RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Roscommon => Topic started by: tidybooks on Monday 17 September 07 02:09 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
My wife’s great grandfather Martin Tracey married Ann O’Shea on 11th October 1883 in Limerick according to son, John Tracey’s birth certificate. Martin died in Glasgow in 1913 at age of 46 on 7th September 1913. Ann, his widow registered his death and gave Patrick Tracey and Elizabeth Higgins as his parents. Both were deceased.
Patrick Tracey married Elizabeth Higgins 11 Jan 1861 RC Killinvoy and Killmain
They had the following children:-
Anne b. 20 August 1864 Roscommon
Henry b. 12 April 1866 Roscommon
John b. 26 October 1868
Catherine b. 19 June 1870
Elizabeth b. 23 July 1873
James b. 22 October 1875 Roscommon
Bridget b. 6 June 1877
Patrick b. 14 June 1879
All records from LDS IGI site.
Where is Martin, according to his death, he should have been born around 1867. Any ideas how to find him?
He is very elusive to find , I think he came to Glasgow after marriage in 1883, but cannot find him or family in the 1891 or 1901 census.
Tom
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Hiya Tom,
Going by Martin's age when he died there appears to be no arguement about when he was born but did guys marry when they were about sixteen in the 1880s?
Christopher
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Hi Christopher,
I agree what you say about ages, but Ann O'Shea his widow, could not read or write, so she gave that age when registering death. That is only document that gives his age that i have seen. Likewise the parents, it is only her say so, that Patrick and Elizabeth Higgins were given, I have no reason to disagree, but Patrick and Elizabeth registered all other births and more, it makes me a wee bit suspicious.
I was on a Tracey Clan website, http://www.traceyclann.com/, and I searched on marriage of Martin Tracey and one result was Martin Tracey, Limerick, 1st Quarter 1883 5 334, Surely October cannot be in 1st quarter?
Any ideas would be gratefully received.
Tom
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First of all, not all Irish births for that period are on IGI.
Second, assuming 1867 is correct year of birth, not much of a gap between Henry (Apr.1866) and John (Oct.1868)- not impossible but very shortly after Henry's birth and then not long between John's.
Several possiblities (assuming 1867 is correct)- Martin was born in 1867 and not listed on IGI, Martin was a twin of Henry or John and not listed on IGI, or Martin was registered as Henry or John and for some reason went by Martin.
Church baptismal records might help but baptisms can be omitted from the register so not conclusive unless you do actually find a baptism for Martin (which may or may not be in 1867).
However, suspect that Martin was born before 1867 going by marriage in 1883. Quite likely Martin was born c1860-1863 but again, church baptismal records may clear up the mystery.
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Hi Tom,
Saw your post. Here is a list of "Martin Tracey" state registrations for 1864-1870:
Tracy, Martin, Mountbellew, Galway. 1865 19 395
Tracy, Martin, Portumna, Galway. 1868 9 492
Tracy, Martin, Tuam, Galway. 1869 14 587
Treacy, Martin, Borrisokane, Tipperary North. 1869 13 414
Treacy, Martin, Roscommon, Roscommon. 1864 3 330
Treacy, Martin, Thurles, Tipperary. 1865 8 746
Treacy, Martin, Thurles, Tipperary. 1867 18 612
Treasy, Martin, Tuam, 1870 19 583
It may be possible that there is another "Patrick Tracey & Elizabeth Higgins". The recommon page is located at:
http://www.traceyclann.com/files/Roscommon.htm
This page also contains the 1901 census records. I think that they lived in Knockcroghery Village.
Did you sort out the marriage record. Perhaps they got married in 1882.
Regards,
Declan Tracey
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Thanks Declan and Aghadowey etc,
I am beginning to think the Martin could have been his second name, how easy would it be to get marriage certificate of Martin Tracey and AnnO'Shea in Limerick on 11th October 1883, I wonder if he would use the whole name or just Martin. Since he came to Scotland, I have been unable to get him in 1891 and 1901 census. I think I will start searching with his wife's name and see how many are married to Tracey's, regardless of husbands first name.
He was a pipemaker in Glasgow and I saw on the 1901 census that there were a few Tracey's into ppemaking. Could be sone sort of connection there.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
The record numbers refer to place, year, volume and page of the state registration of births and marriages.
You can apply to the Irish or UK authorities for records prior to 1922.
The Irish website is:
http://www.groireland.ie/about_us.htm
The marriage application form is available at:
http://www.groireland.ie/docs/Website_applformM_240203.DOC
Marriage certificates may contain the following information: Date of marriage, name, surname, age, condition (marital status), rank or profession, residence, father’s name and rank or profession of both bride and groom. Also place of marriage, practitioner and witnesses.
The photocopy version of the record is far cheaper but sometimes they can be difficult to read.
Regards,
Dec
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Hi Dec,
I got the marriage certificate from records office in Roscommon,
Registered on 1st February 1883 by John Holmes (registrar) District no 3.
14th Day of October 1882 at Limerick Cathedral
Martin Tracey age 20 Bachelor Pipe Maker stayed at Mungret Street Patrick Tracey (Father) who was a Labourer.
Anne OShea age 18 Spinster No Occupation stayed at Mungret Street John OShea (Father) who was a Pipe Maker.
Martin Tracey made his mark x but Anne was able to write. The Parish Priest was James McCoy and witnesses James White and Mary Anderson.
So Martin was born around 1862, which makes him the oldest in the family but I still cannot find his birth registration. I thought his roots were in Roscommon but not sure now. Any help finding his roots would be great.
Tom
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If he was born in 1862 there will be no birth registration- civil registration of births only started in 1864.
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Hi Aghadowey,
Thanks that explains why he isn't registered and his siblings all born 1864 and later were.
The priest James McCoy married them, I have done some searching and I can see a Priest James McCoy in Bulgaden-Martinstown 1888 to 1906 but difficulty locating a PP James McCoy in Limerick Cathedral, which I think would be St Johns. I am trying to pin down home parish to see if I can get records from there.
Tom
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Hi there,
I've been researching my family tree and the names Patrick Tracey and Ann O'shea and the connection to limerick have all come up.
The information came from my grandmother who comes from glasgow, where Martin and Ann ended up. It seems our trees may be connected.
I would be grateful of any information you have on that line either before Patrick Tracey or after Martin & ann
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Hi there,
Yes, we seem to have some sort of connection, my father in law is grandson of Martin Tracey and Annie O' Shea, he is living in East Kilbride but was brought up in the Garngad area, he was one of a big family, he has sisters who are still alive and living in Glasgow, but all his brothers are deceased.
On ths site we are not allowed to talk about living relatives openly, but I would send you a personnel message (PM) but you have to make 3 posts before I can do so. If you can reply twice to thism I will then PM you, some details.
Tom
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Thanks for the reply.
My grandmother has said that her mother Ann Flanagan (Married name) used to talk of Ann O'shea. Apparently she liked a drink and used to go around regularly proclaiming " if you B*****ds want me, you'll have to come get me"! Unfortunately I have to idea who may be coming.
I am assuming the Tracey's and O'shea's come from her family line as she said she didn't know her biological Father. However she didn't mention if he died or was absent.
My Nan also has said the names Matilda McCabe and a Margaret Whitehead- McCabe were also Grandmother & Great Grandmother of hers but I don't know if it's from the same line. (I suspect it may actually be White-McCabe)
She also said that we were related to the whites, who were pipemakers & had a factory in Glasgow, mentioning some kind of explosion. This would possibly fit in with the Tracey/O'shea line as you mention Martin is recorded as a pipemaker.
I have found a W.White & Sons, Pipemakers 1805-1955. 26-42 Bain St, Glasgow. It's in the Barra's.
Although it says 1805-1955 this site was started in 1867 & completed 1877.
They were apparently the largest pipemakers in Scotland, but am unable find any information on them or the company. Only architectural pictures and refernces to pipes being found.
Any help matching/linking these names would be appreciated.
Many thanks.
Michelle.
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Any Tracey/O'shea information would be great.
Many thanks.
Michelle
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Hi Michelle,
I have replied on a PM with details of my Tracey line, both past and present. I will now study your stuff. I can verify it is the correct Annie O'Shea, Aunt Maggie has a picture of her on her wall, definitely not to be tangled with.
Tom
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Tom,
My grandfather Patrick Tracey, alive and well in Glasgow, is also the grandson of Martin Tracey and Ann O'Shea. I will discuss with him tonight. Who is your father in law? If you have a tree online I would be very grateful for a link.
Darrin Rooney
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Hi Darrin,
I think my father in law spoke to your grandfather a couple of years ago when original thread started. I see you have just joined, a few rules to keep in mind, cannot discuss living people openly, can discuss on pm system, but you need to make 3 posts. So if you reply to this will be 2. Go to another board and make another post, once you get to 3 posts, I will pm you.
Tom
PS I have got online tree, but will pass details over pm system.
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Hi,
Any info on the Tracey and O'Shea family greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Darrin
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I have now found Roman Catholic marriage of Patrick Tracey to Elizabeth Higgins on 11th Jan 1861 , Killinvoy And Killmain, Roscommon, Ireland. This will be before official records commenced so I will not be able to get copy from Irish Records Office, but on IGI when I found that record it says it was an extracted marriage record for locality listed in record.
So is there a record that I would be able to purchase, and would it have bride and groom parents on it, and where do I apply to.
Tom
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RC Parish record from this time are often not very detailed, so there's no guarantee that father's names will be included in the record.
The pay-website of the Irish Family History Foundation (www.rootsireland.ie) has transcripts of some RC Co. Roscommon parishes - but I dont see any RC parish on their list named 'Killinvoy And Killmain'.
update : It looks like Killinvoy And Killmain/Killmeane are civil parishes. There is an RC parish named Killinvoy listed on the Irish Times website.
Shane
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found the parish on the NLI (National Library of Ireland) parish index - it's shown on their list as :
Killinvoy, Killmain & Rahara (Knockcroghery)
It's on microfilm Pos. 4617, and includes baptisms and marriages back to 1841. The notes mention some gaps including around 1858 and 1859.
It seems to be included on the RootsIreland system as 'Knockcroghery (St. John's)'
Shane
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I've just purchased the marriage record from rootsireland. Patrick Tracy to Elizabeth Higgins 11/01/1861. Tom, I'll email you the record. Theres very little additional info on it, just 2 witnesses Michael Moore and Catherine Higgins. Parish is Knockcroghery and marriage is definitely RC. Nothing else noted.
Darrin
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Shane,
Apologies for daft laddy question, but how do you locate the parish index on the NLI. Havent used that site before and tried various searches unsuccessfully. Does this also include images of the microfiche records or do you need to go elsewhere for those.
Many thanks,
Darrin
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The details on the NLI website are an Index to the films. There's no images online.
see : http://www.nli.ie/en/parish-register.aspx
You have to visit the National Library to see the films.
Many RC parish films are available to order in FamilySearch centres.
Shane
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Hi Shane and Darrin,
That's great information about the Irish sites and apart from new information about witnesses, we have no further evidence of Patrick Tracey's parents, would an Irish death certificate carry the parent's names. I don't know date of death yet but that maybe only way of finding out.
Darrin, I had a look at Knockcroghery on Google maps, along the N61 road there is a clay pipe workshop and visitor centre, apparently Knockcroghery, our Patrick and Martin were clay pipe makers apparently. Also Wikipedia mentions a RC church, St Patrick's built circa 1870, which is 9 years after the marriage of Patrick and Elizabeth, so their may have been an older church before.
Tom
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would an Irish death certificate carry the parent's names. I don't know date of death yet but that maybe only way of finding out.
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Irish death certs dont include details of parents - except sometimes as the informant on the death of a child.
see : Details included on a Death Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433043.0.html)
Shane
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Hi Shanew147,
Thanks for the quick answer, will need to think of some other method of determining the correct parents of Patrick Tracey born around 1840.
Tom
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Tom,
My grandfather Patrick can confirm the family links to the Knockcroghery claypipe factory. This was often discussed when he was growing up. The earlier reference in this forum to Whytes (or Whites) factory in Glasgow is also relevant as he can also confirm that his grandfather worked there. Have you seen the Knockcroghery visitor centre website at www.oghamwish.com/claypipe-centre.php
PS. I'm making good progress tonight on Patrick Tracey's (b. 1842) parents and grandparents back to abt. 1800
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Hi Darrin,
That's great especially having confirmation from your grandfather. How did you decide on the 1842 birth, there is also a November 1843 birth, that is what has stopped me from progressing but I don't mind, I have spent last couple of hours finding out about Knockcroghery and local area. I thought our links were in the town of Roscommon, now I find it is from a small village. Much more interesting in my book.
Tom
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Hi,
From the information I have collected:
http://traceyclann.com/files/Roscommon.htm
Patrick/Patricium Trac(e)y m. Eliza/Betty/Elizabeth/Ellizabetham Higgins 11 January 1861 RC Killinvoy and Killmain (LDS) (see 1901 census Knockcroghery Village)
Anne b. 20 August 1864 Roscommon Roscommon (LDS)
Henry b. 12 April 1866 Roscommon Roscommon (LDS)
John b. 26 October 1868 (LDS)
Catherine b. 19 June 1870 (LDS)
Elizabeth b. 23 July 1873 (LDS)
James b. 22 October 1875 Roscommon Roscommon (LDS)
Bridget b. 6 June 1877 (LDS)
Patrick b. 14 June 1879 (LDS)
If you get the State Registration Certificate for a birth after 1864, it will give you the townland that they lived in. From that you should be able to see who lived in that townland in the Griffiths Valuation and Tithe Records.
Here are the details for Henry:
Tracy, Henry Roscommon, Roscommon. 1866 8 409
Also the easiest place to find RC parish record details and maps is John Graham's Irish Times website. Use the sitemap to list the contents of the website. The church parishes for Roscommon are located at:
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/roscommonrc.htm
Regards,
Dec
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Hi Dec,
Thanks for all the info and links, I looked at your site and it must have taken years to get all that info about the Tracy, Treacy, Tracey and all other likenesses.
Patrick/Patricium Trac(e)y m. Eliza/Betty/Elizabeth/Ellizabetham Higgins 11 January 1861 RC Killinvoy and Killmain (LDS) (see 1901 census Knockcroghery Village)
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Here are the details for Henry:
Tracy, Henry Roscommon, Roscommon. 1866 8 409
Can I ask you to what the note (see 1901 census Knockcroghery Village) refers to, I have had a look at Knockcroghery 1901 census, but cannot see what the note is drawing my attention to. On Martin's marriage certificate to Annie O'Shea it states that both his parents were deceased, so would not expect to see anything on 1901 census about them.
Also the 1866 8 409, what does the 8 409 refer to and can you check it online?
Tom
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Hi Tom,
In the 1901 census, there are the rest of the family. In total, there are three families of pipe makers, who I would presume are related. Henry is living with his mother Betty. Do you mean that she had died before the death of Martin in 1913.
In the 1911 census the families appear to have left Ireland as they are not included.
In the Griffiths Valuation, of 1857, there is:
Patrick Tracy Knockcroghery Killinvoy Roscommon
who occupied a house at No.25 in the village.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&familyname=tracy&firstname=patrick&baronyname=&countyname=ROSCOMMON&unionname=&parishname=&Submit.x=55&Submit.y=9
As such, the birth cert of Henry may not give you additional information. However, the Tithe record may help.
The numbers refer to the volume and page number of the book of registration. Details of how to obtain state certs are on the following webpage:
http://www.traceyclann.com/files/Birth%20Register%20in%20Ireland.htm
Regards,
Dec
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Tom,
I had made a leap of faith on you confirming Patrick b.26/02/1842, therefore the Patrick b. 11/11/1843 means we still need to find the right one - apologies! In fact there appears to be a 3rd Patrick b. 04/03/1844. However (i) he is from Lissonuffy, Roscommon which is a little bit away from Knockcroghery and (ii) he would have been only 16 when married, therefore I suspect we can rule him out. I have the 2 baptism extracts from rootsireland on both the 1842 and 1843 Patricks. The 1842 Patrick has parents Michael Tracy and Brigid Rorke, informants John Bolan and Mary Bolan. The 1843 has parents Patrick Treacy and Mary Kelly, informants Denis Mullin and Brigid Kenndy. Both recorded as Knockcroghery Parish.
Darrin
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Hi Dec,
I was confusing myself between Martin's marriage at Limerick in 1882 and his death in 1913 at Glasgow, when certificate says both parents deceased, however Betty's age on 1901 census is 50 and she was married 1861 so she would be 10 at marriage. Henry's age is out by 8 years but Patt's is about right. So not convinced that this is our family yet.
I thought that Elizabeth (Betty) Higgins was born Apr 12, 1841 to parents Martin Higgins and Anne McVee, however I picked her because she would have been 20 at marriage, there were other possibilities but I thought they were too young.
Doubting Thomas
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Tom,
Regards the 1901 Census entry for Betty, Henry and Patt, I've just been reading the following on http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/1901census/
"5. Keep in mind that age data for some adults was in many situations an approximate age. There were many adults who reported being 50, 60, 70 or 80 rather than their actual age."
Beginning to think they must be the correct Traceys - what do you think ?
Darrin
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Dear all, the current Knockcroghery Design Statement (large pdf file, easily googled) mentions that "the Census at that time [1837] indicated that there were 31 households n Knockcroghery.."
Does this mean the 1837 Census might be available from somewhere ?
Also - does anyone have, or know how to get the "Form B1" image from the 1901 Census for Knockcroghery. The images available at census.nationalarchives.ie/ for all Knockcroghery entries (under "View Census Images" alongside the search findings) I've tried only have the 2nd page, listing House Nos. 18 through 27. Very interested in the first 18 houses as I think it might give some helpful clues.
Darrin
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Hi Darrin and all,
Yes, I think the family in census can be ours, but we just don't have the ability to say yes for definite. f it is ours, Patrick must have died before 1901 census, we can look for a death certificate or monumental inscription.
Looks like the B1 form, was put there as an example, you can't change parameters. However you can search if you click on
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Scregg/Knockcroghery/
it gives Knockcroghery in house order if that is what you want.
Tom
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Hi,
Henry is a very unusual name among the Traceys. Between 1864 and 1885, there was only one born in Connacht. As such, he is a very good marker for tracing the family. I would only trust baptism or birth certs for determining ages.
With regard to the Griffiths Valuation of 1857, if this is the correct Patrick, I would presume that he must have been of legal age. As such, he would have been born before 1840.
Also, there was a number of Traceys living in the adjoining Civil Parish of Kilmeane and neighbouring Civil Parish of Kilteevan.
The Tithe Record would clarify matters.
Regards,
Dec
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Wondered whether traditional naming convention might help find the right Patrick. You noted a little doubt earlier over the correct Elizabeth Higgins b. 1841. Of the 3 potential Elizabeths on the IGI, I agree the b.1841 seems the most viable (the other 2 are less viable on account of either age or distance). Her parents of course are Martin Higgins and Anne McEvee, whilst our elusive Patrick’s parents are either Patrick and Mary (as per Patrick b.1843) or Michael and Brigid (as per b.1842). It seems that Patrick b.1843 is the more likely as it would follow that Patrick and Elizabeth named their first son after her father, their first daughter after his mother, and second daughter after her mother. Convention would normally dictate the first son after the fathers father, but perhaps felt that 3 generations of Patricks was too much and hence went with her father – and they did eventually call their last son Patrick. By contrast, looking at the other Patrick then there is no regard to convention as his fathers name was never used (Michael) and the mothers name not used until the 6th and last daughter.
The slight concern I have is that one of the other Elizabeths, b.1845, well her mother is Mary Henery. This could well be where the unusual name Henry comes in (2nd son).
Darrin
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I share Dec's presumption that the 3 Tracey families are likely related. They are all living just a few house numbers apart (see Toms link to the 1901 Knockcroghery census ordered by house number) and would imagine they are cousins.
We are still trying to determine the correct Patrick (b1842 versus b. 1843) who married Betty and suspect Mary Tracey of House no. 10 could be Mary Coffey the wrong Patricks wife, m. 12/12/1843 Strokestown. Their son was named Michael (was he the eldest son?) as was his father (good naming convention match) so I'm hopeful this would exclude him and confirm our Patrick as b. 1843.
There is a death record for a Mary Tracey on the IGI d. 1903 aged 68 which seems right. I'm hoping the original shows her maiden name as Coffey. Thought I could get this from rootsireland but cant find it. Anyone know if this can be got from elsewhere online ?
Darrin
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There is a death record for a Mary Tracey on the IGI d. 1903 aged 68 which seems right. I'm hoping the original shows her maiden name as Coffey. Thought I could get this from rootsireland but cant find it. Anyone know if this can be got from elsewhere online ?
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Irish death certs dont include maiden surnames. You can order a copy of the cert from the GRO using the references in the Index.
see : Details included on a Death Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433043.0.html)
Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433040.0.html)
I think that death reference you mentioned is from the BMD Index, rather than the IGI. The BMD Index is based on the index of Civil records.
RootsIreland has mostly parish records, and most of the details are from before 1900. RC registers rarely include records of death / burial.
Shane
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Shane, many thanks for the helpful guidance. Yes the death record was from the BMD, I had assumed the IGI meant everything from the familysearch website.
Darrin
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Do you or anyone know the children's names of Martin Tracey and Ann O'Shea? I came across an old letter with a brief note how they were from Ireland and came to live in Glasgow. Im just wondering if who you all are speaking of is a relation.
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Hi Weelass,
Got your PM, thought I would reply here as well, in case, others may want the information as well.
"Hi Weelass,
I have got a fair idea of all the children of Martin Tracey and Annie O'Shea and their marriages. My wife is a granddaughter of their son, John who married Sarah Duffy.
Their children were Catherine, Patrick, who married Margaret McCabe, James Tracey who married Mary McGuire, William, John who married Sarah Duffy, Henry 1900-1902, Ann 1902-1903, Henry who married Ann Wilkinson.
Do these names help you in anyway.
Tom"
Tom