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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: DJH on Friday 18 May 07 16:36 BST (UK)
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My GGrandmother, Eliza Hartshorn, was born in 1865 at Hookagate, Brace Meole. Her father was William, a coal miner and her mother was Sarah Ann (formerly Jones).
In the 1871 Census, William is living with Sarah Ann at Brace Meole with ELIJAH, their SON born at Hookagate and aged 5 years!
In the 1881 Census, ELIJAH is now 15 and a Farm labourer!
What happened to ELIZA?
Help needed urgently please.
David :-[
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My guess would be that the census enumerators mis-heard and put down Eliza as Elijah. But twice...? :-\
Could there have been twins?
meles
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Thank you Meles,
That is what I wondered. However, I am a twin and I know today that the actual time of birth is put on twins birth certificates. Perhaps this didn't happen in 1865.
I am totally at a loss as to where to look next.
David
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Is it possible that a girl could have be brought up as a boy until about 15 years old?
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I've looked up FreeBMD and there is no Eliza or Elijah there....
Have you got a birth certificate?
meles
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i have a Colin in my tree on one census he is Colin and on another he is Coleen but luckily he is still down as son
maybe the parents put Eliza down as a boy to help out on the farm or soemthing, or maybe Eliza was elsewhere on the night of the census
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I do have Eliza's birth certificate. Would it be possible to fool the Registrar. Do you have to have the baby with you when it is registered?
David
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No, but whilst the enumerator might have been in a bit of a hurry, the Registrar would have got the right details. I hope!
meles
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Thanks Toni*,
"elsewhere"? Do you mean staying somewhere else or do you mean not being included on the Census?
David
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Apologies if this is a daft question, but are you sure it's the right family? When did your Eliza marry, because Elijah is still unmarried and living with his parents in 1901....
RG13; Piece: 2541; Folio: 36; Page: 5
Hookagate, Atcham
William Hartshorn - Head - 62 - Coal Miner - Birmingham
Sarah Ann Hartshorn - Wife - 55 - Pontesbury
Elijah Hartshorn - Son - 35 - Cow [...] - Hookagate
William Hartshorn - Son - 26 - Coal Miner - Hookagate
Rachel Hartshorn - Dau - 15 - Hookagate
Rambler
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1841 census Meole brace, Shrewsbury, place Hook a gate,
Elijah Hartshorn miner 45 y
Elizabeth " 40 y
Emma " 10 y
Hanna " 2 y
Jane " 14 y
John " 12 y
Rebecca " 8 y
WILLIAM " 1 y
ho107 , piece 910. folio 33, page 6.
Dont know If you got this already?
Pete :) :)
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Thanks Rambler.
That makes it more complicated.
Could there be another William AND Sarah Ann? How would I find them?
You see, Eliza doesn't seem to feature in the Census of 1871 when she would have been 6 years nor in the 1881 Census.
David
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Thanks pete,
I have seen this but as you will see I could be looking at the wrong William! I can't find another though.
Here's a question:
If someone else gave birth to Eliza, would this William and Sarah Ann get away with registering her as their baby but not keeping it with them?
David
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I meant somewhere else on the night of the census working somewhere or maybe she was travelling abroad.
it was usual for people to name the children after themselves or their parents so Elijah after Williams father and Eliza after his mother.
if someone else gave birth to the child then her parents name would be different on the birth certificate which i take it are not as you have the birth certificate.
have you only looked on Freebmd? as this is not complete Ancestry have the full list but ti is very time consuming trawling through all the pages.
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As you have the names of Eliza's parents from her birth cert, I would suggest getting their marriage cert to check William's age, and help locate him on census:
Marriages Dec 1864
HARTSHORN William
JONES Sarah Anne
Atcham 6a 1304
It's possible William died young, and Sarah re-married, on which case Eliza might be listed under her step-father's name.
I'll have another look at censuses....
Rambler
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FREEBMD have an Eliza Hartshorn registered in the last q of 1865 at Shrewsbury, 6a, 628 (isn't Meole Brace very near Shrewsbury?)
Ancestry have an Elizah b abt 1866 with a William and Sarah A on the 1871, somewhere in Shropshire (sorry I don't have access to see the page).
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Thanks Toni*,
FreeBMD - does it have a website? I will try to find it.
I was rather thinking that William and Sarah Ann put their names on the birth cert. as the real parents were not able to; not married, to young etc.,?
Rambler,
I could try to get a marriage cert. for their ages. Thanks.
David
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Thanks Dudley,
I think that is my Eliza as the heading on the birth cert. is St Chad Shrewsbury in the registration district of Shrewsbury.
The Elijah Census result for 1871 I have and he is a SON which is the problem.
David
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The ancestry page I found had Elizah, rather than Elijah and the only other child I could find at the same address (by comparing file numbers) was a Harry born about 1869.
but I don't have full access so perhaps someone else could read the page.
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I think it says Elijah, not Elizah, looking at the other Elizabeths on the page and the way the enumerator writes his "Z"s.
The only other person with family is grandmother Elizabeth 74
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I think you are right. It definitely says SON though. So where is Eliza who was certainly born?
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I think the 'j' is dotted.
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Hi....
Taking this from another angle...she was your grt grandmother so when did she marry and where and to who ?
If we can account for her on nearest census and work back there maybe a clue.
Do you have the marriage cert of great grand parents?
Tazzie
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I do know quite a bit about GGrandma Eliza including when and where she gave birth to my Grandfather and also where, and to whom, she married and where she died and when. I just cannot find her and it is in hope of someone saying that they had an Eliza in their family who probably disappeared or took another name that I might be able to pin her down. I have her parents names on her birth certificate.
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She seems to be still with her parents, aged 35, in 1901 at Meole Brace, but that's a bit odd too as Ancestry have indexed her as Eliza, possibly Hartshorn Hartshorn and National Archives have her as Elizabeth Hartshorn, occupation cowman - do you think this is what confused the enumerators if they kept telling them that she is the cowman?!
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Ok....so who did she marry...working backwards may help pin point the area and we can then double check the birth that you have as the right one.
If you have marriage cert it would confirm father.
I only found my grt grandfather when I found a newspaper detailing the inquest to his death in 1910.
He was Albert Green birth cert said father John Green.
However John Green had died ..his mother remarried a Millard and on all census he was indexed as Albert Millard. It took four years to find him!
Just a thought but it may help the searchers.
Tazzie
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It is a possibility she was a cowperson, and assumptions were made...
meles
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Playing devil's advocate,
How can you be so certain that you have the birth certificate of 'your' particular Eliza Hartshorn, and not another?.
Other posts of yours attest to family stories that her father was Joseph...
Just what details are shown on EACH document that you hold which DEFINITELY relate to your Eliza, rather than any other.
A crude search on the transcribed birth indexes reveal several candidates born in that time frame. Which of the many have you elimininated/are still unaccounted for?
Pauline
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Thank you all for your interest and help. As you can see I am confused and not sure where to look. The information I have which I know to be true is:
1887 Eliza Hartshorn gave birth to my Grandad in the Union Workhouse at Atcham.
His name was John William and his father was William Kennedy (not named on cert. but known to be true)
1891 Living as the "wife" of Ezekiel Hutchinson and son John William aged 4, in Newcastle upon Tyne.
1898 In Carliol Prison, Gateshead for being 'drunk and disorderly' as a result of which Grandad was taken to the Industrial School, Newcastle.
1901 Eliza was lodging with a couple called Ward in Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire and Grandad was still in the Industrial School.
1906 Eliza married Abraham Hill at Ashby. Grandad came down looking for her and to finish his Printers apprenticeship in Ashby. She said she was 37 and her father was Joseph a collier (I did find a Joseph in the Londen area aged 19 who could have been her father ?)
1911 Eliza died aged 43
That is all I know and I still can't find her parents. I must be missing something I think.
David
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David, as I mentioned in yesterday's thread...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,233342.msg1249096.html#msg1249096
...I do think it's dangerous to try to work *forward* from Elizas (or indeed Elijahs) in the 1860s to try to establish a connection with your Eliza who was in Ashby de la Zouch in 1901/Newcastle in 1891.
Edited - of course there's nothing wrong with trying to find Elizas who fit the bill, but what you *know* (so far as I understand it from yesterday) is the 1891/1901 information, rather than that the 1865 Brace Meole birth is the right person :)
Anna
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Hello Anna,
I do agree with you but I just don't know how to work back from what I have. This is why I am flailing helplessly. The information I am getting is helping me to cross some ideas off and pursue others.
David
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Ok, keeping it brief as I'm cooking...
1887: Anything in the minutes/records of the workhouse about her?
Where is Atcham?
1891: Her stated age & birthplace? who else in the family unit? age birthplace(s)
1898: Anyting regarding age/origins/associates in the court/prison records?
1901; Age & birthplace, who are the Wards, (Traceback through census)?
1906: witness name(s), address(es)?
> (I did find a Joseph in the Londen area aged 19 who could have been her father ?)
What does this comment mean? I know of no place called londen and an age of 19 means nothing without saying when & where this sighting occurred.....
Off to stir the pans...
Pauline
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In 1891 she looks to be aged 24 and born Shropshire Shrewsbury, no other people in houshold (just Ezekial (30), Eliza and John W (4)) :-\
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Hi David...
Have been looking around ..has this one been suggested?
RG11/2643 F57 PAGE 4
LONGDEN Pontesbury Shrops.
Edwin Hartshorn h m m 40 Pontesbury coal miner
Sarah w m f 37 " "
ELIZABETH D U F 13 " "
Annie d u f 10 " " scholar
Adda d u f 8 " " " "
John s u m 4 " " " ".
The age now fits with age at death of 43 in 1911 b @1868
and telling son John she was 37 in 1906 b @ 1869.
Tazzie
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This could be her but I don't know how to verify it.
I am trying to reply to Pauline but keep losing all the information before I can post it!!!!!!!!!
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1887. No records - they were lost in transferring to an archive!Atcham is near Shrewsbury.
1891. Living as Mrs Eliza Hutchinson with Ezekiel her husband and John William Hutchinson her son aged 4 years. Aged 24 and born in Shrewsbury.
1898. No details in prison records or even age.
1901. Living as a Boarder with Mr and Mrs Ward (I cannot trace them to a link) She was 31 and single and a laundress.
1906. She was 37, a spinster still living in Market Street, Ashby de la Zouch. Her witnesses were Sarah Dolman and George Davis both of whom I have been unable to link to her.
In 1871 a Joseph hartshorn aged 19 years and a coal miner was living at Longden Common near Shrewsbury. Ten years later he is still living there married to an Eliza!
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The 19 year old Joseph looks to be this one....
Joseph Hartshorn m Eliza Cooper 1878 Atcham q3.
I was thinking along the lines of him being Edwin Joseph or Joseph Edwin by name and only using one on the census.
Does the marriage cert still state fathers name and whether alive or deceased.
My grt grandad gave fathers name as John Green when he married.....but John Green died 6 years before he was born his mother had a lodger John Millard who she married the following year and all the children became Millards on 1891/1901 census. So we do have to lean a little in another direction sometimes.
Tazzie
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Thanks Tazzie.
I had noticed Joseph's marriage to Eliza Cooper but unless I find someone who actually knows of his family I seem to be unable to link my GGrandmother, Eliza, to him. It is so frustrating isn't it!
When Eliza married in 1906 she gave her fathers name as Joseph and his work as coal miner which would fit AND I havebeen unable to find any other Joseph to fit the dates and area too.
David