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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Carmarthenshire Lookup Requests => Carmarthenshire => Wales => Carmarthenshire Completed Requests => Topic started by: MEN on Wednesday 11 July 07 19:38 BST (UK)
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Just wondering if there are any members researching Morgan/Morgans from Newchurch.
MEN
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I have just started researching them. My gg grandfather was Thomas Morgan, born Newchurch or Llanpumpsaint 1807 married the second time on 23 June 1859 to widow Mary Davies nee Barrett. He gives his address as Bwlchyronnen, Abergwili and occupation as Gentleman farmer. His father is listed as Richard Morgan, Gentleman. One of the witnesses was John Morgan. This I presume to be his son born 1823 then living at Bwlchyronnen. I have the marriage certificate and a photgraph of his tombstone at Philadelpgia chapel, Carmarthen
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Hello
Many thanks for getting in touch with me. I am searching through my 'Morgan' notes to try to find a connection. I am sure we have some common ground. I hope to get back to you later today
Best wishes,
MEN
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Thanks for the prompt reply. I have just purchased and downloaded a will from NLW for a Richard Morgans 1816, Gent from Cwmdwyfran, Newchurch which I will study this afternoon to see if it throws any light on the family.
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I was looking at the NWL wills yesterday too but got a little side-tracked by my other 'Morgans' family ( Llanfihangel Rhos y Corn and Llanybydder ) There were quite a few interesting connections in one Morgans Will but not enough to establish any direct relationship.
As regards the Morgan family at Newchurch/ Llanpumsaint/Abergwilli I will give you the information I have. I have traced my family back to John Morgan b Abt 1796 . His father was Richard Morgan, a gentleman farmer or as described on one of the marriages of John, a Gentle-farmer! John was my Gt Gt Gt Grandfather His first marriage was to Margaret Jones - my Gt Gt Gt Grandmother. I have the Parish Record of this marriage and the witnesses were Oliver Morgan and Wi ill? John. The marriage took place at Llanpumsaint in 1817. Margaret died in 1836 at Llangwilly/ Glangwilli, Llanpumsaint and his 2nd marriage was to Ann. She died 1845 at Pentrefynys, Abergwilli . John's 3rd wife was Sophia Thomas, a widow.I have their marriage certificate and the witnesses on that are Richard Morgan and David Davies. They married at the PC Conwil in 1850. Sophia died 1885. I am wondering if John could be a brother of your Thomas. One of John's son's farmed at Bwlchyronnen Abg. 1861 census His name was Richard.
I can give you further information on the family of John Morgan and the various abodes.
I hope this information doesn't add to the confusion!
Best wishes,
Maureen
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Thanks for the information. My Thomas Morgan born circa 1806/07 in Newchurch or Llanpumpsaint (depending on the census) was my great great grandfather who gives his address at his marriage to Mary Davies in 1859 as Bwlchyronnen, Abergwili.
There were no Morgans living there in 1851 so the family must have moved there between these dates. He gives as a witness John Morgans and he is residing at Bwlchyronnen in the 1861 census but was only born in 1824 so is likely Thomas' son and not your John.
I have now studied the will of Richard Thomas who died 1815 and he had a relict wife, Margaret an elder son David, a younest son Oliver and a middle son Thomas.
Oliver is a family name in my family and so all the information seems to fit.
It does not appear to fit your John's profile who may well have been a brother to this Richard?
I can let you have the will if you wish
regards
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Thank you for your reply.
The reason I thought that your Thomas and my John Morgan may be brothers was that both had fathers named Richard ( Gentlemen farmers) and they were born within about 10 years of each other which could well be possible with such large families. An Oliver Morgan was witness to John's marriage to Margaret Jones (1817) and one of John's sons was named Oliver. As regards the connection with Bwlchyronnen, I have John's son Richard there in 1861.
The children of John Morgans were
Elizabeth b 1818
Thomas
Richard
David
Oliver
John
Rachel
Charles
Elizabeth was my Gt Gt grandmother and was married to David Davies
The farms associated with my family are Llangwilli known also as Glangwilli LPsT
Mill Farm LPst
Pentrefynos ABG
Fyrbainlyr LPst
Dole Conwil Elvet
Cwmgwilly Farm ABG
Cwmgwilli Mill ABG
If only I lived nearer to Carmarthen I might be able to sort out the jigsaw! Was the Will which you accessed for Richard Morgan, Cwmdyfrain? I haven't as yet managed to find a link with that abode
I will try to continue the search!
Best wishes,
Maureen
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Hello Maureen
I only live about 30+ miles from Carmarthen and I know the area quite well. My Thomas gave his address in 1859 as Bwlchyronnen, Abergwili as his witness John from the same address. I know that Thomas was married at least once before so it is reaasonable to assume that this John is his son and not that of your John! but his birth certificate will clarify it. have you obtained it and clarified this point?
The will is of Richard Thomas living in Cwmdwyfran which is a village in the parish of Newchurch across the Gwili river from the parish of Abergwili and the dates and names do seem to tie up.
I have been to the Carmarthen Record office and checked the parish registers for newchurch and Abergwili parishes.An Oliver Morgan 25 of Gwastad died 25 Feb 1826; A David Morgan 6months of langwli died 10 Sept 1823; a Margaret Morgan 30 Glangwilly died 30 Jan 1829 (possibly the widow of Richard Morgans 1815); a David Morgan 9mnths of Langwili died 7 Dec 1834.
The burial records show that a catherine Morgan 64 from Newchurch buried24 dec 1814; and a catherine Morgan 87 buried 17 Jan 1815 from Llanpumpsaint (neighbouring parish) and a Hugh Morgan 26 buried 8 Feb 1815 from newchurch. These may not be of any interest to you but there are few Morgan/s in these three parishes that I researched them anyway.
I apologise if you already have this information but if you wish me to arrange to research further in the CRO please do not hesitate to ask as you may well be a relation! Thomas Morgans was my great great grandfather
regards
Roger
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Hi Roger
There are a couple of things which I am finding a little confusing. Firstly it was not John Morgan who was living at Bwlchyronnen in 1861 but his son Richard. This is what i have for Richard Morgan
1841 living at Llangwilly LPst aged 15 Ag Lab
1851 living at Dole, Conwil Elvet with his wife Rachel. He is aged 24, she 29
1861 living at Bwlchyronnen with Rachel . He is 33 and she 50?
1871 living with his second wife Mary at Cwmgwilli Farm ABG He is 44 Mary 55
1881 living with Mary at Cwmgwilly Mill He is 54 She is 72?
1891 living as a lodger at Clothiers Farm Lpst with Rachel Thomas and family. He is aged 64
I am fairly sure this is correct although the ages of the wives are rather erratic to say the least!
The other item which confused me was the Will. Is it for Richard Morgans or Richard Thomas?
Thank you very much for the information you sent re deaths. I do have some of them and also I have some that you have not sent so I can forward those to you if you wish. I can tell you that Margaret Morgans ( Glangwilly buried Jan 30th 1830 aged 30 ) was my Gt Gt Gt Grandmother and wife of John Morgan. I have her burial record for LPst I think I made a mistake in my previous post and wrote that Margaret was buried 1836 instead of 1830
I do have a few records which you may find interesting and I can scan these and forward them to you if you so wish. Let me know.
I think that the next step would be to try to find the births of your Thomas Morgan 1807 and my John Morgan Abt 1796.John's age varies quite a lot. In 1841 he is 45 1851 he is 52 but in 1861 he is 70! He died April 24th 1861 aged 70!
As with all my Carmarthenshire family history, a lot more delving needs to be done!
Many thanks Roger,
Best wishes,
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
Mea culpa, lucky I have you checking on me. I have been trying to do too many stands of the family tree and got completely confused. Yes of course it is young Richard who is at Bwlchyronnen in the 1861 census. If he is your John's son then why was my Thomas living there in 1859 when he got married as that is the address on the certificate? Do you have direct evidence that this Richard is John's son?
Once I can identify the exact reference for Thomas's birth then I will order a certificate. Thomas's birthyear varies between 1806 and 1807 and between Newchurch and Llanpumpsaint
Thankyou for the other information although I had some of it ,it is very helpful. The will is for Richard Morgans and I am sending you a scan of it for your information. You must think me very muddle headed.... oops the pdf file is too large to attach so I will scan the 2 pages in the am and forward them too you as I have to go out. The file was still too large so I have transcribed it as a .txt document, hope this helps
kind regards
Roger
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Hi Roger,
You asked if I had direct evidence that Richard living at Bwlchyronnen was in fact John Morgan's son.
If I remember correctly this was the only Richard Morgan with wife Rachel which I found in 1861. From LPst Marriages I have Richard Morgans married to Rachel Griffiths 25 May 1849. Both the age of Richard given in the census 1851/1861 and the marriage to Rachel Griffiths seem to tie in.He was no longer at Dole, Cowil Elvet in 1861. I have searched the previous family at Bwlchyronnen to see if I could establish a connection with the Morgans. John Daniel's wife died before the 1861 census and he moved to L ar Arth and worked as a Mason.
I have found with other of my farming relations that they often swapped farms but the link with your Thomas Morgan remains a mystery at the present time !
I hope to forward some of the 'Morgan' details tomorrow.
Best wishes,
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
Your evidence looks pretty convincing, thanks. I called at the Carmarthen RO and extracted all the Morgan/s entries for the parishes of Newchurch and llanpumpsaint. They are:
Marriage of Thomas Morgan of Newchurch to Ann Jones by Banns 16 Dec 1817;
Marriage of John Morgans to Margaret Jones 31 Oct 1817 in presence of a Oliver Morgan and Wibill John;
Burial records show:
Catherine Morgan age 64 from Newchurch on 24 Dec 1814;
Catherine Morgan age 87 from Llanpst. 17 Jan 1815;
Hugh Morgan age 26 from Newchurch 8 Feb 1815;
Anne Morgan age 81 from Llanllawddog 26 Nov 1816;
Richard Morgan age 2 from Gwastadmawr 25 Aug 1823
David Morgan of Clytau Cochion age 24 died 21 Sept 1825
Oliver Morgan age 25 of Gwasted died 25 Feb 1826
David Morgan age 6 mnths died 28 Feb 1829;
Margaret Morgan age 69 of Glangwilly died 30 Jan 1829;
David Morgan age 9 mnths of Langwilly died 7 Dec 1834;
There are a few others which I shall include next time. Hope these are of some use.
Roger
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Hi Roger,
You have been busy! Many thanks for those. You will see that I have some of these entries in the information I am sending, but not all. I think we are both on a mission to solve the 'Morgan' family once and for all. Lets hope we are successful! I hope you will be able to make sense of the information I am sending as it was done quite a while ago and some of it is in note form. Let me know if you have any problems deciphering it.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
I am back on line and hoping that you received my attatchments which were too large to send via Rootschat. I will study your information and make sure that we are talking about the same Thomas Morgan. It does appear so but I have been confused before as you know!
We are going to the National Library of Wales at Aberystwyth on monday to look up some other records and I will try and find out some more about Thomas Morgan. Is there anything that I can try and research for you there?
see you soon
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Yes many thanks for the attachments.
Thank you also for your very kind offer regarding NLW I have so many questions unanswered that it would probably take you a week to scratch the surface! I would however like to try to solve the 'Morgan' family jigsaw. I have found John Morgans death certificate 21st April 1861. He is aged 72. I will scan it and forward it to you. If these details are correct we can assume that he was born about 1789.I think that previously I had put his birth date about 1796.His father was Richard,Gentleman Farmer.
I hope you have some success with your research. The national Library is such a wonderful place but I always run out of time when I visit.
Best wishes,
Maureen
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Maureen and Roger
I read this trail with much interest. I am descended from John Morgan 1794-1861, through the line of John's son Thomas (born 1824/5). Thomas became a coal merchant, apparently in the Glamorgan coalfield area. Thomas's son David (1852-1908) established his own successful grocery shop in Treorchy, Rhondda, and David's son Matthew Henry Morgan (1886-1950) was my father's father.
There is one point on which I am puzzled. My own research in parish registers led me to think that the father of Richard Morgan (Richard being the father of John 1794-1861) was John. Richard, son of John Morgans, was baptised at Newchurch, Carmarthenshire, on 7 Jan. 1753. I have not been able to trace further back than this because the parish register is incomplete, with pages missing, and extremely difficult to read. However, the FamilySearch material states that Richard's father was David Morgan 1731-1819. I should very much value your views on the ancestry of Richard.
John
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Hello John :)
Welcome to Rootschat!
If you have seen the original PRs then you are probably correct, as sometimes there are transcription errors and/or submitted data.
Please can you provide a link to the record you found on Familysearch?
Best Wishes
Morgan
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Dear Morgan
Many thanks for your reply. This is the Family Search link which states that the father of Richard Morgan (died about 1818, and father of John 1794-1861) is David 1731-1819: http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I212683&tree=Welsh.
Yours
John
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John
The research on the 19th century by British genealogist Alcwyn Caryni Evans held in the NLW shows that David Morgans of Cwmdwyfran, Newchurch was the father of Richard. David's will proved 3 January 1820 shows he lived at Cwmdwyfran and owned Gwastad Mawr, Llanpumpsaint and left various bequests to nephews and nieces and his 5 grandchildren, David, Richard, John, Oliver and Thomas, children of his late son Richard. He also owned Waun fach which he left to grandson David. Presumably this John is your ancestor, Maureen is I think descended from Oliver and I from Thomas.
The Newchurch Register shows he died in 1819 at Cwmdwyfran aged 93 and so was born 1726. This is confirmed by a letter in the 'Cwmgwili manuscripts' Vol 11 p334 dated 1816 'the testimony of David Morgan of Cwmdwyfran has been served with a writ for his step mother's dowry...'
There is further evidence of his living at Cwmdwyfran in Election Poll books etc.
Hope this is clear and helps but I will recheck and wait for Maureen's views.
Roger
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Dear Roger
Thank you for this helpful response. I now recognise that the weight of evidence is as you set out.
One matter which interests me greatly is the connection between our direct ancestors and Robert Morgan 1708-77, who founded (by the 1740s) the Cwmdwyfran Ironworks -
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/Newchurch/Lloyd.html . Dylan Rees's "Carmarthenshire. The Concise History" (2006) says that Robert's home town was Kidwelly. Robert's son John Morgan established the Carmarthen (and) Furnace Bank in the 1790s - see Wikipedia article entitled "Carmarthen Furnace Bank". Robert Morgan's house in Carmarthen is (says "The Buildings of Wales- Carmarthenshire" (2006)) now the library, opposite St Peter's Church. The Carmarthenshire Historian (Vol 6, 1969) states that Furnace House in St Peter's St has a connection with the Morgan family who owned ironworks in Kidwelly, Carmarthen, Cwmdwyfran, Llandyfan, Whitland and Stackpole etc. The Cwmdwyfran Ironworks operated, according to The Buildings of Wales, until 1810, with a brief restart in 1821. Charles Morgan is described in the Wikipedia article on the bank as the last male of his line. Lloyd's "History of Carmarthenshire" (genuki link above) states that Charles was active in the 1830s, and was most anxious in 1836 to let the forge.
Grateful for any thoughts you and/or Maureen have on how these Morgans relate to our direct line.
Yours
John
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Hi John
I have researched the Morgan iron-founders family who originated from Kidwelly and do not think that they are closely related. Our Morgan line married into the Cwmdwyfran estate from Llanbylan further north and I believe their only connection was that they sold timber from their estate for the charcoal to fire the foundry and the adjoining Philipps, Cwmgwili estate sold the rights to change the watercourses to power the hammers.
There is a very good article on the Cwmdwyfran Forge 1697-1839 by Michael C S Evans in the 1975 edition of The Carmarthenshire Antiquary Vol XI. I had assumed that Pentre Morgan the near by village was named after the Morgan estate but it is more likely to be the 'village of the Morgans' forge workers as it dates from nearer the 1800's.
There maybe marriages between the families towards the middle of the 19th century but it will need a lot more research. That Morgan family also started the Carmarthen Bank which eventually failed and was sold to the Morris family who relate to me through another branch which was successful and ultimately became part of Barclays Bank.
The Morgan iron founders were quite a sad family as many of the descendants were quite poorly and were nursed at Furnace House Carmarthen for much of their lives but their family history is very interesting even if they are not likely to be directly related.
Good luck in your research
Roger
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Dear Roger
This is particularly interesting. Does your reference to Llanbylan mean that our line comes from Llanbylan? Also, where exactly is Llanbylan? (It isn't listed in the detailed gazetteer which I have).
Yours
John
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Hi John
If you can get on my tree you will find the information there. The tree is evans aug2009 and hopefully it will explain the research. Having researched the Golden Grove Pedigrees and those produced by Alcwyn Caryni Evans in the NLW and read the information produced by the late Francis Jones, Herald of Wales, there is some confusion as to whether the Morgan family came from Blaenbylan or Llanbylan, Clydey. They are very close one is in Pembrokeshire and the other in Carmarthenshire but they may have been the same place and the boundary was very fluid in the 17th and 18th century. Familysearch which you have accessed also confuses the two and suggests they are the same place.
I think a lot more research is required to try and identify the definitive answer and I would be glad for any assistance you can provide.
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Dear Roger
Thank you for this. Having looked up half inch maps, I have now found the places to which you refer and those given in the Familysearch "biographies". But I can't find the evans aug2009 tree to which you refer. Sorry! Can you give me its precise location, please?
Many thanks.
John
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Hi John
I think my reply may have failed. My tree is on Ancestry.co.uk as "evans aug2009". It is public so you should have no trouble reading it
Roger Barrett-Evans
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Roger
Sorry to be a pain, but I still can't trace "evans aug2009" on Ancestry. Can you attach a link or very explicit directions, please? Apologies!
John Morgan
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John
I am sorry that you cannot find it on Ancestry as it is certainly there and I am looking at it now. I suggest you go to search on one of your Morgan ancestors and the program should show you a hint with my tree. Follow that and you should have access to it.
Try searching on the 1861 census for Thomas Morgans, born Newchurch, Carmarthenshire 1807 with spouse Mary living in the parish of Llangunnor. This should lead you to a hint and link to my tree or search for 'other people searching this person'. If this does not work connect to me via Ancestry and we will see what we can sort out.
Roger
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Hi John
I am related through John Morgan and Margaret Jones. Their daughter Elizabeth would be a sister to your Thomas b 1824. Good to find another relative!
Best wishes,
Maureen
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Maureen
Excellent. Good to make contact.
Kind regards
John
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Hi John,
I did send you a personal email off line but am not sure if you received it.
Maureen
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Maureen
Ah yes, I now see that yr email of 30 April was a personal message. I wasn't aware that personal messages were an option, but I am learning!
All good wishes
John