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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: coffeecup on Saturday 29 September 07 23:34 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me find more information about the family of Zechariah Lloyd born 1859 around Llantysilio Corwen area please? What I have found as follows;
He married Mary Ann Roberts in 1880 at St John Rhosymedre. In 1881 they lived at 7 Queen St Ruabon with his step daug Ann Roberts aged 2.
1871 RG10/5682/29 pg 2-3 Vron Cottage Llangar Cymmo Corwen Merionethshire.
Margreat Lloyd head widow age 89 born Bettws Denbighshire
Meriam Lloyd 40 daug Denbighshire
Emanuel Lloyd 18 son "
Zacaria Lloyd 14 son "
Margreat Lloyd 4 daug (no occupations mentioned)
1851 HO107/2509/375 pg 9 Vron Llantysilio township of Cymmo Corwen Denbighshire.
Ann Lloyd head widow 89 pauper born Denbighshire
Margaret 66 daug unmarried charwoman born Bettws
John 64 son pauper unmarried born Denbighshire
Mariam 24 unmarried daug at home "
John Roberts son 2
I am so confused! Firstly I'm trying to find them on the 1861 & 41 census and don't know what county? Denbighshire or Merionethshire? Zechariah said he was born Llangollen on the later censuses. Would this be under Corwen registration district?
Secondly the way they have put the relationships has to be wrong. It's impossible for all those to be sons and daughters of the head of household from their ages. :-\ I'm assuming that in 1871 the boys are Mariams children but it doesn't state if she was married or not.
Zechariah Lloyd was my grandma's grandad. She knows that his brothers had biblical names, think Emanuel would be fitting for one. I really would like to find the other.
I'd be so grateful for some assistance to help me unravel this one please. The support on this board has been so generous. Thanks.
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Hi coffeecup
From the info you have given I would say that in 1851 you have
Ann Lloyd age 89 - mother of
Margaret, age 66 - daughter of Ann
John Lloyd age 64 - brother of Margaret?
Mariam Lloyd age 24 - daughter of Margaret, grand daughter of Ann
John Roberts age 2 - possible son of Mariam?
By 1871 Ann Lloyd has died and it is Margaret who is Head of the house
John (Margaret's brother) has more than likely passed away as well
that leaves Meriam/Mariam with her three children:
Emanuel\Zacaria\Margreat
Some of the 1841 and 1861 census sheets for this area are missing. Link to registration info is here:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Llantysilio/index.html info on Llantysilio
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Llangollen/index.html info on Corwen
There is a birth for Zechariah Lloyd in Corwen - GRO reference 1859, Quarter 4, volume 11b, page 365. I couldn't see one for Emanuel on North Wales BMD am not sure if Corwen BMDs are on there. There is a male Lloyd in the index for 1856, which ancestry says is registered in Corwen, but I couldn't see it on the hand written index as it is very hard to read.
My PRs for Corwen are early ones so perhaps Gadget or William can discover more for you at the Clwyd FHS
Heather
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in 1881 there is this Emmanuel
Rhyd Onen Issaf, Llantysilio - Cynmo, Denbigh
states born 1852 Llantysilio, Denbigh, Wales
I'm confused as to the relationships :P
...could Mariam be a daughter-in-law as well?
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Purely speculation but something to look into...
1881 census Llangollen - Llangollen Fechan, Denbigh
Robert LLOYD 1808 Cynwyd, Merioneth
Miriam LLOYD 1829 Cynwyd, Merioneth, Wales
On same page only... PURE SPEC as there are a few other marraiges to mirriums as well...
December Q. 1846
Robert Lloyd
Miriam Roberts
Holywell vol. 27 p. 379
ugh not paying attention, am I...? :P :P :P
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I think I found Emanuel Lloyd's birth details. It was listed under Manuel Lloyd ??? Don't know how I missed it before ::) Sorry!
Anyway here is the GRO reference: 1853 Corwen, Q4, vol 11b, page 344.
Suggest you send for the birth certficates to get the parents details and see where that leads you.
Heather
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Hi :)
am so confused! Firstly I'm trying to find them on the 1861 & 41 census and don't know what county? Denbighshire or Merionethshire? Zechariah said he was born Llangollen on the later censuses. Would this be under Corwen registration district?
Llantysilio is very close to Llangollen - about 3 miles to the West. Some of mine came from there (Jones would you believe ::) :( ). In some Censuses they are listed in Denbighshire and in others they are in Merionethshire. The Reg District for the area was Corwen.
Have you got everything you need, now?
I do have the Corwen, Llangollen, Carrog and Llantysilio parish records - but they don't all go that far.
Gadget
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Not all that much, I'm afraid, except to confirm that Cymo is a township in Llantysilio - often called Llandysilio or Llantysilio yn ial (Yale)
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Llantysilio/index.html
Also - my piccie of Llantysilio Church
(http://some-ancestors.rootschat.net/assets/images/autogen/a_DM02.jpg)
Also, I believe this is them on the 1841:
Vron, Cymmo, Llandysilio, Denbighshire HO107/1405 Folio 9 Page 2
Lloyd written as Loayd
John , 45-49, pauper
Ann, 70-74, pauper
Margaret, 50-54
Miriam, 15-19
all born County
I think that it might be worth me PMing our friend Paul for a look up of the post 1812 Llantysilio records for some births :)
I'll keep looking through but records are about to be packed!
Gadget
PS I don't think Corwen RD is on the North Wales BMD yet :-\
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Also, I've just noticed the reference to Betws - this could be one of three places - Bettws yn Rhos - near Abergele; Betws Gwerfyl Goch - between Bala and Rhuthin but in Merionethshire; and Betws y coed - in Caernarfonshire. There might just be other, smaller Betws but I'm not sure :-\
Gadget
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Gosh thanks everyone. Fantastic stuff! Many pairs of eyes are better than one.
Gadget I thought I'd worn you out with those Jacksons? (Decided to work on these Lloyds whilst waiting for that marriage cert back). Thanks again. Well spotted that 1841 census. I really couldn't relate to any of the Parishes listed to know where to look. Seems a mistranscription error then. Well done and thank you. Lovely little picture of the Church too! May I save that one? Enjoyed your web site too :D
Thanks for the GENUKI links. It doesn't explain why they swapped counties, but the parish changes are clear. :-\ I looked in Llantisilio, Corwen, Llangar and Llangollen in 1861 and found nothing. But Corwen is so faded it's barely readable.
Thanks for the birth records. Heather I will send for Zechariah Lloyd. Manuel Lloyd, goodness me, thanks, will try using that when searching more for him. J.J that find in 1881 was most helpful.
I wanted to try and figure out what the relationships were, and to know where, in which Parish I should try to find baptisms and earlier marriages to find out. Will study GENUKI then. Mariam is going to be too early for the GRO and I'm aware of the lack of Welsh entries on the IGI. Maybe she was a daughter in law, husband had died, or elsewhere, and she was regarded as a daughter. Same with Margaret. Maybe they were illigitimate. Someone in there must have married a Roberts at some point. An unknown daughter. It's horribly inconclusive from the census.
So if Zechariah said Llangollen, it included Llantysilio. That's promising. Bettws not so obvious then. Margaret seemed keen to get that right on the census, everyone else is just 'Denbighshire'.
Crumbs! Paupers in 1841, 51 and probably 71, all VRON Cottage, has to be Vron in 1861 too then. Makes you wonder how they lived so long! Worked for food maybe?
Thanks all, very very much appreciated.
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Hi Steph
You are welcome to the little photo :)
I walked around Llantysilio and some of the outer reaches of the parish about 2 years ago. I walked up a very steep hill where my ancestors lived and thought of them walking down the muddy lane/track just to get to anywhere. I then went a bit further up and walked across a sandy dried out stretch of moorland to get to where they had live in 1841.
Makes you wonder about their lives and their hardships - rich man in his castle, poor man at the gate stuff.
Gadget
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:D Great photo of the wee old church, Gadget! !!!!
Where was the young John Roberts in 1871? There are 2 in 1881, One 1847 18 in Bedw Uchaf, Llantysilio - Cynmo, with a family...and one a year younger & single/ a visitor in Sun Inn Rhewl, Llantysilio...
The marriage cert might clear up an issue, but then is the married one the right one.... ::) J.J.
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Aww Gadget, I wish my grandma had stayed in Wales! I had a look at Llantysilio on the map as an aerial photo. It's beautiful!!!!!!!!!!
J.J. The Roberts connection is a mystery. I'm just looking through 1881 census now at Llanytisilio after your find, I'll look out for them. Which marriage? Have a overlooked something?
I've just found this. On the page before Emmanuel.
VRON Llantysilio
Miriam Holmes 58 head widow pauper born Llantysilio
Margaret A Holmes 14 daug scholar born Corwen Merionmethshire
What do you reckon?
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Which census was that, Steph?
If it was the 1881 then it's a strong possible for your Miriam :)
If Miriam married, it would be on the BMDs somewhere and daughter Margaret A - after grandmother and grt grandmother maybe - Margaret Ann :-\
Gadget
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Miriam Lloyd and John Holmes - same page - marriage - Ruthin, June quarter, 1866, Vol 11b Page 621
:D :D :D
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1881 census Gadget RG11/5540/27 pg 2 and 3
Yes!!!!!!!!! Then was she a widow in 1871???? Why did they not use her married name I wonder? Where was her hubby?
N.Wales BMD has the marriage at St Tecla Llandegla.
At least (when funds permit) I know I can find who her father was off the certificate, if she had one that is.
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.. and the Margaret, aged 4, in 1871 was Margaret Holmes.
I just wonder if they wrote down their info or dictated it and someone just 'doed' it :(
we'll get there :)
Now we need that Paul to do some Parish record searching ;D
Gadget
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Hmmm? indeed. See it really pays off to ask the experts ;D
Just to add, Margaret Ann Holmes seems to be 'in keeping with the family' and can be found in 1901 a laundress aged 30 at Penycoed Llangollen single, with a son John W Holmes aged 8.
I'm guessing that they must have dictated it. Probably asked the 89 year old from the answers given.
Right then, off to see what happened to her daddy.
Thanks again :-*
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Hello,
Where's the next best if there's nothing in Llantysilio, Gadget?
I think I might have looked for this one before, the name John Holmes sounds familiar :)
Paul.
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Hi Paul, anything that turns up will be greatly appreciated.
It seems this family lived between 1841 and 1881 at Vron Llantysilio.
I think the census is missing for this part of Llantysilio 1861. Various sources are not recognising Vron. Sure there should be more pages, only 6 found. No Cymmo either, can't find it in GENUKI to understand it, (I'm bleary eyed though) It's stated on the census as a parish, but not in the listings, any wonder I'm still soooo confused about this? :-[
It's Zechariah Lloyd 1859 who's number one on the wanted list, being in my grandma's living memory. I'm assuming at this stage that is his mother is Mariam abt 1823-7, brother Emmanuel 1853, sister Margaret Ann Holmes 1868 and step father John Holmes (missing). Mariam's mother is Margaret abt 1785 Bettws Ruthin? father Mr (unknown) and Margaret's mother is Ann abt 1762? widow to Mr (unknown) Lloyd. Wow, never had anyone born that early on a census before!
Did that make sense?
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Hello,
Where's the next best if there's nothing in Llantysilio, Gadget?
I think I might have looked for this one before, the name John Holmes sounds familiar :)
Paul.
Hi Paul
I would think the younger ones are Llantysilio.
Betws is the only location so far identified other than Llantysilio - but which one :-\ If not then adjacent parishes to Llantysilio are Llangollen, Corwen Bryneglwys, Llandegla and Minera.
Gadget
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I don't know any of the family, but to help your searches, this might be useful.
Emmanuel was often shortened, not just to Manuel, but to 'Manny' - as in Manny Shinwell, and I knew a Manny Williams in Ruabon.
Also don't confuse the various "Llantisilio"s. Any which are sometimes called "yn Ial" are not the same ones as any in Denbighshire. "Yn Ial" means in Yale, and despite the Yale connection of Wrexham, are in Flintshire.
The Yale of Wrexham is the Family - Elihu, buried in Wrexham parish churchyard, after whom Yale University is named.
"Ial" is an area of what was Flintshire.
Rachel
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I have to disagree with you there, Rachel.
The family are definitely in the Llantysilio near Llangollen. Genuki, which I have referred Steph to earlier on the thread quite clearly states:
A parish in the Union of Corwen, hundred of Yale, county of Denbigh; 2 miles (NW by W) from Llangollen, containing 842 inhabitants. ..... It is pleasantly situated on the river Dee, which forms its southern boundary, and is skirted on the north by the small river Merenion; on the west it is bounded by the parish of Corwen; and on the east by a small river running through the Vale of Crucis. The surface is boldy undulated, and in some parts mountainous; the soil, though various, is in general fertile, and the surrounding scenery is strikingly diversified, and in many parts beautifully picturesque. A chain of mountains of romantic appearance and rich in mineral wealth runs through the centre of the parish, which is also intersected by the turnpike road leading from Llangollen to Ruthin."
[A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, 1833 & 1849, Samuel Lewis]
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Llantysilio/index.html
These Genuki pages were prepared by Vic Roberts a very knowledgeable member of the Clwyd Family History Society who knows far more about our area than any of us.
It is the only Parish in Denbighshire called Llantysilio (Llandysilio, Llantysilio yn Ial) and they are clearly there - see the info from the censuses.
Reference to Flintshire will only confuse things.
Regards
Gadget
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Hi, all the Lloyd baptisms I could see in Llantysilio 1819-1900
Children of William and Gwen.
Jan 3 1819. William.
Aug 12 1821. Ann.
Nov 14 1824 Robert.
March 10 1827. Mary.
April 10 1831. John Thomas.
Thomas and Sarah.
Nov 12 1825. John.
Sep6 1829. Henry.
Oct 2 1831. Thomas.
Oct 4 1832. Ann IllegitimateD/O Edward Roberts and Grace Lloyd.
June 22 1851. Anne.D/O Morris and Ruth.
July 19 1873 Margaret Jane D/O Hannah and John.
April24 1898. Edward Evan. Illegitimate S/O Mary Jane.
Aug 26 1900. Walter Henry S/O Robert Henry and Emily Sophia.
July 10 1864 Margaret Ann D/O Miriam.
Llangollen baptism.
Born May 4 1892. baptised Aug 16 1893. John William. Illegitimate S/O Margaret Ann Holmes. 5 Brook St, Penllyn, Llangollen.
I'll check if this marriage is Llandegla or Ruthin ( I had both index's out at the same time)
June 4 1866.
John Holmes. full age. bachelor. Hawker. Pont??ygt?. Father, William. Deceased.
Miriam Lloyd(X). Spinster. Llandegla. Father, John. Deceased.
Witnesses. J G Humphries and ??????Owen.
Llandegla burial. John Lloyd Dec 30 1852. Age 38 years.
Paul
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Paul
8) 8) 8)
Lots there for Steph to work through. You're pretty good - or have I told you that before :)
Gadget
Added - I'll check if this marriage is Llandegla or Ruthin ( I had both index's out at the same time)
June 4 1866.
John Holmes. full age. bachelor. Hawker. Pont??ygt?. Father, William. Deceased.
Miriam Lloyd(X). Spinster. Llandegla. Father, John. Deceased.
It's down as Ruthin on the GRO Index
Just wondering if they just registered the Zach and Emmanuel births but not baptised - or maybe Llangollen/Llandegla
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Hi, C.C. I see everyone has been busy solving your puzzle...
Sorry I missed the Miriam in the next household... ::) I looked, you know....
brain elsewhere as I said.... ::) Now that you know Miriam was a Spinster, the Robert's lad isn't likely a huge concern anymore...and likely will get pieced together somewhere else...have fun sorting out all your new info... J.J.
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I wasn't expecting a look up within 24 hours! You're a generous bunch on this board! Paul that's really helpful. Thank you so very much ;D
Interesting stuff indeed!
First mystery then, Margaret Ann was not John Holmes's daughter. She was a few years younger than previously recorded.
How interesting that she took his name then in later years. Must have regarded him as 'dad'. Or decided to create a name for herself where one was lacking. Wonder where he got to in 1871 then? Died or off out in the streets of Llangollen hawking of all thngs!
So Miriam's father was John Lloyd? Margaret a daughter in law then. Somewhere out there is a marriage of John Lloyd to Margaret (yet to be known).
Llandegla. Must look that one up and find out.
Thanks so much, the pieces little by little will fit together. What lovely friendly helpful people you are here!
PS that's £7 you have just saved me there with that marriage look-up to learn all that. My Lloyd ancestors were paupers remember.........(say no more)
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I found a John Holmes given as born in Hereford in c 1842 Hawker,a Lodger in Monmouth Monmouthshire in 1861.
RG9/3988/4/4.
I also found a Birth in the Hereford District in 1840,GRO Reference;Volume 26,Page 181.I found no sign of him though in 1841 or 1851.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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There aren't a lot of Lloyds on the 1881-(within the same area as the Holmes ) but saw an Edward, altho not a biblical name...and this time I paid more attention and he is less than a dozen homes from the two John Roberts mentioned earlier ( House 8 & 10 in the homes previous)...so all may tie in with your gang somewhere...cousins or something, perhaps...
The way things are going, here...wouldn't hold that the two in the household are married ...could still be brother and sister with John a widow.... :P :D
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J.J. - hate to disillusion you but Roberts were two a penny there. There's someone in Melbourne who's got the whole list of Roberts in that area - i did have them somewhere.
We Roberts get everywhere ;D
Gadget
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J.J there is this though: Zechariah Lloyd married a Mary Ann Roberts in 1880 at Rhosymedre. She was also born 1859 in the general Llangollen area. I've not got as far as her yet. Too many when the Parish history is still like wading through mud to me. At least as you say Lloyds are less common.
I've just looked through 1861 Llandegla and Trefyd Bychain to see if they are there. No but there was a Fron....is that the same as Vron? with an Edwards family (butcher). At the end of the township the ennumerator had crossed out the last family, and written...''Entry 104 in the Parish of Llantysilio''. Sure enough there is one page for that district 11 Llantysilio, and the other district 12, doesn't contain the Lloyds. If they were at Vron in 51 and 71 then surely there in 61? :-\ :-\ :-\ Where on earth is it?
William I will certainly have a look at that! The Hawker alerts interest! Mariam was born about 1825. Do you think she caught herself a younger man?
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Just sent for Zechariah's birth certificate. Have to wait until 9th October. ::)
Fingers crossed that it will have an address too, as it's only 2 years before 1861 census.
Thanks so much everybody for your input. The moral support is priceless.
;D ;D ;D
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Wow coffeecup, the "team" has really been busy over the past 24 hours since I last checked in!!
A couple of thoughts about Betws. The Betws Gwerfyl Goch is by far the closest one to Fron or Cymmo/Llantysilio - probably about 12 miles as the crow flies! For your info here are a couple of links
Info on parish registers for Betws/Merioneth in Dolgellau:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MER/MER_PR.html
Genuki link:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MER/BettwsGwerfylGoch/index.html
and a map
http://www.multimap.com/maps/?&t=l&map=53.0070455207211,-3.44408508731419|13|4&loc=GB:53.0070455207211:-3.44408508731419:13&dp=841#t=l&map=52.99679,-3.32049|13|4&dp=841&loc=GB:53.0070455207211:-3.44408508731419:13
If I've done the map link right you should have Betws in the red circle on the extreme left and Rhewl on the right (close to the bottom of the sliding bar on the right - at the top of the horseshoe of the river ) Cymmo is just to the west of Rhewl.
Hope this helps
Heather
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"the Llantysilio near Llangollen."
Hello Gadget - Thanks for the reply, I am not saying that the Llantysilio you are talking about is not the one near Llangollen, but when looking for places, that it is wise to consider other places with the same, or similar, name. One thing is certain too, the transcriptions of the census returns are often very poor indeed, especially for Wales as they are often done by people with no knowledge of Wales or Welsh. One doesn't necessarily have to speak Welsh to be any good at it, but a knowledge of Welsh place-names should be a pre-requisite for anyone doing these transcriptions.
I lived in the Ruabon area for a very long time, and am greatly interested in Local History wherever I live. I even ran a local history society before they were fashionable. I know the Llantysilio, having passed through it on my way from Melin Y Wig, to teach in Acrefair for many months. I have never heard this Llantysilio called "yn Ial' before. But your reference from Genuki does say that it is in the "hundred of Yale".
It would be good to have some maps of the area attached to the site. I have one of Melin Y Wig, but the scan is so poor that the details are virtually unreadable.
Rachel
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Heather thanks for the links. Worked a treat. I clearly see where Bettws G.G. is. It does seem likely that it is the right place. Easy to make your way down what is now the A5 towards Llantysilio. The fact that Paul here did find Margeret Anns baptism in that Parish is another reassurance that it is the correct Llantysilio.
What needs to be establised is if Margaret married into the Lloyd family, and if she was Mariam's mother. She is the one who put Bettws as her birthplace. I suppose it's more likely that if she did marry John Lloyd it would be around there perhaps, the brides home rather than the grooms? It's interesting and frustrating that none of the older family members appeared on Pauls look up list. They were not specific at all in telling the registrar where they were born, but this is a reoccuring problem.
I think it's extremely likely that they were bapitised. If you name your sons Emanuel and Zechariah you're going to be following Bibical Law pretty closely I would imagine?
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Hi Steph. the Zachariah Lloyd married1880 Rhosymedre, his dad is Elias Lloyd. Is he yours?
Paul
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Hi Paul, there can't be too many Zechariah Lloyd's marrying in 1880 Rhosymedre so without having details of it I would say yes at this stage, that's really extremely interesting......yes he has got to be! Wife should be Mary Ann Roberts?
I had to decide whether to send for birth or marriage cert and have just sent off for the birth......you've found the marriage there Paul?
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Hi Steph, I'm confusing myself, I thought Zachariah's dad should have been John :-[. Here you go.
Rhosymedre. September 27 1880.
Zachariah Lloyd(X). 21. bachelor. Labourer. Pentredws?. Father, Elias. Lab.
Mary Ann Roberts(X).21. Spinster. ?efumaus. Father, Evan. Lab.
Witnesses. John Roberts and Ellen Roberts.
(X)=Did not sigh made mark.
Paul.
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;D hee, hee...there's that John Roberts again :-X ... :D
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Yes, Gadget!..they seem to have just DOED it ;D ( doo-dooed it?)
June 4 1866.
John Holmes. full age. bachelor. Hawker. Pont??ygt?. Father, William. Deceased.
Miriam Lloyd(X). Spinster. Llandegla. Father, John. Deceased.
Witnesses. J G Humphries and ??????Owen.
Paul
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Good grief Paul that's brilliant! There I was tossing up a coin for which to send for and you come up with the marriage details like magic! Superstar! 8) 8) 8)
Well then...........now I can start looking for Mary Ann Roberts too, this is great.
Who the heck is Elias Lloyd then? This birth certificate is going to be very interesting when it arrives, maybe Mariam is not Zechariah's mother after all? What a confusing family this one is!
Oh I do enjoy this board so much! You guys are the greatest! ;D ;D ;D
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Pentredws?.
Just arrived back from Scotland and am travel weary BUT I believe this will be Pentredwr - just to the east of Llantysilio towards Llangollen - before you go up to the Horseshoe Pass. One of my school friends lived there 8)
I'm wondering about the Roberts' names. They ring some very loud bells. I'll check up on my main line over the next few day :o
Gadget
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The Marriage entry from the Rhosymedre Parish Registers states Zachariah Lloyd's Father to be an Elias JONES.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Hi Gadget, hope Scotland was good?
Thanks for clearing that up. I've just been looking in GENUKI and Llantysilio also listed under Montgomeryshire. Some major boundary swapping going on in the past?!
Talk about having the info right under your nose? After Paul's gem found that Evan Roberts was living next door to Zecharish and daughter Mary Ann Lloyd in Queen Street Ruabon in 1881. RG11/5541/29/24. Bingo!!!! ;D
This is going off a bit I know but it's just so interesting I have to tell.....Evan Roberts was born in Llanwyddn Montgomeryshire. Quick look in GENUKI tells me this was the village that Liverpool flooded in 1880 to make the reservoir. Am I right? Remember from years ago when there was a drought people taking a walk around the ruined homes! Wow!
Just got that William!!!!!!!!!!!!! RIGHT! Elias JONES!!! Okay, gotcha. Hmmmmm!?
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Interestingly there is an Elias Jones on the very next page of the Census to the Lloyds at Llantisilio in 1851.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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The Montgomery Llantysilio is a different one, Steph. Yours was only ever in Denbighshire but in the Corwen (Merioneth)Poor Law Union. Just as Chirk and Llansilin were always in Denbighshire but in the Oswestry PL Union ::) ::) ::)
Great fun - took me years to get it sorted. My Mum and Dad got married in the same place that I was born. Their marriage cert was Oswestry, my Birth Cert was Wrexham. This is the stuff of FH complexity and conundrum :-\
Gadget :)
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The Marriage entry from the Rhosymedre Parish Registers states Zachariah Lloyd's Father to be an Elias JONES.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
Thanks W. R. I'll check that. I must admit this one is confusing me a bit.
Paul.
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Confusion Paul?Its the name of the game!
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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ha ha ha it's not just me then? Thanks Gadget, the descriptions sometimes on GENUKI don't particularly distingush one place from another, and yes it's confusing! Ask me about St Helens but then that would be dull, this is much more fun........
William thank you for spotting that. I just stuck his name in on the 1851 census and my heart sank when I saw how many there were, and yet again which parish to pick out from the list. That sounds very promising. Well spotted again. :-*
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hmmmm? not sure about him William, Elias Jones, he's only 11 and Mariam's 24. I suppose he would grow up a bit by 1859 when Zechariah was born, but never say never. Thanks again.
After thought..............I don't know yet if Mariam is his mother so you might be right?
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A little story, Steph, about my discovery of my Llantysilio ancestors :)
When the 1881 census came on line, I found my great Grandmother's birthplace had been transcribed as Llandisilan, Denbighshire. I didn't have access to the originals at that stage. Now where on earth was it - I tried Llanelidan, Llansilin, etc. and couldn't find anything. I then searched for all the places that sounded/ looked anything like it in Denbighshire and the neighbouring counties ::)
Eventually, I did get hold of the film of the 1881 and to me it looked like Llandisilio. Bingo - I knew that place. I'd been there. My Mum always said that some of her ancestors were from 'near the Llandelgla Moors'. I did find her family with the help of a pair of wonderful Canadians who had transcribed all the Denbs and Merionethshire 19th century censuses.
So - trust me, I know the problems and the Llantysilios ;D
Gadget
PS - what I forgot to add was that she'd married in 1873 and died before the 1891 census, so the 1881 was the only info I had to go on apart from some snippets in the family bible - their wedding cert and a note of her parents' deaths at 'Tan y coed' and their rough ages. But her parents were Robert and Margaret Jones ( :( and there were lots of places/houses called Tan y coed :-\ :-\ :-\
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Thanks Gadget,
I'm so happy to hear that you got there in the end. ;D
I'd just nipped off to make a coffee and was thinking to myself how remarkable it is to find out all this info so quickly really, and how people used to get on before all this came online. I can see now why it used to take years.
Without your help and your access to personal records though, it proves that it cannot all be done online without help. I am very appreciative of your input. I can't just pop down to the library from here as I have done with other branches. This community is fantastic. To have access to such experience is much valued. ;D
My family are just confusing the issue. Grandma saying that Llantysilio is the one that ends in ......gogogoch, I'm not listening to a word of it anymore. As much as my Jackson ancestors were supposed to be Scottish you will recall?!
Ironic that Canadians sorted out the Welsh census records! :o
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Paul, can I ask again please? The marriage didn't happen to give Elias Jones's occupation did it? Might help to pin point him. I found an Elias Jones a traveller coal miner in Ruabon................happen to just be passing through when the dirty deed was done?
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Elias Jones's occupation was given as Labourer.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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;) it's hard enough to keep up with the Lloyds & the Roberts, let alone the Joneses ::) ( baaaaaad ) I guess the father was named without a marriage taking place, then? Back when I was looking through the bmd for corwen, there was a birth and death of an Urias Jones Lloyd 1861, but as Gadget says there are tons of Roberts and likely even more Jones than you can shake a stick at.... ( :P whatever THAT expression means! ;D )
;D So, now I am curious... was there a marriage listed for Emmanuel, and who might be the father? One in 1883 Corwen Marriages June Q / 11b 593
and another a decade later
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J.J. very clever! I hadn't spotted that marriage. Oh gosh yes who was the daddy? Must have a look at that one!!! I wonder if that Urias scraped onto a census? Trouble is the Lloyds are AWOL in 1861.
William thanks once again for the double check, Elias just a labourer then? Hmmm that narrows it down :o
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J J the 1893 marriage at St Trillo Llandrillo is correct to Gwen Davies. They're on the 1901 census at Cynwdd Llangar RG13/5247/5/2. Place of birth and age match. So thanks very much for that.
Two possible brides for 1883 at same church. Probably him, first marriage maybe? Either Hannah Davies or Margaret Roberts. Have to work on finding them now.
Great stuff! ;D
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:-[ sorry...c.c. now that I check my notes....( need a lot of notes for this one :D) apparently it was just a death for Urias.... ::) ....Gotta love these interesting families....
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Cynwdd Llangar RG13/5247/5/2
So we'bve moved further west now - we'll get to Llyn Tegid before Christmas :)
I've got the PRs for there too :D
And no Roberts/Jones jokes, please - it's a bit too close to home.
Nearly all my lines end in Joneses around Bala Lake :(
No wonder my cousin Tom Burgess called that Muskoka settlement, Bala ::)
Primordial swamp!
Gadget
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Gadget I couldn't possibly comment, Jones Roberts, it's inevitable gonna have 'em in there somewhere....where is Llyn Tegid ha ha ha I'm lost! :-[
This is digressing a bit but as were onto the Lloyd family connections????
I've been looking again at Zecahriah Lloyd's wife Mary Ann's family, Roberts.
Got two possible marriages. Evan Roberts - 1853 to Mary Griffiths, and 1855 Mary Roberts (would you believe it?). Anyhow, they're at Trevor Issa Llangollen in 1861. RG9/4312/40/22.
Evan Roberts head, puts his place of birth as Llanwyddn Montgomeryshire. I've just paid a fiver to access records on familyhistoryonline.net as it seems parish records for there are very well covered. I got a baptism out of it for Evan Roberts 1832 but at Llanerfyl. Father Evan, mother Catherine, found in 1841 at 'Llanerful' HO107/1438 BK 5 ED 9 FOLIO 18 pg 7.
There are few Evan Roberts born around 1830 give or take a year on the censuses for that area. Again, struggling to piece together the parishes, could do with a big old map to study! I can't find if Llanerfyl parish covered Llanwyddn! How likely is it that this is the correct baptism?
These places seem so close to each others boundaries I don't know if I should be on the Montgomeryshire board here. Very confused now! :'( :-[ :-\ >:(
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Gadget, I just joked around cuz you mentioned the multiple Roberts......never meant as an insult.... :) UR the best.... :-*
Speaking of which, C.C. you already have some of the best of the lot working on this already...not including me, of course...becuz I just am a fly on the wall enjoying the read... but if you start a new thread it might get even more confusing...
What say the rest ?....J.J.
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Hi CC
Llanerfyl and Llanwddyn are two separate parishes. I'll try and put the map link up:
Click Here (http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|llanerfyl#t=l&map=52.6755,-3.429|11|4&loc=GB:52.6755:-3.429:13|llanerfyl|Llanerfyl,%20Powys)
Genuki pages for the parishes:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MGY/Llanerfyl/index.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MGY/Llanwddyn/index.html
FHO is pretty good and cheap if you have lots of ancestors in one or other of the counties that it covers.
Gadget
PS - JJ - I was joking ;D
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Thanks Gadget, it's all becoming much clearer. I was jumping the gun a bit there but you know when your on a roll, just can't help it.
They not far from each other at all. Thanks again ;)
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Sonia
Our Welsh ancesters seem to have inhabited the same places in Denbighshire, Merionethshire and Montgomeryshire, even Canada and, possibly, Scotland ;) . I've not met anyone before with such a shared heritage.
Do you have any Shropshire links :)
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
Do you mean little 'ol me? ;)
No Shropshire links, is Staffs close enough?
Steph :)
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Miriam Lloyd and John Holmes - same page - marriage - Ruthin, June quarter, 1866, Vol 11b Page 621
:D :D :D
Is this the marriage you think may be at Llandegla , I am going to WXM museum soon and Llangegla PRs are on microfilm, if you can confirm , then I`ll have a look see for you.
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Hi wilcoxin :)
Llandegla was in the Ruthin registration district:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/RegDistricts/index.html#RegRuthin
so........
Gadget
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Hi folks,
Yes it's the one thanks Wilcoxon. I'm sure you'll have lots to do of your own without finding my lot!
You know what's curious is that she didn't seem to have any children with John Holmes, maybe was a bit too late. Still don't know if it was hearsay that Zechariah had two biblical named brothers, Emmanuel definately is one........who's the other?
Oooo and there's a postal strike!! >:( >:( >:(
Was hoping to get Zechariah's birth certificate back. Can hardly wait now!!
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Oooh, phoooey...rotton posties!
Yeah...looked and looked for the biblical names...There are plenty of Davids....perhaps it was one as simple as that...You'll get round to it once the puzzle pieces together... :P J.J.
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Yeah J.J. I know, you've been so good searching hard there. It's the mysterious missing census syndrome again. Soooo frustrating. (Though Gadget came up trumps with the other line ;D). Don't you feel like you've lost a piece out of your jigsaw? Pity there were no Lloyd names on Zechariah's marriage cert, but then Emmanuel was in Llandrillo (am I getting the hang of this yet?), so maybe there never was another brother at all. Be so interesting to see who Emmanuel's father was. All in good time ;)
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At Last, after weeks of waiting patiently, Zecheriah's birth certificate!
born - 1 Oct 1859 Pen y graig Llantysilio district of Corwen - mother Miriam Lloyd (x) no father's name or occupation.
Where's that then folks? Is it on the 1861 census? Back on the trail........
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Well, it's in the parish that I have found them in so...and pen y graig means head of the rock* - I'm just having a look at my local maps. i think it might be on the 1861 unless it's one of those missing EDs.
Gadget
*It could be somwhere on the Horseshoe Pass or high up on llantysilio Mountain itself.
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The only places that I can find so far are Graig Farm and close by is Graig Covert (probably for pheasant shoots). These are north of Pentredwr on the hills called Cyrn y brain just south of Llandegla. The Llantysilio Parish goes quite a way north.
Gadget
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Hi, great stuff Gadget.....thanks for the translation too. Certainly seems a remote area by your description. I think it might be one of the missing ED's but I going through what's available again just in case I've missed something, now you have given me a better idea of where to look.
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a close-up map
http://wrexham.gov.uk/assets/pdfs/public_rights_of_way/notice_dmmo_llanrural_map.pdf
use the plus sign to enlarge area...http://www.activitywales.com/map.asp?providerid=3193
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Hi "Coffee Cup"
I'm not sure you're even still on here as it says 2007 when you were having these chats and it's now 2015. Some news! John Holmes & Miriam did have a child but Miriam was 44 at that time. She was called Margaretta Anne and she was my great-grandmother on the paternal side. My dad is still alive and he's 85 soon. I've had one heck of a struggle finding out anything about John and Miriam so that's why I just did a google search. I've come into this conversation blind so not sure what your connection is, but clearly it's on Miriam's side. I'm new to this ancestry search but I've bought my great grandmother's birth cert and Mother is Miriam Holmes (formerly Lloyd) and father is John Holmes. My granddad was Margaretta's son. Hope this helps and would be great to hear from you or anyone else still searching. Btw, I'm still in North Wales.
Cheers
FS07
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Awe, so sorry, as coffee cup signed in as a guest and never posted any more queries, so we don't even have a way to contact them as inactive users can't be messaged. ( One has to have at least two posts, ) adding: Not sure why there is no access to the message system for coffecup as there are several posts...
Welcome to Rootschat, however, Familysearcher07...Now you'd said you were having trouble find some things on the family so you can snag this thread and ask more questions on here, or read up on the site, beginners info available see link below, and delve in with a thread of you own.
Here is advice...don't post there though...http://www.rootschat.com/forum/how-to-use-rootschat/
all the best, J.J.
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Hi Familysearcher07,
Welcome to RootsChat. I am very sorry but coffee cup requested that we delete the profile we have no records or way of contacting them now.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi all
I see it's some years since this exchange happened so hope you're still around. I am Miriam Lloyd's great great grand-daughter. Her daughter Margaretta Ann was my great grandmother and Margaretta's son, John William Holmes was my paternal grandfather.
I'm yet to work out all that's been said in the trail but let me tell you what I know. Miriam had 4 children in total, John Roberts (about whom I can't find out anything) and then Emmanuel and Zachariah. All were born illegitimately but then in 1866 she married John Holmes, hence my great great grandmother taking the legitimate name of Holmes. She had a son prior to my grandad but that was also illegitimate and he died as a young child (born 1889 and died 1890 and also called Zechariah). Margaretta was in service in Llangollen and that's where she conceived my grandad. They lived there until he was 18 and then they moved to Rhyl on the coast.
My suspicions, albeit possibly unfounded, are that grandad's father was a Joseph Davies of Salop, Oswestry, Shropshire. Only he and she were in service in the house in 1891 at 34 Regent St, Llangollen, LL20 8HW. The house still stands. My grandfather was born 1892. Margaretta never married and had a tough life. She died in 1934 vol 11B page 357 of the England Wales death index 1916-2007. She is buried in Rhyl with my aunt (Glenys) who died as a child of meningitus.
Re Miriam, as stated she did marry John Holmes but from what I can gather, he died very shortly after Margaretta's birth, hence Miriam in 1871 in the census living with her mother Margaret now aged 89, her 2 sons Zachariah and Emmanuel and 4 year old Margaretta Ann.
I would love to hear from any distant relatives so hope this is picked up. My dad (Noel Holmes) is 85 and he is the son of John William. I am putting together both of my parents family histories on ancestry.
Best regards
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Hello Familysearcher07,
Welcome back to RootsChat :)
As coffeecup is no longer contactable it maybe worth you starting off you own new topic on your family. If you wish I am able to split off your last reply as a new topic for you.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hi Sarah
Thank you - any help would be much appreciated as am feeling my feet a little. I've tried sending pm to 2 on here and they say they're sent but no sign in my messages. Confused! If you can include Gadget and Hiraeth in the new post that would be great?
Kind regards
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Hi
Just got your PM.
I'm busy this afternoon but will try and read through the thread tonight.
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget
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Think I might have some good news~
I noticed in a Jackson thread of coffeecup's that I'd asked her for an e-mail so that I could send her some documents. I've just spent ages looking through my e-mail contacts and had nearly gave up when I decided to look through my sent e-mails for 2007 - and lo and behold, I found her.
I'll send an e-mail to her, linking to this thread and hope I can get a reply.
Fingers crossed!
Gadget
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Oh wow - thank you so much!! Feel dreadful putting you to so much work but much appreciated and fingers crossed.
I'm currently trying to locate the John Holmes that Miriam Lloyd married in 1866 and who was father to their daughter, Margaretta Ann (my great grandmother). I have absolutely nothing to go on other than the marriage certificate which I'm going to order.
It's too obsessive this roots searching!! ;D
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I think there's something about him in the above pages - Paul found something and so did WRJones.
I'll go check to se if I can work out a place of birth for him - think it was difficult to read, if my memory is correct.
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Here's the quote from Paul:
Offline Paul
I'll check if this marriage is Llandegla or Ruthin ( I had both index's out at the same time)
June 4 1866.
John Holmes. full age. bachelor. Hawker. Pont??ygt?. Father, William. Deceased.
Miriam Lloyd(X). Spinster. Llandegla. Father, John. Deceased.
Witnesses. J G Humphries and ??????Owen.
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North Wales BMD has it as Llandegla, St Tecla
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Yes - found them a while ago. Been looking, unfortunately the 1866 for Llandegla aren't on line.
Only clue is the Hawker WR found on the 1861 b. Hereford.
(we need Paul, again!)
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Hi yes John Holmes was definitely a hawker as it states this on Margaretta Ann's birth certificate that I've already got. As for the marriage of Miriam and John all I know from the records index is that it's Miriam Lloyd and John Holmes - marriage - Ruthin, June quarter, 1866, Vol 11b Page 621 but I have no idea where I need to go to look this up?
I'm not too sure where Llandegla is and Ruthin seems quite a way from Llangollen, but maybe that's just where the marriages were recorded as against being the place of marriage?
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But 1861 isn't right as Miriam gave birth to Margaretta (John Holmes daughter) in 1866
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Informtation about Llandegla.
Marriage Ref is ~ Ruthin, Quarter 2, 1866, Vol 11b, p 621
I think that Paul got most of it apart from where John was living at the time.
Gadget
(I think WR was looking for a John Holmes, hawker, and found one on the 1861 census. )
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But 1861 isn't right as Miriam gave birth to Margaretta (John Holmes daughter) in 1866
Births Mar 1867 Holmes Margaretta Anne . Corwen .
If you can find John Holmes death, then at least we can see how old he was.
There`s nothing close to Corwen district on Free BMD, but at least it gives ages.
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Re Miriam, as stated she did marry John Holmes but from what I can gather, he died very shortly after Margaretta's birth, hence Miriam in 1871 in the census living with her mother Margaret now aged 89, her 2 sons Zachariah and Emmanuel and 4 year old Margaretta Ann.
I can`t find this census, where are they living. Where were they born?
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Found them now. Still in the same area.
1871 RG10/5682/29 pg 2-3 Vron Cottage Llangar Cymmo Corwen Merionethshire.
Margreat Lloyd head widow age 89 born Bettws Denbighshire
Meriam Lloyd 40 daug Denbighshire
Emanuel Lloyd 18 son "
Zacaria Lloyd 14 son "
Margreat Lloyd 4 daug (no occupations mentioned)
1851 HO107/2509/375 pg 9 Vron Llantysilio township of Cymmo Corwen Denbighshire.
Ann Lloyd head widow 89 pauper born Denbighshire
Margaret 66 daug unmarried charwoman born Bettws
John 64 son pauper unmarried born Denbighshire
Mariam 24 unmarried daug at home "
John Roberts son 2
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;D
Think there's a danger of going round in circles - this from coffecup's first posting on this thread:
Can anyone help me find more information about the family of Zechariah Lloyd born 1859 around Llantysilio Corwen area please? What I have found as follows;
He married Mary Ann Roberts in 1880 at St John Rhosymedre. In 1881 they lived at 7 Queen St Ruabon with his step daug Ann Roberts aged 2.
1871 RG10/5682/29 pg 2-3 Vron Cottage Llangar Cymmo Corwen Merionethshire.
Margreat Lloyd head widow age 89 born Bettws Denbighshire
Meriam Lloyd 40 daug Denbighshire
Emanuel Lloyd 18 son "
Zacaria Lloyd 14 son "
Margreat Lloyd 4 daug (no occupations mentioned)
1851 HO107/2509/375 pg 9 Vron Llantysilio township of Cymmo Corwen Denbighshire.
Ann Lloyd head widow 89 pauper born Denbighshire
Margaret 66 daug unmarried charwoman born Bettws
John 64 son pauper unmarried born Denbighshire
Mariam 24 unmarried daug at home "
John Roberts son 2
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I was trying to imagine the abode for John Holmes as transcribed and could only come up with:-
Pontcysyllte,Pontblyddyn,Pontybodkin(?) and possibly Pentre Halkyn.
(It could of course be an individual dwelling,not a town.village)
The latter led me to a couple of records that had me wondering....
In 1871 there is a Wm Holmes,hawker,born 1815 in Chapel Street,Holywell,just given as born Flintshire,and though I can't connect them there is also
John Holmes in Whitford Street,Holywell,born 1825 Bangor is y coed,a horse dealer(I think),but married.
I don't suppose he could be the father,married bigamously,then disappeared back to his family(as no death record can be found)?
(Apologies to the families concerned if this is just fantasy!)
Regards
Roger
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I had thought that, it`s not unknown, but this John must have been quick to have time for hanky panky with Miriam. Reading a lot about him in the papers, I don`t think it`s him. :(
John Holmes of Whitford St Holywell died 22 Sept 1908. BMD aged 83. Probate to John Holmes farmer . Effects £6262.
1851 Holywell
John Holmes 26 b Bangor
Rachel 25
Methusalah 8 b Caergwrle
George 15 m b Wrexham
1861 Whitford St.
John Holms Marine store dealer b Cawgurley, Denbighshire
Rachael Holms
7 children between 14 and 1.
1871 Whitford St Holywell
John Holmes 45 marine stores dealer b Bangor on Dee
Rachel wife b Delamere Forest.
He had children born in Caergwrle and Holywell
Rachel died 1874.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4589296/4589300/13/
1873 John Holmes of Holywell owner of 2 houses in Caergwrle, summoned for have no privy to his houses
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4588873/4588879/42/
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I thought it would be an extremely long shot.He seemed to have a penchant for the odd biblical name as well.
I think your interpretation as "marine store dealer" is the correct one,though his son,alsoJohn,appeared to be a horse dealer.
Regards
Roger
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The defendant offered the brass for sale to Mr John Holmes, marine store dealer, Holywell, who refused to buy it, and information having been given to the policethe defendant left the district, and, in company with a friend, booked at Liverpool for America by a steamer which sailed on Monday.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4592008/4592016/59/
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Hi Familysearcher07 and all, I have just happened to find this link via a google search. Cast your mind back bit and I'm a Jackson from Penycae, related to 'Coffeecup' (My second cousin).
The infamous 'Mariam' is my 3x Great-grandmother. I have completed quite a bit of my tree but this Lloyd line has rather a lot of.... unmarried children ;). It's really interesting to see Mariam further have a daughter and built another family line!!! If it wasn't for her I wouldn't be here, haha!
I did have contact a few years back with Coffeecup but I think it would be great to catch up with her. I am currently trying to look through this thread to make some sense and build up the tree from what information was found...ten years ago!!!!!
If you have any further info Familysearch on Mariams parents etc, I would love to know.
Best regards
Three chimneys