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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: Carmela on Thursday 21 June 07 09:29 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I am trying to help an elderly friend. This woman's father was born in Nottingham Prison , June 30th, 1885.
I have a copy of the birth cert. which states:
Name: William Arthur Stanley
Mother: Ellen Stanley, domestic servant
Signature,description, residence of informant:
Ellen Stanley Mother, HM Prison Nottingham
William Arthur Stanley emigrated to Canada in the early 1900s. He married and had a family, but never told his children anything about his origin, other than that he had been born in England and came to Canada alone, when he still in his teens.
His daughter found his birth certificate after his death and was utterly shocked to learn that her father had been born in prison. She has never stopped wondering
what crime her grandmother committed . She imagines that it must have something really serious. I would love to be able to tell her that it was just some petty offence.
I have started trying to trace the family but, my main concern at the moment is to find court records or anything that might tell us what this poor girl did to end up in prison.
I know nothing beyond what is on the birth cert.
Since William was born at the end of June 1885 and I
assume Ellen was already pregnant when she entered
prison, then the trial would have taken place no earlier than early Oct. 1884.
I found an Ellen Stanley in the 1881 census, who just might be the right one. she was working as a servant in a small boarding school in Standard Hill Nottingham.
Of course with a common name like Stanley, I might be wrong, but she was the only servant and a suitable age.
I have looked for information online and as far as I can
see, prison records and court records would be in the
Nottingham Archives. Since I live in Canada, this presents a bit of a problem.
Is there a kind soul out there who lives in Nottingham and would be willing to help? Any ideas or advice would
be appreciated.
Feel free to send me a PM if you have any questions.
Regards,
Carmela
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I suppose it is possible she was working at the prison rather than an inmate, but probably unlikely.
The Record office for Nottingham hopefully may have prison records, if any have survived, or will point you to whoever does have them.
If you cannot find anyone who is able to visit the Nott'm archives for you, then I suggest you contact them yourself, either via email, or with a good old fashioned letter.
Before genealogy 'took off' online in recent years, with some info becoming available online, that was the only way to find out anything ! It is easy to forget now, and fall into the trap that if info is not 'online' then it is not there at all.
All the best - hope you do find some prison records
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Hello Carmela,
At the moment the only thing I can tell you is the baptism;
WILLIAM ARTHUR STANLEY, mother ELLEN STANLEY – 20th December 1885, at Nottingham Holy Trinity.
So I can only assume she was out of prison by this time.
I hope someone else may come up with some ideas to help.
Regards
Sheila.
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It's right that the Petty and Quarter Sessions records will be held at Nottingham Archives - but the records of the Nottingham Assizes (trials for more serious offences) are held at The National Archives, Kew.
Local newspapers are likely to have reported many of these matters (small and large) and will be both at Nottingham and at the British Library Newspaper section in Colindale.
All of which are a long way from Canada - hope someone will be able to help you :)
Anna
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Hi Carmela & Liz,
Just a note regarding Nottingham Archives at one time they would do a specific search for free or tell you if they held the records you wanted but a few weeks ago I asked if they held a particular Will, they did give me an answer this time but this was attached to the email;
On 13 February 2007 Nottinghamshire Archives launched its new Research Service.
This new service offers full research into the whole range of documents and records held at Nottinghamshire Archives.
Full details of the service, with information on fees and charges, are on our website www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/archivesenquiries.
The service has replaced all short, specific searches undertaken by staff free of charge.
Our list of independent record agents is still available, and researchers are of course welcome to make a personal visit to Nottinghamshire Archives.
From what I gather the cost is £20 an hour
Sheila.
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Genealogy is not a cheap hobby!!
I hope Carmela finds someone who is going who can look for her (sorry not my part of the country). If not that they find it quickly and it doesnt take hours of searching at £20 per hour!
(Cheaper than an air fare from Canada though!!)
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Interesting that on baptism their abode was given as Southwell House.
A quick google turns up a Southwell House girls home in Nottingham, for which Notts Archives hold the records from 1886...it's just possible there might be something there.
If it was a girls home they were in, it could be that Ellen was quite young and may have been home with parents in 1881?
Do you have William on either the 1891 or 1901 census?
Heather
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Thanks to Everybody for the advice.
Oh dear, the news about the cost of searches of the archives is very depressing. William's daughter could not afford it.
Heather: The girls home is an interesting find. I will try another search of census records as I am not sure what I did the other day, but I think I left age blank to pull in all Ellen Stanleys.
I could not find William(or Ellen) in either the 1891 or the 1901 census.
Still hoping someone will volunteer to help.
Regards,
Carmela
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i think the key to this one is going to be to find Ellen and Willaim in 1891 and 1901. That may give us more info on Ellen (like date and place of birth) so we will know if the one in 1881 at the school is her or not.
It still wont tell us why she was in prison - or indeed if she was in prison as an inmate or working there, I note the school in 1881 is at Nottingham Castle - perhaps she always worked for that kind of establishment!
But - as yet I can find nothing for them in 1891 or 1901 index (not got full access)
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I agree that finding Ellen and William in the 1891 and 1901 censuses would help in tracing Ellen's family. I'll have another try at it the next time I go to the library.
The library has a sub. to Ancestry, I don't have it at home.
I suppose it is possible that Ellen married and appears under another name. William might also be listed under the husband's name. Also, William may have left for Canada before 1901. I have not found anyone who might be him in passenger lists from 1901 or earlier, but they are not complete and there are a lot of Stanleys.
Another thought I had about William, was that he might have ended up in a "home" of some kind and been sent to Canada as a "home child". Have not looked into that yet. If that was the case, then he might not be with Ellen in 1891, but in some institution.
The search continues.
Carmela
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Yes - the 'home' idea is a possible. I know lots of Dr Barnados children went to Canada. It is possible to track them - I dont know how though- someone on Rootschat might be able to advise or there may be a thread on it already - worth a search. If not Barnados are sure to have a website that might point you in the right direction.
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???
Would it be possible to trace him on the Ships Passenger Lists when he first travelled to Canada?
Tracing relatives of mine the lists showed details of family/address back in England.
Knellie :-\
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Hi Knellie,
Thanks for taking an interest in this problem. I'll reply to
the PM seperately, but for the benefit of others who may be following this thread, I'll update my progress or lack of progress.
I have found a William A. Stanley entering Canada in 1901, age 15, member of a party of Dr. Barnardo's children, some of which were sent on to the province where William is known to have settled. Further investigation of this group of Dr. B. children, revealed that they came from London. I don't know how Dr. B.'s children were put together for shipment to Canada. Perhaps children were taken from various homes and assembled as a group in London or where these only London children ?
Anyway, regardless of how he got there, William was
in Canada and living alone by the time of the 1911 Census. I am able to identify him with certainty because he was living very near the family of his future daughter's inlaws. Only one problem which suggests that he was not the Dr.B. boy; in 1911 he gives 1905 as date of entry into Canada. This might be a mistake but if true, then he was not the "home child" and it is "back to the passenger lists". I have not found any that give an address back in England, usually just port of departure and Canadian census records just give country of origin with no details.
I have still not had time to do another search of 1891 and 1901 UK census records at the library. Will try to do that this week.
Carmela
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Hi everyone,
Sticking my nose in here because I have had a fair amount of dealings with British Home children to Canada. :) :) :) :)
First, I looked at William A. Stanley's entry on the Canadian Archives Home children site and it says that he sailed from England on March 21st 1901. The British census was taken on the night of March 31st. 1901 so he would have missed that one. But, the Canadian census was also taken on March 31st 1901 and sure enough William A. Stanley is with
the Robert Magee family in Nepean, Carleton, Ontario. He is listed as " hired help" and there are 2 other English boys in the household. I bet they are Barnardos boys too although I haven't looked yet.
Here is the 1901 census:
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/Nation.jsp
It looks as though William was most certainly a Barnardo's child and Barnardo's have been very good about releasing records to the next of kin....although I understand it may take several months to rec'v the packet.
Your friend can email them at their address and ask for instructions:
makingconnections@barnardos.org.uk
Dr. Barnardo's after care page:
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/what_we_do/work_with_former_barnardos_children.htm
Also, it might be worth joining the British Home Children mailing list (I am a member) as we are all committed to help each other find our BHC relatives and learn about their background.
I have looked for William on the UK 1891 but no luck yet.
I hope this is helpful
Indi
Proud cousin of 7 British Home Children from Birmingham.
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Hello Carmela
A William Stanley immigrating to Canda in 1905 is found in the National Library of Canada Home Children database. He is part of a party of 142 children from the Middlemore's Childrens Immigration Homes, Birmingham, England, to the Lower Provinces of Canada, through Halifax. Ship is the S.S. Siberian with departure 20 June 1905 Liverpool, arrival Halifax 1 July 1905. He was 11.
You can view the passenger list at : http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/passenger/001045-119.01-e.php?&sisn_id_nbr=11210&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=11dl15vpi8mhgpvp6o5aq9bhu1
William is found on page 3 of the shipping list:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/passenger/001045-119.02-e.php?&sisn_id_nbr=11210&page_sequence_nbr=1&interval=20&&page_id_nbr=113827&&&PHPSESSID=11dl15vpi8mhgpvp6o5aq9bhu1
Linda
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Carmela
If this is your friend's William the National Archive's of Canada has this Finding Aid for Middlemore Children's Immigration Homes Records
http://data2.archives.ca/pdf/pdf001/p000000592.pdf
Further details of the files:
http://mikan3.archives.ca/pam/public_mikan/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=107020&rec_nbr_list=107020,1927225,1984172,1944577,1944341
Contact info for the Archives: http://www.collectionscanada.ca/contact/index-e.html
Linda
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Indi,
You are welcome to stick your nose in. :) :) :) I can use all the help I can get on this one. Your expertise on British home children is really useful. I'll certainly follow up on the Barnardo links. If they are really sticky about releasing info only to next-of-kin, I may have a bit of a problem. My friend is not a computer person, but perhaps we could get around that with an old-fashioned letter. I wonder how much information there would be about William's mother in the Barnardo's records? It is still his mother and her stint in prison that is the major point of interest.
I am almost certain that the 1901 arrival in Canada is the right William Stanley, but I am a bit puzzled as how he could have made it from Liverpool to Ontario in 10 days.
I checked the 1911 census for Carleton/Nepean and there was no William Stanley, so he could well have moved on to the Prairies by then (where I found him).
Thank you very much for finding him in 1901. Don't know how I missed that. On second thought, perhaps I do know, I was really stupid :-[ and assumed that he would be where he eventually settled. I know better,
it was very silly of me. It was a good thing that you found him, I might have forgotten to re-check that census.
Thanks again and you can stick your nose into my problems anytime.
Cheers,
Carmela
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Linda,
Thank you for finding the 1905 William Stanley, but I am afraid that he is not thge right one as his age is too far out. I realize that ages can changed for various reasons,
but the image was quite clear and it did say 11. I think that is too far from 15 for any deliberate change.
I appreciate the time and effort that you put into looking
and if I ever reject the other William, I may reconsider this one.
Cheers,
Carmela
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Carmela:
I am not sure if it is possible that William would have ended up in Kent in 1891 but I did find a William Arthur Stanley on the 1891 England Census who is of the right age , he is listed as a boarder and one of the other two young boarders can also be found as a British Home Child of Dr. Barnardos. The birth place of all three young boarders is recorded at N.K., which I assume means not known.
I was at the very end of a three day trial on Ancestry.com when I found this and before I was finished my time was up so I am going to have to type this from my notes which might be difficult ;D
1891 Census:
#34 Chapel Cottages, Sandhurst, Kent
Saxby James married age 57 General Carpenter
Saxby Ann married age 55
Saxby Sydney C. single grandson 11
Stanley, William Arthur single boarder 5
Blackett, John single boarder 5
Austen, Edward single boarder 5
Could this possibly be the right young man? John Blackett (above) ended up in Oxford North, Ontario in the James Heeny household.
Hope it has some relevance...doesn't really tell you anything even if it is the right boy.
dollylee
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Hi Carmela,
Re the Barnardo's records. I do think that they are quite strict about releasing records to next of kin only. However, I think that if you sent them an email, they will tell you were your friend could write for details.
I have seen differing reports on what the Barnardo's records might contain. Some have a great deal of info re the child's parents and siblings (if any) including the circumstances leading up to the child's placement in the home. Many records include a photograph. But some people have been disappointed to find only a couple of pages of vague information.
My British Home Children relatives were from the Middlemore Home in Birmingham and the records contained many details of the sad story of the children and their parents - both of whom died.
Re the entry that dollylee has found. I actually think that all three of those boys were Barnardos children. I found Edward Austin (Austen) aged 11 sailing to Canada in 1898.
How three little boys - from parts unknown - ended up with the Saxby family....well, one can only speculate.....but I would bet money that they are all orphans.
Re Liverpool to Ontario in 10 days is about the right amount of time for that journey. It was 5/6 days on the ship and the rest by train.
Regards
Indi
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Hello Carmela and Indi
From personal experience, Barnardos would not release documents to myself or sister, the great grandchildren. It had to be next of kin, my dad - his grandson. They did have my great grandfather's records; however, at 50 pounds (approx $100 Cdn), he a pensioner and not knowing what he would get, he would not pursue it further. This was a request early last year. Their small fee has gone the way of supply and demand.
Linda
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Hello Everyone,
Well, it looks like that was our William living with the Saxbys in 1891. The full name William Arthur helps to convince me that this is the right boy. Thanks Dollylee. So sad to think of him having been moved to Kent. I am beginning to think that when he was baptised at 6 months of age, he had just been taken away from his mother. He probably never saw her again. No wonder he could not tell his children anything about his family.
Indi, I had no idea that the old steamships of the early 1900s were fast enough to cross the Atlantic in 5 or 6 days. A journey of less than 10 days ties in nicely with the census records.
Linda, thanks for telling me about the cost of obtaining
records from Dr. B.'s. With no guarantee of what they may contain, I think the decision in this case will be the same as that of your grandfather. The decision is not mine to make, so I'll gather and relay the information
on how to contact the Dr.B people.
Cheers,
Carmela
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Hi All,
I am trying to help an elderly friend. This woman's father was born in Nottingham Prison , June 30th, 1885.
I have a copy of the birth cert. which states:
Name: William Arthur Stanley
Mother: Ellen Stanley, domestic servant
Signature,description, residence of informant:
Ellen Stanley Mother, HM Prison Nottingham
Regards,
Carmela
After recent visit to Nottingham Archive I have found no evidence of Ellen!!!! in Nottingham Prison...but tried hard to find references for where prison actually was - the card index was empty!? :-\ :(
The Southwell House (which appears to have been opened on the site of the Old Gaol) records had no reference to her - very interesting document though. List of names at given at the back of each Log Book and then a page of notes as to character, reason they were there, some newspaper cuttings and letters if the girls moved to a better life.
References held for Nottingham Assizes seemed to refer just to male prisoners - looked around 1884/1885 - it was very interesting to see information held, so an interesting exercise anyway. There were also Police Photographs records - mainly male. Also reference to 'Galleries of Justice' now a tourist venue, which may be worth making enquiries at time permitting. ???
So sorry or possibly confirmation she was some type of Domestic but National Archive may have more records.
Noticed Baptism reference will try to take a closer look at some point.
A fascinating quest!
Best wishes Knellie
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Hi Knellie,
Thank you so much for trying. What you did was really
"above and beyond". At least we can be fairly sure that
she was not sent up for some really serious crime.
Somehow, it still seems a little odd that she would have given birth to a baby in the prison, if she was employed
there as a domestic. I really can't see prison authorities
allowing that to happen. Surely she would have lost her job and probably ended up giving birth in the workhouse.
Well, I guess it's back to the drawing board. I shall give it some more thought and try to see if there is any other approach.
Thanks again,
Carmela
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Hi Carmela
It's interesting to see what info. is out there. There may be other resources to check ::).
Knellie
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Hi again,
I just realised that you did not mention the Petty Sessions or Quarter Sessions records. This is not a criticism of your good work, just wondering if there is anything left to check.
Cheers,
Carmela
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Definitely yes there are both at Archive or Local Studies Library - e.g. newspapers possibly. It was just unfortunate that there was only the marker card for prisons. :-\
Actually the Quarter Sessions I checked were the ones for Nottm. for:-
Midsummer1884/Michaelmas/Epiphany/Easter/Midsummer 1885.
References C/QSP/2/84 - 88
There must be something somewhere for women as notes for those at Southwell House suggest they were taken there from the Assizes. ??? ???
This is a new area to me and I'm interested in exploring new sets of documents - and how they relate to each other, I might even find some relatives :o.
Best wishes
Knellie
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Hi Knellie,
Now I understand what you did. You checked the same time frame as I would have done given Ellen's pregnancy and the date of William's birth. This is turning out to be a much greater puzzle than I anticipated.
I am glad that you seem to be enjoying the experience
of searching for criminal records. I feel rather guilty about asking someone to do all this work.
It might be fun to find a black sheep of your own ;D.
I have one, but he never got caught and lived out his life
in comfort, hiding on a Carribean island. It took me a couple of years to track him down, great fun.
Cheers,
Carmela
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Hi Carmela
I live in Nottingham but have been too busy to be on Rootschat or go to the archives for quite a while. In the past I have looked up many queries for Rootschat members and solved many puzzles. I am mystified by your query and the fact that it has not been solved. I have read all of the replies but can you summarise names and dates and what you would like to know or find at Nottm archives. I am on annual leave on Friday so I may be able to go for an hour or two.
Jane
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Hi Jane,
Thank you for the kind offer. Perhaps a fresh set of eyes
is just what we need. I'll send you a PM with details.
Carmela
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Carmela, I think the person you are looking for is my sister-in-laws family member. As I was just doing some research for her and her background. If you would care to reply back to me I could get more info from her. As she has a birth certificate of this "Stanley" being born in Prison at that time.
I know the families and where they lived, etc.
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Sunshine,
I am in a state of shock :o :o :o. This is fantastic! Beyond my wildest dreams. I'll send you private message as soon as I recover from the shock.
Thank you, so much.
Carmela
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Wow... this is terrific news.
If you don't mind Carmela could you let us know how this turns out?
dollylee
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Of course, I'll let you know what happens. So many people have been involved in this that I could not leave you all in the dark.
Have sent Sunshine a PM. Await further developements.
Cheers,
Carmela
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Hey Carmela my great great grandfather William Stanley was born in the Nottingham jail I'm wondering if there is any link?
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i was also wondering if sunshine or jane swan was able to give you any in site to this. Im very curious to know more about the whole thing if they are linked in any way. thanks!
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This is a very old thread, I don't know if the protagonists are still on RC.
Anyhow the following are from the Notts Evening Post (available online through the British Newspaper Archive)
24 Jan 1884; Ellen Stanley, a domestic servant, was charged with stealing £4 in silver and a gold dress ring from Mrs Eleanor Sollery, her mistress. The prisoner did not deny the charge, and she was remanded so that a communication might be sent to a clergyman in Burton on Trent, who would be able to give some information respecting the girl.
31 Jan 1884: sentenced to 3 months imprisonment for the above crime (a few more details -- amount stolen now stated to be £7 and the ring: she worked as a domestic servant and her boss, Ellen Sollery, was of the Kirke white public house, Cheapside)
16 Oct 1886: "Alleged impudent robberies from children; Ellen Stanley, a respectably dressed young woman, was charged with stealing a dress, value 10s, from a little boy named William Clarke, the property of Eliza Stanley, residing in Benitinck St, Sneinton." (Subsequent reports stated that the info re Eliza Stanley was incorrect). Basically, William had picked up the dress from the pawnbrokers, was tricked into handing it over to Ellen who then pawned it elsewhere. The article then mentions other thefts of small amounts of money from children. Ellen had a previous conviction for similar and had been jailed in 1885 for 6 months for this. This time Ellen pleaded guilty to both charges and received 8 mth hard labour and year's police supervision.
(maybe the 1885 period of imprisonment covered William's birth? If she was inside for 6 months there's an even chance of it doing so!)
13 Sept 1887 -- slightly different name but same modus operandi, and a Burton link: Ada Ellen Stanley, age 24, a factory hand residing in Walker St, Nottingham, was charged at Burton on Trent with 3 thefts of money from children using the same tactics as the 1886 case.
I don't know how many Ellen Stanleys there were in Nottingham in the 1880s but I'm sensing a theme here!!
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Apparently this method of robbery -- waylaying small children who were on errands and conning them into parting with money -- was known as the "Kinchin Lay"!
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Hi Annie,
Just want to thank you for posting the information from the newspaper articles. These were not available online when I was searching several years ago. All I found was an accout of the 1886 trial.
I never did find out what became of Ellen. I think that will remain a mystery.
Carmela
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Hello all,
I am William Stanley’s great-granddaughter, and I came across this thread while doing my own search. Thank you all SO very much for your work on this thread! This has given me a jump-start to continue my search.
I am not sure which of my grandmother’s sisters you were in contact with, but I would like to compile all of this info for my grandmother while she is still well. She is currently 95 and is curious as to her father’s story. I have found many of these documents that you have referred to above on ancestry.ca, and your work has allowed me to find them quickly. I am happy to share this info with my grandma while she is alive, while otherwise this might have taken me some time to research myself.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of your work!
Ps, if anyone had any questions or additional info, please comment or message me. I am thankful for you all!
Pss, William Stanley homesteaded in SK and retired in beautiful BC, where he had a long life. Despite his tragic beginnings, he did have a happy life.