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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ross & Cromarty => Topic started by: dmackenzie on Friday 17 August 07 00:54 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
Trying to track down the family of one John MacKenzie (my ggg-grandfather). His wife was Ann McKay and according to a family tree my grandfather scribbled down for my auntie many years ago, they had two sons Kenneth (b. ~ 1811) and George (b. ~1813; my gg-grandfather), and at one point lived in the 'Heights of Strathpeffer'. We've managed to track down the descendents of these 2 sons (Kenneth emigrated to Victoria, Australia, while George moved to the Black Isle and possibly Kirkhill near Inverness), but what we're interested in is other siblings of theirs, and Johns origin.
From the IGI there is a John MacKenzie and Ann McKay who married in Fodderty in 1808, with children listed as:
Catherine, b. 1818, Fodderty
Alexander, b. 1820, Fodderty
Lizy, b. 1823, Fodderty
Janet, b. 1826, Fodderty
Christy, b. 1831, Fodderty
but no mention of a Kenneth or George. Given the gap between the marriage and first child recorded in Fodderty, it's possible the family may have moved elsewhere between the marriage and Catherine's birth. We're reasonably sure it's the same family as John and Ann turn up in the 1841 census as living in the 'Heights of Keppoch' (not far from the town of Strathpeffer, and in the Strathpeffer valley), with some of these children. So this matches with my grandfathers notes.
Again from my grandfathers notes, John came from Ullapool, or at least lived there at some point. From IGI there are baptism records from the Lochbroom parish for a Kenneth and George MacKenzie, with father John in 1811 and 1813 respectively. We speculate (which is always dangerous with genealogy), that John may have came from the Ullapool region, met and married Ann in Fodderty, moved back west for a few years, before moving permanently back to Fodderty.
Based upon the 1841 census age, John would have been born in 1780-1781, and death year is unknown.
If anyone could help shed some light on our family tree that would be great.
Cheers
Darryl
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Hi Daryl
Not sure if I can help too much but I live (at the moment) near Ullapool and have done a fair bit of research in the area. The Lochbroom Parish records don't go much furth back than the mid-1790s so the chances of tracking John down through the parish records are rather slim >:(
An aquaintance has managed to get back further using various documents at the National archives in Scotland.
It is quite possible that John did meet Ann on the east side. There were frequent cattle drives over the Dirrie Mor to the Dingwall area and young men often went over to the east coast for the fishing.
Regards
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget,
My father grew up in the Black Isle before emigrating to New Zealand and remembers stock being bought across from the west coast to graze on their farm during the 1950's (by a Murdo MacKenzie; no idea if he's a distant relation though), so we figured something along the lines of what you're suggesting was possible.
We've tracked down that Ann was born in Fodderty to a George McKay, so fell that John's father may have been Kenneth, but that's unlikely to help very much given how popular the name Kenneth MacKenzie was in the 1700's!
It's probably a bit much to expect that we'll be able to turn up much more on John (but you never know what's out there in personal family histories), but were hoping that some of the other (possible) sibling names sounded familiar to someone, in particular any descendants of Alexander so we could confirm the relationship with DNA.
Cheers
Darryl
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Hi Daryl
One of our members( don_niagara) might have some information on the McKenzies of Ullapool. He has managed to tap into a lot of sources. It might be worth you sending him a Personal Message.
Regards
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget for the tip. How do I send a personal message though? Sorry, I'm a newbie.
Darryl
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Oh sorry Daryl, How rude of me. i should have welcomed you.
Welcome now :)
I'll send you a message telling you how to send a message - see if it works :)
Gadget
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Hiya Daryl,
Nice to hear from you!
From the data you have sent I was able to see the christenings of Kenneth and George you note from the I.G.I. in Lochbroom Parish, I have photocopied most of the Register, and it often includes details not extracted into the I.G.I.
The Register shows in both cases the father John MacKenzie resident at Ullapool, no further details though.... Records in that period are sparse,... I have the 1825-7 Militia lists and have slowly been transcribing and annotating them onto my website, and have hopes of obtaining the 1821 list in the next few weeks, but those postdate the time your John was at Ullapool,...
I see your bunch in the 1841 census at Fodderty, with John as 60-64 years old, I guess you have searched, but it would be great if he lived to the start of Civil Registration in 1855...
No great help from me on this queery I fear, other than the passing noting John's wife's surname is one I'd expect in northern SutherlandShire and Caithness...
All the best from Niagara,
Donald.
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Hi Donald,
Thanks for looking into things for me. I'll keep scratching away and see if I can turn anything up. I have noticed that in the 1841 census (from FreeCEN), this is the only family of MacKenzie's (as opposed to McKenzie's) in Fodderty. Is there likely to be anything in that, i.e., educated enough to check the name was spelt correctly? No offence to all you Mckenzie's out there. ;)
I've been trying to track down a copy of the 1851 census for Fodderty to see if they're still alive then at least, but not much luck to date.
Cheers
Darryl
PS Is the original Register for Lochbroom organized geographically at all? Or is everything in the one register? Just wondering whether John and Ann may have any other children while over there.
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Hiya Daryl,
you wrote:
this is the only family of MacKenzie's (as opposed to McKenzie's) in Fodderty. Is there likely to be anything in that,
Any time pre 1900 "Mc" and "Mac" were interchangable in Scottish records. Handwriting style of the day elevated the c in Mc, often with a horizontal stroke under that, and less often with two dots under that. Someone then seeing "McDond" would read it as "MacDonald". Similarly a long s which looked like a letter f was used in words with double esses, the name "Ross" is often mistaken as "Rofs" or "Roff".
You also wrote:
Is the original Register for Lochbroom organized geographically at all? Or is everything in the one register? Just wondering whether John and Ann may have any other children while over there
The Register was kept by date not place. Usually place of residence of the father was noted, from the I.G.I. there were 49 christenings in the Parish from 1809 to 1817 with fathers as John MacKenzie. From the photocopies of the Parish Register the ones at Ullapool could be picked out, perhaps a dozen or more, than some of those could be eliminated if found in the 1841 census with their families, however there would need to be some further source to be looked at to see if the remaining children had any connection...
All the best,
Donald.
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Don,
I realise that Mc and Mac were used interchangably, just thought it was curious that in the Fodderty parish there are 394 McKenzie's and only 5 MacKenzie's in the 1841 census, but probably it's nothing.
In looking for other children I was wondering if any family names might turn up, but it's likely to be a long shot.
Cheers
Darryl
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Further to this, have just tracked down John and Ann's death certificates... The wonders of the internet!
Ann MacKenzie (nee McKay) b. 4 July 1786, Fodderty. d. 22 Sep 1856. Father = George McKay (Gardner), Mother = Elizabeth Martin.
John MacKenzie. b. c1780, Lochbroom. d. 13 June 1858. Father = John MacKenzie (Fisher), Mother = Janet Stewart. Informant was John McKenzie (son) who we know nothing about, but there is a few gaps between dates of known children so it could be possible.
Does that help connect up with anyone else's information?
Cheers
Darryl
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Hiya Daryl et al,
sorry to be a bit slow replying, hectic week off-line,...
Looks like you now have three sons of a John MK at Lochbroom (mothers names are not in the Lochbroom O.P.R. that period), their birth order, and approx birth years, from that it might be possible to pick out your bunch.
Placing the family at Ullapool in family records or even records does not neccesarly mean that is where they specifically lived; it was the largest community and people living in the smaller surrounding places of only a few households would later tell people they were from "Ullapool". Similar today as "Gadget" can probably attest people living in small communities on the Coigach peninsula say they are from "Achiltibuie".
That said, your John, son of John MacKenzie (Fisher) and Janet Stewart, was probably not born in Ullapool as 1780 predates founding of the village, and Stewarts were thin on the ground at Ullapool.
My guess is your bunch were from Isle Martin or more likely 1780 period at Badenscallie in Coigach. At the bottom of the Badenscallie file on my website I include the following.
All the best,
Donald.
Coigach Stewarts
In February 1999 John MacLeod (CONTACT INFO) who has ancestors at Badenscallie, emailed me the following information, it is reinforced by a letter from Jean Stewart of Inverness to Gwen Smith (CONTACT INFO) of Tasmania in 1984. Jean said three sons from Appin had to flee west to the region which is now Ullapool. I think the Stewart refugees are also mentionned in the book "Peoples and Settlement in North-West Ross" edited by John R. Baldwin in 1994 (SOURCE INFO).
John MacLeod wrote;
Various families came into the area following the '45, including the Stewarts, a party of whom (women included!) escaped from the battlefield of Culloden and fled north through the hills until they reached the Oykel valley at Tutim. There one of the women is buried in the graveyard above the road. The party turned West and eventually settled in Coigach. Originally from the Appin area, all the Stewarts in Coigach are descended from those settlers.
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Something else occured to me...
Daryl wrote:
Given the gap between the marriage and first child recorded in Fodderty, it's possible the family may have moved elsewhere between the marriage and Catherine's birth.
The couple may have both been at Lochbroom in 1808 at time of the marriage. It was custom then for the wedding to be registered in both bride and groom's Parishes, and the 1808 Lochbroom Register no longer survives.
Donald.
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Thanks very much for your insights Donald.
Cheers
Darryl
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In the 1851 Uray census aged 44 my grt grt grandfather John Mackenzie declares he was born in Fodderty yet his parents Alexander Mackenzie1761-1843 and Janet Robertson 1770c-1852 farmed Teanagairn in the northern shore of the Black Isle and Alexander was said to have been born there in 1761.
Have been watching this story develope and hesitantly dip my toe in these waters as I'm having difficulty tying down the birthdate of
John Mackenzie who held the Tarradale Post Office/drapery at Muir of Ord in the parish of Urray.He may be John Robertson Mackenzie b 21 Nov 1811 which does not agree with the census age.
I managed to find a descendant of his sister Margaret now in her 80s who said that when they came North they also visited relations at the Heights of Auchterneed.
I have quite a bit on these Mackenzies but if unrelated to our lister I don't want to confuse the issue further !
Fransmoi.
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Hi Fransmoi,
It doesn't sound like a direct connection between our John MacKenzies, but my father has been doing some research in Scotland and found that descendants of our John MacKenzie III (thats my gg-grandfather's brother) married into another MacKenzie family in the Garve region. I'll know more when he gets back to New Zealand in a few weeks (or he may even see this post). Possibly there's a connection there.
Are you (or do you know of) any direct male descendants of your John MacKenzie? There's a MacKenzie DNA project that you can join and submit DNA to that may turn up something, although it's all based on male DNA so that's why you need a direct male descendant.
On the other hand, my fathers maternal grandmother was a Robertson that I presume was from the Black Isle, she married Kenneth Grigor and they live in the Cullicudden area. I don't know very much about that particular branch though at this stage. Do you have much on your Robertsons?
Cheers
Darryl
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Alexander Mackenzie (b 1761 d 6 Sep 1843 ) married Janet Robertson (b1770c d 11 Jul 1852)
Janet's brother was Colin Robertson b1773c died 1854 at Duncanston not far from Teanagairn. If that had been Colin's father's before him it is possible Janet was born there. All just a guess so far.
In the 1841 census Janet is ticked as born in the County but her husband is not.
Records for these families are hard to find.Not even a marriage for Janet and Alexander.
Their son Murdo married Elizabeth Ross b Cullicudden 1830. John had 2 wives
Mary Mackenzie and Ann Henderson .
My grt grandfather Alexander(1844-90) was widowed young in Chelsea,
London and his daughter bonded with his sister so he went out to South Africa after 1880 and married again there an Annie Maud Butler in Cape town.
They had a son Douglas Alexander Mackenzie in 1899 who was but a year old when his daddy died.
It's taken decades but I traced Douglas' banking career ,marriage, children, death in Durban in 1953 and now his grandchildren but despite all attempts I've been unable to make contact especially as they have males in that line.
Until we hear more from your line I will hold fast lest I muddle the issue !
Fransmoi - ( female !)
1 Feb 2010
Thanks to Rootschat I have made contact through their family solicitor named on a death notice.The family are coming to visit in June so the line comes full circle again !
Fransmoi
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Sorry Fransmoi, I wasn't sure whether you were male or female. Fransmoi isn't a very common name around here. :-[
A quick search on the IGI at familysearch.org gives 2 marriages for a Janet Robertson and Alexander MacKenzie that might be possibilities for you, one in 1796 and one 1811. Both are in the Urquhart and Logie Wester (ULW) Parish which includes Duncanston. When was Murdo born? I found a Murdoch MacKenzie born to these parents in 1806 with a sister Janet born in 1808. There are a number of John MacKenzie's born in Fodderty with father = Alexander; none of them have the mothers name listed. Birth dates are 1800, 1801, 1804, 1809, 1810. Fodderty isn't terribly far from the Black Isle and the ULW parish
How certain are your approximate birth dates for Colin and Janet?
Again in the ULW Parish there was a Colin born 1779 and Janet in 1768 with parents Colin Robertson and Janet McCrae. This was the only pairing I could find with the same parents around this time on the IGI, but records are getting pretty scarce going back that far.
In the same batch number (c110842), theres a number of other children with the same parents
Robert 1760 (mothers maiden name spelt McRae, which may or may not be relevant. Quite a bit earlier than the rest)
Janet 1768
William 1773
Mary 1776
Isobel 1778
Colin 1779
Thomas 1784
Do any of these tie in with other Robertsons you know of?
I hope this helps.
Cheers
Darryl
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Daryl , You have just completed the search for me finding Janet and her brother's baptisms and I've just found my old notes on her descendants.
Thank you very much indeed.
I knew not to take the gravestones as gospel but I had not extended the search far enough.They were well out.
I do not recognse the Robertson farm name of Bettern/Beltern though but will have a look on http://www.old-maps.co.uk.
Janet's grandson Sandy" Kinkell" Mackenzie said she was descended from the Provost of Dingwall and was related to prime minister William Ewart Gladstone. He had a great portrait of him in his room and when I checked Gladstone's gradfather was indeed Andrew Robertson of Park House,Dingwall the local Provost and I think he married twice ! Another trail to follow on another day - It is 2a.m. here in Scotland.
Enough excitement for one evening.....!
Fransmoi
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No problems. I've emailed my father to ask what he knows of my Grandmother's Robertson line. He may know more else he may be able to ask her before he heads back to NZ; she still lives in Cromarty on the Black Isle. Whereabouts are you in Scotland? Dad may be interested in comparing notes before he comes back if it looks like a possible link (either with MacKenzies or Robertsons).
Cheers
Darryl
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I will send a p m with my address, Daryl.
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Hi,
My husband is descended from an Elizabeth McKenzie who was supposedly (according to England census records) from the Cromarty region of Scotland. Also according to census records she was born around 1815 - 1818 although according to her death certificate she was born c1808. Her father, as is noted on her marriage certificate, was a James McKenzie, occupation Stoneman (stonemason?). I have been unable, so far, to find either her baptism record or any record of James. There are a couple of candidates but none I can really say for certain are definitely likely.
I would be grateful if anyone can help. Thanks!!
Regards, Christine in Australia.
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Hi Christine,
From familysearch.org, a search on the info you provided for the date range 1803-1823, turns up 2 possibilities in Ross and Cromarty:
Eliza MacKenzie, b 10 May 1807, to James MacKenzie and Margaret Bain. Cromarty parish
Elizabeth McKenzie, c 12 June 1804, to James and Majory McIntosh, Urquhart and Logie Wester parish (a couple of parishes over from Cromarty).
These might be a bit too early to be your Elizabeth?
Cheers
Darryl
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Thanks Darryl, I have seen the second one of those which I feel is definitely too early :D also the first is a possibility but may be too early as well.... any idea what that James' occupation might have been? Is there anyone else who has him in their tree who can help maybe? I had thought that maybe they had a daughter Eliza as well as Elizabeth....... or her name was Eliza Elizabeth....... does that make sense?
Thanks again!! :)
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Hi Chris,
Eliza may have just recorded a a shortened version of Elizabeth in the parish registers. Sorry, but there's no info on fathers occupation online, although there might be on the original records if you can find someone with a copy of them. You may want to post your request under a new thread. What is the earliest census in which you've tracked down Elizabeth? Was she still with her parents? Do you know anything more about James (approx birth or death dates; after 1855 the death should have been recorded), his wife or other childrens names?
Cheers
Darryl
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Hi Darryl,
The earliest census with 'my' Elizabeth is the 1851 England census where she is in London with her husband, James Harris of Essex, and daughter Martha who was 6 yrs old. I have since obtained her marriage certificate as well as her death certificate. She and James were married in 1844 in Middlesex. I have not been able to possitively identify her in the 1841 England census, although there are a couple of possibles. As I mentioned, the census records mentioned either Scotland or Cromarty Scotland as being her place of birth. Also, as I mentioned, all I know about her father is what is on her marriage certificate, ie, James McKenzie, Stoneman.
I haven't been able to possitively place him in London in any census so far...... must have another go as I think I only tried the 1841 England/1841 Scotland census and as we are well aware there are lots of James McKenzies (as well as lots of Elizabeth McKenzies) in Scotland..... and a few scattered through England as well.
I have no idea of whether or not she had siblings and what their names may have been, ditto her mum.
You may be right about the Eliza being short for Elizabeth. Any idea where I may be able to find (or ask someone to find) the parish registers and have a look-see??
I did in fact have another thread for this family...... but it has been a while and I felt that this thread, since it is about McKenzies, may provide a clue or 2 more...... :D
Thanks again Darryl
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Ok,
I have had another look at Elizabeth in 1851. She and family are in Westminster, Golden Square (58 Poland St, at least that is what I think the name of it is). I rechecked the 1841 England census for dear Lizzie and of course there were several BUT I did find one (which I had seen before but had misgivings about it) Elizabeth McKenzie aged 30 (!! she is 36 in 1851) in a household in Argyle street as a female servant from Scotland. 1851 definitely states Scotland Cromarty. So can I assume that this 1841 Elizabeth is indeed 'my' Elizabeth?? Perhaps not but she is the most likely candidate..... I do know that James Harris her hubby was in London in 1841 can't recall just now exactly where....
Chris :)
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Chris,
In the 1841 census they sometimes rounded the ages so if she's listed as 30, she could be anywhere from 25-34, so she may or may not be the same one. So her birth place is given as Cromarty (the town) and not Ross and Cromarty (the county)? On her death certificate, does it not record her mothers name? It should also have her birthplace listed which you could use as a double check.
Darryl
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All it says on her death certificate is "widow of James Harris Innkeeper" Age 69. No mother's name and no place of birth.
and yes the 1851 census does say Cromarty Scotland so could well be the town rather than the county...... either way it hasn't helped much. In 1861 the family are in Withyham Sussex and Elizabeth is 44. In 1871 census she is merely from Scotland and is 56. Interestingly I had a lot of trouble finding them in the 1871 census.
Chris.
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ok stupid question time - Cromarty the town is in Cromarty the county yes???? Ross & Cromarty County even......
:)
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:) Ross and Cromarty stretched from the west to the east coast, from just north of Inverness. If you google 'ross and cromarty' you should get some good links popping up. Cromarty is a town (and parish) within Ross and Cromarty, on the tip of a small peninsular known as the 'Black Isle', just north of Inverness.
Darryl
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Hi Chris
here's a link to a Parish Map that might set it in perspective:
http://scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-caithness.htm
It's of the three norther counties - Caithness, Sutherland and Ross & Cromarty
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget and Darryl. :)
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Hi again :D
Ok so I have searched both the OPR on Scotlands People and Familysearch's IGI and have come up with what I think looks like very strong candidates for Elizabeth's parents.
I followed up on the James McKenzie/Margaret Bain marriage (18 Sept 1801 Cromarty) which I found on the IGI (as suggested by members on this site :) ). I then went to Scotlands People and searched there and found a christening record for Eliza (as previously noted) in May of 1807 (as well as Margaret 1805 and Williamina 1809) daughter of James McKenzie Mason (occupation stonemason??? )and Margaret Bain of Cromarty. Does anyone else think this is a likely match??
Regarding the OPR record for Eliza - I viewed the scanned record and it does look as if 'Eliza' may well have been Elizabeth but it is not entirely clear though. Question- as far as I can see from the image all the children (not just McKenzie's) have the first name followed by what looks like a second initial followed by either S or D indicating to me Son or Daughter- am I right in making that assumption?
:-* thanks for your help :D
Chris.
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Hello All,
I hope someone can help, I have downloaded the OPC for my 3rd Gt. Grandfather, Thomas Pearson, 13th July 1804 Fodderty. It claims his father was Alexander from what looks like Tolley or Folley. Does anyone have any information on this place, or know who Alexander married?
Any help would be great!!
Thanks
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I've never put anything on a message board before,so, I hope this makes some sense.
I'm trying to trace a Mary Ann McKenzie from Fodderty. Her father might be the Alexander listed in the first message of this topic. All the census and marriage records give her birthplace as Fodderty but I can find no record of her birth.
She is my Great Grandmother and married my Great Grandfather in 1870 in Waterbeach, Cambridgeshire, England. The parish records give her father's name and his occupation as "foreman". This was her second marriage.
As she came from an agricultural background (as was her first husband) and as all my ancestors were farm labourers who never travelled anywhere I am at a lose to understand how they ever met.
David Rayner
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Hi Dave,
Do you have any other info on Mary? DoB, mothers name, first husband, siblings, etc
Darryl
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Thanks for your reply Darryl
IF I have the right person Mary Ann McKenzie was born in 1841, all the records I can find give Fodderty as her birthplace, but I can't find a record of the birth, maybe her mother returned home for it.
The 1851 census lists: (all born Fodderty)
Alexander Mckenzie abt 1816 Head
Ann " abt 1812 Wife
Alexander " abt 1840 Son
Mary " abt 1841 Daughter
Colin " abt 1845 Son
Donald " abt 1846 Son
Margaret " abt 1848 Daughter
She first marries on 11th June 1859 to Donald Grant
She was a domestic servant and he a farm grieve both at Feregorm (or Foregorm) of Ferrintosh - I can find Ferrintosh but not the actual farm or estate. Both the marriage certificate and the 1861 census give a birth date of 1839. By the time of her marriage her father had remarried, so, I don't have the maiden name of her mother.
Their daughter, Isabella, was born in 1860 and I have no other information about her. Donald died in 1863.
On 8th February 1870 she married William Rayner of Waterbeach Cambridgeshire. They had 3 children (John 1872 - my grandfather, Elizabeth Beatrice 1877 and Mary Ann 1880). She died 26th November 1884.
Hope this is of interest, it would be good to know if this is 'your' Alexander.
David
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Hi David,
Doesn't sound like our Alexander and not sure what to suggest otherwise. Best of luck
Darryl
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Hi Chris,
This is a long shot but I have an Alexander McKenzie living in the London area in 1844 whose father was a James McKenzie, stonemason, on his marriage cert in 1845.
I'm desperately searching around for any possible leads to Alexander's birth details as census only ever recorded 'born Scotland'. Do you have any witnesses on the marriage cert. of Elizabeth McKenzie & James Harris or perhaps an address for Elizabeth?
Thanks
Kasha
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Hi Kasha!!
So sorry to take so long to reply but I have only just seen this message!! I have no idea why I missed it.....
BTW it is so nice to find someone who has a James Mackenzie Stoneman (or stonemason) as a father on a marriage cert, particularly one in the 1840's!!
(Oh, if I have already replied to this message I can't see any record of it..)
I can tell you that Elizabeth's address at the time of her marriage to James Harris was 11 Ross St, doesn't have town or city but the marriage was registered in Bloomsbury District, and the marriage was solemnized at the Parish Church in the Parish of somewhere or other (hard to read the writing) in the county of Middlesex, witnesses Mary Doddbridge and Wm Taylor.
Can you tell me a bit about Alexander? Where was he living in 1845? Have you found him in London or thereabouts in the 1841 census?
I only have a possible match for Elizabeth in the 1841 census which is frustrating. I guess that I can probably have a look at the copy of the relevant 1841 census and see what that address is. Can't remember right now and it's on my other (older, which I don't use much) compy.
I have not been able to find out much, if anything, about James Mackenzie (Mckenzie?)
Do you have subsequent (to 1841) english census records with Alexander and family?
So many questions!! So little answers. Feel free to pm me or alternatively my email is
Moderator comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the personal message system to exchange such information. New users might have to post a couple more times in order to activate the system.
Ciao! Here's hoping we have a bit of luck with this darn McKenzie family.
Regards, Christine.
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Hi Chris,
Since I posted my message I realise that we have already been in touch, possibly via GenesReunited. So nothing much more to tell you.
But I have looked for 11 Ross Street in London, the address of Elizabeth McKenzie at the time of her marriage to James Harris in 1844. I can't find it anywhere in the 1841 census or later but there is a ROSE Street in the Bloomsbury area. Could this be it? In which case there are a couple of Harris families in the street in 1841, maybe even three. Quite a coincidence don't you think? Also at no. 11 is a John Smith, victualler, employing 2 servants, although neither are Elizabeth in 1841. Could this have been Elizabeth's employer in 1844? It might explain the couple's later occupation as Innkeepers.
Regards
kasha
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Hi
Is it possible for Chris to scan just the portion of the Marriage cert. that lists the address and parish and put it up here? It might help to confirm the family :)
Gadget
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Well Kasha, after having another look at Elizabeth's marriage cert it is possible that it is Rose St not Ross St (couldn't people write plain english then????? ;) ) and Rose St is probably it if it is in Bloomsbury area. As it turns out I don't have a copy of the possible Elizabeth McKenzie in London in 1841, I think I'll either have to resubscribe to ancestry or maybe some kind person out there who has access will have a look for me :)
Gadget, I will attempt to scan a portion or even the whole cert... not sure how it'll go......
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Kasha, could you perhaps tell me the names of the Harris families living nearby at the time? 1841 that is, as I am fairly certain that James Harris' father and 2 brothers (that I know of) were still living in Hatfield Peverel at that time.
Ciao!
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Hi Chris
It's the Parish of St Giles in the Fields:
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/StGilesInTheFields/index.html
Also, I think it is Rose Street with one of those strange 'e' forms that looks like a small capital letter. I do them at the end of a word, although I do normal ones within words :)
Gadget
PS - 13 Crown Street is the other address
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Hi Chris,
The Harris families living in Rose Street in the 1841 are:
6 Rose Street:
Michael Harris 40 Tailor, born in this county,
Mary 30
John 10
Mary 8
Thomas 5
James 3
William 5 mths
7 Rose Street:
James Harris 35 Bootmaker, not born in this county,
Mary 45
William 12
Eliza 15
Sophia 9
Emma 6
Neither of these families are at the same addresses in the 1851 but I haven't checked the whole of Rose Street yet. The third family turns out to be Haines not Harris.
Kasha
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Hi again Chris,
Just checked Crown Street in the 1841 census. You may already have this.
Living at 13, Crown Street:
George Harris 60 Saddletree Maker
Elizabeth 45
George 11
Elizabeth 20 Sempstress
Mary 14
all born same county
21 Crown Street:
George Harris 35, Smith, b same county
36 Crown Street:
Anne Harris 35, 'wife of G. Harris Page 17' , not b same county
Hope it helps,
Kasha
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Hi Kasha,
I don't think that any of those Harris's are connected to our James. At least not closely although it is possible that the 60 yr old George may be an uncle. Does the record indicate where he is from? In 1841 James' dad (Gregory) and brothers were still living in Hatfield Peveral Essex.
BTW did you know that there is a marriage on record at SP for a James McKenzie and Janet Reid? Married in 1807 (in Cromarty) if I recall correctly. This James and Janet McKenzie had a son Alexander born in 1817 in Cromarty. Could this be your Alexander? I don't know if they had any other children.
My Elizabeth McKenzie is still a bit of a mystery. The closest I can come to her is an Eliza born in May 1807 to a James McKenzie (Mason) and Margaret, formerly Bain. This couple had 2 other daughters that I know of, or was it 3?? :)
Ciao!!
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Hi Chris,
As you probably know the 1841 census does not state where born. But there is a column to record if a particular person was born in the county in which they were residing in 1841.
In the case of George Harris, 60, residing at 13 Crown Street there is a Y in this column - meaning yes, he was born in Middlesex. As were his wife and children.
Thanks for the James McKenzie/Janet Reid information. I will check it out but I think there are hundreds of father James/ son Alexander McKenzie combinations out there waiting to trip me up.
Kasha
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Can I butt in here with a query on a McKenzie from R. & C.
MARY MCKENZIE of Ferrintosh, Killearnan Parish, Ross-shire, b. Urquhart c.1799, was married in Lewiston, near Drumnadrochit, in Jan. 1820 to MALCO(L)M MCDONALD, Widower, House carpenter, supposedly born 1795 (but could be earlier, in order to accommodate his first marriage) - birthplace unknown. They had two known children:
1. MURDOCH MCDONALD, b. 1820-1 Glen Urquhart, m. Dec. 1846 to Christina Urquhart, b. 1822 Ferrintosh, Killearnan Parish. Had 7 children, all born in Cullicudden, Resolis.
2. WILLIAM HUGHIN MCDONALD b. 1825, Urquhart, no other known details.
This is a huge brick wall, which I have been unable to surmount!!
(My husband John MacLeod, formerly of Inverness, is descended through his mother's line from the third child of Murdoch and Christy's marriage - Malcolm McDonald - who in 1833 married Martha Matheson (b. `1857 in Resolis) in Loch Carron, and lived for a time at Strome Ferry.)
Any help with early Malcom McDonald and Mary McKenzie???
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RSMACL,
Any further info on your Christina Urquhart? I also have one in my tree, but b 1820 in Urquhart and Logie Wester (same general area as yours). Parents James and Christina (Christian) Cameron. Not going to be a sibling, but perhaps a cousin? Urquhart's were pretty thick on the ground though in that part of the Black Isle then.
My Christian Urquhart married George MacKenzie (gg-granddad), whose the son of John MacKenzie and Ann McKay in my original posting.
Cheers
Darryl
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Hi,
I saw your posts about McKenzies, specifically Janet McKenzie who may be the same Janet McKenzie b. abt 1782 who married Alexander (or John, conflicting data) Dingwall. Their son Murdoch Dingwall was b. 15 Jan 1805 at the Height of Keppoch in Fodderty. (Parish records name his father as Alexander.) Murdoch married Mary Dingwall (maiden name) 30 May 1831 in Fodderty, and they immigrated to Ontario, Canada, around 1842. After the death of her husband in Scotland in the 1860s, Janet joined Murdoch's family in Carluke, a small community near Ancaster, Ontario. She died there 12 Jan 1877, age 94, and is buried at the Carluke Red Brick Presbyterian Cemetery.
If you think this is your Janet McKenzie, and would like information about Murdoch's family, let me know.
Tricia Dingwall Thompson
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Hi Tricia,
Sorry, our Janet MacKenzie was born 1826. You had me getting excited there for a moment!
I actually now suspect that our Janet may have had an illegitimate son, Roderick MacKenzie, b. abt 1851. In the 1851 census Janet was with her parents (John and Ann) in the Heights of Keppoch along with an infant child. In later census' I've found Janet's sister Catherine living with her nephew Roderick who is the right age to be the infant from 1851. Haven't got around to tracking this possibility down though.
Happy hunting!
Cheers
Darryl
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RSMACL,
Any further info on your Christina Urquhart? I also have one in my tree, but b 1820 in Urquhart and Logie Wester (same general area as yours). Parents James and Christina (Christian) Cameron. Not going to be a sibling, but perhaps a cousin? Urquhart's were pretty thick on the ground though in that part of the Black Isle then.
My Christian Urquhart married George MacKenzie (gg-granddad), whose the son of John MacKenzie and Ann McKay in my original posting.
Cheers
Darryl
"My" Christian Urquhart's parents were Donald Urquhart/Harriet McLennan; do you have any further info. on your Christian, which could link her to mine?
I also see I put a wrong date in my original message - of marriage of Malcolm McDonald (3rd child of Christian Urquhart/Murdoch McDonald) to Martha Matheson - should have read 6 July, 1883 (not 1833).
Also have a Murdoch McKenzie, uncle of Murdoch McLeod (through his mother Mary McKenzie). He was living with Murdoch/Christian on 1871 Census Cullicudden, Resolis - 78 yrs., widower/uncle/annuitant, which puts his birth around 1793, Ferrintosh, Killearnan Parish, Ross-shire.
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RSMACL,
On my Urquhart line I have (from IGI OPR)...
William m. Helen McRae 8/3/1787 @ Urquhart and Logie Wester (ULU)
John c. 8/7/1791
James c. 4/7/1793 **(ggg-grandfather)
Nelly (Helen) c. 27/1/1796
Katherine c. 9/12/1798
Isobel c. 20/12/1804
Isobel c. 13/9/1807
There's a 4-year gap between marriage and first recorded child (that I've found) in ULU records so perhaps a possibility of another older sibling?
James m. Christian (Christina) Cameron
William c. 4/8/1817
Christian c. 28/11/1820 **(gg-grandmother)
Duncan c. 2/1/1823
John c. 21/4/1826
James c. 19/4/1828
Donald b.23/4/1830, c. 26/5/1830
Christian m. George MacKenzie circa. 1845. As far as I'm aware George was the first of the MacKenzie's in my direct line in the Black Isle.
I found your Christian in the IGI OPR c. 3/6/1822 ULU (which includes Ferrintosh), with siblings:
Isabel c.3/6/1822 (a twin!)
John c. 25/1/1814
James c. 12/10/1818
Can't see an obvious link at this stage...
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Hello there, quite sure these are my ancestors (through my grandfathers adoption in 1903 by an Angus McKenzie in Gourock). His father Murdoch or Murdo born in this area before moving the family 2 Greenock on the west coast nr Glasgow.
I'm travelling at the moment, can give you quite a bit of information. Will message you again.
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Thanks Gadget for the tip. How do I send a personal message though? Sorry, I'm a newbie.
Darryl
Hello< I'm new to this form of research but also trying to get a clearer picture of my family tree via my mothers fathers family. Her father was Thomas Joesph Mackenzie born 3rd January 1866 Ullapool brother Peter Alexander Mackenzie. They being the sons of Peter Mackenzie who had a brother Kenneth, sons of Thomas Mackenzie who married Magdalene More?. Thomas had a brother Kenneth (farmer Glastullech) who were the sons of Hector Mackenzie and Avire Letterlach who according to notes that I have have are linked to a Roderick, Alexander and Colin. Thomas Mackenzie was school master Shore Street, Ullapool in 1840. Are there any links to your Mackenzie's?
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hi gorski,
I have a distant relative who knows a bit more about the McKenzie's than me and I'm going to contact him to find out what he might know. He's done loads of research and has lots on his family tree. I'm just darting around here and there at the moment and haven't had a chance to message him. I'm off at a trade fair and won't be able to speak to him until middle of the week. Once I get some info from him I'll post it on here.
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hi, can find the family of Peter McKenzie and Mary Ried - is that the family? There is an Isabella Reid McKenzie and oddly there seems to be a Thomas and a Thomas Joseph?? and then Peter Alexander. All born Lochbroom.
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Hi,
Mary Reid from ths Isle of Skye married Peter Mackenzie son of Thomas Mackenzie school master Shore Street, Ullapool 1840 his father was Hector Mackenzie who married Avire Letterach but I haven't been able to go any further back or find out anything about the brother of Thomas, Kenneth who was a farmer at Glastullech.
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I am new to this site. My maternal grandmother was born next to the Tarbat Lighthouse. Her name was Margaret Elizabeth Fraser. She was born December 26, 1886. Her parent's names were David Fraser and Williamina Michael. David Fraser, David's father, was born 1798 and married Johanna McKenzie. ( There is another line I am interested in.) I do have lots of information which I can and will share.
I am posting this to see what happens when I do send this message. I am totally unfamiliar with this website. It hope it is the key to finding some lost information. I did see someone was looking for missing Fraser folks in the Portmahomack area. I am also! I can give more information once I know I have managed to get a message on line in the proper place.
Thanks,
Barbara in Texas
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Hi there, very interested to hear what gorski had to say.....
I have an ancestor, Hector Mackenzie who was a tenant at Arrielettrach (on the south shore of Loch Luichart), probably before 1700 who had a son Roderick who had a son Thomas who had a son Roderick who married Mary McLean about 1780 and from whose son Thomas born 1786 in Fodderty I am descended.
Is it possible that gorski's "Avire Letterlach" is a garbled version of the farm name?
There is a Glastullich in Easter Ross as well as the one near Ullapool
*****
gorski wrote: "... trying to get a clearer picture of my family tree via my mothers fathers family. Her father was Thomas Joesph Mackenzie born 3rd January 1866 Ullapool brother Peter Alexander Mackenzie. They being the sons of Peter Mackenzie who had a brother Kenneth, sons of Thomas Mackenzie who married Magdalene More?. Thomas had a brother Kenneth (farmer Glastullech) who were the sons of Hector Mackenzie and Avire Letterlach who according to notes that I have have are linked to a Roderick, Alexander and Colin. Thomas Mackenzie was school master Shore Street, Ullapool in 1840. Are there any links to your Mackenzie's?"
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Hi there
All I have is a small scrap of paper headed with the name Hector Mackenzie and what I assummed was a wife's name but of course it could be a place name. From this heading details drop down in two lines one showing sons Thomas and Kenneth but dropping down from another line are the names Roderick, Alexander and Colin so whether these are half borthers or what I'm not sure. I can follow the line of Thomas Mackenzie down to my Grandfather Thomas Joesph Mackenzie born1866 but have no details of his brother Kenneth or details of thier uncle also named Kenneth Mackenzie who was a farmer at Glastullech. However I do have some hand written letters from what I believe to be from someone called "Alex Rupete" who wrote to his mother via my great, great grandad father Thomas Mackenzie School Master Shore Street Ullapool dated 1840 sent from HMS Vanguard and another from him addressed to his uncle (no name) dated1844. If any of this links in with the research that your doing please let me know.
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this is getting interesting... i have small piece of paper headed "Extract from a genealogical table" as follows:
(1) Hector Mackenzie. Tenant at Arrieletterach
(2) Roderick son of the foregoing. Tenant at Kinlochluichart
(4) Thomas, " "
(12) Roderick " "
(22) Thomas " " 10 Society Place, Brown Sq, Edinburgh
( ) Alexander " " 3 Grindlay Street, Edinburgh
~~~~~~~~~
(22) Thomas was born 1786 in Heights of Auchterneed, Strathpeffer, Fodderty and died in 1862 in Edinburgh; he was my 2G grandfather.
Is this information compatible with your table?
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I'm not sure whether we can establish a link but for Hector Mackenzie I have on line one, two sons Kenneth Mackenzie Farmer Glastullech and Thomas Mackenzie, my great great grandfather who was married Magdalene More(?) who had two sons the eldest being Peter a merchant who married Mary Reid from Skye parents of my great grandfather. I do not know anything about line two showing children of Hector's listed as Roderick, Alexander and Colin in that order. Thomas Mackenzie was the School Master in Shore Street Ullapool in 1840 and in his later years was paymaster clerk Feneiblis. I also have a copy of a will for Thomas Mackenzie dated 1843 appointing a Hector Mackenzie Agent Ullapool as executor so not sure why the same name heads the scrap of paper with the family tree. Confussed I am
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Still trying to pin down the Mc(Mac)Kenzies of Fodderty, Killearnan Parish from 1800's. Mary McKenzie married Malcolm McDonald (widower) in January 1820 in Lewiston, and I know she had a brother Murdoch McKenzie, born abt. 1793 in Fodderty. Anyone help me further?
Mary and Malcolm McDonald had at least two sons - Murdoch born 1821 in Urquhart (and Glenmoriston) and William Hughin born 1825 ditto.
Does anyone have these people in their Scottish tree? Ruth MacLeod in Australia
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To jmackenzie: I believe I have larger version of the same information as the numbering matches. The document I have is a large chart, hand-written. It relates to the death of Colin MacKenzie in South America I believe, who died without issue. The written is old and at times difficult to read.
1) Hector tenant at Arrieletterach
children
2) Roderick tenant at Kinlochluichart
3) Colin (died no issue)
4) Thomas
5) Alexander
6) Isabella married Donald Macleman(?) (Eoghai?) Kirk Officer Lochcarron
7) Elizabeth married Lachlan MacKenzie Torfinlay
8) Christian married Kenneth MacKenzie Fairburn
The testator is a grandson of Roderick(1).
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I think you might hold the original of the chart in question.
I've sent you a message with my email address.. please get in touch...Jean
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Sorry to but into someone else query...the opportunity is too great o pass up!
Does anyone of these family lines have a (Margaret, named on a death cert of Charles) McKenzie marrying a (Robert also on death cert) McPherson or MacPherson?
They had a son Charles my direct line b c1809 -d1860 who married Elizabeth Ross. I have never been able to find Charles' Parents, they are from same areas.
Any clues out there?
Suzy
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sorry, no;
But there are marriages to Gollan, Gillanders, McLennan, Macrae, Finlayson, McLean and Fraser.
Mostly lived in Contin, Urray, Lochbroom and Fodderty
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Hi,
I should be very interested to know what marriages are shown on your chart between MacKenzies and Gillanders.
Regards
Mike
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John Gillanders (lived in Kinlochluichart - est. 1770-1840) married Catherine MacLennan (1778-1857) dau. of Isabella Mackenzie and John Maclennan (Macalister - Tenant in Arrieletterach afterwards at Little Garve).
John Gillanders & Catherine Maclennan had children:
Alexander - died 1870 Scatwell age 73 - married Janet Maclennan -> 5 children
Isabella - died 1867 Ferrytown, Resolis age 60 - married Alexander Fraser, shoemaker - >
Ann - died 1873 Little Moy, Urray age 63 - Dairymaid
Janet - died 1881 Shieldaig age 72 - married Duncan Fraser, Shepherd -> 1 child
Donald - died 1873 Mossford, Contin, Farmer age 61 - married (1) Margaret McGregor (2) Betsy Gillanders -> 1 child?
Margaret - died 1860 Brahan Sq, Urray age 48
John - emigrated to Canada before 1858 - -> children
Jane - died 1892 Balvraid, Urray age 69 - married Alexander Finlayson, Ploughman, Dingwall ->5 children
Does this ring any bells?
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Hi,
No, I'm afraid that I can't see any obvious connections with "my'' Gillanders, who link back to the Gillanders of Highfield, with branches in Lewis and Rosemarkie.
However, I did stumble across the following letter about this family, which I hope will be of interest.
Regards
Mike
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Worth a try.
Thanks for the letter, but the resolution is so low that I can't read it... is there another way to display it?
Jean
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Hi,
I'm afraid that the web site (www.gerrymcguigan.co.uk), from which I downloaded the letter, now seems to be obsolete. I hope that you will be able to read the following scanned copies of my print out.
Regards
Mike
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part 2
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Thanks, these Gillanders & Maclennans are descended from mine. Nice to find out what happened more recently!
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I know this is quite an old thread but I have only recently come across it.
My gggggrandfather Alexander McKenzie, according to the 1841 census was living with his daughter, Isabella in Fodderty. He was a catechist at this time and also noted as such on Isabella's death certificate in 1881.
Isabella was born in Golspie in 1800. Alexander had one other daughter, Elizabeth or Bessie, born in 1805 in Golspie. Her birth certificate states that he was a taylor at that time. On her marriage certificate it stated that her father was from Ross-shire, so it is possible that he was born in Fodderty. The census also confirmed he was born in the county. I have no birth certificate nor marriage certificate to his wife Elizabeth McLeod who was born in Golspie. No sons that I know of.
Elizabeth McKenzie married a George McLeod in 1832 in Edinburgh and their first daughter was called Johan, the next child a son was called John which may have been Alexander's father.
Having read through this thread I don't think there is a connection to any family here but still thought it worth trying in case anyone has any other information.
Diana
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hi ,
is anyone related to Catherine Mackenzie born 1820 or 1822 at fodderty parents alexander
Mackenzie mother jane nee Bethune.catherine went on and married murdo Cameron ,I am related to all of them.murdo-catherine was my 3xgg grand-parents.catherine married murdo in 1848 at
Urquhart and logie wester.murdo died in 1858 Catherine died in 1897 at leanaig.
hope somebody can help.
Irene.
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Hi Irene,
Not the same family, I'm afraid.
I think your Catherine Mackenzie might be the daughter of Alexander Mackenzie of Millbank (son of Kenneth), who went bankrupt in about 1830. If this is news to you, I can give you plenty more detail; another of my ancestors was Alexander's grieve at Millbank (just outside Dingwall).
Jean
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thanks I would love more info.my relative was a farmer that what on his daughter Catherine
death certificate.i know nothing else about them.
Irene.
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Just browsing on the RootsChat website (I'm quite new to this site) and found a chain of posts connecting to my Gillanders & MacLennan families, including yours -my grandmother was Catherine Emily Gillanders, born 1893 in Inverness, daughter of Kenneth Alexander Gillanders (b1855 Contin) and Catherine MacLennan (born 1855 Urray). This Gillanders family emigrated to NZ in 1908 settling in Te Kuiti in the North Island.
Kenneth Alexander Gillanders was son of John Gillanders and Anne Macdonald.
Catherine MacLennan was daughter of John MacLennan and Isabella Harvey.
A lot of the rest of the family are listed in the posts in this chain. One of the posts has a scanned copy of a letter which I think is one I wrote. If interested in that letter + later developments please contact me.
Lesley
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Hi
Saw this thread and finally found a little bit of hope that my Dad's side of the family tree didn't come from under a cabbage bush. I am having no luck finding info on this line. Here in short is what I have.
John MacK m:Janet Stewart (Sco) b:1731?
John MacK m:Catherine Ann MacKay (Sco) b:1783?
Kenneth MacK m:Margaret Georgia Butler Smith (Sco) b:1811
Kenneth McK m:Mary Ann McIntosh (Aust) b:1844
Angus Kenneth McK m:Mary Sturgeon Young (NZ) b:1879
Hugh Mcleod McK m:Annie Hazelwood Giles (NZ) b:1915
Ronald Allen McK m: Katherine Mary Fisk (NZ) b:1944
Me b:1970
Any help would be greatly apprieciated as I am majorly stuck and have no info on the McKenzies
Many thanks
Jackie
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Hi, You don't seem to fit into this tree, but I have found 4 births in Tarbat/Fearn to Kenneth Mackenzie & Margaret Butler between 1841 and 1848. Could this be your ancestors?
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Akenneth~%20%2Bsurname%3AMACKENZIE~%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1825-1854~%20%2Bspouse_givenname%3A%22margaret%20georgia%22~%20%2Bspouse_surname%3Abutler~%20%2Brecord_country%3AScotland
regards, Jean
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Many Thanks Jean for the info.
Will keep looking , that cabbage bush is looking more and more likely ;D ;D ;D
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sorry, no;
But there are marriages to Gollan, Gillanders, McLennan, Macrae, Finlayson, McLean and Fraser.
Mostly lived in Contin, Urray, Lochbroom and Fodderty
Would you mind sharing the McKennzie - Gollan marriages?
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Donald Gollan (31 Mar 1809 Urray - 8 Dec 1877 Edinburgh), Policeman in 1861 Census in Edinburgh married Catherine Mackenzie (c.1806 Contin - 27 May 1862 Edinburgh) on 1 May 1835 in Avoch.
I have found 5 of their children : Alexander 1836 Avoch, Roderick 1837 Avoch, Isabella 1840 Urray, Hector 1843 Tibbermore, Mary c. 1845,
(Margaret 1866 Edinburgh, Donald 1871 Edinburgh were born to Donald's 2nd wife Christina Fulton)
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Thank you for the quick response. Unfortunately, no match that I can see.
My Gollan - McKenzie connection:
Gilbert Gollan
c. 26 Mar 1747, Inverness, Inverness, Scotland
f. John Gollan
m. Mary McPherson
m. 28 Oct 1768, Inverness, Inverness, Scotland
Isabell McKenzie
d. 26 Jan 1809, London, England
Isabel McKenzie
b/c. unknown
d. circa 1812, not sure where,
Isabel was living in Edinburgh when she wrote her will.
Gilbert and Isabel lived on St. Vincent. They had one child that I'm aware of, Gilbert Gollan. From what I can piece together, he was born circa 1771. I'm not sure where. According to Isabel's will, he died on Martinique. He wasn't mentioned in his father's will, so I'm thinking he died before 1809.
I'm hoping to learn when Isabel was born, who her parents/siblings were, and about her son.
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@JRMcKenzie
Hi Jackie,
I think you are part of the same tree, a Kenneth did emigrate to Australia while my line stayed in Scotland. Although we may have been in contact a couple of years ago?
Cheers
Darryl
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Greetings!
Kenneth Mackenzie, b.c. 1790 in Ullapool, d. Feb 1843 at Nairns Close, Edinburgh.
He served as a Private in the King’s Own Scottish Borderers or 55th then 25th Regts of Foot 1806-1833. If anyone can assist with further details about this Kenneth's origins, it would be most welcome.
Thank you
Janice