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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Brutus on Sunday 27 May 07 02:01 BST (UK)
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Does anybody have a loose end of this name, who disappeared in the early 1800's ???
The Story James Sidebottom was born c. 1789, baptised 19-12-1790, St Thomas Ardwick, then a village on the outskirts of Manchester. Got into trouble!!! Tried 4-5-1806, acquitted, tried 25-4-1809, re-tried 11-10-1809 apparently same offence, sentenced to 7 years in Oz. Expensive barrister employed - got him that time! Transported, escaped late 1811 & got back to England, (rare event), caught again in Leicester, used alias of John Smith, (escaping was a hanging offence), & sentenced to another 7 years in Oz. Transported again, pinched something in Sydney, sentenced to the Newcastle Penal settlement. There he appears to have decided third time proves it, & if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Became Chief Constable, confessed his misdeeds to Gov. MacQuarie & was pardoned 19-8-1819. Became disgustingly rich, married, but unfortunately when he died he left it all to his sons, & one of his daughters, my ancestor, got only a 20 pound annuity.
---One of the curious factors is that he appears to have been very well educated, unusual in the late 1700's. Built a large house, almost a mansion, named Courtland Place, so the name must have meant something to him.
---The IGI shows some names in the Manchester area who could be relatives, but I have no definite connection.
---A relative of mine searched for court documents while in England, the Lancashire archives found a few fragmentary references, as above, but the main documents for that period have been lost.
Any suggestions as to where I might find more information would be welcome, and if anybody has a lost g-x-g-uncle that would be marvellous.
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Hi Brutus,
I can't help you with James life prior to him getting into trouble but I can tell you that my children are descendants of John Smith alias James Sidebottom. John Smith had one child a lot later than the other children, his son was Alfred Sydney Smith and he was born 10 years after the next youngest child. Alfred Sydney Smith was a bit of a wild child and was also disinherited when John Smith died. An interesting thing to do given John Smiths career.
I have mostly family accounts to thank for news of Alfred being disinherited so I will need to confirm that for sure. However, I am happy to help you with any information I have. It seems you may well have more than I do though.
Cheers
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Thank you for replying, it's nice to know somebody is interested in the fascinating James Sidebottom, alias John Smith, saga. I have found twelve children for "John Smith" and Mary in total, two died shortly after birth, and Alfred Sydney is certainly the last of the surviving ten. However, the twelve are almost equally spaced, most at the usual 2 year, +/- a little bit spacing, which was so common in those days.
I don't know much about Alfred Sydney, I have not closely investigated him, as I am descended from Sophia, the eldest daughter and second child. I have found births/ baptisms of ten children listed for Alfred, of which three died in infancy, but that's all I know about him. Does this agree with your findings??
I do have a paper copy of "John Smith's" will, which might reveal something more about Alfred. I can't remember all the details, I was more interested in Sophia's small share, a annuity of 20 pounds. However, I recently tidied up a lot of my FH stuff, and I haven't a clue where it is at the moment!! If you are interested I'll try to dig it out and scan it.
Regards, Brutus.
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Baptism: 19 Dec 1790 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
James Sidebottom - Son of Jams. Sidebottom & Elizh.
Abode: Manchester
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Burial: 31 Dec 1815 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
James Sidebotham -
Age: 25 years
seems strange - the age fits perfectly ...I wonder if John Smith really was a James Sidebotham / Sidebottom - or did he steal the identity in the first place ??
bit of a coincidence to have a Baptism and Death that fit perfectly age wise in a little village like Ardwick as it was in 1790's ..... you may dismiss this death - but in your shoes I would be curious even more now about John Smith / James Sidebottoms that went to Oz real birth name ... :)
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as James and Elizabeth were James parents in late 1700's in Ardwick I would suggest this is a possible sibling list for James bap 1790
Burial: 19 Dec 1785 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Sidebottom - Daughter of James Sidebottom & Elizabeth
Age: 2 yrs.
Abode: Manchester
Cause of Death: S.p
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Baptism: 26 Feb 1786 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Sarah Sidebottom - Daughter of James Sidebottom & Elizh.
Born: 30 Jan 1786
Abode: Manchester
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Baptism: 14 Sep 1788 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Alice Sidebottom - Daughter of James Sidebottom & Elizh.
Abode: Manchester
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Baptism: 4 Aug 1793 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Saml. Sidebottom - Son of Jas. Sidebottom & Elizth.
Abode: Manr.
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Burial: 4 Mar 1795 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Mary Sidebottham - Daughter of James Sidebottham & Betty
Age: 13 years ....so wasn't baptised in St Thomas - no record shows
Abode: Manr.
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Burial: 7 Apr 1795 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Saml. Sidebottham - Son of James Sidebottham & Elizth.
Age: 1 year 9 mon
Abode: Manchr.
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Baptism: 12 Jul 1795 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Robert Sidebottham - Son of James Sidebottham & Betty
Abode: Manchr.
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Baptism: 10 Dec 1797 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Sidebotham - Daughter of James Sidebotham & Eliz.
Abode: Manchr.
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that looks to be all records at St Thomas ,Ardwick ......looks to me like they didn' t live in Ardwick because abode each time says Manchester .....and as Mary who died aged 13 in 1795 was born in 1782 - she is not baptised in Ardwick St Thomas church - so I would suggest the family were not local to Ardwick in 1782 ........ :)
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/cgi-bin/mkindx.cgi?parish=Manchester&type=District&community=Ardwick
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Hi Brutus,
I don't have all of the children. I have 10 children in total and only 9 of those to John Smith, one of them is by Mary with her first husband. So I would love to do an information swap with you. I also do not have a copy of the Will from John Smith and yes would absolutely love a scanned copy if it if you are happy to share.
I agree that there is likely to be something a bit odd with the parents in the first place. Where did you get the birth location? My side of the family hasn't got anything so specific and in fact we have a birth date origin of a couple of years. It sounds like you have much more precise information than I do.
However, the family stories that come down to my children and to me do talk about James being a member of a rather prominent family in Manchester. They also say that he got his education and some money from them. They believe that he was a younger son of the family who "went bad" and that if he needed it, when he was in Australia he was able to get help from the family in the UK, at least initially.
Given where he ended up and how easily he was able to rise in Australian Society I would expect that his education was certainly quite reasonable. He certainly had extremely good hand writing etc. So while I certainly wonder about his origins I am not sure that the original details about his origins and his link to the family is incorrect. It certainly fits very well with the family stories. But maybe once I have more information I may come to be more of your mind.
Cheers,
Tina
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Hiya Tina
James was in fact the oldest Brother - he had Samuel and Robert as younger brothers
see my last post
only my opinion - but I am very curious about James Sidebottom bap dec 1790 at St Thomas ,Ardwick
....it looks to me like he was buried 1815 aged 25 in St Thomas churchyard ...
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Yes, I can see why your list gives you James as the eldest but I still don't have as much information as you do. I need more to see why you have come to the conclusions that you have. For example, I have James born about 1789. I also have nothing specific about where he is born other than 'Greater Manchester'. You obviously have more information that leads you to believe that Ardwick is the place and that there are other siblings. Help me to understand your reasoning for this so that I can also understand your concerns. This family is not one I have done a lot of research into and only looked at what I have for him today for the first time in about 10 years when I was last working on this family. At that time I had found two other potential sets of parents for James Sidebottom based on the information that I actually had at the time. Those sets of parents were; 29 Oct 1786 to Samuel and Martha Sidebottom nee Morgan married at the Manchester Cathedral 26 Feb 1786 and one christened 26 Nov 1786 to Joseph and Betty Sidebottom nee Chadwick marriage 21 Oct 1784. Both of which are a couple of years out on the projected date but not impossible.
So what lead you to the conclusion Ardwick? Can I get copies of that information somewhere? If not can you send me to links that will help me understand your conclusions?
I have one set of records for James Sidebottom's convictions, not the quite extensive up and down that you have. Are you able to point me in the right direction for those as well. That way I can read them, make sure I have that information and make sure that I have any other facts that I seem to be missing.
Do you have an online tree somewhere that I can see with details of John Smith? Mine is at http://gransdenfamily.com/ with James Sidebottom very specifically at http://www.gransdenfamily.com/gransdenf/pafg119.htm#3667 do a search for John or Smith and you should find him, there are a few on that page.
Cheers,
Tina
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Hiya Tina - I am only going on the info on the first post by Brutus who states James was baptised in dec 1790 at St Thomas ,Ardwick - I the went to the St Thomas ,Ardwick, Lancashire Online Parish site which then gave me the info ....I am not connected in any way - just thought you and Brutus should see the probable siblings records at St Thomas church :)
a very interesting man - but a shady character to say the least ....
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The baptism may well be speculation - there are other possibilities as Garstonite and Tina pointed out earlier.
Brutus, do you have any details of the earlier trials- places etc?
Whilst searching I found this http://gransdenfamily.com/gransdenf/pafg119.htm which has little concrete evidence of place of birth etc.
Regards
Heywood
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There are some brief reports in newspapers - no personal detail.
1806 offence - 'stealing apparel from a dwelling house' where he was sentenced to death according to court book and report in Lancaster paper August 1806.
There was a mention of 'mercy' so presumably that was given!
Summer 1809 he was acquitted of Burglary.
October 1809 - Larceny - transportation for 7 yrs
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Ah, OK that makes sense.
Indeed Gentleman Smith is a very shady character. So far I don't have confirmation of the birth place.
However, I do now have a bunch more information. See attachment as putting it into the message is too large.
I have included the link where I found that information at the end.
The Australian Newspaper Index Trove is coming back online over the next couple of days as well and I have found another bunch of Newspaper articles that I will have a look at over the next couple of days to see if there are any options in any of that stuff.
Thanks everyone for looking further. I am really pleased to see how well this search is going and how willing people are to help out.
Tina
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I also found this which gives some rather interesting and colourful information about John Smith.
http://www.jenwilletts.com/john_smith.htm
Tina
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Thanks, Garstonite for pointing out the discrepancy in the birth/death of that James. It looks like it must be another. It's seven years since I made the original post, and about twenty seven or more years since I did much research in that quarter. Back then, one did ones research by peering at microfiches in council libraries, or at indexes at the archives reading room in the Sydney CBD (now moved to western Sydney), and copies of anything were done by Xerox. Also by writing letters to the State Archives, enclosing a cheque, and popping the letter into those red boxes which used to be on street corners. Computers ran an operating system called CPM, Wordstar was the only word-processor worth talking about, and the internet was dial-up.
However, as to whether his name was James Sidebottom at all, I remain reasonably sure that it was, so he must be another. Unfortunately, there are quite a few. The correspondance with Governor Macquarie is fairly definite, and it would have been a very dangerous game to try to delude Him, and get a pardon under false pretences. You would need to like the feel of a rope around your neck to try that on.
On the subject of his character, an attitude of John Smith bashing seems to have developed in recent years, mostly coming from some authors at the Newcastle Uni, and distributed by the Maitland Council Information service. What is obvious is that there was considerable jealousy from members of the "establishment", most of whom were not doing as well as Smith was. A number of recent publications completely ignore the fact that he was also guilty of philanthropy!!! There exists a public letter from several of his tenants thanking him for remission of a quarter's rent, after a flood. There are numerous cases where he had a hand in improving the quality of roads, or farming practices. A correspondent of mine, a descendant of James, his eldest son, informed me that on one occasion, when some relative of their's was bankrupt and all his possessions were being sold off, John Smith bought up the property at a bargin basement price, then when the man had made a recovery some years later, sold it back to him at the price he had given at the bankruptcy sale. Then there is the very substantial assistance he gave to Caroline Chisholm.
Any view on his "crimes" should also consider the social structure which existed in the early 1800's, all the 1700's and earlier. The members of the "establishment", called the "quality" by the great unwashed, could commit murder and get away with it, at worst a hurried departure to the Continent and few years exile was sufficient. This is well illustrated by the complete failure of the attempt by some to bring the captain of the "Hell Ship" the 'Neptune' to justice. Conversely, the theft of a scrap of cloth by one of the common herd was sufficient for a death sentence. Conversely in another direction, it was entirely possible to committ a social solecism of such magnitude that the offender was cast into the outer darkness, particularly if the offended person was in high places.
Tina, I will contact you via the private message system when I have scanned the Will' It's 10 or more pages, and very complicated. It may be a few days before I get to it as we are rather busy at present.
Heywood, thank you for your interest. I think I have everything which has survived regarding the earlier trials. An academic cousin of mine, who hangs out at Oxford, was pushed by her mother into doing an extensive search. She sent me a number of newspaper reports, and the prosecutor's bills, but was told by Lancaster archives that the documents of the actual court proceedings had been stored in a cellar during WWII to protect them from German bombers, and the cellar had been flooded, and the contents pulped. Unfortunately, that is just the material which could have told us the crucial details about our James Sidebottom.
Regards, Brutus
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Hi Brutus,
thank you. My Mother in Law actually had a copy of the Will. I thought she did and I asked her for it years ago and things happened so I didn't get it. So I now have a copy of the Will and need to spend some time reading it. As you say it is very long and complicated.
I would be really interested in getting the other information that you have though. I will be going through the information that my Mother in Law gave me the other day and seeing if I can find anything further of use to either of us. Unfortunately I don't think that she has much more on the Smith family. She is searching for some information but the majority of the information that she did have was stolen. It was in her aunts house in a fashionable suitcase and someone broke in and stole the whole suitcase with all of the information in it. It seems that the world is conspiring to help James hide his origins.
The letter that you mention, I also have a photocopy of. Some of the works are illegible in the photocopy. Do you have a better copy? Or more full and correct details.
I think that John Smith or (Gentleman Smith) as he was known, bashing may have occurred at the time just as much as it does now. I came across a piece in the news paper the other day which had one person running for the position of Alderman. In it he was running on a platform that was aimed at getting 'John Smith' to be treated the same as any other man and to have to pay the same proportion of rates as other men, for the amount of property they owned. This man did not get enough votes to become an Alderman. So I suspect that John Smith was a bit of a character and did both good things and bad things during his life. What a surprise, that makes him just like anyone else and also makes him much more interesting to research because it means that he has much more depth of character.
Thanks again, looking forward to hearing more from you. My original research into my own family, was also initially started in the days before computers and word processors and by writing to family members and individuals. So I understand where you are coming from.
Tina
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Hi Tina,
Sorry to take so long. Glad you have got a copy of the Will.
I have a transcript of the letter done by somebody else, (with another interesting bit on the same page). I also looked the letter up on Trove, (Maitland Mercury), and did a screen grab and then ran it through my image processor, the result is fairly legible, and might be better than the copy you have.
Will contact you by the PM system, and give you my email address, it might be easier to exchange information that way.
Brutus
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hi my name is Felicia smith i have been doing my family history and it shows that I am a relation of James side bottom or john smith as he now called and would like copy's of any documents and photos of him and his family and I don't want any of the documents going to people who are not related to him with respect please you can email me on (*) thanks
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Hi Felicia,
Glad to hear from another descendant of Sidebottom, alias Smith. How are you connected? That is, from which of his numerous children, etc.
To the best of my knowledge, no photos of him exist, and though photography was invented before he died, box-brownie cameras certainly weren't. There is, however, a copious paper trail, some of it readily accessible via the NSW Archives.
If you make two more posts, we can correspond privately by the personal message (PM) system.
Regards, "Brutus".
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John smith as I know him by is a descendant of my late grandfather Keith William smith as I am still trying to put it into place all I know is when he was transported to Sydney nsw he married a woman by the name of Mary Brian/furber after johns wife passed he remarried Mary in Sydney at parramatta then he went on to become chief countable in Sydney then he was transferd to Newcastle where he is now buried in an Anglican cemetery at the cathedral but unfortunately he is buried under neath the there
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Hi Felicia,
You have some of the names right, but it's a bit different and more complicated. Easy to put right from memory, if I still have one!!!
A female convict named Elizabeth Dean (or Deane) was transported on the (in)famous "Lady Juliana", and a convict named Anthony Bryan (or Brion or Brian) on the "Surprise", both arrived Oz circa 1790. That is what is nominally called the "second fleet", except it wasn't a fleet. They got together somehow, and had a child Mary, and 3 more. (That I know of).
Their daughter Mary Bryan married a William Phillip Furber, who arrived on the 'hell ship' "Neptune". The marriage was at a very young age. They had 1 child, George Furber. Then Furber died, and Mary Furber, nee Bryan, married John Sidebotham, who was calling himself John Smith by then, at Paramatta. As far as I know John Smith didn't have a previous wife, and certainly no legit children.
Then he got into more trouble, and was transported to Newcastle, the penal colony for the penal colony. Once there, he impressed the commandant, Morisset, and was made Chief Constable. (He seems to have decided at that point that "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Much follows from there.
About his death. I'm not entirely sure of the final details, but he was buried in what was then the Cathedral Cemetery. Then, some years later, the old Cathedral burned down. An ignorant or corrupt administration, before the existing much larger cathedral was built, 'bulldozed' the whole place. (Or whatever they did in those days, probably a team of draught-horses with a scoop). The headstones were all dumped somewhere, and there was something in recent media about them being recovered and re-erected somewhere, but I haven't kept up with that.
Regards, "Brutus"