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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: JDGen on Saturday 23 June 07 12:48 BST (UK)
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I hope harewoodhouse doesn't mind me posting this, but looking at the replies I wonder if any of the knowledgeable listers who replied might please be able to help with my query.
My 5xggrandfather John BANKES had a coat of arms and is mentioned in Burkes Landed Gentry (1939, Bankes of Weston House). On his memorial plaque in Runcorn Church the Coat of Arms is shown at the top. There are similiarities between his Coat of Arms and those connected to the BANKES family of Soughton Hall, and of Winstanley Hall. I am stuck with his grandfather Roger BANKES - Burkes said he "Came out of Lancs before 1694" but WHERE FROM!!
So my question, is there likely to be a connection between the families due to the similarities between the Coats of Arms, and how would could I find out what the connection is? I'm posting the images below.
Thanks for any help with this, am fishing for ways to break down the brick wall which has been there for some considerable time now!!
Jean
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....and separate posting for Winstanley.
Jean
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It certainly looks as if they are all connected. The Winstanley shield shows a canton for difference in the top corner - so that is one "difference." It also shows a border (in heraldic terms a bordure) overall which implies that this was the second difference and it makes the owner of this coat of arms much further removed from the original grantee.
The difference in the edge of the cross may also be significant.
I presume that the colours are all the same: azure field (blue) with the cross being or (gold/yellow). I would have expected the fleur de lis to be yellow too. As for the canton and the bordure - hmm, no shading to help, but perhaps silver/white.
Nell
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Hi Nell,
Thanks very much for the info. Unfortunately I don't have a colour picture of any of them at the moment. Do you know where I could find one?
If it is likely that they are connected, how can I find out how? Are there any books I could order from the library that would help? I've found it really difficult to find out information on heraldry so far.
Jean
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There should be plenty of books to help you in the reference library. Try A Complete Guide to Heraldry by A.C. Fox-Davies or The General Armoury of England, Scotland, Ireland & Wales by Burke. This is a little unreliable but might be useful. Also try Papworth's Ordinary of British Armorials
Have a look at the Victoria County History for Cheshire as well - that might help with the connections and the origins of the families.
Nell
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Thanks Nell, that's a great help.
Off to the library right now, they are used to me ordering unusual books!!
Jean
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One thought. The bordure wavey as in your final example is often the sign of a link through bastardy.
David
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Hi David,
That's interesting. I think that the BANKES of Winstanley bloodline died out in 1800 with the death of William. He left his estate to his first cousin - through this Meyrick Holme inherited Winstanley and took the name and title of BANKES in 1804 - perhaps this is why.
I'm trying to find out if my Roger BANKES is connected to this family. What makes the bloodline extant? I've seen first cousins inheriting but no wider (eg 2nd, 3rd) so I wonder if this was Roger's relationship. Burkes says that Roger "came out of Lancs ... with Richard Savage, afterwards 4th Earl Rivers..." and I believe that Richard Savage was MP at Wigan. I remember getting sidetracked into the scandals of the Savage/Rivers family when I first found out about this a few years ago!!
Looking for any clues to follow up....
Jean
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I am not entirely sure but I think the direct inheritance of a coat of arms is firstly to any sons or of course their sons, then to any brothers or of course their sons. beyond that it goes to daughters and if none of those exist it becomes extant. All daughters inherit the arms if there is no male heir with no precedence as a result of age.
The males mentioned above are also entitled to bear arms before the death of the holder. In this case the arms are differenced by the addition of a label or a brisure which shows their relationship (cadency). These are retained and can be inherited with the exeception of the person who inherits the main coat of arms who will drop the label when he inherits.
Other relatives who are granted coats of arms usually have other differnces applied to the arms like the canton mentioned above.
David
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http://www.4crests.com/bacoofarbafa.html
Have nosey at these Jean..
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Thanks again David and hepburn,
Looks like I have some serious research to do here!!
Jean
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I am also a descendant from exactly the same branch of the Bankes family and 14 years on I would be fascinated to learn if you had discovered anything?
I also have insight into the tree post 1697 but nothing before.
Best Wishes