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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kincardineshire => Topic started by: vhmsf1 on Monday 20 August 07 18:06 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I'm new to this Chatroom so please forgive me if I get this post all wrong!
I am desperately seeking information on my Gt. Gt. Grandfather James Grieg of Kinneff & Catterline. I have record he married married Susan Philip on 24/12/1843 in Kinneff and Catterline and was a Ploughman. I CANNOT find either his Birth Certificate nor that of his wife Susan. :'(
Now... I THINK that Susan may have been his second wife, as in the 1851 Census at Kinneff, there is a record of a Susan Grieg named as 'head of household' and there is a child, Mary Greig, listed as 'Step Daughter', so I'm assuming that her husband James (who is obviously deceased at this time. Though is anything EVER obvious in this Family History search!) was married before, his wife died (in giving birth to Mary?) and he subsequently married Susan. Then HE died!
He and Susan had a child James, who eventually married Mary Mowat (or Mouet) and I cannot for the life of me find HIS Birth Certificate either!! When this James married Mary Mowet, his place of residence was listed as Plashettes Colliery, Fallstone, Northumberland and I'm wondering if James Sr. was in England when James Jr was born?
ANYWAY, if anyone can help me find more about these family members of mine, I'd be SO GRATEFUL!!! :)
Many thanks,
Kate.
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On LDS I see a James Greig - christening 20/Aug/1797 at Beholm Kincardine (parents James Greig and Susan Ross)
Kinnef is halfway between Beholm and Catterline and they may have taken him to Beholm to be christened. Just a thought ;D
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&country=GB&addtohistory=&address=&city=kinneff&zipcode=
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Dear 'For...'
Wow! What a quick response! THANK YOU! :)
Dang! James Greig & susan Ross - it sounds so CLOSE! But... I don't think these are the right folks. The James Jr. I am looking for was born @ 1844. James Sr. & Susan being married in 1843, I'm thinking that this James you found couldn't be his son...
It MIGHT be James Sr. Although he and Susan went on to have three children (according to the 1851 Census). That would make 'your' James about 44 years old - possible for a male to have children past 40 years old, though I wonder how Susan would manage to have 3 kids if she was round about the same age. Having said that, perhaps she WASN'T the same age. According to the 1851 Census I have, she was 42 at the time of registering on that Census. That would make her Birth date around 1809. Hmmmmm... perhaps she WAS 10 years younger than James Sr...
Hey, I'm going to keep this information close! It was a GOOD thought! And ALL thoughts are greatly appreciated! :)
Thanks 'For...'!
Kate.
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Sorry ;D I should have said I thought it might be James senior.
If his first wife died and he was a farmer he might have married a younger woman. She might have even been a widow without any children and farmed herself. A marriage of mutual benefit ??? Maybe that's why you can't find her birth because Philip is her married name ??? What are the names of the other three children?
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If James married in 1843 then he couldnt have been born after 1828. Who were his parents? There are plenty of records on SP for James Greig born between 1800 and 1828
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Hi there, folks,
Firstly, THANKS very much for your responses... it sure helps 'talking' this through!
Well... according to the 1851 Census, Susan 'Grieg' (note: wrong spelling of Greig) is listed as 'head of household' and she had three children registered:
a son - James Jr. (6 years old, which would tally with the age on his Marriage lines to Mary Mowat)
A daughter - Elizabeth (4 years old)
A son - William (2 years old)
And a Stepdaughter - Mary (13 years old)
You're quite right, 'For...', he may very well have married a younger woman - and she may have been a widow! It was quite usual for a man to remarry after the death of his wife, just to provide his kids with a mother. I know one of my rellies married three times! But it didn't occur to me that 'Philip' could be her name by a first marriage! DUH!! >:( So - GOOD THOUGHT!! :) With this in mind, I shall do some more checking!
I've no idea who his parents are I'm afraid, Sancti. It doesn't give them on his Marriage lines! Yes, there are SO MANY James Greigs on SP that without his Birth Certificate, it's terribly hard to pinpoint just which James Greig is MY James Greig!!
What I know is that 'Susan Grieg' is listed as being born in Oyne, Aberdeenshire, Mary (stepdaughter) born in Drumblade, James in Kineff, Eliz. in Newhills and William in Laurenskirk (again wrong spelling but I know that can be the difference between finding Birth records and not!). The Census was done in Harriestown.
Soooo... I can only hope that someone, somewhere, has these people in their family too and have managed to find out more than I have! And would be willing to help me out!
But armed with the information I have and the thoughts and ideas you have given me, I shall keep on looking! However, if you have ANY MORE 'thoughts', I'd be delighted to listen to them!!
Thanks SO MUCH for your responses...
Best wishes,
Kate.
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Hey it can happen. I wasn't getting anywhere with my family so I decided to try my luck with my husbands tree. I put on a post and almost immediately I got a reply. Another chatter saw my post and realized that they knew someone working on the same family tree and let them know about me:o :o :o
That person joined Rootschat just to let me know. With her help I was able to take the family back to 1804. Can you believe it :o :o :o I'm still a little shocked and dazed at that stroke of luck. It turns out her Grt Grandfather was an older brother to my husband's Grt Grandfather.
Mary Ann
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Hi Kate,
You won't find a birth certificate for James as statutory recording of births, deaths & marriages wasn't brought in until 1855.
Perhaps you could try the pre 1855 gravestone index, you might be in luck and find James Griegs death and if she had another husband Susans first husband. But I'm a bit scpetical about that, I presume you got Susans info from James' marriage certificate? On the marriage certificate it usually states "ms" or "formerly". Does it say either?
Jean. ???
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Do you have the correct Susan Grieg on the 1851 census, there are 4 or 5 possibles on SP
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Hello,
Thank you everyone, for all the input you've given me. I appreciate it...
Well, Jean, if I could find the right James's, I think there would be a good possibility of getting their Birth Certificates here in Scotland. We have the 'Old Parish Records' which go back quite a long way... In fact I have a Birth Certificate for one of my rellies dated 1737. And I suspect I'll get back a bit further on that line (if I ever get time to go back to it! ::) Though if James (Jr.) was born in England, then yes, I may have a problem! But at least if I knew that that is where James Jr. was born, I'd feel I'd gotten somewhere! Luckily, I can go past him to James Sr., who I'm pretty sure was born here in Scotland - but WHERE is the question!!
Yes, I got Susan's name from her Marriage to James (Sr.). But as it's from the Old Parish Records, it isn't in the accepted form that Certificates took when the formally written and standardised records began.
It simply states: 1842 (Kinneff & Catterline... "Greig & Philip: James Greig and Susan Philip both residing at Harrieston in this Parish were proclaimed for the third time on the twenty fourth of December."
I don't know about the pre 1855 Gravestone Index. Could you tell me where to find it?
I THINK I have the right Susan Greig on the 1851 Census but of course, I could be WRONG! ??? (It's been known! ;D ) However, the Parish of Harrieston is the same as that on their Marriage Certificate, she has a son, James, who's age tallies with James Greig Jr. and this Susan's James was born in Kinneff, while according to the 1871 Census, James Greig Jr.'s birth is also Kinneff (and not England as I thought MIGHT be possible, though that was only ever a 'perhaps' as he was living in England when he came back to Scotland to marry Mary Mowat.) Also, James Jr. married Mary Mowat in 1866 and according to the Marriage Certificate, James Sr. was deceased at that time.
Soooo... it seems to indicate that this IS the likeliest 'Susan' and family. I've been trying to find the family on the 1861 Census and have found about 9 'could be's'!! :o
Anyway, that's where I am at the moment. Thanking you all for the continued help!! I do appreciate it!!
Kate.
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That was a FABULOUS piece of luck, Mary Ann! Oh for HALF your luck! ;) Seriously, that's GREAT that you found someone that you could compare notes with! :D
I have found rellies through working on another branch of my Family Tree and it's great having someone to talk things over with, work out dates, etc. (in fact I'm meeting up for the first time with one such distant relative on Friday when we are going 'rellie hunting' to find our common ancestors graves! ;)
But I've not found anyone who is working on/looking for the Greig family. Hence my hoping for some assistance through Rootschat.
HOWEVER, perhaps there is someone somewhere working on it too, who isn't a 'chatter' yet! (*I* wasn't, until two days ago!) So I shall continue working on it and hopefully will be ready the day that that 'chatter' comes looking for some assistance! ;)
Kate.
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Well are you sitting down. I found five cousins in March on Ancestry.com. I noticed someone had the name of my uncle (my dad's youngest brother) and his wife on their tree so I contacted them. One of my newly discovered cousins knew our Great Grandfathers name (I didn't) and his wife's maiden name. So I was able to find them.
Everyone says I should buy lottery tickets ;D
I was just helping someone else today and she has had the same experience on Ancestry. There is someone with the same family (different limb) in their tree. She has tried contacting them but on luck.
Just keep plodding on and look under every stone ;D
Mary Ann
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Kate,
I'm too in Scotland and stay in Benholm, quite near to Catterline, I know the parish records in some areas are better that others, but some don't have any records at all hardly. So, when I'm speaking of "certificates" I mean the statutory records when it became lawful to record birth, deaths and marriages i.e. in 1855 (1837 in England). Before that date there was no legal requirement to record the events and was dependant on the minister, in some cases only the wealthy had their events recorded.
I thought that you had got Susans surname from her sons marriage certificate, if not ,then I think that is the way to go.
The pre 1855 grave stone index can be purchased from
http://www.scotsgenealogy.com/acatalog/Kincardineshire_MI.html or it is available in the local library. I recently had it from the library and was offering look-ups, perhaps you could ask for a look-up, I know that bervonian visits the library quite often and I'm sure he will not mind doing this for you.
Jean
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Kate,
I forgot to mention "Harrieston" is not a parish it is a farm, please see link to map.
http://leisure.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/leisure/products.jsp?xvalue=386500&yvalue=778500&q=catterline&zoomindex=3®ionkey=GB&minx=0&maxx=0&miny=0&maxy=0&placename=Catterline&publisher=allpub
I hope that you eventually, find who're you're looking for.
Jean :)
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Hello Jean...
Many thanks for all that helpful info. I hadn't heard of the 'Gravestone Index'... So that might be very helpful! Sorry - I misunderstood you when you were talking of 'Certificates'... I realised that not all BMD's were recorded pre-1855 but I did HOPE that there might some record of James's Birth somewhere. You're right, though - some areas had better records than others. And it may be that James's Birth was not recorded at all - he was only a Ploughman after all (which is good enough for ME!). So I'm thinking that his parents might have been land workers too and the birth of their child wasn't considered important. >:(
Well, actually I got Susan's name from BOTH James and her Marriage Certificate and ALSO James Jr.'s Marriage Certificate, which pretty much confirms that Susan does indeed seem to be his mother. And with the 1851 Census record, that too seems to confirm that this lady Susan is the right Susan. However, unfortunately none of it really helps me to go back any further.
I do wish that I could find records for any of the three of them. My Mother has really fond memories of her Grandfather, William Greig - and these James's were Will's father and Grandfather respectively. They are so close to my mother, to me ... I wish I had more information on them. As it is, I seem to be at a standstill with this family now.
I SHALL go and investigate that 'Gravestone Index' though! Even if I could find the gravestone, it would be something. I couldn't find "Herriestown" on the map - just Harvieston. I wonder if that is a misspelling on the Census form? Or maybe I'm just not looking hard enough! I'll go over and have another look!
Benholm, eh?? I've passed through there MANY times! :) My son & his fiance live in Peterculter so we are up and down the coast fairly often! (I stay in Arbroath) What a pretty place to live!
Thanks very much Jean, for your assistance and explanations. Everything helps!
Oh Mary Ann - you have the luck of the devil!! Hehehee... Hey, could you buy ME some Lottery tickets? Not being lucky by nature, perhaps I might stand a CHANCE of winning something then! ;D
Yes, I intend to keep at this problem, with this family. I just HATE to be beaten!
Many thanks, everyone
Kate.
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Hi,
I think it's been mis-spelt or mis-transcribed and is Harvieston.
Sorry to keep harping on about this, but on James Jnrs marriage certificate, doesn't it say if Philip is her "ms". Usually, if it is her maiden name then it would say "ms" and if it was a former married name it would say "formerly".
Jean :-\
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Hi there, Jean...
Sorry not to reply sooner - have been away for a day or two.
Yes, it does say m.s. so 'Philip' is LIKELY to be her maiden name. I did think so but was considering all possibilities. I know that mistakes are made on records. (One of my rellies is recorded as single - there is record of his marriage and his 8 kids!). So I thought I should consider that this record MIGHT be wrong and that it MIGHT be a previous married name.
But even trying all the permutations, I can't seem to pin down her Birth Certificate and unfortunately, her Death Certificate does not list her parents names either... 'Isles' has very kindly checked the MI for me and - nothing doing! NUTS! >:(
Is this the end of the road? ...*sigh*... ???
Not till I am 100% sure I have exhausted ALL avenues! >:(
I wish I could put 'Completed' in the Subject Line but I am going to leave this open in the hopes that someone SOMEWHERE knows something about these people and can kindly shed some light on this sticky little problem! Meanwhile - Thanks for all your help, folks! If you can think of anything else I might try, I'd be really happy to listen to your ideas.
Best wishes,
Kate.
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No it isn't the end of the road. You just have to put her to one side until something shows up. She's on your "to do" list. I have a heck of a lot of people on my "to do" list ;D
I wonder if there is any history about the farm to be had. Remember JEANP's comment. She said it was a farm and not a parish? I thought that was very interesting.
Sorry ;D I tend to go off in tangents and I find neat stuff. It all adds to the family history.
Good luck in your quest...and hey it's me wishing you good luck ;D ;D ;D ;D Maybe some of my Irish luck will rub off on you.
Mary Ann
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Hello Kate,
Just found this on the 1841 census at "Mains of Harvieston" Kinneff & Catterline:
All the Greig/Craigs were born Kincardineshire
David Craig? - 8
William Craig? - 7
David Grieg - 35 - Farmer
Elizabeth Greig -45
George Greig - 6
Isabella Greig - 10
James Greig - 4
Maria Greig - 11
Selina Greig - 8
Elizabeth Grieve - 13 - Farm Servant
Elizabeth Henry - 35 - Farm Servant
Jane Milne - 20 - Farm Servant
Jean
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Kate, I'm just looking at the 1851 census - have you seen the original? Don't you think it's a bit strange that Susan and the kids are described as Labourers wife, labourers son etc. Is James still alive?
Jean
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That's good advice, Mary Ann - I too have put a fair few people 'on the back burner' for awhile! ;) But I appreciate your sending that Irish luck of yours! And... with Jean in here helping, my problematic Greig family (which was clear as mud last week), is slowly starting to surface! I actually feel I'm getting a little more insight into this family!
So, Jean, are you thinking that the folks on this 1851 'Harvieston' Census could be James's brother, perhaps? That's certainly a possibility and I will go and work on that in a few moments.
Now... I'm just thinking here *can you hear the wheels turning...* :P Hehehehee... If this was a brother of James, then... James and family was not at Harvieston the night of the Census as they would have been recorded as being under David Greig's roof that night. However, they appear on the 1851 Census as being in 'Herriestown' and Susan as 'Head of Household'. So... Harvieston and Herriestown (Herrieston - seen these two spellings) must surely be different places/farms/whatever... HOWEVER, this is a good lead! THANK YOU JEAN!
Now, James is recorded as being deceased in 1866 (young James's Marriage Certificate), sooooo... the question is, was he deceased at the time of the 1851 Census? Orrrr... can the wording (yes, I DID wonder about that myownself!) 'labourers wife' be taken literally?? He's still alive but not residing with Susan anymore?? Perhaps he was off working somewhere and Susan preferred to have the kids settled in one place... Perhaps the night of the Census he was on another farm, working and sleeping there through the week and coming home at weekends... In hard times you do what you have to do...
Well... more questions than answers here! BUT - some really good points, Jean! I'm going to follow up this David and family, if I can! I've just run out of my monthly SP credits budget - NUTS! :P But I'm SORELY tempted to blow it, this has got me so intrigued! ;) ;D ;D
Thanks to all the tips and places to search that I've found posted here in the last couple of weeks (MUCHO THANKS to all who have shared their genealogy search techniques and tips!!), I THINK there are one or two places I can try that MIGHT turn something up!
For the moment - Thanks Jean! And thanks to Mary Ann for your continued encouragement!
Kate.
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Hello Jean!
I found the whole David Greig family on the IGI - his wife was Elizabeth CRAIG! Therefore, I'm assuming that the two children, David and William Craig would be siblings of hers! It's amazing how similar the two names 'Greig' and 'Craig' are - and so it was a natural supposition to believe that the names might have been misspelled! Just goes to show that you can't 'assume' ANYTHING in this 'research' business!
Anyway, I'm working on from there!
Kate.
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Excellent job JEANP ;D ;D ;D
Sorry I haven't been involved with the looking. I was off on my own little red herring. I'm working north from Liverpool and getting closer to the Scottish border ;D Longtown is where I'm at now.
Kate. I agree - those names are too much alike.
You have to be open to what mistakes can happen. My Tate/Tait connection have been transcribed as Fate, Tail, Sale, Fail on Ancestry. Why didn't they make the census takers print ???:o :o :o :o
Mary Ann
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It's me again.
The census for David Greig was the 1841 census not 1851, I still think it's the same place.
Jean ;)
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Kate, I'm just looking at the 1851 census - have you seen the original? Don't you think it's a bit strange that Susan and the kids are described as Labourers wife, labourers son etc. Is James still alive?
Jean
I was thinking about what you said. I have a family that has a merchant seaman as head of household. But, when he's away at sea and the wife is the HOH then she is described as "wife of merchant seaman". I always though that was odd but I guess it was a way to explain his absense ???
Mary Ann
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Hi Mary Ann,
Yes, I too have women living with their offspring and named as head of household, in my case their menfolk have been working "away" either on another farm/quarry. But, they are noted as being married on the census, I don't know if this is the case for Kate, the transcription I have seen does not give this information.
Jean :)
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Hello ladies... It's been a hectic weekend thus not responding sooner. I've been doing a lot of thinking about the Greig family though and I've managed to get a little digging and research in but I haven't been able to pin James Greig down yet.
You may very well be right, Jean, regards 'Harriestown' and 'Harvieston' - they are very similar and so I have NOT AT ALL dismissed that possibility! I HAVE been checking the possibilities of 'Harriestown' being right too though (it never does any harm to check through all the possibilities)... and I HAVE found an entry for a John Milne, who came from 'Upper Harriestown', Kinneff, Kincardineshire. Sooooo... this MAY be the name of a very small croft that doesn't even warrant a mark on the Ordinance Survery map... Gosh, I just don't know...
Yes, I got caught up in your second post re:
"Kate, I'm just looking at the 1851 census - have you seen the original? Don't you think it's a bit strange that Susan and the kids are described as Labourers wife, labourers son etc. Is James still alive?"
and inadvertently started working on 1851 rather than 1841, and in view of this, I think this chap David COULD be James's uncle, rather than brother. Of course, the dates didn't fit, once you drew my attention back to the fact that it was 1841. That would make David & Elisabeth being born around the 1807 mark, whereas I have James's provisional Birth date as around the 1820 mark and a potential brother around that same date (found a David 1825 who had a sibling James, but Greig - and inded the names James and David - is such a common name around there). I have found a Birth record for a James born 1820 in Marykirk, along with a passle of siblings (14 children, including AT LEAST THREE sets of twins!) who seems to fit the Bill... BUT I need to do a lot more work on this before I put ANYONE down as MY James Greig Sr.
However, I DO feel that I'm getting SOMEWHERE. I now have a copy of James Jr's Death Certificate and I also have Mary Mowat's and Susan Philip's Death Certificates. Nope...! Susan's Certificate doesn't give her parents names - NUTS!!
I spent some time in the library this afternoon. I had to go into town so I decided to pop in and check out the MI's - they only had the Angus ones, so I had a look at St. Vigeans, and Inverkeiler, where Mary Mowat and Susan Philip respectively, are buried. Couldn't find them in the book soooo... is it worth going to the graveyards myself, I wonder?
Anyway... I have to go off to Glasgow tomorrow and won't be back until late Friday. Sooooo... if it seems I have dropped off the face of the earth and have given up on this - NOT SO! Just off to help my daughter who is expecting her second baby in just less than three weeks! (baby's due on my birthday, actually! :) ) Her husband has had to go to Oxford to a conference, he couldn't get out of it and so... I have been delegated as 'daughter sitter'! Heheheheee... Anyway, when I get back, I shall get working on this again, and will keep you appraised.
For the moment - thanks for your help, ladies!! It's sure appreciated!
Best wishes to you all,
Kate.
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Oh Kate...I wish I were you...a grandchild. I keep on trying to get
rid of encourage my sons to have a more permanent lifestyle ;D (i.e. get married and have kids!!!!!!!!)
Let us know how it goes.
Mary Ann
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Hello Kate, just to say that the library should get you the Kincardineshire pre 1855 gravestone index if you ask, I've had the Angus one from my library.
Back on the farm name, what is possible is that the modern map only shows the farm as it is now. In times gone by, the farm would have been made up of a number of cottages called "Cotter Touns" hence the name Harriestown and as it seems quite big now, could even have been split into small crofts/farms as you say. Usually called upper. lower, easter, wester etc.
In 1868 the same farm as on the modern ordnance survey, is on the attached map as Harvieston
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/IndexMapPage2.aspx
It's still called Harvieston in 1927, so at some time between 1927 and today the name has been altered.
Thank goodness, we've sorted that out!!
Jean :)
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Just to add my tuppence worth. Both in William Garden's 1774 map of Kincardineshire and John Thomson's map of 1822 it's called Hervieston.