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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: dee-jay on Saturday 19 May 07 02:37 BST (UK)
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I posted the following in October 2005 on an old thread 'Exeter - Paris Street' without any response whatsoever, so I hope you won't mind me trying again?
My interest in Paris Street appears to pre-date other subscribers, but I had this little 'gem' tucked away in my GILL file:
THE TIMES
Friday May 19 1837 page 5, column a
On Wednesday night, about 10 o’clock, a very extensive fire broke out in Paris-street, Exeter. It commenced in the premises of Mr. Hooper, a builder. The fire burnt rapidly, and soon extended to Silver-place, where six or seven houses were in a short time entirely destroyed; and the remaining houses in that place were on fire. In all, about nine houses had been destroyed, and others were involved in flames at the time our informant left Exeter, which was past 12 o’clock on Wednesday evening. The fire was also continuing its ravages along Paris-street.
My interest stems from my Gt-gt-grandfather, James GILL, who rose through the ranks from post-boy [not the GPO variety!] of Poltimore Square 1835 to Coachman on the over-night Defiance out of Exeter to London, by 1841 on the Ilminster stage of that route, where he is recorded in 1841 Census.
James had issue baptised at Colyton, Ilminster and Membury but I've not found a baptism for son Thomas Page GILL born 30 March 1838 at Paris Street, St Sidwell, Exeter; Father's occupation then Coachman.
Sadly, James died in 1844 from pulmonary consumption, denying me the opportunity to establish his origins, and was buried in Yarcombe. However, I am fortunate that two death notices have been located:
The Taunton Courier of 31 January 1844 records on page 7 the death:
‘At Long-hill, Mr. James GILL, for many years driver of the Defiance coach, on the Ilminster Road.’
The Sherborne Journal records in its Deaths column of 25 January 1844:
'January 19, Mr. James GILL, for some years the coachman of the Defiance Coach, whose death was accelerated by too constant exposure to the night air and damp weather.
If some kind soul is in a position to check for similar in any Exeter newspapers of the period, it is possible that some reference may be made to James GILL's origins as he was likely to be well-known to West Country travellers of the 1830s/40s.
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Noticed this link for another thread might help to post there?!!?
http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/EM/index.html
Knellie
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Thanks, Knellie. I did not see your reply until late last night and I've just spent several hours on the recommended website!
dee-jay
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Hi,
wonder if the following is of interest to you from an inquest in 1838. Taunton Courier Aug 15 1838 Ilminster. - Inquest of James Simpson:
James Gill, coachman of the Defiance. – I knew the deceased one year, he slept with me three nights; saw him about ten o’clock on Thursday night, in the bar-room with one or two others; I did not think him much in liquor; did not see him drink anything; ten minutes after I came in, deceased went to bed. I went to bed just after twelve o’clock and found him in bed, he was lying in his usual way on his left side; there was a rattling in the throat, and appeared to be asleep, and snoring; I went down and called up Colmer, who went up wth me; and when he came into the room, I said, “I do not think Simpson is very well; I think he will die if not better; I seem he is rather queer.” Colmer went to the side of him, and unbuttoned his shirt collar, which was very tight, and lifted up his head; after which deceased seemed to breathe rather more freely. I then said, “I think I had better go to another bed, and let him sleep by himself.” Colmer said, “I do not think there is much the matter with him, and looking at him again, thought his breath was better, and said I do not mind sleeping with him.” I then wished Colmer good night, and putting out the candle, went to bed. I slept soundly all the night, and waking in the morning about a quarter before seven, and sitting down at the bottom of the bed, I noticed he was breathing just in the same way as when I went to bed, but I did not disturb him considering him asleep. I observed a bottle lying on the table, there was a small quantity of liquid in it, the same bottle was in the possession of Mr Eames.
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Many thanks for your interest, but I already have that inquest report. I took out a subscription to the online British Library Newspaper Archive last year: the best investment I ever made in Family History research! I constantly return to the search for James GILL and all incidents involving the Defiance coach, as more editions of West Country newspapers are added to the website and corrections made to the OCR transcriptions.
As my ancestors include Ag-labs, bargemen, gamekeepers and police, in addition to the coachman, many made appearances in the news countrywide for both good and ill! My favourite is the 'silly-looking youth' who tried, unsuccessfully, to steal a duck in Somerset but ended up before the magistrates where he 'landed' a fine of 2s 6d. and costs!
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dee-jay,
I was Googling 'Thomas Page Gill' today and found your site. Four years since the last posting!
I thought you might be interested in this item from our cemetery: -
https://findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=gill&GSiman=1&GScid=2536046&GRid=181808150&
Do you have the graves of his parents?
Do you anything to connect this Thomas Page Gill with the man of the same name who came to New Zealand and was in the army here?
Terry Montgomery
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Hi Terry
Thanks for your interest.
James, father to Thomas Page GILL, was buried at Yarcombe, Devon in January 1844, followed by infant son John in May 1844. I found no trace of their graves in the churchyard but they are recorded in the Yarcombe Burials PR.
James' widow Elizabeth [nee PAGE] remarried in 1853 to Joseph EVERY and after his death in 1883 she resided with her married children from the 2nd marriage: 1891 with Charlotte J. HILL in Chard and subsequently James John EVERY, Postmaster at Buckland St Mary, where she died and was buried in 1896. There is a Somerset MI for the couple but I have not visited the grave at BSM.
The Howick RC Church copy marriage certificate 13 Mar 1910 of Thomas Page GILL, widower, 71 to Ellen McINERNEY, widow, 70 confirms his identity as the son born Exeter, England, to James GILL, Coachman, and Elizabeth [nee PAGE]. His death certificate confirms his occupation Military Pensioner.
dee-jay
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Thomas Page Gill baptism transcribed as Thomas Pye Gale!
Devon Baptisms Transcription
First name(s) Thomas Pye [s/be Thomas Page!]
Last name Gale [s/be Gill!]
Birth year 1838
Baptism year 1838
Denomination Anglican
County Devon
Baptism place Exeter, St Sidwell [correct]
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth [correct]
Father's first name(s) James [correct]
Archive South West Heritage Trust
Birth date 09 May 1838
Father's occupation Coachman [correct]
Residence Paris Street
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That’s brilliant, Ian! Thank you so much for tying up that loose end. The parish was the one I anticipated but the paid researcher I employed failed to find it some years ago.
There does appear a discrepancy in the date of birth as his birth certificate states 30 March 1838.
I need to dig into my files as, if memory serves me correct, I had to get the details checked by the local Registrar as the reproduction copy ‘lifted’ from the GRO original was difficult to read in parts.
Once again, many thanks.
dee-jay
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You're welcome.. glad to see you're still at it - we exchanged a few emails some years back regarding Deanes/Charles Holland Hastings/James Davidson etc. My research activity is still patchy though..
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Hello Ian
I would be interested in your interest in Charles Holland Hastings. I think yours is the son of Francis, son of my 4xgreat grandfather Lt-Col Sir Charles Holland Hastings KCH. I have quite a lot of info about Sir CHH but perhaps you already have much the same.
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Hi, Charles HH is a bit of a sideline in my Family History, married one of my ancestor's daughters, divorced his first(?) wife, I have records of the divorce, but have not followed up CHH in any detail yet.
Dee-jay on this thread has much info on CHH, I hope she'll respond.
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Ian, I do indeed but I've not touched ground since 2005 on this 'twig', although I suspected CHH was not the 'Bachelor' Explorer that he claimed at 1905 marriage to young Alice, daughter of John DEANE, Gamekeeper to the GIFFARDs of Chillington Hall! So far as I am aware there were no issue to this couple and he left his fortune to the lady who nursed him to the end, Alice having predeceased him.
I would be interested to receive feedback on his divorce. In the meantime I'll dig out my old files.
dee-jay
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Thanks Ian and Dee-jay for your responses - he is also a sideline for me as his father was son of my 4xgreat grandfather by his second wife. So my interest has mainly been for clues to paternal ancestry as I have been trying to find parents for CHH senior for many many years. He is one of those mysterious ones with plenty of rumours of being the illegitimate son of an earl. CHH junior was (as far as I know) the third of that name CHH senior having at least one other child named CHH who died young. The Holland name was carried through a good number of descendants which must be significant. CHH junior does seem to be a very shady character - army, navy, air force, "explorer" etc etc as well as bankrupt, divorce. I already have the divorce stuff for Clara Dolman the first wife. Well, if I can provide anything else let me know. Thanks
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CHH junior does seem to be a very shady character - army, navy, air force, "explorer" etc etc as well as bankrupt, divorce.
Downcraig, there was absolutely nothing about him 'shady': proceedings for bankruptcy instigated 1904 whilst he was abroad recruiting African natives to bring a village to UK for the Bradford Exhibition. The adjudication was Annulled and Receiving Order Rescinded Oct 27 1905, it appearing that all the debts had been paid in full.
He subsequently successfully pursued his share of the profits in a Civil Action HASTINGS v BAMBERGER [Dispute as to an African Exhibition] reported in The Times Thursday 5th December 1907 pg9, Issue 38508, col D, so he was justified in describing himself 'Explorer'. I'm now aware that many of both sexes reverted to their single status after divorce, probably to enable a second marriage in church? CHH was honest about his age, unlike his first bride, and he certainly engaged in yachting and motorboat racing pursuits, after his military career!
I'll send you a PM with my email address if you'd like to reciprocate off-site with details of CHH/Carla divorce and I can then send you my research as attachments.
dee-jay
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Dee-jay, that “date of birth” for Thomas was probably a mistranscription for “date of baptism”.
I have been corresponding with Ian, and he has found a possible alternate baptism for James Gill, son of John and Isabella, at St Sidwell, Exeter, in Oct 1810! Have you seen it and ruled it out?
I emailed you a couple of days ago about our DNA project, but the email bounced. Could you try emailing me, please?
jeanffrench
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Are you a member of Devon Family History Society? high quality images of St Sidwell parish registers are available in the members' area of the Society's website, as are 51 other parishes.
The Gale/Gill baptism is there- Exeter St.Sidwell: 3429A-PR-1-5_0276. The Pye/Page entry in the transcription could be either but the surname is definitely given as GALE.
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Dee-jay, that “date of birth” for Thomas was probably a mistranscription for “date of baptism”.
I have been corresponding with Ian, and he has found a possible alternate baptism for James Gill, son of John and Isabella, at St Sidwell, Exeter, in Oct 1810! Have you seen it and ruled it out?
I emailed you a couple of days ago about our DNA project, but the email bounced. Could you try emailing me, please?
jeanffrench
Responses:
(1) I had already reached that conclusion. ;)
(2) I discounted the John/Isabella suggestion many moons ago, after finding all the links with Yarcombe and Defiance coaching activities plus the Uncle James CRABB of Northleigh mentioned in the 1818 Settlement Examination taken at Yarcombe of young James GILL, and Churchstanton employment with Robert OSBORNE until he went out of business. More recently I found a likely baptism - 20 Apr 1834 at Axminster - son of James GILL, Post Boy, & Elizabeth for the James GILL aged 7 months buried 14 Sep 1834 at Colyton - Elizabeth's birthplace. The only missing link is a Settlement Examination for Elizabeth GILL after James' untimely death in 1844.
According to Hanson a common route for progression from saddle to coach bench was stable boy/horse-keeper/post boy/coachman.
(3) I'll PM my current email address.
dee-jay
P.S. I joined Devon FHS this year for the purpose of seeing all their parish register images. ;D.
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James GILL bap 1810 St Sidwells:
IGI record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JSJB-3ZY
I have a few reasons for suspecting the James GILL St Sidwells bap 1810 is more of a possibility than Yarcombe in 1805:
AGE:
[Burial record] burial Jan 1844 age 35 puts bir/bap around 1809. Possibly our best guide to birth date?
[1841 census Ilminster] age 25 allowing for rounding down puts age 25-29, so bir 1812-1816
[1841 census Ilminster] had a 9 year old son at this time; so James maybe closer to the upper end of the 25-29 age possibility?
LOCATIONS:
[Bap. William GILL 1832 8 Apr 1832] James first son was bap. Colyton, one week after parent's marriage. I take this as more of an indication of mother's home; James & Elizabeth were not married at the time; seems natural for unwedded Elizabeth to give birth at home with mother in Colyton.
[Marr. James GILL & Elizabeth PAGE 1 Apr 1832 Colyton] as marriages are more likely to take place in the bride's parish, again I see this as more of an indication of Elizabeth's home - Colyton.
[Bap. 2nd child Eliza GILL 22 Nov 1835, Saint Sidwells, Exeter] Father James is a Postboy; abode St. Sidwells, Exeter. Why baptise here if they lived elsewhere?
[Bap. 3rd child Thomas Page GILL 9 May 1838 St Sidwell, Exeter] Father James is Coachman of Paris Street Exeter. Again why baptise here if they lived elsewhere?
[Bap. Mary Ann Gill 1840 Ilminster] this and 1841 census suggests to me that the family moved to Ilminster area between 1838 & 1840.
Burial at Yarcombe I think just represents where James and family had settled, not necessarily his birthplace.
[The Taunton Courier of 31 January 1844] ‘for many years driver of the Defiance coach, on the Ilminster Road’
My thinking is that James started his working life as a young man in Exeter/St Sidwells; ( 2 children baptised there); later became a coachman; was assigned the Ilminster 'stage' of the Exeter-London coach route, & moved with his family to Ilminster, to drive this stretch.
Of course none of this can be seen as proof, but a St Sidwells boy was a little more likely to get involved in the coaching trade.
. . . . .
Further reading (interesting, but proves nothing apart from St Sidwells being a hub for the coaching business):
From: http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Exeter/CoachinginExeterCossins.htm
"James Cossins who was born in Exeter in 1823, had a tobacconist shop at 36 Paris Street, Exeter ... seems to have been on familiar terms with all the key people in his parish of St. Sidwel, especially the coaching fraternity." ...
"It was computed that in the parish of St Sidwell alone, 3000 persons derived their maintenance in connection with the above occupations."
[Surely 3000 is a transcription/OCR error? I'd believe 300!?]
. . . . .
Dorothy: I see some differences in our data: as above, I think I have 2 St Sidwells baps for children of James GILL & Elizabeth, you previously posted 'James had issue baptised at Colyton, Ilminster and Membury'. Is this the crux of the matter?
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Ian, I see nothing new in your listed data that I, and several of my very experienced correspondents, have skipped over the past 29 years' co-operation. We have kept an open mind in the hope that, one day, we will encounter definitive proof of 'our'James GILL's origins. ::)
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OK, thanks. You agree two baps (Eliza and Thomas Page) to James GILL and Elizabeth in St Sidwells then?
I too am keeping an open mind; do you have any clues for me as to why you 'discounted the John/Isabella suggestion many moons ago' ?
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OK, thanks. You agree two baps (Eliza and Thomas Page) to James GILL and Elizabeth in St Sidwells then?
I too am keeping an open mind; do you have any clues for me as to why you 'discounted the John/Isabella suggestion many moons ago' ?
Responses:
(1) Yes: Early in my personal research I paid an Exeter researcher to extract Eliza's PR baptism and I asked the Exeter Registrar to complete blanks in my extracts to show illegible parts on Thomas Page GILL's GRO birth cert.
(2) The naming pattern of John/Isabella's issue was not replicated in those of James/Elizabeth. If James' mother was Isabella I would have expected her to be commemorated but if Lydia I could understand if they chose not to! Thomas Page GILL commemorated Elizabeth's father, named on her second marriage certificate to Joseph EVERY, and her son from the 2nd marriage was named James John, which I believe commemorated her two infant mortalities in her first marriage.
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dee-jay:
OK, thanks again, I now understand some of the reasoning. But the 5-year age difference in the two James GILL's births worries me, and like you I will need definitive proof before I'm able to fall one way or the other on the John/Isabella or James/Elizabeth parentage question. So for the time being I'll have to be content with remaining 'stuck' at coachman James GILL.
I'm not sure if you intended it, but I found your previous reply #19 brusque and condescending; as if your 'time on the job' with 'several of your very experienced correspondents' entitled you to dismiss the efforts of others. I have been researching 'on and off' for 31 years - but I would never use that fact to suggest that my research skills are in any way superior to others. You will recall thanking me back in reply #8 for posting bap. details of Thomas Page GILL, which I was happy to post openly and selflessly. Every little helps - surely friendly co-operation is to be encouraged.
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Profuse apologies, Ian. I was ravenous for food, having neglected both breakfast and lunch to delve into boxes that haven't seen the light of day for ages. I'm now about to sort out dinner so please excuse this brief response, I assure you no slight intended. If memory serves me correct, I kept you 'in the loop' on the DAVIDSON research for years.
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Ian
Now that I've had time to delve into the huge volume of my accumulated GILL paperwork, I found in 1995 I extracted all the IGI baptisms for Exeter St Sidwell 1809-1820 and Exeter St Peter Cathedral 1822-1833 attributed to John GILL/Isabella, and employed a local researcher to extract PR details.
I subsequently found the marriage by banns 1835 of James GILL/Elizabeth SNELL solemnized in the Parish of Precinct of the Close at Exeter City and, if you check the 1851 Census ref: HO 107 1538 folio 318 page 41 at Shoreditch, you will discover widowed James GILL 40, Labourer in the Docks, born Exeter, his children Isabella 16, Ann Maria 9 and John 4, and, significantly, his unmarried sister Ann 23 born Exeter Cathedral Close.
My maternal Grandfather, who died when my Mother was 3, lied about his age at marriage to a younger bride, adopted a first Christian name with which he was neither registered nor baptized and kept up the pretence until his untimely death in 1908. You may recall all the anomalies with which James DAVIDSON plagued our research similarly, so you should understand why I take 'our' James GILL's claims in the 1841 Census with 'a pinch of salt'. ::)
dee-jay
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Thank you very much for the detailed and very compelling explanation.
I guess I'm only left with the question of why James Gill had two children baptised St Sidwells - unless the couple lived there earlier in their marriage - or his wife Elizabeth was living St Sidwells (with Gill relatives?) while James was 'on the road'..
Thanks again..
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Dear Ian T and Downcraig, I'm interested in Sir Charles Holland Hastings who is my 3 x Great grandfather. Having disentangled him for the other contemporary Sir Charles Hastings I'm now stuck as to CHH's parentage. All help gratefully received
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Hi Alex
Sadly after about 40 years of searching I am no closer to finding out who Sir Chas' parents were. I'm still hoping for a break through somewhere ...
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Sadness, thanks for the quick reply, I will plough on elsewhere and report back if I have any joy
Alex
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Alex, I'm afraid I don't have any info on Sir Charles Holland Hastings. Although a descendant of his appears in an offshoot of my family history, I have not researched this side. Your best hope will be for dee-jay to chime in on this, as I know she has done extensive research in this area.
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Dear Downcraig I'm back on Charles Holland Hastings again, apologies if the following is too much detail
Lichfield, St Chad parish records show he was married to Mary Gardiner in the presence of Harriet Gardiner on 19th September 1808.
Charles Holland Hastings and Mary Gardiner then have children baptised in Edinburgh and the parish records show Mary Gardner as "daughter of the late General Gardner"
I also have in Old Calton Burial Ground in Edinburgh "...and of their father Sir Charles Holland Hastings who died February 2nd 1849 and of their mother Mary, Lady Hastings who died 8th January 1861"
Finally Debretts (1828) has children of William Gardiner as ...4. Frances, b 24 May 1783, m 1808 Charles-Holland Hastings, lieut-col. in the army, and 5. Mary, b 11 Aug. 1786
So, apologies for all the preamble I think Debretts is wrong and Charles Holland Hastings married Mary daughter of General William Neville Gardiner and Harriet Wrottesley. Can you shed any light on this?
Hope so and thanks if you can
Alex
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I enjoyed the following newspaper reports immensely:
Kilkenny Moderator - Saturday 18 February 1888 page 4
Continuation from page 3 column headed
THE MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT
FOR THE COUNTY, CITY AND BOROUGH
OF KILKENNY
Lieut-General WILLIAM GARDINER (Thomastown, 1800-1801), was second son of the Right Hon. Charles Gardiner, M.P. for Tagmon [sic], 1741- 61, by Florinda, only daughter of Robert Norman, of Lagore, county Meath, and was grandson of the Right Hon. Luke Gardiner, M.P. for Thomastown 1727-55. He was born 23rd Oct., 1743. He was Colonel of the 60th Foot, and Governor of the Fort of Kingsale [sic]. ln 1791 he was appointed Minister Plenipotentiary at Brussels and at Warsaw in 1793. He had also been commander in chief of the forces in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. He died 7th Feb., 1806, having married in 1779, Harriet, Maid of Honour to the Queen, 5th daughter of the Rev. Sir Richard Wrottesaly [sic], 7th Bart.„ of Wrottesaly [sic], Stafford, by Lady Mary Gower, eldest daughter of John, 1st Earl Gower, and sister of Granville, 1st Marquis of Stafford, K.G., by her, who died 4th December, 1833, he had one son and four daughters. (1) Charles, born 19th November, 1780, Major 60th Foot, died unmarried. (1) Gertrude Florinda, married, 1st 19th Sep. 1796, Charles John Clarke, of Hitchin Priory, Herts. 2ndly, 8th August, 1803, Hon. Charles Tollemache (died 28th July, 1830), of Harrington, Northampton; (2) Harriet, married, 6th April, 1805, Robert Patrick, M.D., of Tearne [sic] House, Ayr ; (3) Francis [sic], married, 1808, Lieut.-Col. Charles Holland Hastings. (4) Mary.
Variant spellings:
Taghmon
Kinsale
Wrottesley
Trearne
Frances
Star (London) - Thursday 22 September 1808
On Monday last, at Litchfield [sic], Charles Holland Hastings, Esq. Major of the 63d Regiment, to Mary, youngest daughter of the late Lieutenant-General Gardiner, Commander of the Forces in Nova Scotia.
dee-jay
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Many thanks dee-jay
Alex