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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: PabloC on Monday 23 July 07 18:44 BST (UK)
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Here it is.
I definitely looks like 'Elizabeth Alexander formerly Jude' to me. However, I can find no trace of her!!
Paul
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Hi Paul,
give us a clue- when are you looking for her? Is she on a census as Mrs Alexander?
best wishes
heywood
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Hi Heywood,
Yes....a bit vague that, isn't it?!
Right, I've found her as Elizabeth Alexander on the England census returns for 1851, 1871 and 1891.
I've also found a potential death recorded in West Derby (Liverpool) in 1893.
The 1851 Census is a strange one though. It states that she's a 'mariner's wife', and she's alone with her 9 month old son John. As you can see, the birth certificate has William as being a Painter (Journeyman).
The 1871 Census has her listed as a widow now, with a son John (Born 1863 ish) - no sign of the older son from 1851, and a daughter Sarah (My Great, great grandmother), born in 1866.
Finally, the 1891 Census has her living with her daughter Sarah and Sarah's family.
Was looking to fill the gaps, possibly a marriage and hopefully find the 1841 census where she'd be under her maiden name! Can seem to find anything on the Free BMD, and the IGI has not turned anything up, oh, except for the 1850 birth of John Alexander...
Regards
Paul
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Hi
It might be worth just clarifying these dates and questioning if all the info does actaully belong to the same family, or if we have two Elizabeth ALexanders around here!
in 1851 we have a mariners wife with a 9 month baby John
Twenty years later...
In 1871 we have a painters widow with a 7 yr old son John, and a 5 year old daughter Sarah
My immediate thought is that the 1851 person is a different one to the others.
What age and place of birth does Eliz give in these censuses? I s the 1851 consistant?
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In 1851, birthplace is Cumberland, in 1871 its Keswick C'land, so would seem to be the same person :-\
In 1861?
RG9/2696 Folio 16 Page 28
Islington, Liverpool
William Alexander 24 Painter Manchester
Elizabeth 28 Cumberland Keswick (age transcribed as 18, but looks like 28 to me)
William J 1mon? Liverpool
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William aged 24 in 1861 would be a bit young to have been a husband in 1851. Yes I know it was lawful, but still unlikely. Not many 14 year olds could hope to support a wife and family.
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Afternoon,
Quite confusing this, isn't it?
It looks like it's the same Elizabeth on the different censuses, but the dates are way out!!!
If I purchase the 1893 Death Certificate for Elizabeth Alexander, hopefully it should be the correct one, given it's the only one within the region, it should tell me her husband's name and occupation, shouldn't it? Which would hopefully be William, who was a Painter!
Plus, you'd imagine that the informant would be one of her relatives that she was living with, and it will give me her date and place of birth, and maiden name!
I know the 1851 Census states that she was a Mariner's Wife' but, if William had been a travelling painterm might he have been classed as a Mariner?
Just checked the Death Index between 1866 and 1871, but there are loads of entries for William Alexanders round the 40's age. If he was traveling around, there no real way of knowing is there!
::) Paul
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Soory, but you wont get all that info on her death cert. Though I would still say it is worth getting.
It will give the informant (likely to be husband), cause of death, and address she died at. It may say she is 'wife of XXX' but you are unlikely to get maiden name or date of birth, just age at death.
I cant see how a painter, even a travelling one (!) would be described as a Mariner!
modified a few minutes later:
Aren't I an idiot? Of course informant wont be her husband - she is a widow, he predeceased her. So, will be interesting to see who it is. Maybe daughter Sarah if that is who she was living with. What is Sarah married name by the way - a full transcript of the census details you have would be helpful. Cant find her on 1881 at all at present.
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Hi,
Sarah is on the 1891 England Census as Sarah Manion, married Henry Manion in 1890.
Paul
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Lets work backwards in the hope of being able to find Elizabeth in 1881.
Here's the family in 1891,at 60 Gerrard Street,Islington LIverpool.
Henry Manion head 26 brazier and tinsmith b Birmingham
Sarah Manion wife 25 b L'pool
Norah H Manion dau 4 b L'pool
Christina Manion dau 2 b L'pool
John H Manion son 5 mths b L'pool
Elizabeth Alexander widow mother in law 61 charwoman b Keswick Cumberland.
RG12/2919 folio 114 page 44
Carol
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Are you sure it is William J in the 1861 census?
There is in the IGI a William Thomas ALEXANDER, parents William ALEXANDER & Elizabeth,
b 22 Feb, bap 18 Dec 1861, St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire
FreeBMD has the birth of a William Thomas ALEXANDER, Jun qtr 1861, Liverpool.
And the death of a William Thomas ALEXANDER, Mar qtr 1862, Liverpool.
Perhaps it would be worth getting the birth cert of William Thomas ALEXANDER just
in case Elizabeth's surname on Sarah's birth cert is simply an error of transcription?
I note that Sarah's birth & baptism at St Peter also seem to be in the IGI.
And an 1850 1862 birth & baptism at St Peter of a John, parents William & Elizabeth;
his birthplace is listed as Lambert St, Liverpool - any connexion with the 18561 census address?
(Edited later to correct date; it was the 1862 John, not the 1850 John - who
is also in the St Peter baptisms - who had the Lambert St address).
JAP
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JAP
I think it could just as easily be a T as a J.......difficult to be certain.
By the way the family have been mistranscribed as Alexandeer in 1861.
And I think Elizabeth's age could say 23 .
But the IGI one you'[ve just found sounds like a very possible probable to me ;D
Carol
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Here goes guys and gals.
What do you think of this scenario.
In 1851 Elizabeth and 9mth old baby John are with Joseph and Catherine Richardson in Woolfe Street,Toxteth Park.Both Catherine and Elizabeth are born in Cumberland.
Free BMD has the marriage of a Catherine Hannah on the same page as Joseph Heaton Pollard RICHARDSON in W Derby in Sept 1849.ref 20 page 954
Free BMD also has the W Derby marriage in West Derby in Sept 1849 of an Elizabeth Hannah and a William James Alexander under the same ref number,of 20 page 955.
A double wedding of two sisters?
Whadyya think ;)
Carol
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And finally, the IGI has both Catherine and Elizabeth(and a brother John) Hannah,son and daughters of John and Mary being christened on the same day, 20th June 1824 at Holy Trinity,Whitehaven Cumberland.
Carol
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Evening,
Wow. I've head to re-read this about 6 times now to try and get my head around it all!!!
This whole scenario does sound very plausible, even more so because..................
On reading your entries above, I checked out the 1851 census image again.........
Sure enough, there was Elizabeth and baby John living at 42 Woolfe St with Catherine. Then, I flicked back a page. There, living at 40 Woolfe Street was John and Mary Hannah, with their other children Margaret, Mary and Thomas!
So, Elizabeth was living next door to her parents, lodging with her sister. Elizabeth's son's middle name of Thomas, has obviously come from her brother.
As regards the discrepancy in Elizabeth's year of birth 1824 and 1830...might her husband William have been a fair bit younger than her, so she's lied about her age to lessen the age gap?? :) Would either of you be that concerned yourselves be the age discrepancy, given the other matching factors??
This really does sound like a promising line to follow. I'll have to check out all of the IGI entries etc, and as you say, perhaps buy the birth certificate of William Thomas Alexander to see what her maiden name is.
Still, that's quite a transcription error isn't it...'Jude'/ Hannah ??!!! Ha ha :D
How do you all find these things?? You're like dectectives!!!
Paul
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Just a thought
could Elizabeth been breifly married before to a Mr Jude? before marrying William Alexander, if it was betwen census it wouldne show on the census obviously.
so she may have been Elizabeth Hannah on one census, married Mr Jude, Mr Jude died then she remarried William Alexander before the next census,
:-\
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As regards the discrepancy in Elizabeth's year of birth 1824 and 1830...might her husband William have been a fair bit younger than her, so she's lied about her age to lessen the age gap?? :) Would either of you be that concerned yourselves be the age discrepancy, given the other matching factors??
Hi Paul
No I wouldn't be at all concerned about an age gap,quite fancy a toy boy myself LOL
I didn't look far enough back to notice the Hannah family next door. Well done ;)
Toni,
I did think that originally ,till I saw the marriage entries on Free BMD and she sure married as Hannah.
Oh well,do let us know as soon as you get any certs,can't wait to see if my hunch was right.
All the best
Carol....or should that be Sherlock? ;D ;D ;D
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I have looked at the 1881 census and cannot find the family..... together
however i have found these two probable people
Sarah J Alexander, age 14 b. Liverpool working as a silk winder and Lodging with Thomas & Sarah Tetlow at 11 Tonge Street,
RG11 4090 89 21
John Alexander age 17 b. Liverpool working as a Clerk in British Saw Company and lodging with George & Elizabeth Johnston & Family at 99 Beaufort Street, Toxteth Park
RG11 3637 6 10
not sure where Elizabeth is tho'
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Well here she is on the 1841 England Census in Cumberland as Elizabeth Hannah.....year of birth...
1830 !!!...
HO107; Piece 160; Book: 1; Civil Parish: Allhallows; County: Cumberland; Enumeration District: 14; Folio: 7; Page: 8; Line: 7
Cheers Toni!!! I'll take a look at those now... :D
Paul
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Well done Paul and Toni !
So that 1891 census where she gives her age as 61 was spot on eh?
Usually women have reduced their age by that stage of their lives.
Maybe hubby gave the info on other censuses and he wasn't quite sure,or the enumerator couldn't read his own writing when he came to transfer the info to his summary sheet.
Carol
Edit......date of census above should read 1891 NOT 1901 oops
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My mistake.... ::)
Thomas, was Elizabeth's father...not John!! That was her brother!
So, it was Thomas and Mary Hannah. William's middle name was after his grandfather!
Paul
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Well here she is on the 1841 England Census in Cumberland as Elizabeth Hannah.....year of birth...
1830 !!!...
HO107; Piece 160; Book: 1; Civil Parish: Allhallows; County: Cumberland; Enumeration District: 14; Folio: 7; Page: 8; Line: 7
Paul
If this 1841 family are correct ,then the 1824 baptism of Elizabeth,Catherine and John, on the IGI is not.
I certainly think that the 1851 Elizabeth is Catherine's sister.And that surely is mum and dad, John and Mary on the page before at 40 Woolfe Street.
Sorry to say Paul I don't think you have the right Hannah family in 1841.
Catherine should be 18 and Elizabeth 15....and she isn't ::)
Carol
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[quote author=PabloC link=topic=246205.msg1351422#msg1351422
Sorry to say Paul I don't think you have the right Hannah family in 1841.
Catherine should be 18 and Elizabeth 15....and she isn't ::)
Carol
they rounded the ages down to the nearest 5 in 1841 of people over the age of 14 it wasnt too uncommon to have 2 / 3 children listed as being 15 when in fact they were 16, 17, 18 for example
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I've found them Paul ;D mistranscribed as HANNAY.
Living in St Bees Whitehaven,where all the kids were born according to the 1851.
Ref HO 107/ 178 Book 3 Folio 5 .....dad John and Mum Mary.
El;izabeth at the bottom age 15 ;)
Carol
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Actually....yes, I'd rushed on that one a bit. You're right.
I really am going to have to establish a solid link to the Hannah family via a certificate, as I've just managed to establish a further two potential generations from Mary Hannah's (Nee Sullivan) side via the IGI!! 8).
Good starting point for further research though!!!
Erm....relatively new to all this, so was just wondering how confident you'd be, given the facts etc that we/you've found that this is the correct line??? Think I absolutely must verfiy the Hannah surname as regards Elizabeth...
Paul
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Paul,
You have to be 100% convinced that the family in 1891,where Elizabeth is 61 and daughter Sarah(Mrs Manion) is 25.......is the same one as in 1871 where Elizabeth is 41 and Sarah is 5,living at 2 Bakehouse Lane.
So far so good ;)
But are we certain that it is also the same Elizabeth in 1861,where she appears to be 23 or 28 with hubby William 24 and son William T or J age just 1 month. And if so is she the same Elizabeth who in 1851 is 25 and living with her baby son John and her sister 28 year old Catherine(Mrs Richardson)
It doesn't seem to add up does it,and yet there are no other Elizabeth Alexanders that fit.
What a shame that none of us can find her in 1881.......we need an 1881 crimewatch appeal methinks ;D
Is Sarah's 1866 birth cert the only one you have?
Perhaps it's a good idea to get 1863 John's one too,to see what mothers maiden name that gives.
Hopefully Liz will be popping in to this thread later today.......she's SO good at summarising things ;)
All the best
Carol
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Wow!
I knew we'd get somewhere if Carol got on to the job!!!
I have only read this through quick, so my mind is buzzing, and I cant quite manage a famous Lizdb summary yet (thanks for the compliment, Carol), but I am still trying to get my mind round why Sarah's birth cert clearly says mum was formely 'Jude' when we have concluded she was a Hannah.
Will read again (and again) and see if I have any thoughts!
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Congratulations Carol - very well done!
But it does point up the difficulties of helping with a query when all the information is not provided. As lizdb said to Paul earlier:
a full transcript of the census details you have would be helpful
Lucky that Carol has access to the censuses and was willing to spend time looking them up!
I take it that, in the 1851, Elizabeth's relationship to the HoH wasn't given?
Paul, when I referred to a transcription error, I wasn't so much thinking that the registrar interpreted some other name (HANNAH as it turns out) as JUDE - rather that his eyes jumped a line and he copied something from the entry above or below!
Carol, as you say, proof is needed that each Elizabeth is one and the same, that her maiden name was HANNAH, and the name of her father (for following her up in 1841). Could be expensive! Say:
* marriage cert of William ALEXANDER & Elizabeth HANNAH in 1849 - would give name and occupation of father, and witnesses' names might also be helpful.
* birth cert of John ALEXANDER b 1850 - for maiden name of mother
* birth cert of William ALEXANDER b 1861 - for maiden name of mother
* and perhaps also birth cert of John ALEXANDER b ca 1864 - again for maiden name of mother.
I'm just checking out Elizabeth b Cumberland in Lancashire in the 1881 census on FamilySearch - but, of course, she might not be in Lancashire ...
JAP
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JAP
In 1851 Elizabeth is a visitor in the household of Joseph and Catherine Richardson......but it struck me that although they are living in Liverpool the girls were both born in Cumberland.
A quick check of Joseph and Catherine's marriage on Free BMD gave me a maiden name of Hannah.So then I looked for a William Alexanders marriage to an Elizabeth and blow me she's also a Hannah.....same 1/4 too ;)
I wonder if the later kids aren't his at all,and she's hiding a diferent man some where, seems a big gap between 1851 and baby John to the 1871 John age 8 and Sarah age 5.
Something is bugging me with this one. But don't know what ???
Carol
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Just preparing my summary - but i think JAP has covered most of it - well done. Some good points raised here, esp about confirming all this with certs. Yes, expensive, but very necessary - else what is the point of doing any of it in the first place? If you just going haring off on a track but actually it is a completely wrong track, then it is all a complete waste of time. Better to take it slowly, and spend a bit (no one ever said genealogy was cheap), but then have the satisfaction of knowing that the end product is the real thing, and that all apparent discrepancies have been sorted, proved, etc.
Sorry - got a bit carried away.
Right - summary:
Parents John and Mary Hannah
1824 Christening of Elizabeth Hannah in Whitehaven, Cumberland. Has sister Catherine, brother John.
1841 Elizabeth age 15 in Whitehaven
1849 Elizabeth Hannah ,marries William Alexander in Liverpool. Double wedding with sister Catherine who marries Richardson
1851 Elizabeth age 25 at Woolfe Str Liverpool with sister. Parents live next door. Has 9 mth old son John . William away - a mariner
All looking good so far. Have we found birth of baby John? Have we looked for William (his boat may be in another port rather than at sea)
Now it gets dodgy
1861 Elizabeth age 18,23 or 28, with husband William age 24, a painter, and baby William Thomas
William was born 1861 and dies as a baby.
Questions: Eliz should be 35, but may have lost a few years. William cannot in reality be 24, if he was married to her with a baby 10 years earlier. The key is to prove this is the same family as on 1851, and on the face of it looks at the least,doubtful and in all honesy highly improbable. But that does not daunt us!!. What address are they at? What address is Catherine Richardson at? What address are John and Mary Hannah at? or have they died? If so, did they leave wills which mentioned their daughter Elizabeth? also have we found death of the first baby, John?
1863 Son John born
1866 Daughter Sarah born (birth cert says mums maiden name Jude)
1866-71 William dies
1871 Elizabeth should now be 45. She is found age 41, with John and Sarah.
what is this address?
1881 - disappeared
1891 Should be 65. Age 61 with Sarah who is now Mrs Manion
Have we found William's death?
Conclusion:
Get marriage cert of William and Elizabeth, to see what it says about ages. Try and establish Williams age, was he really 34 in 1861, not 24? MArriage cert should give his dad's name, lets hope it is something unusual.
We need something that links the pre 1861 Elizabeth (thatis the one that is nee Hannah and marries a Mariner) to the post 1861 one (that is the one that married a painter who was young, and appears to have a maiden name Jude)
Going back to my original comment in my first post, these APPEAR to be two completely different people. But, like Carol, I have a hunch they may not be!
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Wow Liz 8)
See I told you she was good at summarising ;D
This is all getting too complicated and without certs I think we're stuffed for now.
Off to do some housework and watch the rain !
Carol
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Hi Carol,
'Visitor', I've often found to be related though the relationship isn't shown.
I guess the big gaps might be because she had no luck with her children i.e. there were children who were born and died between censuses.
I'm afraid I've given up looking for Elizabeth in 1881 - I did look at a lot of them but ... She might well have been re-married, or have been living with someone and taken his name - and might well have thoroughly misrepresented her age!
The Keswick birthplace is a bit strange ...
I did find Catherine (HANNAH) RICHARDSON in the 1881 for what it's worth - in Bootle with her daughter.
Mary Elizabeth MCKENZIE, Head, U(!), 26, b Liverpool, Annuitant
Catherine Agnes MCKENZIE, Daughter, 3, b Bootle
Catherine RICHARDSON, Mother, (no marital status given - there's the death of a Joseph Hayton P RICHARDSON, age 50, Q3 1875, W Derby), 58, b Whitehaven, CUL
Joseph William RICHARDSON, Brother, U, 21, b Liverpool, Stone Mason
Thomas Pollard RICHARDSON, Brother, 10, b Liverpool, Scholar
and 4 ANDERTONs, the eldest born in Whitehaven.
Joseph William's christening at St Peter, Liverpool is in the IGI - there are a few at St Peter with father with that wonderful name of Joseph Heaton/Hayton Pollard RICHARDSON.
Sorry Paul - but, as I said a couple of posts ago "Could be expensive!" :'(
JAP
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1881? :-\ age all wrong though
1881 RG11/3608 Folio 37 Page 27 ("Eliscander")
2 Cow Lane, Dale Street, Liverpool
Elizabeth Eliscander wid 42 Laundress Cumberland
Sarah dau 16 Liverpool
John son 19 Light Porter Liverpool
Elihu Pearson uncle widr 72 Servant man gen lab Cumberland
Elizabeth Hampton boarder wid 55 Seamstress Liverpool
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Cat,this is looking very good.
You can imagine her giving the enumerator her name in her Cumbrian accent and him with his Liverpool one
Elizabeth is spelt without the E,for anyone looking them up.
Now to check back on who on earth Elihu Pearson was ::)
Carol
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Well in 1871 hes married to a Mary, living in Clare Street, Liverpool, born West Newton Cumberland
and from IGI -
Marriage - Elihu Pearson and Mary Ostle 15th june 1835 Cathedral, Manchester
son Thomas born to Eliha and Mary Pearson , chr. 30/10/1836
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1871 RG10/3790 Folio 149 Page 9
59 Clare Street, Islington, Liverpool
Elihu Pearson 59 Porter Keswick Cumberland
Mary 66 Moorhouse Cumberland
+ lodgers William L Coxhue? (44 Printer Compositor) and Thomas Helsby? (38 marr Blacksmith)
so from same place as Elizabeth..... what was her mums maiden name, cant remember if you found that out :-\
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Married name Mary Hannah....we think ;D
Have found him in 1861 but can't see either of them in 51...am now trying 1841.
We'll have this solved by the time Paul gets home from work 8)
Carol
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Brilliant work CatOne!
I certainly wouldn't have found her in 1881 on FamilySearch with my searches for an Elizabeth b Cumberland in Lancashire - I tried 1825 +/- 10. She's really understated her age!! And I also tried searching for Sarah b 1866 +/- 2 Liverpool - but there were far too many.
They are the only ELISCANDERs anywhere on FamilySearch.
JAP
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This doesn't help with the 'Jude' aspect, but in 1858 a William Alexander married Elizabeth Pearson at St Peter, Liverpool.
From;
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriages.html
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You are all doing so well here, I am really enjoying it. Several times I have begun to join in with my twopenny worth but then stopped because I was really adding nothing to the brilliant efforts.
Here is Elihu though in 1841:
HO107; Piece 520; Enumeration District: 22; Folio: 46; Page: 10
Transcribed as Elinor
Blucher Street (?) West Derby
Elihu Pearson 25 yrs coachman not born in county
Mary 25 yrs not born in county
Thomas 5 yrs born in county
perhaps a diversion we don't need - but I feel good that I am contributing at last ;)
good wishes
heywood
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It would be nice to find out who he is in relation to the Alexander/Hannah families, so we know for sure that its the correct family in 1881, and also I've often found that "going off on a tangent" sometimes finds "missing" family from the lines I'm looking for. :)
I wondered if he was the husband of one of her parents siblings, but haven't found any connection so far, maybe its on her late husbands side..... :-\
These could be her parents -
John Hannah and Mary Sullivan m.22/06/1822 Holy Trinity, Whitehaven
and going on their ages on the censuses, their christenings?
John Hannah chr. 12/10/1800 St James, Whitehaven, Parents - John and Elizabeth
Mary Sullivan b. 17/09/1802 chr. 13/10/1802 Saint James, Whitehaven, Parents - Daniel and Margaret
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I think that Paul mentioned Mary SULLIVAN as the possible wife of John HANNAH - and tracing her back to the next generation.
John HANNAH & Mary's children at Holy Trinity include two sons named John (1823 and 1824) and then the next son is Daniel 1831.
But I guess it's a big jump to this family without ensuring that all the gaps have been filled in!
All Hallows, Whitehaven:
John HANNAH m Mary SULLIVAN 1822
A John HANNAH & a Mary had:
John bap 1823
Elizabeth
Catherine
John - all three bap 1824
Margaret bap 1827
Sarah
Daniel - both bap 1831
Margaret bap 1832
William bap 1834
Mary bap 1837
JAP
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Those children are on the 1841 census with John and Mary, (the ones found earlier transcribed as "Hannay"), children Daniel and Margaret/John and Elizabeth (first children named after husbands parents, next ones named after wifes parents?) so a good clue?
1841 HO107/178 Folio 5 Page 4
St Bees, Whitehaven
John "Hannay" 40 Carpenter
John 17
Mary 38
Mary 4
Margaret 8
Sarah 10
Daniel 12
Elizabeth 15
All born in county
Could do with some certificates to confirm :-\
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Why would Elizabeth consistently have Keswick as pob - if she was born Whitehaven?
Additionally Willia, the painter has Manchester as pob.
Just musing. ;)
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Don't forget guys and gals that we haven't made any links between the 1891 Elizabeth Alexander and the 1851 one yet.......and therefore all this speculation about her being a Hannah/Hannay may be completely wrong.
I think it is up to Paul to get some certs now and come back to us when he has done so. The poor chap must be at work and hasn't seen any of this yet,he'll probably need the whole evening to make sense(if ever he does ;)) of it all.
Carol
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lots of reading for him- suffice it to say that I have just found an Elizabeth Pearson born Keswick 1831 - you can imagine my feelings when I saw she hd a brother Judah- I have just traced him to Liverpool 1861. :o
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Just about to post about that family, Heywood !
They are in Keswick in 1841 (parish of Crossthwaite). Parents Thomas and Mary. Elizabeth still with them in 1851 but not in 1861.
I was trying to work out a reason for Elizabeth to give her brother's name as her maiden name - but that seems hopeless. As their mother Mary was born at Loweswater the 1828 IGI (but only member submitted) marriage of Thomas Pearson and Mary Lancaster at Loweswater looks likely. So perhaps not Elizabeth's mother's maiden name.
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No I don't think it either- it is biblical I suppose - as is Elihu but it's not enough of a connection.
It does I think though throw some doubt on everything.
Much earlier on I was going to suggest that perhaps William the Mariner gave it up to be a painter but that now seems so long ago when that was one of my first thoughts!
Jude/ Hannah/Pearson - you couldn't say that you would mix any of them up!
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In case, certificates prove the Hannah/y connection - I've just noticed the 1851 census entry for John and Mary Hannah has a widowed mother in law Margt McMichael living with them!
and from IGI -
Margaret Sullivan and James Michael 27/06/1830 Whitehaven
? Danl Sullivan and Margaret Wilkinson 17/08/1800 Holy Trinity Whitehaven
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Hello???
Have I been in a coma or something????? :o
How many posts??!!!!! I need to sit down and read through all of these!!! Seriously, thanks for all of your help everyone. The investigative abilities of the members of this site are quite amazing, and I feel I'm learning research methods just by looking at the way you all 'think outside the box' so to speak! I had no idea this line would get so interesting!!!
As suggested, I think I need to get my head round all the facts, buy some certificates to verify key dates and relationships etc.
Yes, I did stumble across the Sullivan connection last night, but as has been said, until I can establish a solid connection, I'll not bother looking much further...
Paul
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Well, after all that - brilliant work, everyone - it looks as though there are two different Elizabeth ALEXANDERs!
1. Elizabeth HANNAH, b ca 1824 Whitehaven, daughter of John HANNAH & Mary SULLIVAN, who married William J ALEXANDER, a mariner, in 1849, Toxteth Park, St John the Baptist. And is in the 1851 census with her 9 month old son John, a Visitor in the household of her sister Catherine (HANNAH) RICHARDSON. I wonder what happened to this Elizabeth?
2. Elizabeth PEARSON, b ca 1830 Keswick, daughter of Thomas PEARSON & Mary, still with her parents in 1851, who married William ALEXANDER, a painter, in 1858, Liverpool St Peter. And is in the 1861 census with husband and 1 month old son William; in the 1871 census widowed with children John 8 and Sarah 5; in the 1881 census a widow with John 19, Sarah 16, and Uncle Elihu PEARSON; in the 1891 census with her daughter Sarah MANION.
That explains a) the different occupations of the 1851 husband and the 1861 husband, b) the age (24) of the 1861 husband, c) the apparent long gap without children between 1851 and 1861, and d) the Keswick birthplace of the later Elizabeth cf the apparent (from IGI and her sister's birthplace) birthplace of Whitehaven of the 1851 Elizabeth.
JAP
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Elizabeth (PEARSON) ALEXANDER's family.
Thomas PEARSON m Mary LANCASTER, 26 Apr 1828, Loweswater, Cumberland (LDS submission).
A Thomas PEARSON & a Mary had - all Crosthwaite which includes Keswick:
Sarah bap 1828
Elizabeth bap 1830
John bap 1832
Judah bap 1833
Mary bap 1835
Thomas bap 1838
Ann bap 1841 (6 Jun)
John bap 1841 (23 Jun)
Robert bap 1843
Frances bap 1846
Jane bap 1848
Elizabeth PEARSON's baptism date fits well with her age on most records - 1861 28 (lowered a little because she had married a younger man?), 1871 41, 1881 42! (perhaps Uncle Elihu filled in the schedule! - couldn't spell ALEXANDER, couldn't even spell Elizabeth, and couldn't remember his niece's age!), 1891 61, 1893 (death) 63.
From that Lancashire marriage site mentioned earlier, a Judah PEARSON married a Hannah WHARTON 1857, Liverpool All Saints. A Judah PEARSON & a Hannah had a Joseph b 1859 and a James b 1861, both bap Liverpool St Peter.
JAP
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Well done JAP, I think you have got it!
Everything now ties up - apart from ONE thing - why does Sarah's birth cert say mums maiden name 'Jude'!!
I guess it will be the best idea to get her older brother, John's birth cert and see what that says, plus marraige cert of Eliz Pearson to William Alexander to see if that mentions Jude at all.
but - well done. There were 2 different people after all, the 1851 and earlier one (Hannah, married mariner ets) and the 1861onwards one (married Painter, widowed young,had John and Sarah!)
I think the turning point in solving this was finding Uncle Elihu - so extra gold star for Heywood!
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Morning,
Thanks again to everyone for their help!
I'd best get ordering some certificates to validate everything! Think Sarah's brother's birth certificate is a starting point, along with the marriage certificate.
It's going to take me ages digesting all the info contained within this thread!!!
I'll let you all know how I get on!!!! Best get back to work!!!
Regards
Paul
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Work???? Nah!!!
Rootschat every time!!!
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Good point! ;D
Paul
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Well done Jap.
I knew there was more to this than met the eye.
Never THAT happy with both Elizabeth's being the same girl.
I wonder if we'll EVER get to the bottom of the Jude surname?
Maybe as someone suggested,an error by a registrar,after a long day.
Hope yours at work isn't Paul ;D
Carol
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Sadly, it's looking like today will be a long day!! :'(
The usual story...late night!!
Roll on the weekend!
Cheers for the help again. Shall let you know how I get on with the certificates etc!
Paul
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Congratulations to everyone on this thread!
There were some mind-blowing discoveries.
I just sat back, commented, didn't do any worthwhile lookups, and then leapt in at the end!
When I read the thread again this morning (my time) three things jumped out at me:
a) CatOne's incredible find of the family (with Uncle Elihu PEARSON) under ELICSANDER in 1881
b) CatOne's post of Uncle Elihu in 1871 showing his birthplace as Keswick (that Keswick birthplace for Elizabeth in 1861, 1871 and 1891 had niggled at me - as I once mentioned)
But I feel that I still wouldn't have twigged without:
c) Gallium's mention of the 1858 marriage of a William ALEXANDER & an Elizabeth PEARSON - that was what made the light go on!
However, I'm now wondering whether we do have the correct family for Elizabeth PEARSON ...
Elizabeth PEARSON bap 1830, parents Thomas PEARSON & Mary (probably LANCASTER), Crosthwaite probably is the right one - and date is perfect for 1871 and 1891 censuses, and 1893 death.
But ...
There is another possible Elizabeth PEARSON just a couple of years earlier - Elizabeth PEARSON bap 1829, parents Joseph PEARSON & Anne, Crosthwaite.
Same parents had (also Crosthwaite) John bap 1827 and Joseph bap 1831.
Those parents might well be Joseph PEARSON and Ann VICKERS, marriage, 3 Aug 1826, Crosthwaite.
JAP
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Well done again everyone! I'm waiting with much hope now that we will have some answers soon from more certificates.
I, at the moment, (although as has been demonstrated by all this hard work we have to have an open mind) favour the Judah brother connection simply because he too arrived in Liverpool. I know when you look at census data - lots of people did migrate from Cumberland so again could be just coincidence and Uncle Elihu could be uncle to both Elizabeths. It's a pity he isn't in IGI other than his marriage.
cheers everybody,
heywood
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we must be mad- I thought 'I'll just have another look - just in case' and 1841 saw Elizabeth Ida in the indexes. Mmmm- Ida/ Jude - possibility - checked on her - mother and children are shown as /do- transcribed as 'Ida'. There you are ;D
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More details? ;D
-
Just when I thought we'd reached a conclusion of sorts...!!!
Had a look at the 1841 Census, and from what I can read, it looks like their surname is 'Benn' ??
This is the family:
High street Thomas Benn 49 Master Mariner ?
Agnes / do 48
Catherine do 15 ?
Elizabeth do 13
James ? do 11
On IGI...
Thomas Benn
Birth: 10 MAR 1791
Christening: 12 MAR 1791 Egremont, Cumberland, England
Marriage: There are three....none to an Agnes though. Thomas Benn and....
ANN SITTLINTON Marriage: 15 NOV 1814 Drigg, Cumberland, England
SARAH NETTY Marriage: 27 MAR 1815 Crosscanonby, Cumberland, England
MARY FISHER Marriage: 18 MAY 1824 Saint James, Whitehaven, Cumberland, England
Not too sure about this lot.
-
Paul,
that's the 'Ida' family - / ditto from Benn- please, please don't go there - I posted it for a bit of a laugh to show how dedicated/ daft we are ;D
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Oh! ::)
Will take a closer look at the Alexander/Pearson stuff!!!
Paul
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I'm just trying to check if there is an IGI entry for the Alexander/Pearson marriage- but there isn't :(
I was thinking you could nip to the library after work and look it up in Parish records. Looks like we'll have to wait for the certificate.
It's not easy is it tracing ancestors! But it keeps us out of trouble and off the streets. ;D
-
Get in!!!!! ;D
Found it on Lancashire BMD website!
1858 William Alexander/Elizabeth Pearson St. Peters, Liverpool
A trip to the Record Office is on the cards I think!
You're right; it's not easy! But it's sound when you sort something out isn't it?!
Paul
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Yep, and here it is on Free BMD...
June 1858 Pearson Elizabeth/Alexander William Liverpool Vol 8b Page 6
Paul
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heywood, I must be losing my sense of humour ::) I hadn't realized that you were saying that '/do' had been transcribed as 'IDA'!! Ancestry again? I know that there are heaps of people on Ancestry with the surname DO (!) but that takes the cake.
Paul, Gallium actually found the 1858 William ALEXANDER/Elizabeth PEARSON marriage back on page 3 (response #38) as follows:
This doesn't help with the 'Jude' aspect, but in 1858 a William Alexander married Elizabeth Pearson at St Peter, Liverpool.
From;
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriages.html
That's why I said (re there being two Elizabeth ALEXANDERs):
... I feel that I still wouldn't have twigged without:
c) Gallium's mention of the 1858 marriage of a William ALEXANDER & an Elizabeth PEARSON - that was what made the light go on! ...
Incidentally, as the marriage, and the births of John (4 Oct 1862) and Sarah (7 Feb 1866) were all in Liverpool, it seems very likely that the death of William ALEXANDER would also have been in Liverpool The only possibility on FreeBMD seems to be:
ALEXANDER William, death, Q1, 1865, Liverpool, Vol 8b, Page 93.
Regards,
JAP
PS: It will be great to learn what's on the marriage cert - ages of the parties, names and occupations of fathers, and names of witnesses.
-
But Sarah b Feb 1866 is Paul's great grandma and it's her birth cert that started all this ;D
It doesn't say anything about her dad being deceased(even up to a year before her birth LOL) on the cert. 8)
Somehow I don't think that 1865 one can be the right one.
Carol
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Carol,
Sorry :-[ Obviously I wasn't thinking!
Unless .... :o
FreeBMD indicates that its coverage of Deaths 1865-1871 inclusive is approx 100% (not quite in Q2 1865 - which would, I guess, be a possibility).
There certainly aren't many William ALEXANDER deaths on FreeBMD in Lancashire Q2 1865 to Q2 1871 inc.
Q2 1865
William - Bolton
William Albert - Manchester
Q4 1865
Charles William - W.Derby
Q3 1868
William (61) - Lancaster
Q1 1869
John William (0) - W.Derby
William Thomas (0) - Liverpool
Q4 1870
William (80) - W. Derby
Perhaps it's simply not on FreeBMD, or he didn't die in Lancashire, or it's under some creative spelling, or ...
JAP
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remembered the wedding had been found on BMD but it was the church we needed so ... Paul get to the library a.s.a.p. and look it up in St Peter's parish records.
Hopefully there will be both fathers' names for us to check and let's hope they picked their witnesses well. ::)
JAP- sorry if my typing didn't explain the fantastic transcription - just loved the name IDA ;D
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Evening,
Had a look at the William Alexander deaths on Lancashire BMD. It can't be the William from 1865...he was 2 years old. In any event, age aside, going on the quarters between his death in 1865 and Sarah's birth in 1866, it exceeds 9 months, so, it really, really, really can't be him!! :D
However....I shall get along to the record office Monday/Tuesday. The fact that it says St. Peters - Liverpool, leads me to think it's the St. Peters that was in Church St. There are another two you see...
St. Peters, Seel Street and St. Peters, Everton. So, might have to search the lot!!!!!
Watch this space....!!!!!! :)
Paul
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Regarding the 1865 death....
Yeah, yeah....I know, we've already laughed at that one!!! Just ignore me! ::)
Paul
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After looking at rootschat for a good while now you could believe anything of our ancestors - very short pregnancies - marriage within weeks of birth and even very long pregnancies perhaps!
we will certainly watch this space - good luck for next week.
Kath
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Okay.
Will let you know what I find!! Have good weekends all...
Paul
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Hi heywood, IDA has to be as incredible an Ancestry transcription as there has been - I think you should post it on one of those Ancestry errors threads so everyone can enjoy it (not just those reading this thread). Incidentally, I think we're all getting a bit confused by this complex thread ;D You wrote:
remembered the wedding had been found on BMD but it was the church we needed so...
Gallium mentioned the church in her original post about the 1858 marriage, and I repeated it in my 'two different Elizabeth ALEXANDERs' post.
Paul,
St Peter, Seel St was a Roman Catholic church. So you can count that out.
Everton St Peter is specified as Everton St Peter (not Liverpool St Peter) on the Lancashire BMD site so you can count that out too.
The reason we can't find the marriage in the IGI is that St Peter (Church St) marriages for the period aren't on the online IGI! (The IGI only has St Peter marriages 1709-1828 and 1840-1841.)
Looking forward to hearing more.
JAP
PS: Just for completeness, the 2yo William ALEXANDER on the Lancashire BMD site is not the WA who died in Q1 in Liverpool - it's a WA who died in Q2 in Bolton. It seems that deaths in Liverpool (and lots of other places) are not yet covered by the Lancashire BMD site.
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Have put it on the 'Lighter side'.
Let's hope that Paul can get some results next week at the library.
have a good weekend
Kath
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Morning All,
Cheers for the clarification on the different St. Peters JAP. Actually, the Roman Catholic St. Peters on Seel Street was converted into a trendy pub/bar a couple of years ago, after years of dereliction. They've retained the bulk of it's character ie. Alter etc with candles everywhere. A really interesting building, steeped in history...where better to have a pint!
Spent last night compiling a list of records to view, so itching to get there now!!! Yes, there are no deaths on that Lancashire BMD for Liverpool as yet. Shame, as that's a really good method for being able to search the church records as opposed to shelling out £7 for certificates!
Am going to view the 1858 Alexander/Pearson wedding, and the christenings of both Sarah and John. Hopefully, between them, there should be some decent information!
I sat down last night and thoroughly read every bit of info. You're right JAP...it is quite a complex thread!!!! Good stuff.
Paul
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Afternoon All,
Well, I went along to the record office this afternoon to take a look at some of these records. didn't have long, but managed to find, and take a copy of the 1858 St. Peters Church, Liverpool Alexander/Pearson marriage.
It's looking good. Just need to go back to get copies of the baptism records for Sarah, John and William Thomas.
The marriage record contained the following:
When Married Name/Surname Age Cond Rank/Prof Residence Fathers Name/Surname Rank
4th April 1858 William Alexander Full Bachelor Painter Northampton St John Alexander Gilder
Elizabeth Pearson Full Spinster - Northampton St Thomas Pearson Wool Sorter ?
Just checked, and the 1841 Census return for the Pearson family, with the brother called Judah has Thomas working as what appears to be 'Wool Shearer'. ;D
Paul
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Well done for acting so quickly Paul and relieving some of our misery at least. I have also been interested in this because my grandfather was a John Alexander (not this family) so it adds to this. (His grandfather - also John- caused me years of searching and still am not sure but that's another story).
cheers
Kath
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Was itching to find out! ;D
I think this marriage is most likely the correct one, given the closeness timewise to the birth of William Thomas Alexander, and the fact that he's a painter. Ideally, I could do with finding some way of linking Elihu Pearson to Thomas Pearson.
Unfortunately, the marriage witnesses did not appear to be close relatives.
Mind you, surely it's enough that I can link Sarah to both William and Elizabeth via her birth certificate. ???
Oh well, the search further back goes on..... :D
Paul
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Unfortunately, the marriage witnesses did not appear to be close relatives.
Paul,
Come on-you can't hold back now ;D Tell us their names,we'll find a link ;D ;D ;D
No seriously,never discard marriage witnesses,you never know when they might turn up as relllies later in your search.
Carol
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Hi Carol !!
Okay then....here goes!
John Robinson and Mary Miller (or Millen) ??
Just done a search on IGI for a marriage of Mary Pearson (Elizabeth's young sister) who'd be approx 17 in 1858 but couldn't find anything!!! ::)
Paul
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From IGI:
possible marriage for older sister Sarah (bn c 1828)
8 Jan 1851 to John Whinneray, her father Thomas, in Crossthwaite. Extracted entry.
So - unfortunately she wasnt a witness.
-
iGI only has 2 references to an Elihu Pearson.
First is of no use - submitted entry of a birth "about 1734" Southampton Suffolk. Well, for starters Southampton is not in, or anywhere near, Suffolk.
Second is an extracted entry. Marriage 15 Jun 1835 to a Mary Ostle, at Manchetser Cathedral!
If 'our' Elihu was a 72 yr old widower in 1881, then the dates fit in enough for this to possibly be him.
but I dont know that it helps link the Elizabeth Pearson situation to a nee Jude birth cert! Or confirms the right marriage, or anything else we are looking for!
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Wonder if Elihu left a will. Or indeed Elizabeth's alleged dad Thomas Pearson (I dont mean 'alleged' in that I am accusing Mrs Pearson of being indiscreet, I mean aleged in that there are 2 Eliz Pearsons and we dont know for definite that ours is the daughter of Thomas and Mary rather than joseph and Ann)
Though, thinknig about it, you have confirmed that the Eliz who married the painter, WAS the daughter of Thomas the Woool sorter. so I guess that one is sorted after all )along with the wool!)
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Morning, ;D
Well, the Elihu Pearson in 1891 is a 72 year old widow, who has his neice Elizabeth 'Eliscander' and her two children John and Sarah living with him.
Although, I think I'm taking this off on a tangent here!! ;D
Paul
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I think there were probably several more PEARSONs around in Crosthwaite - unrecorded!
lizdb mentions the marriage of a Sarah, father Thomas - possible sister of Elizabeth (PEARSON) ALEXANDER, daughter of Thomas the wool shearer/sorter.
I noticed that marriage earlier today when I checked out the Crosthwaite marriage batch. I won't go back and look at the dates again but - as well as marriage(s) with father Thomas - there were also marriage(s) around that time with father Judah (who would have been a generation earlier that Elizabeth's brother Judah), with father William, and with father Robert. Perhaps Thomas, Judah, William and Robert might well all have been brothers - and Elihu perhaps another brother. We also know there was a Joseph who married in 1826 in Crosthwaite so perhaps he's yet another brother? And perhaps births/baptisms for none of these appear in the IGI.
Just a possibility.
JAP
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OK, I will go back!
Crosthwaite marriage batch M003011 (1562-1858)
PEARSON marriages with father's name recorded in the relevant time period (there are also some PEARSON marriages with no father's name recorded).
Father Judah PEARSON
Robert m Mary VICKERS 1840
Father Robert PEARSON
Mary m Edward MARTIN 1844
Father Thomas PEARSON
Sarah m John WHINNERAY 1851
Father William PEARSON
Sarah m Joseph BELL 1838
Daniel m Dinah WIGHTMAN 1847
Ann (24) m Thomas RAVEN (26) 1857
JAP
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If only one of us had a whole day to spend at the appropiate Record Office for Crosswaite and surrounding parishes, piecing together Pearsons........ but it would take me a whole day just to get there, being a 'southerner'!
-
1871 RG10/3790 Folio 149 Page 9
59 Clare Street, Islington, Liverpool
Elihu Pearson 59 Porter Keswick Cumberland
Mary 66 Moorhouse Cumberland
+ lodgers William L Coxhue? (44 Printer Compositor) and Thomas Helsby? (38 marr Blacksmith)
But don't think we had him in 1861 yet? So here he is....
RG9/2694 folio 35 page 8
59 Clare Street,Islington, Liverpool
Elihu Pearson head 52 general porter b Cumberland West Newton
Mary Pearson wife 57 b Moorhouse Cumberland
I see someone found him in 1841.....can't recall who though? Sorry :-[
Can we find him in 1851- to complete the set and see if any other family member is lodging with them.
All the best
Carol
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Great Minds think alike!
I was at that very moment finding Elihu with wife Mary in the 1861/71 indexes and was about to post to ask anyone with full access to look him up!!!!!!!
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What a team we are....even if I should be cooking dinner ;)
Can't see them in 51 though..if anyone else wants to try.
Carol
1841 courtesy of Heywood ;)
Here is Elihu though in 1841:
HO107; Piece 520; Enumeration District: 22; Folio: 46; Page: 10
Transcribed as Elinor
Blucher Street (?) West Derby
Elihu Pearson 25 yrs coachman not born in county
Mary 25 yrs not born in county
Thomas 5 yrs born in county
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1851 HO107; Piece: 2185; Folio: 310; Page: 49
49 Clare Street
Elihu Pearson 38 yrs coachman b Lancashire Newton
Mary 39 yrs b Braugh
Thomas 14 yrs b Lancashire Manchester
Elihu is definitely written but transcribed as John :-\
1861 he is on Clare Street and born West Newton Cumberland and Braugh is perhaps meant to be Brough, Cumberland
-
Brilliant stuff Heywood- you're good at this ;)
No wonder my searches for every feasible spelling of Elihu weren't paying off.
Now does that lead us anywhere..............Hmmm.........NO 8)
Carol
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I wonder what became of young Thomas, cos when Elihu is widowed he goes to live with niece Elizabeth, not son Thomas. Maybe that was because she was widowed too, so they looked after each other.
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no maybe not- but we could have a day out in the Lakes!
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there are a few Thomas Pearson marriages and deaths 1851-1861- who knows - he may have gone off to seek his fortune elsewhere or perhaps Sarah was the only one with enough space for Elihu to live.
We have gathered lots of information none of which solves the original query but does give Paul some more ancestry.
.. even though families are starving and neglected due to their loved ones' preoccupation with other people's families. ;D
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Evening! :D
Thanks for all the info on Elihu and his family. I shall have a good look through all of that stuff.
Planning on a return trip to the record office to try and find Sarah's siblings baptism records. Have the references for them, just a case of sifting through it all!
Incidentally, I noticed the conversation about the parish records for Crosthwaite and the obvious logistical issues (It'd even be a hike from here in Liverpool, nevermind for you 'Southerners'!). :P
However, I was on the FamilySearch (LDS) website the other day, and noticed that they have a vast quantity of English Parish/Church/Burial records on microfilm. As I understand it, you can request that copies of these records be transferred over to your nearest Family History Centre for viewing.
Have I got this right? If so...no travelling required! ;D Although, saying that, it would be nice to visit the places our ancestors walked! I'll give them a call to verify this I think.
Mind you I do that every day! My G,G,G Grandfather lived in housing that was on the site of the Liverpool entrance to the Mersey Tunnel. Pass it every day!
Cheers
Paul
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Hi Paul,
yes just go along to the local LDS Family History centre- there's bound to be one in Liverpool - armed with your film reference numbers if possible- although in my experience there's always someone to help you and order them. You order them for about a month so you can pop in (might well have to book) and do it over a few sessions- to save the old eyes! It's not much money.
good night
Kath
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googling brings a few references up- they are held in Carlisle - now there's a trek for you - this site http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WES/Crosthwaite/index.htm tells you a bit about it
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Hi Kath,
Thanks for that link. There's a Family History Centre about a mile from mine actually. Went there the other week for the first time to search their microfilm of the Irish BMD.
Erm, on the Family Search website...how do you use those batch numbers? Just tried entering one, along with relevant search terms...nothing! ??? Is that how they're meant to be used?!
Paul
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no - I think you have to go into the library part (on the site) and search for the place and it tells you what is available. I'm only thinking this though. Just had a look to make sure- the library page has a catalogue tab and you can do it there.
-
Cheers, will take a look then. :)
Good night
Paul
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... Erm, on the Family Search website...how do you use those batch numbers? Just tried entering one, along with relevant search terms...nothing! ??? Is that how they're meant to be used?!
Hi Paul,
Are you asking how to search within a batch? Go to the IGI and enter the batch number (e.g. M003011) and select British Isles as the region. If you then click on search, the entire batch will appear page by page.
However, if you wish, you can refine the parameters e.g. by entering names or just surnames or just given names, or by entering a particular date or time period, etc.
If this is what you were asking and you are still having trouble, tell us what you did that didn't work ...
To find out the batch numbers for a particular parish, go the following site:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm
JAP
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Cheers JAP, that's great.
It worked. Right...off to search for these people!!!! ;D
Regards
Paul
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Oh ..... so the 'Pablo's gang' holiday in the Lakes has been cancelled......
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Ha ha! ;D
Went to the record office again after work tonight to try and get hold of the baptism records for Sarah and both her brother and sister. Didn't manage to find them though! They're they're I'm certain just wasn't looking properly!!!
Still, managed to get both Sarah's (and another relative's marriage certificate) via the parish records!! 8) Saving me a fortune on shelling out for GRO Certificates!
Oh well, I'll keep you all informed if I find out any more regarding this 'Jude/Pearson' issue via parish records. If not...will have to order the birth certs via the GRO! Mind you, what will that achieve? They'll state that her maiden name is Pearson, presumably
Paul
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it seems a safe bet that they will- perhaps as she gave her name in to the registrar, she was thinking, 'I must tell our Jude (her nickname for her beloved brother) ...' and the registrar only heard one word!
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I like that, heywood :)
Getting the certificates, if they do say mums maiden name Pearson, will confirm we are thinking along the right line.
If however, they say Jude, it will indicate we have gone off in the completely wrong direction, and that somewhere there is a third Elizabeth ALexander, who was nee Jude (to go with the one nee Hannah, and the one nee Pearson, both of whom seem like old friends now)
Did Sarah's marraige (presumably to Manion) add any gems? Witness wasnt a Pearson was it? Or a Jude?
-
Hi,
Unfortunately not, the witnesses were her mum Elizabeth, and a Thomas Evans.
However, I do know if one of the certs did say Jude...my head would be completely mashed!!! Back to square one!! ;D
I agree Liz, Heywood's scenario isn't out of the realms of possibility!
Paul
*Edit* Sorry...yes, the marriage I refer to was indeed the 1890 marriage between Sarah Alexander and Henry Manion. The facts for this generation have been confirmed by my mum's two aunties. :D
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hi pablo
i noticed heywood mentioned brough. there is brough that used to be in westmoreland now cumbria and burgh by sands nr carlisle pronounced brough if you go to www.visitcumbria.co.uk you will be able to see pictures of said places ps you will all have to pay a visit to the lake district as someone who lives here we dont appreciate it like you would
regards bingo
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Cheers bingorudd
It's nice to be able to put these places we've been talking about in context! :)
Oh...it would appear the website ends with '.com' as opposed to 'co.uk' :D
Thanks again!
Paul
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Evening! ;D
Right, have been to the record office a few times now, and the other day, managed to find Sarah's baptism record.
Parents: William and Elizabeth Alexander
Father's Occupation: Painter
Residence: Finch St.
Also date of birth ties in with the birth cert. Good stuff. Really just need to order William Thomas' birth certificate from the GRO...and pray that it has Elizabeth's maiden name as being 'Pearson'!!
If so, all sorted pretty much!
Paul
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well done - keep the good news coming.
-
I recently found this thread and would like to refer the first few posts where the are references to a "journeyman painter" This term comes from the french journee and means paid by the day. It means simply that he has completed an apprenticeship and is now employed as a painter as distinct from working for himself. It has nothing to do with travelling around.
David
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thanks for that David- I never knew. I always think of a song my dad used to like, "I am a roving journey man, I go from town to town"
I have seen quite a few references to journeymen and always imagined them wandering.
best wishes
heywood
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Yes, thanks for that David.
So, he was self-employed in effect. That info should help in narrowing down the search for his death certificate etc.
Just paid on a daily basis, as opposed to self employed...having one of those days again! :D
Regards
Paul
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The main distinction is between journeyman and master. Where a master was frequently but not always the employer and could have journeymen and apprentices working for him. It is a term still used in some trades today for someone who has completed his apprenticeship but not yet established himself or gained enough experience to be termed a master of the trade.
The payment by the day was historic but shows that the terms of employment were a lot less secure than for a master. I am not suggesting that you wouldn't find a journeyman working on his own as it was always a statement of status as much as anything.
David
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Eveing All, :)
Just started to have another quick look at this line of my family tree again tonight, although admittedly, I haven't yet got round to obtaining the birth certs of either William Thomas Alexander or John Alexander yet...been spending my money on certs for other branches of the tree!! ::)
However....just decided to take a quick, fresh look at it tonight, as and found the following, possibly interesting stuff:
Assuming the Alexander/Pearson link is okay, given other matching evidence I've accumulated so far, I was looking for census data on Elizabeth's father Thomas Pearson.
...and found a Jude Pearson on Familysearch in the process...the child of a Robert and Frances Pearson,born in 1778, christened i n Bromfield (a sub-area of Crosthwaite)!! ;D
Now, I know this DoB is even some 27 years before the 1806/7 birth of Elizabeth's father Thomas, but I wonder if this might be a relation of Elizabeth's father perhaps???
The area is correct, as I've located Thomas, his wife Mary, and a couple of their younger children on the 1861 England Census, still up in Cumberland, where Thomas is stated as being from Bromfield. (EDIT: and a Weaver by trade, although earlier Census returns have him as a Loomer, and one as a Wool Sorter or Shearer)
Hmm, Coincidence???? Any thoughts? :) ???
I really must get round to buying one/both of those certificates!!!
Paul
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I really must get round to buying one/both of those certificates!!!
Paul
Yes Paul - you really must ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Will give your current musings more thought tomorrow,when hopefully I'll be more awake ;)
Carol
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....And.....
I've just noticed that Elizabeth also had a younger sister called Frances (b. 1846 in Crosthwaite, to Thomas and Mary Pearson - IGI).
Named after her Great Grandmother perhaps?? ??? :D A guess I know, but a semi-educated one at that, as she appears again on the 1851 England census aged 5 along with a 20year old Elizabeth and other numerous siblings!...
William Colson 26 Lodger
David Crowden 22 Lodger
E Pearson 20 Daughter
F Pearson 5 Daughter
John Pearson 18 Son
Judah Pearson 17 Son
L Pearson 2 Daughter
M Pearson 45 Wife
M Pearson 9 Daughter
T Pearson 13 Son
Thomas Pearson 44 Head
Actually, the Ancestry transcription appears to have gone a bit pear-shaped (EDIT:When compared against the census image) as regards the sex of the children, however, what with Judah being clearly visible I'm not too concerned!
Paul
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Evening All ;D ;D
I finally did it....I finally ordered the birth certificate of William and Elizabeth's firstborn William Thomas Alexander, who was born in 1861, and died as a baby.
Excellent news....it states that the mother was 'Elizabeth Alexander, formerly Pearson' ;D ;D
So that's it....the verification needed to connect the Alexander name to the Pearson surname. Mystery solved, and I can now progress back with some confidence!!
I'd just like to thank all of those who spent lots of time puzzling over this interesting line for me, especially Carol, Lizdb, JAP, Heywood, CatOne and Gallium for their key discoveries etc!!!
Many thanks...! :)
Paul
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Excellent news....it states that the mother was 'Elizabeth Alexander, formerly Pearson' ;D ;D
I'd just like to thank all of those who spent lots of time puzzling over this interesting line for me, especially Carol, Lizdb, JAP, Heywood, CatOne and Gallium for their key discoveries etc!!!
Excellent news indeed Paul......what a team we are ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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what good news! well done and best wishes to all :D :D
heywood
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Hi Heywood, Carol! ;D
Carol....I'm on a mission to progress this line in light of the certificate...and set out to find more on the elusive uncle Elihu, given that we could not find a birth entry for him in IGI.
I noticed on the 1851 census, you've put in an amended name of John against Elihu. Where did that come from? It still looks like Elihu to me. ??? :)
Paul
EDIT: Ignore me!!! ::) Just realised that you amended it to Elihu from John! Duh. ;D ;D
If only there was a birth entry for Elihu. I could always order the microfilm from my local FHC for the Loweswater and surrounding areas.
Yes, Think that's the way forward... :)
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Good News Paul! Will have to see what else we can find for Elihu now, if anything! Has he been found on all the censuses? Lost track with this thread getting so long, could do with a summary :)
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Hi CatOne,
Yes, he is on all census returns from 1851 to 1881, all in Liverpool as I recall. I will refresh myeslf on his info etc and post it. We had a marriage at Manchester Cathedral of Eliha Pearson and Mary Ostle too. Ciouldn't locate a death from memory...
I be back later!! :)
Paul
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Right, a summary... :)
Well, we've established the link between Elizabeth Alexander and her maiden name Pearson via her firstborn's birth certificate.
We're confident that Elizabeth's parents were Thomas Pearson and Mary Lancaster (both from the Loweswater area), from census returns, although I really should order the parish records from the LDS (Note to self!). However, there are number of Thomas Pearsons within that area, at around that time.
It was CatOne who discovered the Elizabeth Eliscander census return where she was living with widowed uncle Elihu Pearson.
So, I was aiming to establish both Thomas' and Elihu's parents though Elihu, given the unusual name; only there's no birth for him on IGI. There are a number of male Pearsons who seem to share the same parents, so might be brothers - but we can't link Elihu into it, thus linking Thomas!!
Elihu's movements were as follows:
1835:ELIHU PEARSON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 15 JUN 1835 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
1836 Birth of son Thomas Pearson, Eliha and Mary Pearson, christened on 30/10/1836 Cathedral,
Manchester, Lancashire, England
1841 HO107; Piece 520; Enumeration District: 22; Folio: 46; Page: 10
Transcribed as Elinor
Blucher Street (?) West Derby
Elihu Pearson 25 yrs coachman not born in county
Mary 25 yrs not born in county
Thomas 5 yrs born in county
1851 HO107; Piece: 2185; Folio: 310; Page: 49
Elihu Pearson (Transcribed incorrectly as John) 38 yrs, Coachman, Newton, Lancashire, England
Mary 39 yrs, Braugh (Brough? - Area of Cumberland)
Thomas 14 yrs, Manchester, Lancashire, England
1861 RG9; Piece: 2694; Folio: 35; Page: 8
59 Clare Street, Islington, Liverpool
Elihu Pearson 52 yrs General Porter, West Newton, Cumberland, England
Mary 57 yrs, Moorhouse, Cumberland, England
1871 RG10/3790 Folio 149 Page 9
59 Clare Street, Islington, Liverpool
Elihu Pearson 59 Porter Keswick Cumberland
Mary 66 Moorhouse Cumberland
+ lodgers William L Coxhue? (44 Printer Compositor) and Thomas Helsby? (38 marr Blacksmith)
1881 RG11/3608 Folio 37 Page 27
2 Cow Lane, Dale Street, Liverpool
Elizabeth Eliscander wid 42 Laundress Cumberland
Sarah dau 16 Liverpool
John son 19 Light Porter Liverpool
Elihu Pearson uncle widr 72 Servant man gen lab Cumberland
Elizabeth Hampton boarder wid 55 Seamstress Liverpool
Think that's about it! No sign of a death as yet...
Regards
Paul :)
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Pearson family, with the brother called Judah has Thomas working as what appears to be 'Wool Shearer'.
1841 says Woolen Weaver J (Journeyman)
1851 says Hand Loom Weaver
1861 says Weaver
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Death?
"Elew" Pearson September 1882 Liverpool Vol 8b Page 68 age 72
(Typed not hand written)
Regards
Catherine
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You're amazing CatOne! :) :)
I'd missed that completely!
EDIT: Cheers Geoff !! :)
Paul
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Thanks Paul, just typed in Pearson b1809 +/- 1 year, died Liverpool 1886 +/- 5 years. (a tip you can use in your future searches) That one stood out, I imagine thats how Elihu sounded when they told the registrar his name (ifs its proved to be the right one of course)
Just thinking, parents sometimes ended up staying with children/grandchildren in their later years, have Thomas and Mary, and children, been found on all censuses?
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Well, Elihu was living with his niece Elizabeth in 1881, a year before his death, so it's likely that Elizabeth, or her son or daughter(John or Sarah) would have been the informant.
I'll check for Thomas and Mary. I recall finding a death for a Mary Pearson in Cockermouth, after 1861 I think. Will check!
Paul
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Hmm,
there are loads of deaths for both Thomas and Mary Pearsons in the Cockermouth/Crossthwaite areas for after 1861 (Last Census on which I can find them both together).
Can't seem to locate either of them on any subsequent census either together or alone, so, I'd say it's likely that they both died in this period.
Should be fun trying to identify which is the correct entry though!!! :) :o
Shall see if I can locate the whereabouts of any of their children though...
Paul
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You could always email the records office to ask them to look for Elihu and Thomas Pearson christenings. Never dealt with Cumberland office though, so not sure how good they are, Cheshire one was very good a few years ago.
(Just checked out the Cumbria Office and theres an online historical research form you can complete online)
Good Luck
Catherine :)
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Thomas PEARSON m Mary LANCASTER, 26 Apr 1828, Loweswater, Cumberland (LDS submission).
There's something relevant that's been missed -
Baptism 26 April 1828 Loweswater
Adult christening: Thomas PEARSON, son of Judah PEARSON and Sarah.
This is the only baptism of one of their kids in the IGI - perhaps they didn't have them done.
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http://members.madasafish.com/~cgrs/HC-index.htm#P
Is this Judah and Sarah's marriage then (IGI)?
Judah Pearson and Sarah Wallace 01st December 1804 Holme Cultram, Cumberland
Grooms age - 27
Wife's age - 28
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Hi :)
Wow this is interesting. Cheers Geoff for drawing our attention to the matching dates of the marriage and adult baptism.
So, it's possible that Thomas and Elihu were never christened, however, Thomas decided to be christened on his wedding day. Well, perhaps 'decided' is the wrong term...had to be christened in order to be married in the church?
So...if wonder if there's an adult christening out there linked to Elihhu's 1835 marriage at Manchester Cathedral.....
Paul
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http://members.madasafish.com/~cgrs/HC-index.htm#P
Is this Judah and Sarah's marriage then (IGI)?
Judah Pearson and Sarah Wallace 01st December 1801 Holme Cultram, Cumberland
Grooms age - 27
Wife's age - 28
I'd have thought so. Jude was bap 1778 Bromfield (same place as Thomas was born). Just a few miles away.
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Thanks again Geoff/Catherine!
So, Elizabeth's grandfather (Thomas' father) was Jude Pearson!
I wonder how that name ended up on the certificate?!!!! :)
Paul
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Wow! ;D
An absolute load of stuff has resulted from the findings of today.
Subject to verification by viewing the original records on microfilm, I think I've established the following:
Firstly, Thomas Pearson's parents were Judah Pearson and Sarah Wallace. So, Elizabeth's brother Judah was named after his father, and her sister Frances, after her great grandmother Frances Brown.
Judah's parents were Robert Pearson and Frances Brown (I'd found them, but forgotten a few pages back!), and Sarah's parents were Alexander Wallace and Mary (?).
Geoff, I notice though you listed the Pearson/Wallace marriage as happening in 1801. I can only find one in 1804. Strange, as Sarah's stated age of 28 on the 1801 marriage ties in with the Sarah Wallace born in 1774 to Alexander and Mary Wallace ??? Was this just a mis-type?
Paul :)
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yes, 1804, sorry ::) (its on familysearch IGI)
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Ha ha. She must have fibbed about her age a little then, to bring it closer to Judah's. :)
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Wow! ;D
An absolute load of stuff has resulted from the findings of today.
Paul :)
See Paul,we told you to get the cert didn't we ;D ;D ;D
Carol