RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: emarbe on Tuesday 31 July 07 19:12 BST (UK)
-
One for the Dumfriesshire experts.
My gggrandfather was born at Brae in Johnstone and his ggrandfather was born in Smallrigg. Would these names have applied to the farms or to the areas?.
Mike
-
Hi Mike,
Do you ahve any more info on either? Brae and especially Smallrigg are very common names even for properties in Dumfriesshire. I will have a look at my old maps tomorrow for you (I have left them at work of all places).
Smallrigg rings bells with me - think I have been there. Are both in the Parish of Johnstone?
Regards,
Jak
-
Smallrigg is a farm in Lochmaben. You can see the occupants by checking the 1851 census, online. I just typed in smallrigg in the address box.
Surnames are: Family of John Richardson, Murray, Henderson, Graham, Coupland, Broatch Black and Armstrong.
Brae seems to be an add-on to a name, e.g. Sunnybrae, Cleuchbrae.
Jamjar
-
Hi Kojak
Thank you for replying. The name Brae is in Johnstone Parish or Johnstone by Lockerbie as it states on the children's birth records. I have a copy of the father, David's, will and it says "farmer in Brae in the Parish of Johnstone", from that I would think it's the name of the village, but I'm not sure.
The only information I have on Smallrigg is that David's father, Walter, was born at Smallrigg, Dumfries, but on his children's birth records it says Johnstone Parish, I suppose he could have moved after he married, but I have no idea where he was married.
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Mike
-
Mike,
I can't seem to see where you have given a Surname for the family you are researching.
Also, can you provide a time frame.
I'm off to the Dumfries library today and can check census' births etc. if you are talking 1800s.
Jamjar
-
Hi Mike
Yep, you're right the Dinwoodie's were on Brae in Johnstone in 1851. There are Davids and Walter, William, Agnes', George, Janet, Samuel.
Head of Household was David aged 60, born Johnstone, a farmer of 135 acres. Wife Agnes aged 54, born Lochmaben
All children born in Johnstone.
Jamjar
-
Hi Jamjar
Thanks for your interest.
Walter Dinwoodie was born abt 1757 at Smallrigg and died 1828, but I don't know where. He married Margaret Halliday and I have found 6 children, James, Mary, Walter, David, Samuel and Janet. I didn't bother checking the 1851 census for Smallrigg as I knew the parents wouldn't be alive.
David Dinwoodie was born in 1784 (Johnstone Parish) and married Agnes Carruthers in 1817 at Lochmaben, I have all eleven of their children in age order: Walter, Jane, George, Margaret, Mary, James, Samuel, David, Agnes, Walter Matthew and Janet.
I know from David's Will of 1860 (he died in 1869) that he seemed to have quite a lot of property in different areas and bequeathed a house to his wife in Lochmaben, but she died before him in 1865.
I have all of the information from the 1851 census for this family, but it was kind of you to offer a lookup.
I know nothing of the Dumfries area, or whether places like Brae and Smallrigg still exist, so it would be interesting to know what these names referred to.
If you have access to the birth records, I would be interested if you could find Mary Ann Jamieson, born abt 1845 in Johnstone.
Many thanks
Mike
-
Hi Mike,
My maps don't indicate a brae farm at all...On the census returns, what other property names are written for adjoining/neighbouring properties?
There are a few Smallriggs in the area. There could well have been one in Johnstone Parish in teh 19th Century, but there doesnt appear to be one now. Maybe the old Smallrigg property has gone, or changed its name (there still remains properties called sunnyrig,greyrig, skenrigg, beastockrig,martinwhatrig, kilnpot rig etc)
Again, what other properties are listed on the official 1851/1861 census return? If we could locate a neighbouring property, it would be easier to locate your Smallrig/brae.
Of course, and as Jamjar says, the Smallrig could be the Lochmaben one, in which case, photos etc can be obtained.
Let me know if you can narrow down the hunt.
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk have the appropriate censuses to track.
Regards,
Jak :-)
-
Hello all
Found Brae in Johnstone parish at NY. 067895 -a couple of miles NNW of Templand. It appears to be a farm. It can be found also on www.streetmap.co.uk Find Templand and work up from that.
Templand is a couple of miles N of Lochmaben. There is a Smallrigg in Lochmaben parish - as Jamjar said. I cannot find one in Johnstone. Brae and Smallrigg, Lochmaben are about 5.5 miles apart.
Regards
Reiver
-
Hi Kojak & Reiver
Thanks very much for the information, it seems they were both farms and the Smallrigg in Lochmaben also looks the right one as Walter Dinwoodie's wife, Margaret Halliday was born in Lochmaben and they were married there.
I am much obliged.
Mike
-
Good work Reiver,
Mike - If Smallrigg, Lochmaben is the right one this website should interest you http://www.smallrigg.co.uk/
Also, I shall endeavour to get some photos of the brae for you some time soon (the above website has pics of Smallrigg)
Jak
:-)
-
Hi Kojak
Many thanks for the link, it's nice to see where my ancestors lived all those years ago ( I am sure Smallrigg, Lochmaben is the right place based on where his wife was born and they were married) and I would certainly like one of Brae if possible as that would bring it into the 19th c.
Many thanks
Mike
-
Hi Mike,
Two up to date maps for you of Brae Farm and Smallrigg.
Jak.
-
I meant to say the Brae Farmhouse is a Category B Listed building.
See Historic Scotland wbiste for listing info at
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/wwd_listedbuildings_results.htm?Keywords=brae&Council=170&Parish=0&CallBack=TRUE&submit.x=45&submit.y=5
Jak.
-
Hi Kojak
Thanks for the maps.
I never considered that one of the farmhouses might be listed, consequently never looked on that site, thanks for the link.
Incidentally are any of your Telfers (Telfords) from Gretna?.
Mike
-
Hi Mike,
It's always something worthwhile checking out.
I shall get my hands on the listed building info tomorrow hopefully for you.
Photos to follow in coming days.
I dont have any knowledge of any link with any Telfords, but if I do, I'll let you know.
Jak.
-
Hi Mike,
I have 3 things I will scan and send to your email address is you don't have them already.
One is the headstone inscriptions from the cemetery at Johhstone. They are of David and Agnes' family. There are 3 plots.
The '41 census listing all at Brae
A newspaper article - 1872 - of Walter running over a child with his gig.
Found a Marianne Jamieson born 13 October - Lochmaben - William Jamieson and Jane Dinwoodie
No record of Walter, or Margaret Halliday in any of the inscription books. It could just mean that their headstone was unreadable. I did find info on him renting 2 farms in 1813. He had Kerse of Kinnel and Brae which were part of an estate at Annandale.
Jamjar
-
Great research work Jamjar.
Some day Im sure to run into you in the Ewart...
Jak:-)
-
Hi Jamjar
It never ceases to amaze me that there are so many people on RootsChat who will go out of their way for someone else, thank you very much.
The original and digital versions of the 1841 census I already have and there should be 13 people listed, the one next to last, William Bryden, is my gggrandfather.
What has really amazed me is that you found Marianne (Mary Ann) Jamieson's birth, was the year 1845 by any chance?. She doesn't appear on any other census until 1881 in Cumberland (age 36) where she is working at a hotel, but by 1891 she's gone, possibly married and moved on.
Apart from the 1841 census, I will really appreciate it if you would send me the other items, I will PM you my e-mail address.
I wonder if you (and any others) can work your magic with this problem which I just cannot solve:
William Bryden was born 18 October 1839 at Brae. Monica Leslie did a superb job of finding his birth under the name Brydane. The parents are given as John Brydane and Jane Dinwoodie (she was a busy girl), but I have had no luck finding the father.
I know from William's marriage certificate and various documents that the surname is definately Bryden and he gives his father's occupation as Ironmonger, this was in 1865, William moved to England after the 1851 census.
I have no idea how old John would have been in 1839, but assumed a similar age to Jane and managed to find one instance, born in 1818 in Johnstone, father William. mother Grizel Thorburn. I found his mother on the 1841 census, but no John and he doesn't appear on any other, unless he moved away. This could of course be one of those instances where he can never be found.
Again, many thanks.
Mike
-
Silly me! ::)
Marianne was born in 1844.
May I suggest that you add the surnames you are looking for, to the initial subject line. You'll get more looking at it. I'd put Dinwoodie and Bryden on it.
Yes, I am amazed at the help I have had, also. I think we do it, as it's all a challenge. Also, we know the excitement we feel when we find a member of our own family, so we can relate to how others feel.
Scans on the way in a mo.
Jamjar
-
I'm a little confused with the Bryden.
You say William moved to England after the 1851 census. I can't find him on the '51 census. He'd be 11, yes?
There is a William Bryden aged 22 who is an ironmonger, on the '51 census. As occupations often run in the family, there could be a connection to John.
Was Jane D. married to John?
When was Jane D. born?
Jamjar
-
Just to let you know that I am not ignoring the posting from Jamjar, I have been in contact via e-mail.
Mike
-
Hi Mike,
Please see attached images of the Brae.
Regards,
Jak :D
-
Hi Kojak
Very many thanks for the photos, I appreciate your trouble.
Mike
-
Three of David and Agnes's children married into the Johnstones of Garrel, Kirkmichael. James ( a farmer) married Jane Johnstone, David (a grocer) married Elizabeth Park Johnstone while Agnes married John Johnstone and remarried after his death while another child Margaret Dinwoodie married Herbert Renwick of Lochwood who was the Johnstone's uncle. My interest is through the second youngest Johnstone who was my great grandmother. After Herbert Renwick died at Lochwood in 1881, several of the above were with Margaret at Lochwood although the 1881 census does not specify all relationships - but Jane Dinwoodie (Johnstone) was there along with Agnes Johnstone (Dinwoodie) and Margaret Telford who was Margaret's niece probably the daughter of sister Jane. Elizabeth Park Dinwoodie died at Brae in 1912 and her death was reported by her son George