RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: janetmills on Tuesday 17 July 07 11:09 BST (UK)
-
Can anyone tell me how I can find a death for someone between 1841 & 1851. Scots people doesn't start 'til 1855.
Thanks
-
Hi Janet,
Welcome to Rootschat! ;D
As you've posted your message in Stirlingshire, I presume that's where your ancestors came from?
If so, have you found them in any Cencus and if you have, what district in Stirlingshire were they living?
Most of the cemeteries weren't established until around 1880 so the chances are, they'd be buried in a Churchyard. Once you establish the area, it would then be a matter of seeing if Churches local to that kept Burial/Mortcloth Records. These can vary widely from Church to Church, some were immaculately kept with lots of details while others were just a name with no relationships or personal details given at all.
Another avenue to pursue is to request a look-up in the Stirlingshire pre-1855 Monumental Inscriptions Books. You'll probably have seen quite a few references to these lately as they can be a great reference source and there's a few Rootschat members quite happy to do look-ups. Obviously if your ancestors didn't have a stone, they'll not be found in these books but there's only one way to find out!
Why not post as much detail as you have and I'm sure help won't be long in coming.
Anne
-
Details are as follows: Duncan KEIR (abt 1770). Have him on 1841 census with his wife (Janet STEWART)& family (18 Easter Garchell, Drymen). Have his wife & family on 1841,1851,1861. Janet dies in 1865. They all seem to be from Drymen, Kippen area and were farmers. Have no idea where or exactly when he died or his parents names (this is really what I want to find out). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
-
Hi Janet,
There are no MI's for Keir (or variants) in either Drymen or Kippen Churchyards.
Do you have the births for Duncan & Janet's six children? (All born in Kippen)
There is only one Duncan Keir listed as being born in Stirlingshire (in the British Vital Records) so it's a possible for your Duncan.
The details are:
Duncan Keir, born 4th July 1803, christened 6th July 1803
Parents: Walter Keir and Catharine McPheat
There is a listing for another male child born to the same couple also in Balfron on 21st March 1799 (christened 28th March 1799) but there is no name listed.
Anne
-
Me again Janet,
I double checked the MI's in Balfron and there are actually 4 separate stones. I was looking at the wrong place!! :-[
Does the following mean anything:
Janet Keir died 5th May 1837 aged 34
Ann Keir died 15th December 1869 aged 53
If you want a note of the other Keirs, just let me know and I'll post the details tomorrow.
Anne
-
Many thanks for the reply. The only child of their's that I don't have a birth for is Duncan KEIR (abt 1822) I have a christening - 8/JAN/1822. Think the Duncan you have given me maybe related in some way, but don't think he is the one I am looking for. On 1841 census my Duncan is recorded as being 70, making his dob abt 1771.
I would be very grateful of any information you can find for me. I am sure they will link in somewhere. I have hit a brickwall with this one at the monent. What I am trying to establish is his parents and siblings. Thanks once again.
-
I would think this is your Duncan:
Duncan Keir
Born: 6 Apr 1822, Christened: 28 Apr 1822
Recorded in: Drymen, Stirlingshire, Scotland
To Duncan Kier and Janet Stewart
I couldn't find any Duncans born c1771, the following was the nearest:
Duncan Keir
No date of birth listed, Christened 25 Mar 1768
Recorded in: Balfron, Stirlingshire, Scotland
To John KEIR and Agnes GRAY
This Duncan was one of six children born to this couple and all born in Balfron. His siblings: (no dates of birth listed for any of them, only christenings)
Daniel, christened 4th August 1758
Christian, christened October 1763
Margaret, christened 15th January 1766
Agnes, christened 15th April 1770
George, christened 7th January 1774
Sometimes families followed naming patterns for the children - were any of the above listed names carried on?
It's obviously not a definate way of identifying different families but it can make a huge difference when you see the same names being used repeatedly down through generations.
I've sent you a PM with some more info.
Anne
-
Many thanks for that info. Unfortunately none of the names have been carried on down the line. I have James, John, Finlay, Duncan, Alexander and a few others, but none as you list.
-
Hi janetmills,
If you list all the information which you have about Duncan KEIR & Janet STEWART and family, it just might give a clue which could help.
However, the details for the Drymen OPR in the Family History Library catalogue on FamilySearch mention deaths from 1729-1784 only - no use to you. And the Kippen film (I've had it out) has just one page of burials 1783-1793 - again no use.
Incidentally, ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 in the 1841 census so (assuming that Duncan knew his age accurately!) an age of 70 could mean anything from 70 to 74.
Is Duncan's birthplace shown as Y (i.e. in Stirlingshire) in the 1841?
You mention the name Finlay - I notice that the IGI has the baptism of a Duncan KEAR in 1770, parents Finlay KEAR & Janet MCFEAT, in Port of Monteith, Perthshire; that's not far away. They also had a Walter 1772, and Finlay & Janet 1775.
Given Duncan's age, one has to wonder whether he had been married previously and perhaps had children previously - which could mean that the naming patterns of children with Janet might not be useful. Do you have the OPR record for his marriage?
Good luck,
JAP
-
jap
I have Duncan KEIR on 1841 aged 70 (with his wife & children) - not of this county. By 1851 Duncan has died. The information you give about Duncan KEAR could be correct. If Duncan had married before would I be able to find this from Scotlandspeople?
-
Hi again janetmills,
That is a very important piece of information i.e. that Duncan is recorded in the 1841 census as born in Scotland but not in Stirlingshire! (Although this might be a trap - parts of Kippen were at times recorded as being in Perthshire.)
The more information you provide, the more likely it is that someone might be able to help you.
However, unfortunately, you might have reached a brick wall. Far from all births/baptisms or marriages are recorded on ScotlandsPeople or in the IGI. And even if Duncan's birth/baptism and/or a previous marriage are recorded on SP, how would you know you have the correct one? In the IGI, there are several births/baptisms for a Duncan KEIR (however spelled) in 1770 +/- 10 years. One of them might be your Duncan but how to tell? And there are quite a number of marriages 1800 +/- 20 years of a Duncan KEIR (however spelled); one of these might be yours but how to tell?
Have you viewed the OPR entry for the marriage of Duncan & Janet STEWART in 1820? It might say nothing more than is in the IGI but one doesn't know until one looks.
Are there any surnames used as middle names which appear in the children of Duncan & Janet or their descendants?
Were Janet and the children still in Drymen in 1851?
As well as looking for MIs in Drymen and Kippen, it might be worth a look in Buchlyvie near Kippen (in case they were of, or had changed to, the secessionist church there).
Sorry to be pessimistic.
JAP
-
hello, i dont know if this will help in any way but i have keir on my tree from around drymen and kippen area, i have a andrew kier mar: jane stewart andrew born kippen abt 1874 parents james keir and elizabeth dun. if this is ur line i have more info i can give you.
hope this helps
regards kimberley
-
To Janetmills,
I was very interested in your query regarding Duncan KEIR born c1770. We have a Duncan KEAR born 25 March, 1770 in Port of Menteith, son of Finlay KEAR and Janet McFEAT, who are myG.G.G.G.Granparents.
Regards, Murray
-
Do you know if your Duncan Kear married a Janet Stewart? My maiden name is KEIR but over time I suppose it could have started off spelt differently.
-
Hi Janet,
Unfortunately I cannot tell you whether Duncan, oldest son to Finlay and Janet McFeat married Janet Stewart, I have looked through my records and the only information I have on Duncan is from the Perth Parish Register as follows -
1770 March 25 Duncan son to Finlay KEAR and Janet McFEAT in Glenny.
I have information on Finlay's other children.
My line comes through Finlay's 2nd son Walter Keir and my surname is keir.
I have noticed a pattern on the naming of the children in our Keir families and would like to know the children's names of your Duncan Keir and Janet Stewart, from oldest to youngest child.
There appears to be two Duncan Keirs, both married in Dryman that could be the son of Finlay and Janet; or Duncan Keir was married twice.
The first to Elizabeth McFarlan 1801 and the second to Janet Stewart 1820.
Regards Murray.
-
Duncan KEIR c1772
Janet STEWART (b 9/may/1792)
Married 8/jan/1820
CHILDREN
Duncan 28/april/1822, Alexander 20/march/1824, John 2/january/1826, Finlay 7/december/1827, James 17/september/1829, Jane 23/november/1833.
Have birth Certs for all. Also have other information.
There is a large age differnce between Duncan and my Janet so he could well have been married twice.
-
Hi Janet,
My Walter Keir was listed on the 1851 census as "Farmer of 40 acres" born at Port of Menteith in 1772. He married in 1798 at Drymen, his 4th son was named Finlay. Walter died in 1852, at Port of Menteith.
I would think if your Duncan born 1770 is Finlay Kear & Janet McFeat oldest son, he married late, having sons named Duncan, John & Finlay etc. Perhaps he looked after the family farm before his father died.
If he was married before, he most probably had daughters or a son named after his wife father as he wouldn't duplicate the names of Duncan & Finlay.
Perhaps we could find out when Finlay KEAR died and where he was buried, probably Drymen. A Monumental Inscriptions might find out more of Finlay's family (All the children names you list are in our family too.)
-
Hello,
I am looking for my ancestors, my grandfather was James Keir, born approx 1904 and was from Port Of Menteith son of Duncan Keir, i believe born approx 1869 and his father i have found was James Keir , born around 1831 and his mother was Elizabeth Dunn. Seeing Duncan Keir and Walter Keir mentioned that they are from Port Of Menteith suggests that there is a relation somewhere, i am not sure if it is direct though. My Surname is Keir. I would love to know if my G.G grandfather was related in someway, especially if direct ancestors. I am stuck.
Donald
-
Did your James Keir marry Jessie Mclean? My maiden name is also Keir. Do you have any other info on any of the names you have mentioned. My James was born 1900. All the names you mention tie in with the information I have in my tree. If we are related I have loads of certs and cencus. If I can help just let me know.
Regards
-
Yes, Jessie Mclean was my grandmother and married James Keir.
James Keir's siblings were Mary Johnston Keir, Duncan Keir, Matthew Dunlop Keir, Andrew Keir and John Dunlop Keir. Are you related to one of them?
My grandfather died in October 1974, my father said he was 71, so i presumed that he was born in 1903/4. Can you give me more details about what you know? Do you anything more about Jessie Mclean?
Thanks
-
Yes I am very much related. My father was Matthew Dunlop Keir!! I have lots of information regarding the Keir's. Many Certs and census returns which I am quite willing to share. I will dig it all out and let you have what I know. I would be grateful of information from you about your grandfather if thats possible and also your father who would be my cousin!! I was in contact with a lady called Mhairi on Genes Reunited and she was the grand-daughter of Mary Johnston Keir and she also gave me some information. Will see if I find her e.mail.
Regards for now
-
I appreciate that this is an old message but Duncan Keir husband of Janet Stewart is buried in Buchlyvie Churchyard next to his brother Finlay who married Barbra Morrison.
~~~~~~~~-------------------
The MI (p36) reads
15. Finlay Keir 17.5.1850 77, w Barbra Morrison 29.5.1853 83, s Finlay 23.2.1858 46
16. (next to & resembling 15) Duncan Keir late farmer Ward 1.11.1851 80, w Janet Stewart 13.6.1865 74, s Alex Lochore K. 25.10.1880 55, s Duncan 27.11.1888 66 (w. Lillias McKenzie 5.7.1904 78)
~~~~~~~~--------------------
As Janet Keir was a widow in 1851 I think that the MI has wrongly transcribed Duncan's death. It was possibly 1.1.1851
Hope this helps. I think that the ages of the two men & names of children strongly suggests parents were Finlay Keir/Kear and Janet McFeat/McPheat
-
To Janet,
I have just realized my G.G.G.G.Grandparents Finlay Kear and Janet McFeat's oldest son was Duncan Keir who married Janet Stewart also son Finlay Keir married Barbara Morrison.
-
My grandmother was Mary Keir eldest daughter of Duncan Keir of the Baad Farm at Gartmore. Janet I think my cousin Mhairi was in touch with you at one point. I have an old photo with some of the family at the farm including James Keir and his wife Jessie.
I have probably got to the same point on the Keir side as others posted here.On Duncan Keir and Janet Stewart I have wondered why the traditional naming pattern was not followed in the family. Recently found out that Alexander Lochore was the minister for Drymen parish and it was the also tradition for the fisrt baby christened by the new minister to be given his name.
I have a lot of information on the Dun side if that is of any interest.
-
Hi,
I have returned to this site after a long absence. I was excited to see that you posted saying that you had a photograph of James Keir and Jessie at the Baad farm, these are my grandparents and the Baad farm is where my father was (*)
Donald Keir
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Janet I am having difficulty replying to personal message so will try this. I know that your dad was only a year older than mine even although they were Uncle and Nephew. I have a photograph which I will try and attach which was taken at the Baad Farm, Gartmore in 1929 (we think). It shows Duncan Keir and Margaret with selected family members. Your Dad is one of the three boys , the one on the left. My Dad (boy on the right was 9 at this time) therefore would imagine your Dad may have went to Gartmore school. Before that I know they lived in Brahead , Glasgow and in Whitehouse Argyllshire and prior to this Duncan Keir Senior was farm grieve at Bolquhon Estate, Kippen. My dad was born there in 1920.
Stayed at the Baad Farm last year as it is now holiday lets.
Would love to give you more info. if I have anything that would be of use.
-
Has anyone found any information on Alexander Keir/Kear married to Mary McKerracher living in Drymen around 1700s, or their sons Finlay Keir/Kear b. 1735 and John b. 1738.
-
Using the McKercher.org web site indicates there was a Mary McKercher born 9 April 1713 at Aberfoyle, which is not that far from Drymen and age probably fits. Father was a John McKercher and mother an Ann Graham.
Do not get put off by the Mckercher spelling on this site. All the variants were adjusted to this version for search purposes.
No details on marriage or children are listed though.
Allan