann wasn't in attendance, who knows what you'll get.
Have you checked her burial to see if she's with anyone else?
No, not Galloway although I have the surname in my tree, the family was from Kinross area but very unhelpfully weren't too keen on parish registers! In Glasgow at the moment, but Welsh just to confuse.
;D
-
I will check those additional suggestions. Thanks.
Is that why "osprey" = rugby = Swansea, or another red herring! ;)
J
-
You're not wrong!
;D
-
The birth certificate arrived this morning. It doesn't mention anything about a father at all as we suspected. Ann Davies is a domestic servant living at 19 Claverdon Street, Aston, where the birth also took place apparently.
So, I may well request the death certificate as you suggest.
My eldest son lives in Swansea with his OH and baby son Rhys!
Judy
-
There are 2 Ann Davies' births mentioned in the June quarter of 1849 for Shrewsbury on freeBMD. How do I know which is mine? Any suggestions please?
Judy
-
either order the cert for Ann using father's name of Peter as a check, or order the birth cert of one of the more easily identifiable children - one of the ones registered Potterspury or Peter James Davies march qtr 1857 Aston vol 6d pg 247 to get details of the parents. Sometimes you have to go sideways to go further back.
;)
-
Thanks, I will.
Judy
-
I have researched a little further with this family. Can anyone help me with this question. The youngest son of Peter James Davies and Martha was a Peter James born 1857. He died aged 16 in 1873 in Birmingham. Can anyone tell me the cause of death please?
Judy
-
the cause of death would be on the death certificate.