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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: signgilder on Monday 09 July 07 01:06 BST (UK)
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I am searching for further information about the family of Morgan Lewis Williams and his wife Catherine Elizabeth Thorne, who lived on Ireland Island, Bermuda, at least between 1910-1922. They may have also had residence in Portsmouth, England, before, during or after this period.
Morgan Williams was an engineer, apparently born in Turkey abt. 1873, but a British subject. His parents possibly were Welsh. He sometimes, with or without his family, made numerous crossings between Southhampton & New York, and between Bermuda & New York during the stated period. Children who appear on passenger lists include Mora Winifred & Vera Williams.
My connection to the family is through Catherine, daughter of my 2nd great grandaunt. Catherine was born in Portsmouth around 1879, her father Charles William Thorne a Royal Navy engineer, her mother Catherine Day Borrett a native of Greenwich.
I've learned that Ireland Island was home to a Royal Navy base, so perhaps there is a link.
According to information on LDS Family Search, Catherine (Thorne) Williams died in Reseda, California, and her husband in England six years later. I am very interested in learning the story behind these relatives and perhaps communicating with descendants, if they exist.
Any help much appreciated.
Wayne, Ohio, USA.
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Hi Wayne,
I found a Morgan Williams age 28, single, born Constantinople, in the 1901 census at 33 St Georges Square Portsmouth. He is a boarder with the family of Charles Baggs. No occupation is given. Let me know if you need any more information on this.
I checked the 1871-1875 GRO consular birth index and couldn't find him but I did find two possible siblings:
Ernest Williams b. Constantinople vol 5 page 1825
Frederick Edward Williams b. Constantinople vol 5 page 1829
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Here's another possible sibling in the GRO Consular Births index for 1871-1875:
Edith Williams Constantinople vol 5 page 1792
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Here is Edith Williams with her father in 1901. Do you know the name of Morgan's father?
16 Stockwell Park Road, Lambeth
William Williams 71 agent for "Waifs and Strays" Savoy St. Strand b. London Newington
Sarah Williams 37 wife b. Hants Ramsey
Arthur J Williams 32 son Commercial Clerk Doultons Pottery b. Constantinople
Edith Williams 30 daur b. Constantinople
Robert H Williams 14 son b. London Stockwell
Albert E Williams 10 son born Hants Ramsey
Charles E Williams 7 son b. Hants Ramsey
Harold W Williams 7 months b. Hants Ramsey
RG13/423 Folio 8 Page 8.
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That same Williams family in 1891 at 16 Stockwell Park Road:
William Williams 60 Clerk b. Stockwell
Sarah Williams 27 wife b. Hant Ramsey
William H Williams 24 Clerk b. Constantinople
Arthur J Williams 22 Clerk b. Constantinople
Edith Williams 20 b. Constantinople
Robert H Williams 4 b. Stockwell
Albert E Williams 4 months b. Hants Ramsey
RG12/ 405 Folio 60 Page 47
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Here is that Williams family in 1881 in Lambeth. No sign of Morgan so maybe this is not the right family:
Wm Williams 57 Superannuated b. Southwark Surrey
Martha Williams wife 45 b. Gillingham ( ?) Dorset
Wm.Henry Williams 14 b. Constantinople
Arthur James Williams 12 b. Constantinople
Edith Williams 10 b. Constantinople
Edwd.De Montijoice Rudolph (?) /Lodger (?) /28 / Clerk Home Office /Richmond Surrey
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There's also a Morgan family in Newington in 1881 with 4 children born in Constantinople in the early 1870's. The father was an engine fitter. I guess there were a lot of British engineers and fitters in Turkey in the early 1870's working on railway construction.
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Thank you, Shaun, for searching. I don't have Morgan Williams' parents' names, so it's hard to say if these people connect to him. However, in a 1913 passenger list for the SS Oceanic, arriving in New York from Southhampton, Morgan gives the name of a brother, H.W. Williams with an address (Merthys, Tydoil ? ...hard to read) in Wales, as a contact. I see a Harold W. Williams in one of the 1901 returns you found, but he would have been only about 13-14 yrs.old by 1913, not a likely contact person.
I appreciate your interest and help.
Wayne, Ohio, USA.
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That address is probably Merthyr Tydfil in Wales - I'll have a rummage around in the Wales censuses
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Looking at his arrival in New York Oct 7 1909 on the Trinidad - he's on his way to visit relative HH Williams, 28 The Avenue, Merthyr Tydfil.
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Wayne,
As you might imagine there are lots of H. Williamses in the Merthyr Tydfil census for 1901. There are only a couple of HH Williamses though (although people don't always show their middle initials). The one that looks likely to me is Henry H Williams, a mining surveyor from Guildford Surrey but that is just a guess. He's not at The Avenue. I suggest you put a post on the Glamorgan board asking if anyone can identify the occupants of 28 The Avenue, Merthyr Tydfil in 1909. If we can get the brother's full name we will have a better chance of finding him.
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This will be quick.
I found parents of Morgan Lewis Williams on LDS Ancestral File:
William Lewis Williams, b. abt. 1847, maybe Turkey.
Fannie Elizabeth Hooper, b. abt. 1851
Also, California Death Index lists Catherine Elizabeth's death in 1956 under the surname Dixon, so she remarried, either after Morgan's death or divorce. The latter appears more likely, as the LDS source gives his death as 1962, in England.
Not sure about reliability of the data.
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The GRO index has the death of a Morgan L Williams in Birmingham in q/e Sep 1962 aged 89 (vol 9c p 286). The age is right.
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Here's something interesting Wayne.
Remember that in 1901 Morgan was a boarder with the Baggs family at 33 St George's Square Portsmouth?
Well there are these people recorded as being married in Portsea in Q/e June 1896 2b on page 901 (in alpha order):
Baggs Thomas Arthur
Cox Julia Mary
LOWE John
Thorne Catherine Elizabeth A
Checking on the census, Thomas Baggs and wife Catherine are living in the same square as Morgan at number 54 (boarding with a Mrs Saunders):
Thomas Baggs 26 electrical engineer b, Portsmouth
Catherine Baggs 22 b Portsmouth
Alice Baggs 2 b. Portsmouth
So it would seem that Catherine was married to Thomas Baggs before she married Morgan. I wonder what happened to Thomas and Alice.
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Some more interesting snippets:
- Morgan arrived in New York May 23 1910 on the Bermudian with a different wife - Kate F aged 34 and born Sheerness. This would be Mora's mother I assume.
- Vera W. Baggs birth registered in Portsmouth q/e June 1910 2b 391. Just could be Catherine's daughter.
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Wayne have you pursued the lead in the submitted ancestral file - a (then) living descendant who was married to a Jose Pelayo ( d. 1986 in California)? And have you been able to contact the submitter?
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Alright Shaun, my head is spinning. The picture is becoming more & more confusing. I am trying to contact the submitter of information for Catherine Elizabeth Thorne on Ancestral File, named Greg H. Metzgus, and hopefully he can clear things up.
Catherine's mother, Catherine Day (Borrett) Thorne, died at age 39 in 1890 at the family home in Sheerness, so I'm thinking Catherine Elizabeth may have been born there. Could "Kate F." in the 1910 list be Catherine?
Anyway, I'll let you know if I receive a helpful reply from the gentleman named above.
Thanks so much for your persistent detective work.
Wayne.
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Hello,
I am the Great Granddaughter of Charles William Thorne, I have been researching my Grandfather Beresford Cazenove Thorne who is apparently the second son of Charles and his second wife Alice Ann Elizabeth Garner, but there appears to be some evidence that doesn't add up in the Thorne family tree. I wonder if you have any knowledge of Charles?
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Hi Eska,
Nice to hear from you. I haven't been on this site in years, but was informed of your post by the administrator (?) Sarah Davies. Apparently, there was a mix-up regarding my email address, so notifications haven't been coming to me.
My knowledge of Charles William Thorne is only sketchy and relates mainly to his marriage with my 2nd great grandaunt Catherine Day Borrett. She died in 1890, and their only child that I know of (at the moment) was Catherine Elizabeth Thorne. I really need to go back and review my notes and the research by Shaun J. in this thread. I apologize, but I've been away from family tree research for quite awhile. I do have a photo of Charles William Thorne, also Catherine Elizabeth Thorne, and I'd be happy to share them with you, if you are interested. If you have any specific questions, I will try to help. I also have a cousin in Canada who is researching the Borrett family, and perhaps she might have more information.
Thanks! Wayne Pfaff, Ohio, USA
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Hello!
Thank you for the swift response,I didn't expect a reply so quickly! It's great to connect with you especially as we have Charles Thorne in common. I think I have actually spoke to one relative from your family a few years back because I recall discovering that Charles has a Daughter previous to My Grandfather and his Brother some time ago, it was a surprising discovery as my own father hasn't a clue of this (I have chose not to tell him due to his age) as I was originally researching another mystery who is Leslie Vivian Thorne, my Grandad's older brother who my father was not allowed to see or know of. It's all a bit cloak and dagger. Anyway I do have Charles's service records which reveal that Charles never married my Great Grandmother Alice and I am currently following a lead that suggests he may have married Alice Teresa Dexter in 1893, but this is not confirmed. I could send you this if you were interested, also I'd love any info you have on Charles and Catherine as believe they had a daughter of the same name who would have been my Grandad'a half sister. :)