RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Wednesday 30 May 07 10:25 BST (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
In the first week in July I shall be on holiday with my family just north of Cork City, and naturally I am hoping that during that time I may be allowed to escape to the archives/libraries of this place. Could anyone with local knowledge or someone who has recently visited Cork give me the lowdown on what might be available.
I'm hoping to find traces of an ancestor Francis NOTT, cabinet maker of Cork City in one of those early directories at 27, Duncan Street. Also perhaps of his son John, b. circa 1805 and who was involved in early photographs by the daguerrotype (spelling?) method.
Have already pursued questions here on another thread re these two, but I'm just wanting to know where I could myself a nice dusty old record repository/museum/library where I could while away a few contented hours with my nose in a document, directory, old newspaper, you know the kind of experience I mean...
Very best wishes,
keith
NB Does Duncan Street still contain buildings from the early 19thC?
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Hi Keith
Irish research can be a little more difficult sometimes as the earliest surviving census records is for 1901. The 1911 has also been released.(All previous censuses were destroyed in a fire.)
Not alphabetical-you have to know which county you are searching.Each county is then divided into baronies,townlands.poor law unions and parishes.The 1901 is supposed to be going on line(free)starting later this year.
Civil registration for births,marriages and deaths began in 1864-except for Church of Ireland marriages which go back to 1845 - before that you have to try parish records.
I went to Cork city for a few hours when visiting my family a few miles away.
Cork city library is within walking distance from the main shopping/bus station/parking area.
The library holds the 1911 census for county Cork. I think they also have old street and trade directories plus maps and copies of old newspapers and old photographs.
The local studies dept is upstairs and they were very helpful when I went last year.
I'm sure they would be able to direct you to certain areas or streets-they gave me a map of the streets when I went. Some of the old churches are still there too.
Their e-mail address is on the link(I've e-mailed them with enquiries and they do reply ).
There's also Cork county library which holds the 1901 census.
It' a lovely city with lots of character - I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/
http://www.library.ie/public/corkco.shtml
Hope this helps
Regards
Neptune
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Neptune,
This is all a huge help to me, thank you so much. I think I'll spend quite a bit of time in that Library. Plus I'm looking forward to seeing Cork for itself - the City as well as the County...
keith
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Hi again Keith
I hope you found the links useful.
My ancestors were from Paul Street in Cork and we were able to wander around there last year.All the small shops were still there so you might be lucky.
St Pauls church where they were married was also there(in Paul Street)but the builders were there turning it (the church)into some sort of shopping centre!!One of the builders let me inside the barrier to take some photos before it changed forever.
There were some headstones in the corner which he said were being kept but I never got to have a look. Such a shame-so I would advise you to take photos if you find anything!!
I've attached a few links-one is a map so you could see if Duncan Street is still there. Also a few directories that are on line.
In Slater's Directory you relative John Nott is mentioned- (p201 +p 210 alphabetical then under cabinet makers).
I know your ancestors were born before 1864(civil registration but 1845 for Church of Ireland marriages only)but if you need any later certificates the registrar is in Adelaide St in the city.If you click on the link and select 'fees'
you should see the addresses.
The coach station is literally next to the shops if you don't wasn to drive in and all the old streets are around there too. The library is about 5-10 minutes walk away.
Hope you are able to find something.
http://myhome.ispdr.net.au/~mgrogan/cork/cork_city_pigot_merch.htm
http://www.failteromhat.com/slaterm.htm
http://www.failteromhat.com/guy1914.php
http://www.corkkerry.ie/upload/documents/CORK_Guide.pdf
http://www.groireland.ie/
Regards
Neptune
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Neptune,
Wow! More lovely links and advice that should help me from just blundering into Cork City and not knowing where to start and where to go.
Interesting with that John NOTT at 57, Duncan Street in 1846. I don't think it's a very common name in Ireland (though I could well be wrong), but if that is indeed my man, it was his expertise as an innovator/engineer/inventor that made his name. In the 1851 London his occupation is "Inventor", or "Maestro of Telegraphy", depending on which Rootschatter deciphered which entry index. He also married in London in 1846...
Also, the previous Cork City entry for his father Francis, cabinet maker gave an address as 27, not 57 - but I've often myself come across addresses on microfilmed entries with the first digit mysteriously at odds with another entry, supposedly for the same family.
Anyway, I'm thinking aloud here, the real point is that you've opened up a whole area of new places to look when I get to the library in Cork in a few short weeks.
Thanks again,
keith
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Neptune, just saw your post from June. It is a terrible shame that the Paul St Church is more or less disappearing. It was, to my knowledge, known as 'The Sailor's Church' and many seamen were interred there. I have a book with some info, but can't lay my hands on it right now, but will do!
Keith- how did you get on in Cork?
Ceallachain
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Ceallachain,
Had a lovely time near Cork, with the highlight being a Christie Moore concert in the City on the last night. However, though they couldn't have been more helpful in the library itself - where I was able to read a great deal of new material about Daniel O'CONNELL and his descendants (another line of family enquiry!), when I went upstairs to the Local Studies Centre I must have been unlucky as the woman in charge of the desk at the time seem rather disinterested and I made no sort of progress whatsoever with any kind of old reference to Duncan Street.
But I did convince myself that the street does not exist today...
keith
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Keith,
Do you have any info on whereabouts the street was originally- what part of the city?
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Hi Ceallachain -
Yes - it's a pity about the church. I have been to Cork city a few times before- when staying with my family a few miles away. If only I had known about St Paul's (I only recently found out my ancestors were married there) I could have maybe gone inside or at least had a look at the graveyard.
I did manage to take some photos as the builder man was very nice and let me inside the six foot barriers so at least I could see it. The headstones were still there but had all been placed against a wall - the man said they were to be kept.
It was lovely to walk along Paul Street which is the address of both of my gggrandparents on their marriage certificate(no number so I didn't know exactly where they lived.)
It's interesting you think St Pauls might have been known as the Sailor's church.I'll bear it in mind although as far as I know the family had a business-they were ironmongers . I think my gggrandfather Edward Eames might have worked for the family but I'm not certain.
However his son did join the navy.
Also a relative Sir William Eames from Cork -(possibly a cousin) was in the navy too and became chief engineerat Chatham dockyard -his sons also joined the navy.
They (Eames)were Church of Ireland but I believe his wife -my gggrandmother was Catholic as were her children so I don't think they were baptised in St Paul's but a nearby Catholic church.
Thanks again for the info about the church.
Keith - glad you enjoyed Cork .
Regards
Neptune
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Intersting post. Thanks.
Yes- just checked- It was called 'The sailors' Church'. It was built in 1723 specifically to provide religious services for the many sailors passing through Cork. According to the excellent Kieran McCarthy's book 'Discover Cork', "In the grounds of the church there is a large number of sailors' graves because one mayor of the city, Edward Brocklesby, granted free burial here to foreign sailors...the stuccowork on the ceiling is reputed to be the work of Italian prisoners of war who were captured during the Napoleonic Wars. There is an accomplished stained-glass window depicting the Last Supper. In the vestry are the old wooden stocks once used to hold criminals while a crowd pelted them with rotten fruit." (p. 35)
Neptune- if you can- I would love to see some of those photos!
Ceallachain
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Hi again-
How interesting - such a shame to lose all that history-thanks for letting me know. It would have been lovely to see.
I'll dig out the photos - even though it looks like a building site!! but at least I have something.
I will let you know when I find the photos ..
Many thanks again
Neptune
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I'm shocked to hear that Mallow Heritage Centre hasn't been mentioned...That's where all the records are held for Cork mostly :)
http://www.mallowheritagecentre.com/
Mallow is really easy to get to via train from Cork City :) - you can also get a bus from the bus station :)
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I'm shocked to hear that Mallow Heritage Centre hasn't been mentioned...That's where all the records are held for Cork mostly :)
Keith may be shocked too - when he sees the exhorbitant fees they charge! ::)
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I'm shocked to hear that Mallow Heritage Centre hasn't been mentioned...That's where all the records are held for Cork mostly :)
Keith may be shocked too - when he sees the exhorbitant fees they charge! ::)
If you're going to pay for a researcher maybe, I believe you can do personal research for free.
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Scottcharles,
I've just had another look at the site. Nothing is free. There is no mention of 'personal research'.
The very cheapest form of enquiry - say a baptism lookup costs 40 Euros or about £26 in Sterling. Compared with England, that seems a touch expensive to me.
Leofric
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Scottcharles,
I've just had another look at the site. Nothing is free. There is no mention of 'personal research'.
The very cheapest form of enquiry - say a baptism lookup costs 40 Euros or about £26 in Sterling. Compared with England, that seems a touch expensive to me.
Leofric
I'm only going by what my partner has said and she's from Mallow originally, but it would be worth calling or emailing to check I guess.
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Are there no RootsChatters in Cork City or County Cork ??? If there aren't I'll do my best to make contact with Cork people on another site of which I'm a member ... I'll try to make friends with thirty two Irish people on that site ... one for each county. Nothing beats having a local contact. One for each Irish town might be pusing it though.
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I'm a Corkman, but not there at the mo! However, I do go there quite often. I know the City very well, the County reasonably well.
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My recent use of the Mallow Heritage Centre was most satisfactory. On 5 July 2007 I airmailed from New Zealand for a Baptism search. I was then aware that my grandfather had an elder sister.
On 18 July I received the results from MHC and found that my grandfather was the youngest of 10 children born to John Kepple and Catherine Riordan whose Baptism records were found in the Newmarket Parish.
The MHC searched 46 parishes of the Diocese of Clyone to locate that information. The information provided was date, name of child; parents; and witnesses.
I certainly gained a wealth of new information which more than justified the fees paid.
Kiskeam
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I'm also awaiting a "general search" for my Fitzgerald girls from the Mallow Centre, these girls were from Co.Cork!!! And although having a small heart tremor at the prices (about $65.00 Australian dollars), I'm at least hoping it will eliminate some parishes.
But.....I've been waiting since 11 July......, so I'm hoping that something may turn up soon!. But with a name like Fitzgerald....and from somewhere in Co.Cork, I can certainly work out why it's taken some time.
Webby
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Information on Nott or Knoot Family in Cork.
NOTT OR KNOTT, Elias, Cabinet Maker and Upholsterer, 27 Duncan-street, Cork 1827-1829 (in partnership with Francis II and John Nott 1825-1829).
NOTT OR KNOTT I, Francis, Cabinet Maker, Duncan-street, Cork 1798-1805. Nott had a number of marriages 1) In the Diocese of Cork and Ross, Country Cork of Francis Nott to Elizabeth Thornburgh in 1783 ( Marriages; Diocese of Cork and Ross, Country Cork); 2) Mr Francis Nott, Cabinet Maker of Grattan-street to Mrs O’Keefe relict of the late Denis O’Keefe Esq of Kilcrea (HC, 24th November 1794). Cabinet Maker. Such working Cabinet Maker as are disposed to attend regularly to their business, will meet proper encouragement, and contestant employment by applying at the ware-rooms of LeGrand and Crosbie, Samuel Cox, T Shirkwin, and F Nott where good workmen shall receive one guinea per week and upwards according to merit, and London prices for all defined articles in the Cabinet line. Young lads of good connections will be taken as apprentices, on moderate terms. Cork July 10th (CA CR 1804, July 12th). Death yesterday morning in Grattan-street, Mr Francis Nott, Cabinet Maker (CMC 2nd January 1805). Notts last will and treatment read as follows: Nott, Francis, Ducan-street, City of Cork, Cabinet Maker. 23rd Sept 1807. Full 29th May 1809. My property of which I shall die possessed including my present holding in Duncan-street to be put up for sale by my exors. and after the demands of my children have been met the residue to be divided as to one third part of my wife Mary Nott and the two thirds to my children in equal shares, Mr Milward to oversee the distribution to my children by my former marriage and Mr Uppington to my present wife. Exors. Mr Henry Milward and Henry Uppington. Witnesses: Mary Purcell, widow, Jane Allen, spinster and Marsden Haddock, gent., all of the city of Cork (Registry of Deeds Dublin Abstract of Wills Vol III 1785-1832 (237).
NOTT OR KNOTT II, Francis, Cabinet Maker and Upholsterer, 27 Duncan-street, Cork 1810-1829 (in partnership with John Nott and Elias Nott 1825-1829).
NOTT OR KNOTT, James, Joiner, Dublin 1734-1761. Freeman of the City of Dublin as a Joiner by Service, Michaelmas 1734. Knott voted in the Poll for electing two members to represent The City of Dublin in April 1761; Dr Charles Lucas and Col Dunn (NLI Ms P349).
NOTT OR KNOTT, John, Cabinet Maker, 27 Duncan-street, Cork 1825-1829 (in partnership with Francis Nott II and Elias Nott 1825-1829). 57 Duncan-street 1837-1846.
NOTT OR KNOTT, Thomas, Cabinet Maker, 35 Nicholas-street, Cork 1855-1856. Mr. Nott, a Cabinet Maker, of Cork was the first person who invented the electric telegram- Cork reporter (BN-L,1857, 31st July).
NOTTS AND CO, Cabinet Makers and Upholsterers, Duncan-Street, Cork 1810-1823.
John Rogers
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Hi Keith,
Francis Nott's grandfather was probably James Nott, Joiner would worked in Dublin from 1730-1761. I believe James Nott's father apprenticed his son to a good Dublin Cabinet Make/Joiner in the early 1720 (a seven to nine year apprentice followed). Dublin was the center of furniture trade in Ireland for all of the eighteen and nineteenth century re innovation. Sometime in the mid eighteenth century the Nott's moved back to Cork, maybe James Nott son? What we know for sure is that Francis Nott was running a Cabinet Making business in Cork in the early 1790s and he had three sons sons John, Francis II, and Elias (all I think by different mothers) and died in 1805. Francis Will for 1807 tell us that the business was split four way between the three children and his wife Mary, who controlled the largest share. Mary and Francis (was born early 1780) probably ran the business for the first few years under the name Nott and Co 1810-1823). It was only in the early to mid 1820's that Elias and Francis II joined the firm, at this juncture Cork entered a sever financial depression. This financial calamity lasted for a good part of the 1820's and into the early 1830s, because agricultural prices the mainstay of the Cork economy were very depressed. The origins of this problem go back to the end of the Napoleonic War 1815-1816, because of the Cork economy over reliance of supplying the Royal Navy and Army.
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John,
Hadn't realised that you had initially posted on this thread before PM-ing me. A tremendous amount of new material about the NOTT family, and many thanks for all your help...
keith
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Hello Keith
I'm coming to this conversation late but I hope it is nevertheless of some interest.
A discussion popped up recently on Twitter about John NOTT's Daguerreotype in Cork and, in particular, the possible location of the shot. I suspect that chat reveals little that you don't already know, but it may shade in more detail about the family, their business background etc. I'm passing on the link as, when Googling Mr Nott, your posts came up, and it seemed only right to return the compliment. See the replies to this tweet -
https://twitter.com/bigmonsterlove/status/1047993421909118977 (https://twitter.com/bigmonsterlove/status/1047993421909118977)
The replies aren't a linear timeline but it's all there including a few pics and maps. To summarise...
- The street in the Daguerreotype appears to be Duncan Street.
- Sadly, it has since been almost entirely demolished - except possibly a tiny fragment, the low wall which is visible in Nott's picture.
- No-one seems to have established the street numbering yet, so I can't confirm that Nott's premises is in it. (And while, yes, the 27/57 is likely to be an error, I wouldn't rule out the various family members owning a few addresses on that street).
- The name of the street had been changed from Grattan Street to Duncan Street and was subsequently changed back again.
I'm delighted you have found such an interesting ancestor, and if you've put together more of his story I'd be very glad to read it. Please feel free to DM if you want my Twitter handle etc.
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Hi, McCulkey Coughlan, and welcome to Rootschat,
Thanks so much for putting that fascinating exchange about John Nott on Twitter my way.
I don't know whether you've managed to come across one or two other threads I started on here (again, awhile ago now) to try and discover more about this man.
His genes do not actually run through me or my immediate family, for it was his grandson John Fortune Nott who became my great-grandmother's first husband after she had given birth, illegitimately, to my maternal grandmother.
However, his story is quite remarkable, not least the fact that he and his wife set off to Australia in the 1850's - apparently there was a gold rush going on - leaving behind their two quite small sons who were at boarding school at Uppingham. Never returned or were reunited with them, as far as I can ascertain. Maybe he'd become bankrupt, but certainly a strange career move. And I've been contacted by descendants of his other children in Australia.
Thanks again for colouring in more of his story for me,
Keith
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Ah - I did get the gist from your previous threads all right, but managed to overlook the direct descendant aspect. Apologies.
I hope you can pass that Twitter link to the descendants who have been in touch. I imagine they will enjoy the evidence of a strong possibility that it's his home/business they're looking at in his photo.
Finally, it only struck me late today that it may not be obvious I am using a nom de plume here. It's merely a play on the way "COUGHLAN" is usually pronounced in Cork (CAW-LIN) by referring to a Spoonerism of actor Macaulay Culkin. I certainly didn't want to mislead anyone re names on a genealogy site!
If you, the Australian family, or anyone, wants to know my real ID, that is no problem via DM if/when I can access that facility.
Best regards til then.
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Right, McCulkey Coughlan,
Shall address you in this way one final time before I link up with you via PM (Personal Message) on this site. (Shades of T.S.Eliot and the names of some of his Practical Cats, perhaps). I presume DM infers Direct Message to you?
Will contact the Australian family descended from John Nott, as I'm sure they'll be very interested in all aspects of this. Was a while ago since we were exchanging e-mails, though...
Regards, Keith