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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Costar on Saturday 11 August 07 18:28 BST (UK)
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James Russell, born 1888, Glasgow. KIA 1914-18. Remains found in France or Belgium 1937 along with several others when the farmer was ploughing a field. I do not know any other details, regiment, service number etc. It was mentioned in the Glasgow papers of the time.
I am trying to find info re the finding of his remains and final burial place. I tried the CWGC and found what could be him, date of death 1916 and the right age. Parents names were not quite right but matched his elder brother and wife and the address given was in the right area in Glasgow. (his parents had died before 1919). I contacted CWGC direct by phone but they had no record of finding his remains.
My father mentioned it several years ago. I tried to get further information from his remaining family but they could not agree on dates etc. Sadly they have now all passed away.
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Hi Costar
Welcome to Rootschat! :)
How can we help?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi Arranroots.
Thanks for the interest.
I have modified my message.
Cheers.
Costar
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Ah that's clearer!
It might help if you tell us how you know (or think you know) that the remains were found in 1937? Especially if the CWGC don;t know about it.
Do you have records of his family?
The more you can tell us, the better.
I will move this to the Armed Forces board, where the experts live! :D
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Any more details like parents' names, any middle name, regiment, etc. and details of possible entry on CWGC would help as there are lots of James/J Russells died WWI.
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From www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dccfarr/features.htm
Every year poignant reminders to the scale of the human tragedy that befell a whole generation are unearthed in the fields of France and Belgium. Approximately twenty sets of remains are found each year in what has become known as "The Harvest of Bones".
In all such cases, the Commission works closely with the relevant embassy defence attaché and ministry of defence to identify any remains found and locate next of kin.
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hiya costar,the CWGC were still concentrating thousands of scattered graves into purpose built cemeteries right up till the beginning of ww2,many cemeteries were still unfinished in the 1930s,your soldiers are probably some of those waiting to be reburied,go on the great war forum and get hold of terry denham,hes involved with the CWGC,hes a very knowledgable and helpful lad,mack
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Hi All,
Info from CWGC,
Private James Russell, 1st Bat Cameron Highlanders. Number S/22289, age 28. Born Denniston. Death 19/11/1916.
Commemoration Thiepval Memorial. Son of William & Mary Russell, 5 Grafton Squ, Glasgow.
This info feels right but having a hard job proving it. He was born in Calton but who knows what he put down when he enlisted.
Grafton Square is just around the corner from where his other brother stayed in McAslin street and is I believe the address in which their family doctor had his practice.
Cheers
Costar
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costar,if his body was identified,then he wont be on the thiepval memorial,he will be buried in a named grave,the memorial is only for those with no known grave,mack
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theres a good chance of finding him,born 1888,means your looking for a soldier aged between 25-30yrs old,there were 200 j.russells killed in ww1,you can rule out all those who dont fit in this age range,his body was identified,so you can rule out those mentioned on memorials and all those who died in other countries other than france/belgium,also eliminate all the johns and josephs,there shouldnt be many names left after that,mack
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I have rechecked again.
James`s name is on the Thiepval Memorial because his remains were not found at the time. As he was found and reburied in 1937 his name was not have been taken off before the start of WW2.
Not all Russells on the CWGC have ages or parents names (I have checked them all). I check the 1937 editions of the Glasgow Evening Citizen and the Evening Times newspapers every time I go to Glasgow, hoping to find the supposed article that had been written about the finding of his remains.
It is along process.
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Hi Costar
With the information you have given, it seems that you've found your man.
Here is the SDGW entry (note: it is the only entry for 1 Cameron Highlanders):
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Hi atom12,
I Have a feeling I am on the right trail but I need to know where he is buried.
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Now that you have a lead maybe contact CWGC and ask if they can confirm that this soldier's remains were found and then given a proper burial- and if so ask for details like date, etc.
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Sorry to butt into this posting, but Manmack you say
the memorial is only for those with no known grave,
.
My query is this. My g.uncle's name is on the Cambrai Memorial, but according to CWGC he died of his wounds. Is that what all deaths show if there is no body? I assumed that if he died of his wounds, someone would have found the body.
Liz
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To Liz
Died of Wounds, would suggest that there is a body to bury, certainly with all the ones I've come across the soldier had usually died at a Casualty Clearing station, or in a hospital either abroad or once invalided home to the UK.
So I'd agree with Manmack that the soldier's named on memorials are for those with 'no known grave'.
Looks like you will have to investigate this one further. :o
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That's what I thought. All the info I have on my g.uncle I got from the CWGC site. This is the reference to the memorial. I assumed it meant his name is listed on it. I've looked on Findmypast and Findmyrelatives sites and they also show him as dying of his wounds, although I suppose their info is from the CWGC originally.
"Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 1. Cemetary/Memorial Name: CAMBRAI MEMORIAL, LOUVERVAL"
I think the best thing for me to do is to visit the cemetery and see what I can find there. We've driven past it loads of times but it's not one of the ones sites we have visited, as until recently, I didn't even know of this great uncle, never mind his death in WWI.
Liz
ps. Sorry for delay in responding, I got "Timed Out" of Rootschat. I'm logging off now to go to bed.
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Liz- Have you gotten information on uncle from Soldiers Died in the Great War? Think there's usually more information there (like place of enlistment, etc.).
I am presently researching local soldiers who died in WWI for a book being written and I also thought if a soldier is listed on one of the memorials that he/she had no known grave.
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Yes, I've got full information, place of birth, place of enlistment, place of residence, soldier number, rank, how he died (died of wounds), place of death (France and Flanders), date of death (24.11.1917), regiment, battalion. It is only CWGC that shows "Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 1. Cemetary/Memorial Name: CAMBRAI MEMORIAL, LOUVERVAL"
I'm confused, but as I say, we will go to Cambrai Memorial next time we are in France.
Liz
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Just to point out that the information on Findmypast is not obtained from the CWGC. Apart from that soldiers there are many instances where it was noted that soldiers died of their wounds and were buried but their place of burial was either lost or totally destroyed in later fighting etc etc. There are a variety of possibilities.
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there are many instances where it was noted that soldiers died of their wounds and were buried but their place of burial was either lost or totally destroyed in later fighting etc etc. There are a variety of possibilities.
Agreed, though I've noticed that in a number of cemeteries there is often a commemoration stone stating the names of men who with no known graves, are 'known to be buried in the graveyard'. :'(
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It is possible that he died in a 'field station' and was hastily buried, then the ground was torn up by further fighting and the grave was lost. It took years for the burial parties to find some bodies to move to cemeteries.
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Thank you to all who replied to my query, however, I did hi-jack Costar's original posting and I hope that he/she has had his/her own query satisfactorily answered.
Liz
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Hi Can I just add that when you look up a relative on CWGC it gives you the Cemetery Reports this tells you which Soldiers where fighting in the area sometimes -only by Regt. Also a feature on CWGC is on the left hand side is informing you all about what they are, what they do and an explanation of how soldiers where buried. They even have photos of them at work.
It explains the sadder facts about War Graves.
regards
tisgrannie
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Sorry to butt into this posting, but Manmack you say
the memorial is only for those with no known grave,
.
My query is this. My g.uncle's name is on the Cambrai Memorial, but according to CWGC he died of his wounds. Is that what all deaths show if there is no body? I assumed that if he died of his wounds, someone would have found the body.
Liz
sorry lizie,only just seen this,a lot of graves were destroyed by shellfire and many others were lost in the heavy fighting,thousands of graves were swallowed up in the mud in france+flanders,mack
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Hi All,
I have contacted the CWGC, not only here but in France and Belgium to no avail. They have no record of James Russells body being found or reburied. I have found in the 1913 valuation rolls that there was a William Russell living in Grafton Square/street occupation "Clerk of Works". I am trying to find what I can about him (if he was James`s Father).
Cheers
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I have rechecked again.
James`s name is on the Thiepval Memorial because his remains were not found at the time. As he was found and reburied in 1937 his name was not have been taken off before the start of WW2.
Not all Russells on the CWGC have ages or parents names (I have checked them all). I check the 1937 editions of the Glasgow Evening Citizen and the Evening Times newspapers every time I go to Glasgow, hoping to find the supposed article that had been written about the finding of his remains.
It is along process.
james russells name would have been erased from the memorial by now,once a soldier has been ID,his name is removed from the memorial when the CWGC team do their usual maintainance work.
mack
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Hi All,
After years of searching I still have not found "my" James Russell. The closest match S/22289 turned out not to be him. I found a memorial plaque on his families headstone in the Kirk O Shotts Cemetery and after researching the names on it, I found that there was onto the wrong James Russell.
Vast numbers of WW1 dead were being discovered in the aftermath of the war and some were identified and next of kin notified. I have been searching the Glasgow Evening Citizen without success but was surprised to find in the Ottawa Evening Citizen articles re the finding of graves, giving the numbers found, and identified in particular for the years 1936/37. There are many reports in various newspapers regarding these matters ,the Reading Eagle to name another. I have phoned the CWGC re this but they say they have no knowledge of these findings.
But the search goes on.
Sorry I have not kept up to-date with my findings, I seem to have difficulty in find my posts.
Thanks to all
Costar
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Sorry I have not kept up to-date with my findings, I seem to have difficulty in find my posts.
Do you have notifications turned on for the topics you are interested in? if so, then you should get email notification of new replies (also don't forget that RC has your current email address)
If you go into your Profile page- you can select 'show' posts from the left-hand menu.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=48853
From that page you can then select 'topics' to just show those thopics which you've started.
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You state "Parents names were not quite right but matched his elder brother and wife and the address given was in the right area in Glasgow." That implies that you know his parents. If so, what was their names?
Regards
Malky
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Hi Malky,
My James Russells parents were, William Russell & Margaret Coffey, both dead by 1919.
His brother William married a widow Mary Egen (maiden name Mary Burgess Russell). Her parents were William Russell & Mary Burgess.
No wonder I get confused.
Cheers
Jim (Costar)
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For general information I am aware that not all CWGC graves are in military cemetaries; one a member of my family who died in WW1 is buried under a CWGC Headstone in Willoughby cemetary Lincolnshire; so presumably he will have died of wounds received abroard whilst on active service.
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For general information I am aware that not all CWGC graves are in military cemetaries; one a member of my family who died in WW1 is buried under a CWGC Headstone in Willoughby cemetary Lincolnshire; so presumably he will have died of wounds received abroard whilst on active service.
Possibly, but on the other hand he might of died from illness, an accident in training, been victim of a crime or been hit by a bus. In fact anything that might result in death. His death certifcate may reveal all.
Imber
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Possibly, but on the other hand he might of died from illness, an accident in training, been victim of a crime or been hit by a bus. In fact anything that might result in death. His death certifcate may reveal all.
Imber
If many of the latter, then how would he qualify for CWGC headstone?
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The only qualification for a CWGC headstone is that you died while enlisted. You may have been shot at dawn or died from venereal disease but it made no difference.
Imber
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The only qualification for a CWGC headstone is that you died while enlisted. You may have been shot at dawn or died from venereal disease but it made no difference.
Imber
Thanks, that explains a lot. I can't see many of those shot at dawn whose relatives would have requested a headstone. How would it have been inscribed I wonder?
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Headstones were not erected by request but as standard procedure. As to what might appear on the headstone of someone shot at dawn rather depends on the viewpoint of the next of kin. I'm sure many will have felt that the soldier concerned was a victim of the circumstances he found himself in. Some who were shot were, of course, guilty of very serious criminal offences. You may find the following to be of some interest:
http://www.cwgc.org/respect/docs/Additional_ideas/Shot_at_dawn.pdf
Imber
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I did, many thanks for that!