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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: chinakay on Saturday 16 June 07 02:06 BST (UK)
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Here's an unrestored photo of the family, and in my opinion it was taken before they left Wales. I have been to the village in Patagonia and it doesn't look much like this...I think that is Moel Siabod in the background. What does anyone else think?
Cheers,
China
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Hi China
It certainly could be around Dolwyddelan but it is hard to tell.
I notice that you have an interest in Williams's from Dolwyddelan and do you mind letting me have some details as I have family from the area. The furthest I have traced is Griffith Williams born 1786 and died 1873.
I will dig out some photos to see if I can compare.
Peter
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Hi Peter, well, given that every second person in Dolwyddelan is named Williams it's not likely there's a connection, but I'll be glad to try :D
In the photo is Moses Williams, born 1863 in Dolwyddelan, married to Catherine Jane Jones in 1887 at Llanrwst (dist.), and died in Patagonia in 1918.
Son of Robert Williams, born 1831/32 in Llanrwst (dist.), married to Judith abt 1860, died 1905 in Llanrwst (dist.).
I do not have proof positive of Robert's parentage, but I do have an original marriage certificate of Moses and Catherine Jane. Robert Williams signed as a witness (the "original" is not the actual, signed, certificate but a clerk's copy) and the name on the signature line is actually Robert Robert Williams. So I believe his father must have been Robert also, but have no details. There was a Robert Williams born 1796 in Dolwyddelan according to the IGI, son of William Griffith and Ann.
That's about all I've got for you. Oh, and the Moses Williams family lived at Ty Capel.
Cheers,
China
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Just one or two Williams's but you never know!
Certainly if there is a connection it goes back a while. Do you have Robert and Judith's wedding in December 1/4 1859 . She appears to be an Ellis. If so you should have Robert's father. The only possible in IGI was born 1830 and if I have the correct family I have them living in Beudebach(?) Dolwyddelan. Father Robert and mother Gwen. Robert senior is a farmer and is said to be 40 which does not quite tie in with born 1796 although of course ages were to the 5 below. If you have the wedding cert you will have an address. The coincidence is that the next family lived in Penrhiw which on the 1841 is the next property. The father is William Williams aged 52. Whilst I have not tied the latter family into my tree my family were living in Penrhiw in 1851. That family in 1851 have as head Robert Williams but he was born in 1812 and his parents appear to be Griffith and Elinor.
I hope you can follow my ramblings but I would be interested to know your Robert senior's occupation and the address if uou have them.
As far as the photo is concerned then I will attach three but it is impossible to be certain.
Peter
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one appeared to get lost and hopefully here it is
Peter
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Hi Peter, what a fabulous pic of Moel Siabod, much better than anything I could find on the net. It is most certainly Moel Siabod in my photo, and taken from a very similar spot, right down to the two little "bumps" on the left! Hoorah :D
The Williamses, very interesting. I was writing my last post according to information on the sheet of paper on top of my heap, and just now dug a little deeper...Judeth is Ellis, yes, but I only got that info from the IGI and censuses. Still, Judith or Judeth is an unusual name, and my grandmother's sister's name was Judith. She was always called Dwd. Interestingly, she is not in this photo...I wonder why.
So, are Robert/Judith among your bunch, or were you just playing with the IGI?
Cheers for now,
China
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Hi China
Thanks for that. The photograph was taken as you will probably know on the southern side of Dolwyddelan and the former family farm Penrhiw is situated between there and the village some 2 miles off the main road. I did visit the farm a few years ago as there is in fact a Mr Gwynedd Williams living there (or was) but his family appeared a few years after mine left although there of course could be a connection.
I was just playing with IGI to find the marriage and without the marriage certificate it is difficult for us to check any further but I will bear you in mind should I find out any more.
Best wishes
Peter
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Okay Peter, I have just ordered the Williams/Ellis cert... we'll see in 10 days or so...
Cheers,
C
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I look forward to hearing from you.
Incidentally the Williams's family are my mother's mother's family and Griffith Williams would be my 3xgreat-grandfather.
Peter
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Hello Peter, the cert arrived today, the wedding of Robert Williams and Judith Ellis at Dolwyddelan church 17 Dec 1859. Robert's address is Penrhiw and his father is also Robert Williams, farmer.
Over to you :D
Cheers,
China
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Well that is a surprise.
Robert certainly did not live in Penrhiw in 1841 or 1851. In 1841 he was with the family I mentioned before. Do you have access to the census? I will let you have details if not. Basically father Robert and mother Gwen and there is a sibling Moses. If you are searching it is under William and not Williams. I cannot find the parents yet in 1851* but Robert senior has died by 1861. Gwen appears still in 1881. There is a possible for Robert Junior in 1851.
Do you mind scanning the certificate in to see if I can glean anything else.
Now either the families are connected further back or Robert Junior went to work at Penrhiw when his father died.
* now found under Gwen Jones(?) widowed with children surname Williams- still no Robert Junior.
to be continued.....
Peter
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Some questions, answers from anybody, I'm not proud ;D
Where is Penrhiw in Dolwyddelan, and what does Rhiw mean? I'm assuming it's the name of a house...
I notice Robert Williams has a son Moses in the 1841, and on the same page William Williams has a son Rowland. How common were these names in Wales at the time? I'm particularly interested in the name Rowland.
Cheers,
China
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Okay, in answer to my own question, there were 193 Rowlands in Caernarvonshire in the 1841 census, so I suppose it wasn't an entirely uncommon name. 77 Moses(es).
The reason I was interested in William William's Rowland is that one of the children (pictured at top of page) who emigrated to Patagonia named a son Rowland. I have noticed that names tend to go around in families, so I wondered if there was a connection.
I was dreaming last night that the Williamses were descended from Macsen Wledig. No idea where that came from, and as I frequently remind my husband, I am not responsible for the content of my dreams. ;D
Cheers,
C
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I think Penrhiw means top of the hill-- pen = head and rhiw = hill.
It is a few miles outside of Dolwyddellan not far from a railway station called Roman Bridge.
It is a farm and when you PM with the certificate I will send a photo of the farm.
I think all this family history is giving you delusions!! Perhaps it is the railway station.
Mind you we all have dreams.
Peter
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Penrhiw is a farm in Dolwyddelan, and I believe the Williams family still farm it.
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Hello, thanks for that. I see there is an RG Williams listed for Penrhiw farm...I wonder why I don't remember my aunties taking us there. Or maybe they did...I wasn't a sentient human being yet the last I was there :P :)
Cheers,
China
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haha. i know that feeling! yes, I knew him as Gwyn Penrhiw - he was a batchelor and a farmer, who lived there with his mother. She died, and I'm certain that he still lives ad farms there. I'll see what I can find out for you. p
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Hi
I do not think it is the same family as mine but I would still be interested in hearing what you find out in case it helps.
Peter
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Hi Peter. Please remind me of who you're looking for, and I will have a look . p
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I remember a Gwyn Williams but he was an engineer? at the water? thing...something about a dam?
Speaking of dam...dam, but I wish I'd paid more attention.... :P :P :P
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Oh never mind...that was Glyn Williams. My bad :P :)
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Hi Paul
My Williams family appears to have left Dolwyddelan after 1901. My gg grandmother Margaret died at Penrhiw in 1900 (her husband Robert having died 1878). A son William Robert (my great grandfather) moved sometime after the 1901 census to the Wrexham area. The only Williams in the property in 1911 is another William aged 23 and described as a servant.
I visited the farm several years ago and spoke to Gwynedd Williams but he does not seem to be a relative.
The Robert Williams above only seems to have gone to the farm between 1841 and 1851 as although born there in 1812 the family was in Festiniog in 1841.
Quite honestly although I have bmd certificates and them in censuses I am still not 100% sure of my earlier facts. There are so many similar names.
Anything of relevance would be gratefully received.
Peter
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Hi China and Peter. Hope you're both well. Long time! How the years fly by! I have managed to unravel the Penrhiw families, and happy to share my findings with you by e-mail first, and then if you agree, I'd be happy to repost it here too. If you'd be so kind as to mail me paulpesda@hotmail.co.uk and then I can reply. Thank you. P
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I've already posted a message on a similar thread, but basically I have information about the family at Beudy Bach in the late 1830s- mentions Robert Williams (son of Gwern Gof, from Capel Curig) m. Gwen Jones. He was killed in a quarry in ?Patagonia. She came from Penrhiw. There is mention of Moses and other children.
Also have details of people living at 3 properties described as Penrhiw: Penybryn, Penrhiw; Ty Ucha, Penrhiw; Penrhiw.
Happy to share all the details if any of you send me a PM.
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Hi Bryn
I have seen your posts and would welcome more information. China and myself both have Williams families from Dolwyddelan and we both have from Penrhiw. As mention in a previous post there may well be a Festiniog connection for me as well. China's family and mine are very probably connected but I do not like to take anything for granted. The Williams families in Penrhiw have many similar names. There was also a Jones family at the same time.
A possible scenario is that Griffith W born 1786 and who died in Penrhiw in 1873 was the son of
William Griffith. No doubt China will these emails and give her input.
Please let me know if you require any census references.
Thanks for your interest.
Peter
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Noswaith dda!
The information I have is in the form of a booklet, and is a private census of all the houses in Dolwyddelan between 1838 and 1842, and lists not only the occupants, but also their ancestors, in-laws (and where they came from) and descendants! It then becomes so much easier to find official records!
Before I was given a copy of this, I had spent years trying to track my Taid's father's family, and one look at "Ffridd" and I realised I had been looking for Davies, when it was listed as "Dafydd", and later elsewhere as "Dafis" and again as "Davys"!! It also told me that the son, Owen, married his cousin Mary - and that explained resemblances on a couple of family photos! Marriage Certs and official census's don't always give an inclining of anything like that!
The sections for B. Bach and Penrhiw take up 3/4 of a page of A4 typing, and I just don't have the time to type it all out, but I am very happy to scan the relevant bits and email them to you, if you will send me a PM with your email address. Likewise for any other addresses which interest you!
Regards,
BM
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Helo Bryn Meurig, o le daeth y cyfrifiad annibynnol am Dolwyddelan? Sut allwn i gael copi? Fy ebost idi paulpesda@hotmail.co.uk
diolch