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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: ukk9 on Saturday 23 June 07 19:27 BST (UK)
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My maternal ancestors are all travellers moving between Kent & Sussex. The common Names are Kemp, Jones, Ripley, Stanford or Stamford with Brazil, Stonnel & Wilson thrown in for good measure. The names Jones & Kemp seem to be very much inter-twined.
I know that there was certainly an element of inbreeding (or line breeding as we call it in the dog world) within the family as my grandfather (Samuel Kemp/Ripley/Jones) and my grandmother (Sarah Ann Stamford/Jones) had a common half sister (Annie Ripley/Jones/Boswell).
As you can see, as a genealogy project, it’s a nightmare :-)
If anyone has any information that might enlighten me, I would love to hear from you.
regards
Steve (ukk9)
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Its not of much use, but the Brazil's are still a well known family in Horsham in West Sussex and I think they were from Traveller stock
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I might have a connection with some Stanfords from the Horsham Area Steve. They are thought to be traveller families. A long story but to cut it short my Gr great grandmother married a Harmer in Dallington, East Sussex.
On the IGI she is known as Helena Lorraine Lovekin Stanford Smith, she remains elusive in finding her birth, seems to live with a father John Smith, her mother I think was a Stanford from Horsham going by siblings birth certificates.
I am wondering if Lovekins were also travellers because the girls in the families all name different fathers (Lovekin) on their marriage certificates, usually different from the fathers named on any birth certs I find.
Very confusing family.
Kerry
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Hi My travelling families moved around the same area as yours. Their names were Hedges & Davis & (very possibly) Brewer. If you come across any of them, could you get in touch?
Thanks Maggott
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Hi again, :)
If you are more specific with your query, you'll probably get more responses, for example, how far back have you got with confirmed relatives? Do you have them on all the censuses, bmds etc. If people know what you've already got, they can see if they can help you with your "brickwalls".
I've seen a couple of Brazil traveller families on the 1851 census in Kent, do have your families this far back already? I personally love the challenge of finding these elusive traveller families on the censuses, under all sorts of strange misenumerations/mistranscriptions :)
Regards
Catherine
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Hi Steve,
My great, great grandfather was Robert Wilson, born 1849 Holbrook, Suffolk but he later moved to Kent. He was the captain of a barge and my grandfather always maintained that he was a gypsy. He had 5 children (Robert, Thomas, Elizabeth, Alfred and Edward) all born in Maidstone, sadly he drowned in November 1892.
I don't suppose he has popped up in your research?
Claire
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I'm afraid not, but I shall certainly bear it in mind for any futire reseach
Steve
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Very interested in this post, I have Ripley's by the bucketload, also a couple of Wilsons and 1 Brazil. Primarily Im interested in Roberts. But they were all Sussex and Kent.
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my 7 x great aunt married a Kemp and i have info. on them right down to the early 1900's i do not think they were great travelers as they tended to stay round Heathfield in Kemps farm etc.
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I have a Mary Brazil, and a Charity Wilson. Both connected to the Roberts family in Sussex/Kent.
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Hi Steve & Rebekahm- In reply to your Post. My Rom Grt Grt Grand mother was Diana(h) Wilson . I think she was from Kent. She married William Roser/Rosaire and came to Western Australia in 1842 per "Simon Taylor". They brought their children and had a few more here in W.A. I located them with their family on the 1841 census for East Grinstead Common. This was the year before they came to Australia. Can you help me at all with the Wilson family. I know very little about them in UK. I do know that the Wilson's were Fair Ground people and the connection to the Rosaire & Guess family is shown on the Wilson Family Tree site on the net. I would appreciate any help and names that you could give me. Apart from this site you can contact me on
MODERATOR COMMENT: email address removed to avoid spam and other abuses. Please use personal message system to share email addresses and other personal details. Thank You
Maybe we could exchange family tree's- Roser
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Kerry- can you tell me the name of the flower on your profile. It is beautiful- Roser
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Kerry- can you tell me the name of the flower on your profile. It is beautiful- Roser
Hi Roser
Its a hellebore.
Kerry :)
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hi roser.i call them christmas roses.i have quite a few in my garden.they are supposed to flower at christmas but mine always come about march!love cathay
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Hi Cathay- I have never seen them before and I don't know if we have them in Western Australia. It's probably to hot for them but they could grow down south. Are they a bulb- Roser
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no dear,they are grown from seed.i wonder if i could send you some.they come in all colours.i think we had better put this on a gardening thread!!!love casthayb
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Hi
I have just discovered confirmed links with Hedges stemming from Eden Brewer from Surrey & links with Kent. My mother's grandmother was Elizabeth Hedges, her father was the son of Eden Brewer, born in Surrey, married in Hadlow Kent.
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Im afraid I dont have a Diana Wilson, my Charity had siblings Jane and Mary Ann. Their mother was Patience. Their father John was originally from Durham area.
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Hi Steve
For info on Stanfords, you might try getting in touch with Henry and Paula Stanford at their Romany Life Centre in Cranbrook, Kent. Info here:
www.bbc.co.uk/kent/content/articles/2006/08/02/gypsy_feature.shtml
You'll find them very approachable and knowledgeable.
Best wishes
Sharon
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To Maggott
Thanks for responding re Hedges/Brewer family. I'll need to make one more post before I can answer personal messages.
I know very little at the moment about the Brewer family. I've only just found out about the Hedges.
I'll keep searching.
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Hi i am a relitive of the Stanford family, They were around the tunbridge wells area of Kent, im currently searching for them, my mums mum and dad were Florence Emily Stanford and George Stanford he was a hawker, mum was born in 1931.
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these guys are my relitives, Henry is my Second cousin. x
Hi Steve
For info on Stanfords, you might try getting in touch with Henry and Paula Stanford at their Romany Life Centre in Cranbrook, Kent. Info here:
www.bbc.co.uk/kent/content/articles/2006/08/02/gypsy_feature.shtml
You'll find them very approachable and knowledgeable.
Best wishes
Sharon
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Hi Steve,
There seems to be a connection between Jones and Porter. Charles Porter, born Portsmouth 1823 is also known as Charles Jones (1861 census, Newark, Chailey, Sussex) The Porter|Jones's have connection with the Bacon family from their Surrey years during their slow move from Sussex from Hampshire around 1845. They spent a lot of time aroung Hastings and Heathfield, Sussex. One of these Bacon-Porters rommered my great Uncle Bill Clark.
My distant Clark family relatives wed Kemps women twice (Burwash, Sussex, census returns of of 1851-1881, Sophia Kemp) and Wadhurst (1871 census, Lucy Kemp) then Pembury (1881 census). These Clarks are static compared to my other Clark relatives, but the names of the Burwash lot are unconventional which points to Romany (or a speech defect). The Pembury Clark-Kemps I think emigrated to Canada shortly after 1881.
Brenchley & Horsmonden in Kent, Warbleton & Ticehurst, Sussex and [Northiam, Ore, Pett and Fairlight - all near Hastings] seem to have stopping places where Romanies atched regularly.
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My great great granny was Mary Ann Clark born 1864, daughter of James and Grace, from Sussex. She may fit in with your Clark's...
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My Grandmother was Gustus Jones her Father was Obee Jones And his father was Samuel Jones RomanY Folk from Sussex and Kent they Married into the Brazill,Lee,Penford,Family's of Sussex,they also lived along with the Days,Barkers,Knaves and Ripley's of which all the sunames in the kent town that I live are quite bundent,I have only just started my tree this year and it is strange that all those Surnames are of people that I went to school with but at the time did not know that I was related to some of them,
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I have a Martha Jane Robert/s in my tree as a 3x great grandmother she married John day she was born in Marden,Kent abt1816 and has been recorded as a Pedler they married in 1834 and John died 1n 1845 in sussex,they had been moving around Sussex and Kent with the Makrill,s Collins Barker's and Jones
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Hi to those who may know
My grandfather was thomas jones born 1888 he married in 1925 to eleanor roberts born 1898 sussex, thomas's father was john jones and eleanor's father was william roberts and mother charity wilson.
eleanor and thomas had three children, elizabeth, rose jane and millicent - does anyone have any info re thomas and john jones - thanks
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William was known as Jockey Roberts, my granny remembers him!!! Jockeys brother Samson was my great great grandad. BUT we didnt know Jockey and Charity had an Eleanor? The kids we knew about are: Patience, Selina, Samson, John, Henry, Charity and Absalom. However, Patience had a girl named Esther who married John Roberts.
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hi rebekah great to hear from you - here is a list of relatives from gypsyjib 1911 census extract - hope im on the right track
ROBERTS William Head 41 Licenced Hawker Hastings Sussex (Born c1870)
ROBERTS Charity Wife (nee Wilson?) 39 Married 19 Years Assisting in Hawken Tunbridge Wells /Sussex/Kent (Born c1872) Married Sept Quarter 1893 Hailsham (spans border of Sussex and East Sussex)* at the age of 21 yrs marriage info from free BMD
ROBERTS Patience Daughter Single 15 Hastings Sussex (Born c1896)
ROBERTS Eleanor Daughter 13 Hastings Sussex (Born c1898)
ROBERTS Samson Son 11 Hastings Sussex (Born c1899/1900) Ticehurst spans border of Kent and Sussex
ROBERTS John Son 9 Hastings Sussex (Born c1902)
Eleanor, also known as Ellen, my grandmother married a thomas jones in Cornwall 1925, they parted in 1930 and ellen went on to marry an edward ayres in aldershot around 1932
I guess we must be related?
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Yes thats the family Ive got but didnt have Eleanor. Yes we're related, the common ancestors we share are William (Jockey) and Samson's parents; who were Matilda and Samson. And yes, Charity was from the Wilson gypsy family.
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Hello Reli :)
Great, however, i did miss some siblings off in my excitement
ROBERTS Henry Son 6 School Tonbridge Wells Kent (Born c1905)
ROBERTS Charity Daughter 4 School Ledbury Hereford (Born c1907) (Died 1911)
ROBERTS Absolom Son 1 Llangynwyd Lower Glamorgan (Born c1910)
7 Children Born Alive
Licensed Hawker Coytrahene Near Bridgend Glamorganshire
RG14PN32540 RG78PN1858 RD591 SD1 ED15 SN89
Maybe your gran can remember Eleanor as I would love to trace eleanor's husband Thomas Jones origins - on their wedding cert it stated that thomas was a cutler and his father John was a general dealer.
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I'll get my aunty to ask her, Shes in her 80s tho and not very well she cant remember a lot. Did you find Eleanor in 1911? Have you got anything (birth, marriage, death, baptism cert) with Eleanors name on? Im wondering if she used another name.
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Thank you re your gran, I know it's tough as my mum Elizabeth is in her 80s too and doesn't remember as well as she used to. Yes I have a marriage cert and death cert both say Ellen and on my mother's baptismal cert it states Eleanor.
Eleanor is listed with the Roberts family on the Ancestry website 1911 census in Coytrahene Nr Aberkenfig reg district Bridgend Wales.
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Just had another thought - Eleanor Roberts was 28 and Thomas Jones was 38 when they married in 1925 St Austell Cornwall, maybe they both had had another marriage previously? Maybe someone with know?
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surprised to see a Cornwall connection, never known any of the family to be down there. Incidentally my 4th cousin Lisa (nee Roberts) is now living in Cornwall. Many of the Roberts gypsies didnt marry officially, they had a gypsy ceremony. My great grandparents and all their ancestors are typical of this.
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I think this is because Eleanor's husband Thomas Jones did his hawkering in Cornwall, he was known as the hawker of St Clere, my mother Elizabeth was born in Par Moor St Blazey in 1926 her sister Millicent was born in Cardiff 1928 and Rose Jane the youngest sister was born in Liskeard 1930.
Thomas also went to the Barry Island Fair to mend chairs, cutlering etc.
We'll carry on researching to try and find out more and let you know what we find.
Take care and thanks for all your info much appreciated.
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Hi Rebekah
Any news from your gran re eleanor roberts/ellen roberts - she definitely is part of the Sussex Roberts family i.e. William Roberts being her father - by the way do you know when William Roberts (Jockey) died?
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Hi, I think I have travellers on my Dad's paternal side. I have hit a brick wall with Andrew Jones who since marrying Elizabeth Williams (from Newport, Wales) in Horsmonden in 1878 has stated his birthplace as Rotherfield, Sussex but I can find no trace of him anywhere before his marriage! His father was John Jones who was a Sweep.
There's an Andrew Jones who was baptised in Cowden, Kent in 1841 & his father was John Jones but I have been unable to verify this as a match. The marriage certificate has Andrew's age as 34 in 1878 but they may have just been guessing so I'm hoping this is the right one in which case his mother would be Mary Ann. Andrew's family settled in the Brenchley area after marrying.
Can anyone help please?
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Richard, no trace or memory of Eleanor/Ellen sorry. Jockey was coming home from the pub when someone cycled into him, he subsequently died, this was in Kent. Not sure wen he died, but he attended someone elses funeral in 1933.
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Hi Rebekah
Thanks for coming back to me re Ellen Roberts and the info re Jockey, much appreciated.
Hope things are well with you, my name is Veronica but I go by the tag of Richardxii will explain reason some day.
Trying to research the Jones side now - verrrrrry daunting!!
Veronica
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Lol ok, Ive always thought of u as a mush named Richard ;D a branch of Gypsy 'Jones' married into my Roberts. Rosina Jones, daughter of Andrew and Coralena.
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Haven't heard the expression mush for a very long time - thanks for the info re Jones, am now looking for where and when in Kent Jockey died, I've come across when Charity Roberts nee Wilson died, if I'm correct this was in Cranbrook which spans boundaries of Kent and Sussex, she died 1st quarter 1939 aged 62 and I also believe the Roberts had another bereavement around that time so will keep looking.
lol :)
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Charity died in High Tilt, Cranbrook in 1939 yes. There were 17 car loads of mourners. She left 6 kids, 32 grandkids and 1 gt-grandchild.
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Hi I found a reference to the "brockers" and a post by Claire relating to Robert Wilson 1849 from Holbrook Suffolk a Bargee who drowned in Maidstone Kent. He was my great Grandfather on paternal side. She was asking for information relating to "Travellers". I would like to contact her to discus links with this gentleman and share information I already have.
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Charity died in High Tilt, Cranbrook in 1939 yes. There were 17 car loads of mourners. She left 6 kids, 32 grandkids and 1 gt-grandchild.
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Had a reply from the Brockers ref above as personal message, but cant reply as new member.
I have quite a bit of info. Robert was my great grandfather and his daughter Caroline (Keziah) b1886 was my grandmother and sister to Elizabeth Eliza Wilson. Keziah Married my Grandad Fredrick Robert Parker b 1885 - My Dad was Sidney Parker b1919
Derek Parker
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Derek,
You should be able to reply now that you've made a couple of posts. :)
Trystan
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My maternal ancestors were also in the Sussex area and moved around between Sussex and Kent. They were SAYERS, some of whom were Hawkers, Dealers and Labourers and there are so many it is hard to unravel but I am getting there! Since I was a child my Mother used to tell me there were rumours about "gypsy blood" in the family and now I realise that some of the words she used to use could have held clues. For instance she used to say "togs" for clothes and she has lots of superstitions. Dark hair, eyes and olive skin is also prevalent in the family.
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Hi,
My mother back in the sixties and seventies lived next door to a family called Sayer, and a few years ago at her wake I spoke to the man about family trees etc and I recall he did say that his family came from the Sussex area and that his ancestors were as the name say's Sayers, the Romany did not have Sayers in that sense but the surname "Sayer/s" is referenced as Gypsy life in the Journal's of RTFHS,
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My maternal ancestors are all travellers moving between Kent & Sussex. The common Names are Kemp, Jones, Ripley, Stanford or Stamford with Brazil, Stonnel & Wilson thrown in for good measure. The names Jones & Kemp seem to be very much inter-twined.
I know that there was certainly an element of inbreeding (or line breeding as we call it in the dog world) within the family as my grandfather (Samuel Kemp/Ripley/Jones) and my grandmother (Sarah Ann Stamford/Jones) had a common half sister (Annie Ripley/Jones/Boswell).
As you can see, as a genealogy project, it’s a nightmare :-)
If anyone has any information that might enlighten me, I would love to hear from you.
regards
Steve (ukk9)
My granny was a Brazil before she married my grandfather, George bignall. Her parents were ada and Ben Brazil, travelled all round kent before stopping on a site in sittingbourne before they died about 25 year ago. I grew up on a site and know some of the names you have mentioned Jones Samuel. Would like to find my family right back but i don't know past my great grand parents, my grandfather George's family were from swanley dartford foots cray, still loads of cousins of his round that way till this day, but don't know no further that his parents that were Flo and George I think but not 100%
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Gypsy History is entwined with marriage of cousins even brother and sisters in the past and it can be very hard to unravel say the Jones who ended up being Boswell's or The Lee's who had originally been Emmett's the Hilden's who had been Small's etc etc, and then you are told say the Brazil's and the Jones are they are one and the same from over in Surry or the Botton's or Denby's someone say's, no they are not Gypsies, the thing is any surname can be a Gypsy name, just because they are never mentioned as a Gypsy does not make them Gorger, I have many Gypsy friends who are not in my family line but live in my town so research is easy to a point but sometimes contradictory so caution is always needed when listening to tales of old, I even remember once talking to a English Traveller who tried to pass themselves of as a Romany, why I do not know as their history is as rich as the Gypsy's, finding your past is just a matter of research research research, and leg work as you wont find it all on the WWW.
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Hi
My 2XGrandmother was Mary Roberts born 1863 in Burgess Hill (if Census is to be believed). She had a son Thomas Roberts my Great Grandfather to an unknown father, before marrying Edward Bacon (but he also used the name Albert Bacon or Gillet) from Bexhill/Hastings area. He was the son of Robert Bacon and Naomi Gillet.
I do not know if Mary Roberts is the daughter of Samson Roberts as i cannot find any Birth, Baptism or Marriage for Mary, so i was interested in this post as both Roberts and Bacon were used.
The family story is that a Jumping Jack (John) Harris was Thomas Roberts father but again this is just a family story
Many thanks
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Hello,
Finding a baptism / christening may never happen sadly it is all to often an event, there are some parish records for Mary Roberts, Lewes-1860, Rye-1863, Farnham-1865, Westhampnett-1866, not sure if the father is a Samson the two of births at Hastings 1865 and Hailsham 1866 are one I note are living with Brazil's [other spelling] they two lived in Surry, some of the Roberts did move around a lot into Kent, Middlesex and the other way into Hampshire so perhaps a wider scope may help you, Harris well, I have two lines and they are some what of a conundrum, some did become travelling showmen so moved around quite a lot also, Bacon and Gillett are noted only from 1799 as a Gypsy surname but they may have gone under another before that time, I have a friend who is a Gillett who says his family had been Gypsy at one point he believes but long ago, anyhow most of this you may know and another member may be able to help, good luck, I hope you find what you seek.
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Sorry for late reply. Yes the Gillett's are linked to the Roberts and the Bacon's. Mary wasnt the daug of Samson but I have Naomi Gillett and the Bacons in my tree. Also a Faith Harris married Esau Roberts, who was Samsons son. Poss related to your Jumping Jack Harris...
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Thanks for the replies
I have found out a bit more about Mary since i posted. She died in 1929 in Crowborough, Sussex and my Great Uncle Fred Roberts was the Witness. Edward Bacon then moved to Timbercroft Lane in Plumstead and lived with Mary and Edward's son Fred who had married Dorcas Swan.
I have also been contacted by Caroline Bacon and Mary and Edward are her Great Grandparents. Like me she does not know much about Mary but was told the same story as my family in that she came from Ireland and landed in Wales. She then took the name Roberts and travelled across Wales and England to Fairwarp in Sussex. Why she took the name Roberts and travelled across the country i do not know.
Rebekah do you have a Jessie Roberts in your line as i have a couple of newspaper articles where Edward Bacon along with Jessie were arrested together
Paul
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No I dont have a Jessie Roberts. Interesting about Wales; my lot went from Sussex and Kent to South Wales, through Herefordshire. We're also related to the Deacons, as Samson's daughter Celia married inti the Deacons and they were flower sellers who ended up with a couple of shops.
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Thomas Roberts my Great Grandfather son of Mary Roberts married Lizzie Deacon. Thomas was a Fish Hawker and Lizzie and her sisters were Flower Sellers in Worthing.
I also have Celia Roberts in my tree as she married Henry Deacon and i am related to these Deacons. End up with Flower Shop in Portsmouth i think.
Paul
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That's the same Celia :) Im descended from her brother Samson.
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Hi Steve
I realise this is a long shot, but thought it worth asking. My grandmother had Travellers in her ancestry - the Eastwoods, who started off in Sussex & then worked there way across to Maidstone/Dartford. In 1867 John Eastwood married an Ann Jones in Bexley. She was born any time between 1837 & 1841 - depending on which census you believe, & she consistently gave her place of birth as Bexley. Her father's name was George. This is all I've been able to find out, & have been through the 1841/51 census's for Bexley & Bexley Heath without finding them. She & John had their first child in 1861. Is this a family you've come across?
Many thanks
Lady Nicotine