RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: philipsearching on Monday 06 August 07 02:45 BST (UK)
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I am trying to get hold of a birth certificate to find out the mother's maiden name. All the information I have is from the 1880 Boston Massachussetts census:
parents - William and Elizabeth Cordner
daughter Mary born 1867 Pennsylvania
daughter Kathleen born 1869 Michigan
daughter Ethel born 1878 Massachussetts
Can anyone advise me how to proceed. I have looked through the "useful links" section but can't find anything to help.
Philip
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Had a quick look for Michigan birth as that might be the easiest. Good news is that State registration of births started 1867. However, some pre-1906 births not filed with State but may be available from County Clerk.
Any idea where in Michigan they lived? Where they there in 1870 census?
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Many thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, the only information I have is as quoted from the 1880 census - I have not found the family on any other census or tracked down any registered births.
Philip
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Bit of a puzzle this one. Checked Mass. Vital records 1841-1910 and no Cordner births (possibly under another spelling?) and only a few deaths but index does not list names of parents.
Went to 1880 census where you located the family in Boston and LDS site has Mary born c1867 in LA (Louisiana not Pennsylvania)- have you seen PA somewhere else?
There are also lots of other chuldren listed. Do you have any idea where in Canada they would have been living when Alice was born?
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1891 Census- England (Middlesex): Kathleen Cordner born c1869 U.S.
1900 Census- New York: Auckland B. Cordner born c1862 Ireland
Ellis Island- Auckland B. Cordner:
1895 (age 32) publisher on "Lucania"
1903 (age 43y 9m), Insurance, U.S. citizen "Campania" with wife Bernice
1904 (age 42) Insurance manager "Etruria" with wife Bernice
1909 (age 49) on "Lucania"
1891 Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Whoops - I had a "mad moment" and typed Pennsylvania instead of Louisiana for Mary's birthplace. A family myth put her birth in Luzern, Pennsylvania but there is no proof of this.
Many thanks for the information on Auckland. This family moved about so much that it's difficult to pin them down. Without a birth certificate I can't track mother Elizabeth's maiden name.
Mary was my great grandmother - she married John Henry James and returned settled in England.
Children not born in USA were Edwin (c1861 England), Auckland (c1863 Ireland), Alice (c1865 Canada). I can't find Edwin on FreeBMD and I wouldn't know where to begin hunting in Ireland or Canada.
This is my second most troublesome brick wall and I would love to crack it open!
Philip
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Checked some Louisiana records for Mary's birth but date is a bit early.
What about William & Elizabeth's marriage? that should give her maiden name.
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I don't know where, when or if William and Elizabeth were married, so I can't track Elizabeth's maiden name that way.
A fellow Rootschatter has found on the 1891 England census:
Alice Cordner born c1865 Montreal, Canada
Kathleen Cordner born c1869 St Louis USA
Pauline Cordner born c1876 Boston, USA
This gives me some hope that by knowing the birth cities I have a better chance of finding the births registered.
The hunt goes on!
Philip
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Now I see the problem. I checked Michigan for Kathleen's birth (and found nothing) but St. Louis is probably the one in Missouri! They certainly moved around!!!
And who is Pauline born c1876 Boston (1891 census)? What happened to Ethel born c1878 Mass. (1880 Census)?
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Missouri records to search on-line:
www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/birthdeath/
need to check other counties besides just St. Louis/St. Louis city.
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Just to jump in here for a minute. I too have been looking at this family and found that there is a Pauline Dorothy Cordner, b. 1900 England, who is returning with Auckland and Bernice, in 1904, I believe. She is located further down the passenger list.
Also found an article in The NY Times; dated August 10, 1898:
A.B. Cordner Arrested
He is charged with Forgery in Connecticut to the Extent of $3000.
New London, Conn., Aug. 9--Auckland B. Cordner of St. Louis was to-day arrested by Connecticut officers on a warrant charging forgery to the extent of $3000. He was locked up, and will be held until requisition papers are received from Missouri. Mr. and Mrs. Cordner arrived here early in Jun., and have occupied Actor James O'Neill's cottage, Monte Cristo. They at once gained entree to New London swell Summer society, and entertained most lavishly.
The specific charge entered in the complaint was using the name of United States Judge Elmer B. Adams of the Eastern District of Missouri.
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That's a great find. Wonder if there's a link between Kathleen Cordner supposedly born in St. Louis (Missouri?) and what seems to be her brother using the name of a Judge from Missouri?
1909 was the last time I found Auckland Cordner on Ellis Island site but unfortunately that page came up blank when I tried to view the original manifest.
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The 1909 passenger list just says the he is a "broker" and that he is returning home (New York).
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Hello, Sorry if I butt in - however, the charges filed against the gent appear to be in a US federal court (Eastern district of Missouri) - They would have records of his indictment and possible conviction. Pat
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In the 1920 census, "Aucland" is in New Rochelle, Westchester, New York, still an insurance agent (working on own account). With him are his wife, Berniece, and children: Paula B, 20 b. England, immig 1903, and Sandys(son), 13, b. England, immig 1909. It seems strange that each child was born in England by a woman living in New York who was born in Minnesota. Could these children be adopted from one of Auckland's sisters? In the Free BMD website, it has Alice's marriage to William Henry James. She is listed as the following: Alice Vernon S Cordner, Alice Vernon Sandys-Cordner. Seem like Sandys, the son, may be related to her. In 1910, Auckland and Bernice have been married 19 years and only have 1 child, born in England, to show for it. Where is Sandys? Is he still with his birth mother in England?
In 1930, Bernice is still living in New Rochelle and is listed as a widow. Therefore, the possibility of getting a death certificate for Auckland, is highly probable. He has to die between 1920 and 1930, most probably in New Rochelle, Westchester, New York. I also found Marriage licenses for both Paula P (1924), and Sandys (1926) in New Rochelle.
A final thought, with Auckland being such an unusual name, I looked for the frequency of it in England and there are a lot of them. Could Elizabeth's maiden name be "Auckland"?
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Hello all, To obtain a copy of the death cert, you might try www.RAOGK (Random Acts of Genealogical Kindness) and see if they have a volunteer for Westchester Co., NY to assist you. Pat
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1930 census- wonder if Auckland is really dead or if he's away somewhere (like gaol?) and Bernice listed herself as widow to explain his absence (know of a few cases where this happened).
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Many thanks to you all for your posts.
Auckland is by no means the first dodgy ancestor in my tree. The Cordner family seem to specialise in running foul of the law (I wonder if that's why they emigrated). Great-aunt Nora Ruth Cordner James (daughter of Mary Cordner) wrote a novel which was banned as being obscene.
I now have a fair amount of information on the descemndants of William Cordner and Elizabeth, but I am still hunting for Elizabeth's maiden name. I tried a phonetic search on FreeBMD for a marriage between Auckland and Cordner, but no luck there.
The search goes on.
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If whoever gives the information on the death certificate knows the names, and it is usually the spouse, the names of the parents should be given. Bernice obviously was in England 2 times, so maybe they visited with Elizabeth. You're more likely to find a death certificate than a birth certificate. The weren't mandatory till after 1900 and they were optional and sporadic prior to that. If you want to check, try writing the clerk of courts or the clerk of the probate court in the county in which the births occurred. You can google to see what records those courts hold. Maybe you'll get lucky.
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The way this family moved around it's hard to know where any of them actually died so a bit difficult to get a death certificate.
See new possible leads on other thread under Montreal birth c1865:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,248718.msg1371207.html#msg1371207 (now closed)
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Except for Auckland who is pinpointed in New Rochelle, Westchester, NY. The girls seem to have returned to England with Elizabeth, and Edwin has never been found. Maybe the 2nd or 3rd marriage of Alice Vernon Sandys James lasted and there is a death certificate for her in England. Auckland's indiscretion occured in 1898, and he seems to have kept his nose clean for 20+ years. I doubt he served any time on this matter as he is enumerated in the 1900 census in Manhattan, not Missouri. He was probably just overzealous in networking his insurance agency.
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If Auckland died while living apart from wife, children, etc. there might not be much useful information on his death certificate.
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I'm sorry I don't understand your reasoning. He (Auckland)
is in the New Rochelle census for 1920 along with wife, Bernice, dau, Paula, and son, Sandys. He has also been with Bernice in the 1900 and 1910 census and according to the census information, he was married abt 1890. In 1920 he has his own insurance agency. In 1930, wife, Bernice is listed as a widow living in New Rochelle, and the children have both obtained a marriage license(1924/1926) in New Rochelle and have moved out. Everything points to Auckland having died between 1920 and 1930 in New Rochelle.
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The story so far (in brief)
Starting with the USA 1880 census:
William Cordner (born c1841 Ireland) married Elizabeth (born c1843 England)
Children were:
Edwin b c1861 England
Aukland b c1863 Ireland
Alice b c1865 Canada
Mary b c1867 Louisiana
Kathleen b c1869 MI (Michigan?, Missouri?)
Ethel b c1878 Massachussetts
1891 England census adds the following information:
Elizabeth S Cordner is a widow, born in Longford, Ireland
Alice was born c1865 Montreal, Canada
Kathleen was born c1869 St Louis, USA
Pauline b c1876 Boston USA
There is no trace of Edwin on FreeBMD
Auckland married Berenice, children were Paula B and Sandys. On the 1930 census Berenice was listed as a widow
Alice Vernon Sandys Cordner married William Henry Trewartha James in England, they had a son Denis(?)
Maria Massereene Cordner married John Henry James in England (my great-grandparents) The marriage certificate gives her father's name as William Thompson Cordner , banker (deceased). Witnessed by Elizabeth Sandys Cordner. I have all the information needed on this line.
Kathleen Cordner - I am not researching
Pauline Cordner - not researching
Ethel Cordner - not researching
FreeBMD has birth of Elizabeth Ann Sandys Jun 1843 Westminster vol 1 p420
21Sep 1860 Aghaderg Co Down William Bell Cordner 20 son of William Cordner married Eliza Aldwell Sandys 19 daughter of Bazee Sandys (could you tell me the source for this, Aghadowey? - IGI lists Eliza Aldwell)
I think there is enough evidence to suggest that Elizabeth Cordner's maiden name was Sandys. I am confused by the 1891 census giving her birthplace as Ireland while the 1880 US census states England. Could someone be kind enough to see if Elizabeth appears on the 1901 England census?
This is going amazingly well - the brick wal is being smashed to rubble and the bruises on my head are fading!
Philip
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I didn't see any Elizabeths in 1901 that seemed to match.
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genealiza! You really opened up the door for all this with your sleuthing
and...Paula B? Named after her sister no doubt... and maybe a middle name of Bell?
Births December Q. 1900
Pauline James Hendon vol.3a page 170
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Marriage of William Bell Cordner to Eliza Aldwell Sandys is from BVRI (British Vital Records Index) version 2 which differs slightly from entry in IGI. Eliza' father down as Bazee Sandys but could be a mis-transcription although I can't think what else it could possibly be instead.
Now for a few questions, Philip. I know you said you are not researching Ethel born c1878 Mass. (1880 census) or Pauline born c1876 Boston (1891 census) but are these the same person? Otherwise, where is four or so year old Pauline on 1880 census?
Is Maria Massereene Cordner the same child as Mary (born c1867 Louisiana)?
Kathleen appears in 1880 & 1891 as born c1869. MI is offical abreviation for the state of Michigan and MO for Missouri but thinks it's more likely that Kathleen was born in St. Louis, Missouri than somewhere in Michigan.
If Elizabeth Cordner is not in 1901 English census could she have remarried bet.1891 and 1901?
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well, perhaps it might just be? BASIL SANDYS? This one was
Christenied: August 31 , 1800 Rathkeale, Limerick, Ireland
( whose father's name happens to be EDWIN SANDYS, mother CATHERINE but all may be just coincidence.... )
Deaths Sept. Q 1900
William J Cordner age 48 - Islington vol. 1b page162
aghadowey , you killl me.....
could you come and do my searches for me? ;D J.J.
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Oh, yes, and forgot ( re/: Eliz. born Ire or Eng.?) to add that sometimes people remember where they were raised for Censuses and sometime they remember where they were born....That's something we've all run into...My great grandfather had, if i recall 3 different places from where he hailed...and he was a very smart man...So what comes into the brain at the time is what comes out ;D J.J.
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Hallo, Shelleyesq - many thanks for checking the 1901 census for Elizabeth. I have just checked FreeBMD and found a death for Elizabeth Ann Cordner in Hampstead in 1896 aged 52 which is probably her. I will order it and see what it tells me.
Hallo, Aghadowey
Thanks for the marriage reference
It seems odd that child Ethel appears in 1880 then disappears in 1891 (unless she went to boarding school or was visiting elsewhere) whilePauline appears in 1891 but is not shown in 1880. Pauline does not show up on the FamilySearch index of the USA 1880 census. It is tempting to believe that they are the same person, but this will have to wait until I can prove it.
Mary Cordner is Maria Massereene Cordner. I have been working on the hypothesis that the Cordners came from Belfast / Antrim because a Clement K Cordner living in Antrim was agent for the Massereene estate in 1900 - it seems to be more than just a coincidence.
There is a St Louis in Michigan, but given that the family were well-off and enjoyed social status Missouri does seem more likely. I checked the Missouri births on the link you provided but could't find anything resembling Cordner.
I am wondering if Bazee is a mistranscription of Basil.
Hallo, JJ
Mary Cordner and husband John Henry James settled in England. Three of their children were born in Hampstead (1893-98) and one in Hendon (1905). I don't know how Pauline fits in, but I am sure she must.
I will order the birth certificate for Elizabeth who was born in Westminster 1843 to see if the father's name is Bazee (or anything similar)
and last but not least, hallo Genealisa and Patrexjax - many thanks for your research on Auckland
It's one o'clock in the morning and I'm feeling too excited to sleep!
Philip
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I am wondering if Bazee is a mistranscription of Basil.
Look back a few replies....
Hallo, JJ
Mary Cordner and husband John Henry James settled in England. Three of their children were born in Hampstead (1893-98) and one in Hendon (1905). I don't know how Pauline fits in, but I am sure she must.
They both married a James, remember? Alice and Mary....( both had Henry for middle names, maybe evn brothers?) If They adopted one child, Sandys, perhaps they adopted Pauline as well? age fits....or maybe she just wanted to live with aunt and uncle... Perhaps she did marry a Powell, there are a couple of marriages that could match....and Pauline was not impressed with him...
Ah, conjecture, my middle name ;D
J. conjecture J.
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Oh JJ, you are unstoppable (and marvellous!)
John Henry James and William Henry Trewartha James were either brothers or cousins, there is a choice of two and I haven't yet determined which.
I was writing my last message when you posted yours re Basil - great minds think alike?
My poor tired brain can't cope with the perils of Pauline so I'll try to get some sleep and think about whose child was whose tomorrow (later today!)
Many thanks again
Philip
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Trewartha! Wow, Phillip you are blessed with surname hints! ;D ;)
Had fun, thanks all... J.j.
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Don't know it this will help or just make things worse....
Edwin Moore Sandys, son of Robert, m.30 Apr.1847 St. Anne, Dublin to Fanny Bond, dau. of Thomas.
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Looking up steet names never hurts, as long as you don't go down the wrong avenue...there's clues in there galore...I'm tempted to do more...but haven't time ;D But then you're already hot on the case, eh aghadowey? ;) :D
J.J.
There's this on BMD
Deaths December Q. 1896
Elizabeth Ann Cordner 52
Hampstead District
vol 1a pge. 428
LDS U.S. Social Security Death Index
Sandys Cordner
b.December 9th 1906
Died Jan 1974, Georgia
other Localities, Texas...
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I think I should rename this thread "The Riddle of the Sandys".
Thank you so much for all the information. I have ordered the birth certificate for Elizabeth Ann Sandys (Westminster 1843) and the death certificate for Elizabeth Cordner (Hampstead Dec 1896) to see if they are the same person.
All the best
Philip
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Let us know what they show as it's been really interesting trying to find the family.
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The certificates arrived today. Full of excitement and anticipation I opened the envelopes.......
Elizabeth Ann Sandys born 12.05.1843 Westminster was the daughter of Frederick Robert Sandys and Ann Rose.
Elizabeth Ann Cordner died 28.10.1896 - the informant was brother Thomas Cordner.
Unfortunately, neither certificate looks like it belongs to the Elizabeth Aldwell Sandys (Cordner) I am trying to find. Oh boo, bother and worse words beginning with B.
The search goes on!
Philip
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Sorry, Philip, ..( she couldn't be spotted in 1901, so we thought it might all fit , right?)
perhaps the death in 1909 may be hers then. ::)
Oh, well, something more may come to light yet....Did you order any birth certs as well? J.J.
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Wow, what a great thread. Some amazing research on here. Hard to keep it all straight.
I have been Ancestry-less for about a month now and feel lost, but did have a look on http://www.italiangen.org/default.htm and found a marriage for Sandys Cordner on Sep 2, 1933 to Mearl V. Googins. Hope this will be of help.
Kath
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To sum up- the story so far:
William CORDNER born Ireland c1841 (connection with Antrim)
married Elizabeth born England or Ireland c1843 (maiden name probably SANDYS, father Bazee/Basil)
children (according to 1880 USA census) were:
Edwin born c1861 England (not found on FreeBMD)
Auckland b c1863 Ireland (a naughty boy! Married Berenice, children Paula B and Sandys)
Alice Vernon S born c1865 Canada (married W H Trewartha James)
Mary (Marie Massereene Cordner, born c1867 Louisiana USA (Marie Massereene Cordner)
Kathleen born c1869 Michigan or Missouri
Ethel born c1878 Massachussetts
1891 England census has:
Elizabeth Cordner widow born Ireland - Longford
Alice born c1865 Montreal, Canada
Kathleen born c1869 St Louis, USA
Pauline born c1876 Boston USA
1901 England census - Elizabeth CORDNER not found
A birth certificate for Elizabeth SANDYS born 1843 Westminster is the wrong Elizabeth, no others found on FreeBMD
A death certificate for Elizabeth CORDNER 1896 Hampstead - (brother Thomas Cordner as informant - same surname suggests she was spinster) is the wrong Elizabeth
Marriage certificate for John Henry JAMES and Marie Massereene CORDNER 1889 Kensington has Elizabeth Sandys Cordner as witness. Father William Thompson Cordner is deceased.
Auckland CORDNER's marriage and descendants are traceable.
FreeBMD has a death for Elizabeth CORDNER, Richmond Surrey 1909 aged 65 - certificate just ordered.
FreeBMD does not show a CORDNER/SANDYS marriage in Great Britain.
My descent is through Mary/Marie CORDNER. I need to track down birth certificates for any of her children to confirm her maiden name. Can anyone can point me in the right direction to identify a USA certificate and where to buy it?
I need to find a marriage for William CORDNER and Elizabeth to be absolutely certain her name was SANDYS and to find her father's name.
This is a challenge - many thanks to all the Rootschatters who have helped so far. The search goes on!
Philip
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I am interested in this thread.
Basil Sandys was my 2x.g.grandfather from his second marriage to Catherine Otter in 1855 in Westminster.
Their daughter Sarah born c.1856, my g.grandmother married Herbert Richardson in 1875. They had my grandfather also Herbert, born 1884.
Basil dies in London in 1871, the reg. is under Basil Sands and has his age wrong.The actual cert has had the name amended by the registrar. After this wife Catherine goes awol. I can find no remarriage or death or census entries. Its as if she vanished into thin air. :'(
It was told to me by another Sandys researcher, that Basils first wife was called Catherine Geraghty. I have no idea when this marriage took place.
Also check out this thread as well.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,161020.0.html
:D
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The Basil above and his previous wife had a son Edwin...born abt 1828 middlesex Eng....( according to the 1841 )
IGI extracted Aug.31 1800
Basil Sandys
Rathkeale, Limerick, Ire.
Parents of were Edwin & Catherine...
Submission to LDS site (IGI) file:
Edwin Sandys ( no source )
About 1773 Of, Cloyne Diocese, Cork, Ireland
Marriage: 1798 Cloyne Diocese, Cork
to Catherine Aldwell
wasn't that a name you found with Elizabeth as a middle name?
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JJ
Myself and the other Sandys researcher don't know who this Edwin is. Apparently he was not one of Basils children.
Also I have been unable to find Basil on the 1851 census.
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So you have a list of Basil's children, then? :)
I didn't see relationship category on the census...?
J.J.
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Basil had two children by his first wife.
James born 1847 and the other researchers g.grandfather.
Eliza born about 1843.
As far as I know my g.grandma Sarah was the only child from his second union.
Apparently Basil married Catherine Geraghty in 1837, when he was about 37yrs old, which means he was getting on a bit for a first marriage. Its perfectly possible, I suppose that he could have been married previous to that and the Edwin with him in 1841, is a child of said marriage.
Absolutely no idea :'(
We have explored the Cordner connection a little.
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Check the other posting! (re: name James) ;D J.J.
( If you check, there may have also been a brother Edwin to Basil...so I suppose could have been a nephew...but you have much to prove as well... :P,
fun, huh?)
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Well my other source, and she has sent me loads of wonderful information, told me that Basil had two brothers, William about a year younger and George about six years younger. It seems William didn't have any children and George had about four, but none were called Edwin.
Edwin must be a rellie of some sort.
;D ;D
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IGI has a marriage for Edwin Moore SANDYS, son of Robert, to Fanny BOND 30 Apr 1847 St Anne, Dublin - I don't know if he fits in this line.
This family are a wandering lot.
Edwin was born and married in Cloyne, Co Cork.
Son Basil was baptised in Rathkeale, Co Limerick.
Basil's daughter Eliza(beth) married inj Aghadee, Co Down.
Elizabeth's children were born in England, Ireland, Canada and USA, she later returned to England.
No wonder it's difficult to track them down!
Suffolk*Sue - it's a small world to be sure! Would it be stretching coincidence unbeleivably far to ask if your Herbert RICHARDSON had a relative called Archibald, a tea planter born in Yorkshire around 1880-1910?
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As far as I know, my Herbert hadn't got any relatives called Archibald. I have traced the Richardson line back to a Charles, born about 1800 in Hertfordshire.
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well these 2 deaths might be Sr. and Jr. or Basil's son's
June Q. 1852
Sandys Edwin St Pancras vol 1b page 85
Dec Q. 1863
SANDYS Edwin Marylebone vol 1a page 33_
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I now have the death certificate for Elizabeth Cordner 8 Dec 1909 Barnes, Surrey. Her occupation is given as "widow of William Cordner, president of an American insurance co." Informant was R Scott, son in law. I can't find a marriage to match on FreeBMD but as the family travelled around, the marriage could have taken place anywhere.
I did find a marriage for an Edwin Sandys Cordner in Camberwell in 1898.
Alice Cordner married William Henry James in Lambeth in 1888.
I will hoard my pennies and send off for the certificates to see if they add anything new.
There are now several trails to pursue for the descendants of William Cordner and Elizabeth Sandys, but I have not made any new progress on their forebears.
As ever, many thanks to all who have helped me in this search.
Philip
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1901
TREWARTHA-JAMES
William H. - 39 - mining and metalurgised engineer - born Redruth
Alice S. - 32 - born Montreal
Derrie V. - 11 - born Brixton
Doris V - 7 - born Mexico (British Subject)
plus servants
RG13/125 - Hampstead
Folio 13, Page 17
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Birth
Derric William V T JAMES
1889
Jun qtr
Lambeth
Vol 1d
Page 523
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Many thanks for the JAMES info, Sue. I know that William Henry TREWARTHA JAMES married Alice Vernon Sandys CORDNER. William Henry was the cousin of John Henry JAMES who married Marie Massereene CORDNER, the younger sister of Alice.
I have found on FamilySearch a SANDYS family who moved to Cork from Gloucestershire and I am pursuing this possible link.
All the best
Philip
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Hi Philip
I'll keep adding to this thread if I find any more info, such as census entries.
Couldn't find Elizabeth Cordner who died in 1909, in 1901, maybe she was out of the country at that time.
By the birthplaces of various children, I should think they hardly had time to unpack the suitcases.
;D ;D
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Hello, Philip...how goes the chase? In case you are interested:
W. H. Trewartha-James mentioned as part of the Tin and Tungsten Research
Committee 1918/1919 http://cornovia.org.uk/htexts/tin_and_tungsten.html
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Derric Vernon Trewartha-James...died in WW1
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=527825
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Sue, thanks for searching. This family is tricky to pin down on censuses, but at least I do now have birthplaces for the children and Elizabeth's death certificate.
Many thanks, JJ. I had googled Trewartha James but missed the Commonwealth War Graves link. Another relative to add to my tree roll of honour.
All the best
Philip
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June Q. 1903 ** Thurstan Trewartha James - Kingston vol 2a p. 418
September Q. 1904 * Evelyn Isobel T. James - Kingston vol.2a p.422
December Q. 1908 Margaret Trewartha James - Epsom vol.2a p. ?0
don't have access to the full censuses but just in case the T. is also for Trewartha...
December Q. 1899 Doris Alice T. James - Kingston vol.2a p.353
March Q. 1909 - Fredrick Albert T James - Kingston vol. 2a p.300
There are also several with fourth name initial T. in Wandsworth....
* http://web.onetel.com/~pelhamwest/westfamily/p000000h.htm
descendants of**
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22trewartha+james+%22+family&meta=
http://www.geneall.net/U/per_page.php?id=101288
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Hi philip, SUE and I have been in contact re Basil Sandys I am Basil's gt gt grand daughter and can explain the tree to you. EDWIN sandys born in DUBLIN 1770'S parents Nehemiah Sandys and Elizabeth RYVES of Sandfield Co Roscommon and Dublin.Edwin was the 3rd son and joined the Roscommon Militia. He was a Leiutenant, they were stationed in Cloyne in 1798 and in Rathkeale during 1800- 1801. Basil was christened in Rathkeale in 1800. Basil joined the Customs and Exise and was working in Longford he married there a Catherine Geraghty of Roscommon in 1837 and had 2 children Eliza and James before 1850 Catherine Geraghty died Eliza was sent to England to a reliation named Slaughter and James was reared in Roscommon by Basil's brother William and his wife Bridget Geraghty a sister of Basil's late wife. Eliza married a william Cordner and they appeared to have live in various places in the USA they returned to Ireland in 188? and then to London where Eliza is recorded on the 1891 census she died in London 1909 I think without looking it up> Please let me Know how you are related as I have been trying to contact that side of the family for some years now. these are the sketchy details more later. The Edwin Moore Sandys Is not directly connected Cosmo
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Hi Cosmo = K. :D :D
I think I forgot to add this.
Marriage from BVRI
CORDNER, William Bell Age: 20
Wife: Eliza Aldwell SANDYS Age: 19
Marriage Date: 21 Sep 1860 Recorded in: Aghaderg, Down, Ireland
Collection: Civil Registration
Husband's Father: William CORDNER
Wife's Father: Bazee SANDYS
Source: FHL Film 101413 Dates: 1860 - 1861
apologies if its already been mentioned.
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Cosmo
I found the following on The National Archives site
Basil Sandys. Entry papers for service as an Excise man.
1827
I have got an estimate for copying and hope to order it soon.
:) :)
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Hi Philip,
Mary Cordner-James was my grandmother. I don't know how much you know about her children, and what happened to them, or even if you are interested in that aspect of the family.
My father, Frank Cordner-James, said that his father and his uncle (his fathers brother) married the two sisters. He was very clear on that. The family story went, according to John Henry Cordner-James (he was born James but added his wifes name to his), that he and his brother both liked Mary and Alice very much, so they tossed a coin to see which they would marry, as both were so attractive. Alas, while Alice was out going and liked to go out, as did John, Mary prefered to stay at home more, as did William. Mary had a very lovely singing voice, and the children would sneak out to near the top of the stairs, to listen, on the evenings they entertained, to their mother sing. It is said that if the coin had fallen the other way, the marriages would have been happier!
If this is the kind of info you enjoy, I would be happy to tell you more. However, I am about to go away for a month, and internet access may not be great, or even possible. I will try to check to see if you are interested.
I f Mary was your grandmother, I know of all the children, except Joan's. Are you one of her's?
Wendy, one of Franks!
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First, welcome to Rootschat Wendy. Second, Blimey, how lucky are you Philip. What a great thing to get this reply. Enjoy your new cousin.
Kath
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Hi Philip,
I read your comment about perhaps the Cordner's move around a lot to avoid the consequences of criminal activities, at least that seem to be implied.
Let me reassure you. We have been to Cambridge and many other excellent universities, and have many professionals in our ranks, with out a whiff of dishonesty. Even my Aunt, the one you mentioned, who wrote under the name of Nora C James, was an incredible person, and while have many books of hers (but not yet the banned one) I have been told by those that did read it that it was FAR from obscene she merely made the mistake of being ahead of her time, and let it be known in the book that her heroine had had pre marital sex with her partner.
Did you know that she was very active politically? That she stood up for women's rights? That she flew planes in the war to deliver them to the aerodromes? Her fiance died in the first World War, and she never found someone else.
She wrote fiction and nonfiction, animal stories and cook books, romances and social commentaries. Quite a lady.
As for some of the others ( I wish you were going to Ireland for the October meeting) there were some pretty fine people among them, doing incredible things. The Cordner/James combination has produced mostly very bright, very creative and adventurous people. Of course, like fast cars, if they do come off the road it can be pretty messy! However they are few and far between.
If you do want to know more, and they are worth it, we could do some sharing, as I am pretty sure you are from Joan's line, and both my uncle Philip, and my father were very fond of their little sister. did you ever meet Joan Marie, from Malaysia? A Saint, with a great sense of humor, and great courage. Did you know the stories about what Wild Bill Hitchcock's show lead to? The spy? The merchant service Captain, the rancher, the writer, lawyer, the astrophysicist, the archaeologist, the head of design and technology serving several major Canadian banks... you see what I mean. We may be travelers, and some are hard up at times, but they are honest.
Give us a chance. We would love to hear from you!
Wendy
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Wendy,
I just checked Philip's profile and he hasn't been on in a while. I would try sending him a personal message if I were you. Maybe he just hasn't gotten any notification of the reply you made. And if he doesn't want your family, I'll take them. ;D ;DThey sound fascinating.
Kath
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Wendy,
I just checked Philip's profile and he hasn't been on in a while. I would try sending him a personal message if I were you. Maybe he just hasn't gotten any notification of the reply you made. And if he doesn't want your family, I'll take them. ;D ;DThey sound fascinating.
Kath
ditto...what a terrific found rellie ;D ( Ditto Kath's welcome as well...!)
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Thank you!
It seems that the only person not to have read it is Philip.
What I have found so helpful on Roots, is people like you, Kath, SW and Cosmo to mention a few, who jump in with help when all seems at an end in ones search.
I am so new at this, so let me say to all of you from all of us newbies THANK YOU!
Wendy
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Wendy,
That is the great thing about Rootschat. I've posted requests for something and literally within minutes had great people jumping in with a response.
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Hallo, all
I've been kept very busy at work this year and have had to time to do any research.
Wendy - I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Cordners were generally a bad lot, - just that two of them had troubles with the law. If there is a black sheep in the family it would have been in my direct line, or so the family legends would have it. I have read Nora's banned book and I would not consider it obscene by today's standards - it offended the morality of the time.
Cosmo, - many thanks for the info on Nehemia and Elizabeth, - I didn't know about them.
My great grandparents were Marie Massereene Cordner and John Henry James, a mining engineer originally from Redruth, Cornwall. Marie died in either 1933 or 1940 in Hendon. I am aware of five children: John D, Philip, Norah Ruth, Frank C and Joan Margot.
Joan Margot James (1905-1970) had two children, one I think is alive, the other (illegitimate?) was my late father Jeremy Robin Raymond William Richardson (1929-1973). As my parents separated when I was 4 and I only saw my father about 6 or 7 times after that, I know very little about the family apart from paper records.
My mother claims that my father told her that John Henry, who was quite wealthy, became fed up with his wife's alcoholism, left her to move in with his mistress and left the mistress all his money and property in his will. It might be true, but I believe that my father did have quite an imagination!
I love to hear family stories which make the names on the certificates come to life again. I am sad that I know so little about my father's family.
I'll try to make time to get back to regular Rootschatting once the workload eases off.
All the best
Philip
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Great to read your response Philip.
For most of August I can only get spasmodic emails in or out, as I am in the back of beyond.
Marie had the children you mention, and Michael William P Cordner b 1903, he died in B.C. in the late eighties. He and his wife,'Peggy' were both recovering alcoholics, I am told, and were unable to have children. They adopted a boy and a girl, I have never met them. There is a Tim Cordner on Vancouver Island who knew , or knew of , him. Tim is Frank Cordner,s grandson, a fine young man and a father of two pretty grown up kids. So if you want more information about Mike, as I will soon myself I could give you Tim's contact number. Mike was rather good on the piano, and that is an understatement.
Philip and Frank both told me that their family held together pretty well until Denise died. He was adored by the whole family, and the parents were just so different that they could not seem to be there for each other. That's when Marie began to drink, and John began to look for sympathy/comfort else where.
His getting a mistress, and having children by her I'm told, made it worse for Marie, and she began to do strange things to alienate the children from their father, with considerable success.
There is a lot more to tell about all that, but I would love to hear what happened to Joan, and her children and grandchildren.
Are you coming to Ireland in October? I could stay on a day if it would give you time to catch up on things you want to know.
I dare not risk longer on this internet, as I will end up having to type it all again!
all the best
Wendy
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Not sure if we are getting into the names of the living, but there is a private message system for that....just hit the green scroll under the username of the person you wish to contact. All the best, J.J.
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Thanks for the caution, JJ. As far as I'm aware no living people have been named on this thread.
Wendy and Cosmo - I will PM you with my details.
Philip
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Does anyone have any photos of John Henry James and/or Marie Massereene Cordner or any relatives? I have one photo of my Dad, but none at all of his relatives.
If anyone can help, I will PM my e-mail address to you.
Philip
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Hi Philip,
I think I have one of each, maybe even one of Philip etc. HOWEVER, they are in storage in Canada as I just sold up there and am in wandering mode for a while. As soon as I have access I will send you copies of what I have.
Wendy
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Hi Phillip
I came across your details whilst trying to find out more about the Trewartha James. I've registered on RootsChat but will have to do some more exploring when I have time as I can't now recover the chat stream I found where you were finding out lots about the family. I don't know if you went much further looking at this lineage, but for what it's worth...
Anyway, I am the great-granddaughter of William and Alice. Their second daughter was Dorril Vernon (not Dorris) who was my late father's mother. It was wonderful to find out more too about great-uncle Derric - perhaps if I find myself near Loos I'll visit his grave. The stories about the William and Alice family stream are that William and John were international mining consultants (I loved the snippet about how they chose their wives by tossing a coin!) and continued travelling after marriage, hence Dorril being born in Mexico city. In 1903 William and Alice had another daughter, Iris Mavourneen, who became a ballerina and danced once as Iris James with Sadlers Wells in London. She was always known as Jimmy and ended her days with us. Dorril found herself a husband in another family of eccentrics - I believe the marriage was arranged and not awfully happy, although they had 3 sons and seemed to have lots of fun. Funnily enough, her sister married her husband's cousin, although not til much later - history repeating itself... Dorril emulated her parents' life in many ways and on marrying bought a house close by in London and furnished it as similarly as possible. I think the family was badly affected by Derric's death in the Great War.
Oh - the story I heard was that the reason the sisters double-barrelled their husbands' name was that they didn't fancy continuing to have the same surname after marriage when they'd been the same before. Mary obviously won with double-barrelling her surname. We don't know where the others found the Trewartha. Interestingly enough, I always heard it that the brothers were William and Samuel, and I note from an earlier posting that Abraham of Gwennap had a son called Samuel so that must be where the muddle comes from. I'm having trouble typing because the screen keeps flicking so excuse any mistakes!
Well, it's late so that's me done, but I wanted to say thanks for starting that stream that helped me to find out so much more about my family.
Anna
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Hallo, Anna - and welcome to Rootschat.
How lovely to hear from a relative!
Most of my Trewartha family tree should be on GenesReunited, although I have not kept up my subscription. I have various information and queries on various other internet sites but I have rather lost track of them.
I will send you a personal message with my e-mail address if you would like copies of the files I have on computer. For anything I can't help with, Rootschat is a wonderful site full of helpful people.
Wendy Beasley (see below) is a great person to know. She and I are descended from John Henry James.
It's fascinating to hear of another "Jimmy" James. John Henry had a daughter Norah Ruth Cordner James who was also known as Jimmy.
Hope to hear from you soon
Philip
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Hi Philip
Well, that is a strange coincidence. They would have been first cousins (on their mother's side - second cousins on their father's side - confusing!) so perhaps there is a link there. We never knew why Aunt Jim was called Jimmy; her initials were IM so my father thought perhaps it was a play on that, but it is more likely she gained it later in life when she danced (ballet) under the name Iris James. Dorril certainly always used her full surname: Trewartha James.
I spoke to my cousin last night who is also very interested in family history, so hopefully he'll log on and join in the chat before long. However, I think most of his research is on the line of Dorril's husband, Victor Fenton - another Irish link. When it comes to eccentricity, I don't think we stood much of a chance with those two bloodlines!
with best wishes for a Happy Christmas and New Year,
Anna
PS - I don't know if you tried to send me a personal message but I wasn't able to access it.
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May i point out that the first world war had disasterous consequences on the psyche of that young and impressionable generation. Full of Irish American zeal, Frank Cordner, then known as Frank Claud Cordner-James, or "Fluffy" at Felstead, abandoned agricultural College to enlist in the Royal Inniskillen Fusiliers at the age of 16, against his father's wishes, lying about his age. He spent an almost solid three and a half years in the dehumanising hell of the Trenches, leaving one regiment as it departed and enlisting in the next to go up to the front line. This had a detrimental effect on his mental health, leaving him with 80% disability from neurasthenia, or shell shock, to put it crudely. the overall consequences were that he didn't feel he deserved to be alive, as 90% of his peer group had been annihilated in that same environment. He also would get the sudden conviction of "What the hell am i doing here?" and depart for pastures new, even if it just meant moving house about every three weeks, months or even after a week in one case. He could only tolerate a job for about 6 months, before having to seek fresh pastures, and alcohol was a permanent part of his diet, like almost all men who have served in the more serious armed services. As a wanderer, he had his share of adventures, including the odd night in the cells for quite legitimate reasons, as any traveller in south America can attest. Not once did he commit a moral crime, unless you wish to include smuggling whiskey during the American Prohibition for a Chinese ship owner.
His older brother, Phillip was injured in a motorcycle accident, medically discharged and later departed for Malaya as a manager of a rubber plantation and later as an importer/exporter.
His younger brother, Michael was manager at one time of the Calgary Gas Company, but suffered the Irish curse of being a serious alcoholic, and being very small, quite pugnacious! Great fun, though. The sister, Joan, i know nother much about, But as Wendy says, Norah the other sister was a spitfire pilot, amongst other things in the second war, ferrying them to the fighter fields. Her banned book was deemed offensive because she had a character in it who was a lesbian. This was her first book, Written during her convalescence from a serious illness, and was a best seller, being sold overseas and imported, but her greatest book was called, "I LIVED IN A DEMOCRACY".
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Hallo, Chunky - and welcome to Rootschat.
Norah's autobiography "I lived in a democracy" gives some fascinating insights into the family dynamics, as does the will of John Henry James.
I am the grandson of Joan (1905-1970). I was not aware of a brother Michael - do you have any details on him?
All the best
Philip
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....
Also found an article in The NY Times; dated August 10, 1898:
A.B. Cordner Arrested
He is charged with Forgery in Connecticut to the Extent of $3000.
New London, Conn., Aug. 9--Auckland B. Cordner of St. Louis was to-day arrested by Connecticut officers on a warrant charging forgery to the extent of $3000. He was locked up, and will be held until requisition papers are received from Missouri. Mr. and Mrs. Cordner arrived here early in Jun., and have occupied Actor James O'Neill's cottage, Monte Cristo. They at once gained entree to New London swell Summer society, and entertained most lavishly.
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Have enjoyed reading this thread. Would like to add a historical note that Auckland Cordner's place of arrest is a significant location in the history of American theater.
James O'Neill was the well known actor and father of Eugene O'Neill, the Nobel prize winning American playwright. Monte Cristo, the O'Neill summer home, is the setting of his masterpiece A Long Day's Journey into Night, the Pulitzer prize winning drama of 1957. Monte Cristo today is a National Historic Landmark in New London, Connecticut. Eugene O'Neill would have been ~10 years old at the time of Auckland's arrest.
Another interesting connection for your family !
Here are some links for Eugene O'Neill, A Long Day's Journey into Night, and Monte Cristo
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/o/eugene_oneill/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Day's_Journey_into_Night
http://www.theoneill.org/monte-cristo-cottage
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Hello Philip,
Derric Vernon Terwartha-James was my great Uncle. I see that a few years ago you have a brief chat with my cousin Anna. I am afraid I cannot add much more to what she has already told you. I do have a photograph you might be interested in though.
It seems I cannot send you a PM with my e-mail address until have made three post, so apologies in advance I will post this three times
Regards
Jon
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Hello Philip,
Derric Vernon Terwartha-James was my great Uncle. I see that a few years ago you have a brief chat with my cousin Anna. I am afraid I cannot add much more to what she has already told you. I do have a photograph you might be interested in though.
It seems I cannot send you a PM with my e-mail address until have made three post, so apologies in advance I will post this three times
Regards
Jon
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Hello Philip,
Derric Vernon Terwartha-James was my great Uncle. I see that a few years ago you have a brief chat with my cousin Anna. I am afraid I cannot add much more to what she has already told you. I do have a photograph you might be interested in though.
It seems I cannot send you a PM with my e-mail address until have made three post, so apologies in advance I will post this three times
Regards
Jon
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This thread has been a source of information, fascination and contacting relatives I never knew about. Ain't Rootschat great! :D
Once again, I thank everyone who has contributed to this thread.
Back to basics:
It has been established that William Bell (aka Thompson) CORDNER married Eliza(beth) Aldwell SANDYS on 21 September 1860 in Aghaderg, Co Down, Ireland. The marriage record lists William's father as William CORDNER, farmer. Eliza's father was Basil SANDYS.
William and Eliza's descendants are in contact and we have a mass of information.
The SANDYS family line has been traced backwards and sideways and we have a mass of information.
However, none of us have yet tracked the CORDNER ancestry. One of William jr's children was Mary (Marie) Massereene CORDNER (born 1867 Louisiana) - so there is a probability that there is a Cordner link to the estate of Viscount Massereene/Ferrard and there were Cordners in Antrim in the 19th century, but no link has yet been proved.
William Bell (aka Thompson) CORDNER was born c1841 Ireland according to the US census 1880. He died in Aiken, South Carolina in 1881. But who were his parents?
The search goes on!
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Found this
Belfast News Letter - 18th February, 1861
February 13th at Tandragee, Anne, third daughter of the late William Cordner Esq. of Clady Bog, County Armagh and sister to William Bell Cordner of Tandragee and Lurgan.
Also in 1861 there is a court case of a Thomas Cordner aged 14yrs, William Bell states they are brothers and Thomas works in his shop.
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Suffolk Sue you are a superstar. :) If it were not for the fact that bigamy is a crime (and I don't think my wife would approve!) I would rush round with a massive bunch of flowers and propose!
I have just found a reference to William and Thomas Cordner leasing farmland in Ballylane from the Earl of Charlemont in 1827. On the adjoining plot of land is Francis Bell. Hmmmm - William Cordner a farmer and his son's middle name was Bell. Could it be coincidence? At the very least it could be a lead.
The game's afoot, the hunt is gathering pace.
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;D ;D ;D
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This is interesting, but don't know if there is any connection.
In Colchester in 1864 there is an inquest of a baby who died called Eleanor Elizabeth Bell Cordner. The mothers name was Martha nee Greenwood (her father was mentioned). It also states her husband, name unknown died in New Zealand.
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There is a newspaper report of William Bell Cordner being made bankrupt in 1864. It would seem soon after the family went overseas.
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William Bell (aka Thompson) Cordner's character is summed up by an obituary in the Insurance Times (May 1881):
"The life of the deceased affords a striking example of wasted power. As a businessman he was remarkably gifted, astute and enterprising. His resources seemed to be inexhaustible, and he was always full of hope and ready for a fresh venture. But his dissiveness (?) and instability forfeited all his chances of enduring success." - It appears that as soon as one business became established (but not always profitable) William got bored and moved on to a new challenge.
I am still looking for William's birth -place, date and parents (b Armagh, Ireland c1840 son of William a farmer) and the exact birth dates and places of his children: Edwin (c1861 England?), Auckland (c1864 Ireland), Alice (c1866 Canada - poss. Montreal), Mary/Marie (b c1868 New Orleans, Louisiana), Kathleen (b c1870 St Louis, Michigan ) and Ethel (b c1879 Boston, Massachusetts).
suffolk_sue has established that William's father William died before 1861 (Clady Bog, County Armagh) and had at least five children:
William Bell (b c1841), unknown daughter, unknown daughter, Anne (d 13 Feb 1861 Tandragee), and Thomas (b c1847)
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Latest update:
William Bell Cordner
1860 married Eliza Aldwell Sandys (he 20, she 19)
1861-64 appears in newspaper reports & trade directories as shopkeeper, grocer Tandragee and Dublin
1864 June -goes bankrupt in Dublin
(William Bell Cordner then disappears from the records)
William Cordner
1880 US census
William Cordner - age 39, born Ireland, life assurance agent
Elizabeth (wife) - age 37, born England
Edwin age 19 born England
Auckland age 17 born Ireland
Alice age 15 born Canada
Mary age 13 born La
Kathleen age 11 born Mi
Ethel age 2 born Mass
William Thompson Cordner
(from newspaper article and obituaries)
1840 - born 19 September, Armagh
"He first entered into business in Dublin as a printing paper commission merchant, and started his first newspaper in that city. He married about this time, and afterward engaged in the tea business."
1867, Mr. Cordner (J. P. Thompson) established the Western Insurance Review [in St Louis, Missouri]
1871 appointed Commissioner of Emigration by the Mississippi Venture Society and sent to London to set up and run office
1873 to 1877 - banking in the City of London - Thompson, Cordner & Co
1877 in Boston - manager of the New York Life Insurance Company
1881 died 9 March Aiken, South Carolina
leaves widow, 2 sons, 4 daughters.
1891 England census
Eliza S Cordner widow, age 40 (?!) born Longford, Ireland
Kathleen, age 22, born St Louis
Pauline, age 13, born Boston
Alice S C Trewartha-James (daughter) age 25, born Montreal
(plus Alice's husband and son)
1909 death certificate
Elizabeth Cordner, age 65, widow of William Cordner, president of an American insurance co.
NOTE
On various records Kathleen, Pauline and Alice Cordner use the middle name Sandys.
So, I have two questions:
1) Given the Eliza/Elizabeth Sandys name, is it "beyond reasonable doubt" that William Bell Cordner is the same person as William Cordner (in 1880) who I am certain is the same person as William Thompson Cordner?
2) Can anyone help with finding William on a passenger list? I have tried Ellis Island, the ships list, olive tree, familysearch - but I can't see him.
Any help gratefully received!
Philip
(p.s. - there is a quantity of information on this thread, and I have amassed data on relatives of William and Eliza. I am only after info regarding my two outstanding queries)
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Hi Philip, these baptisms took place at St Lawrence, Dublin, which appears to be a RC Church
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie
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Marriage of one of the daughters, mentioning Thompson, 1889.
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The Boston Daily Globe, Boston Massachusetts.
A report says the Cordner family left Liverpool and arrived in Boston on June 28th, 1877 and the same newspaper reports the family are residing in the Commonwealth Hotel in October 1877.
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The Boston Daily Globe, Boston Massachusetts.
A report says the Cordner family left Liverpool and arrived in Boston on June 28th, 1877 and the same newspaper reports the family are residing in the Commonwealth Hotel in October 1877.
Sue, you are wonderful!
Is this info off a website that I could search?
Also - I hadn't seen the Cordner baptisms as I had believed Cordner and Sandys were Protestant (they married in a Presbyterian church) - this offers a new area to search. Yippee!
Now all I need are passenger records (if they survive!).
Many, many thanks
Philip
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That was from the newspaper collection on Findmypast. I thought basically the Sandys family were C of E, but maybe the Cordners were Catholic.
I couldn't find them on any passenger list, unless anyone else has any luck.
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Time to revive this fascinating thread.
Basil SANDYS was baptised 31 Aug 1800 in Rathkeale, Limerick
He had around 5 children 1826-34 with Catherine DEVANEY (in London)
He had one daughter, Eliza Aldwell SANDYS c1841 with (we believe) Catherine GERAGHTY (suggested marriage 1837 not proved) Eliza/Elizabeth born either England or Longford, Ireland as per 1880 US census and 1901 England census.
He married 1855 Catherine OTTER (nee BIRMINGHAM) and had further children.
He died 7 Jul 1871 St Giles Middx
Nothing is known about Catherine DEVANEY
suffolk*sue has researched Catherine OTTER/BIRMINGHAM
I may have a new lead on Catherine GERAGHTY
irishgenealogy has records from St Catherine's RC church Dublin which suggest:
Thomas bap1764 (sibling Andrew bap1767) sons of Richard GERAGHTY and Sarah
Thomas GERAGHTY bap1787 son of Thomas GERAGHTY and Margaret O'CONNOR
Thomas GERAGHTY m1811 Mary TYRRELL
Catherine bap1814 (siblings Mary A bap1812, Eleanor bap1814, William bap1816) all children of Thomas GERAGHTY and Mary TYRRELL
If only I could find conclusive proof of marriages between Basil and the first two Catherines (or a birth record for Eliza Aldwell SANDYS) I would be an excessively happy bunny!
Philip